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Mishal Husain: But, in the need for that constructive engagement isn't there also the issue of rising anti-Americanism in Latin America that could be a real problem in getting to that constructive dialogue? In this time of economic discontent, many people blame the United States for their problems.
Jorge Castañeda: Very clearly electorates have moved, I wouldn't say to the left, but have moved toward a more strident anti-American stance. This doesn't necessarily mean that governments have moved in that direction. If one looks at recently elected governments in Latin America, which one could have thought would engage on a path of more anti-American, anti-neoliberal reform, antidemocratic attitudes, it hasn't been the case. The best example, of course, is the Lula [Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva] administration in Brazil, but also the [Lucio] Gutierrez administration in Ecuador. In neither of these two cases, regardless of what electorates thought they were voting for, has it happened. And, in fact, President Lula of Brazil today perhaps enjoys one of the best relationships of any of his colleagues in Latin America with President George W. Bush.
Mishal Husain: But isn't that dangerous in itself that if the electorates thought they were voting in these leaders on one basis and they don't get what they thought they were getting, then the next time they're going to rebel against it?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, but it's a long discussion because we don't really know what the electorates were expecting specifically on this issue. There are many people who will say that in Brazil the reason Lula won in the first place, this time as opposed to his three previous defeats, was that he moved to the center, that he moved to more moderate, less anti-globalization, less radical stances on many issues. Other people believe that, on the contrary, he won because he took a very firm stand, and has subsequently moved away from that stand. I tend to believe the first explanation, but certainly the second one is out there.
Mishal Husain: But there is still this shift to the left, you wouldn't deny that, would you? I mean, obviously there's Gutierrez, there's Lula, but there's also Hugo Chávez in Venezuela, and Evo Morales in Bolivia almost became the president.
Jorge Castañeda: Well, I think these are separate cases. I think the case of Lula and Gutierrez clearly are signals sent by the electorate that they want something different, that they are unsatisfied with what has happened over the previous eight years in Brazil, many more years in Ecuador, that they're seeking something different. And these are two intelligent candidates who said I'm going to look for something different, I'm not sure exactly what it is, and I'm certainly not going to do anything to create counterproductive damage to the economy, but I'll look for something.
The case of Chávez is very different, he reached power that way, but what he has done since is something I don't think any electorate would particularly approve of and certainly was not what people in Venezuela were expecting. And the case of Evo Morales is a very, of course, interesting one because he did so well in the presidential elections, because he represents a true popular movement. But between that and actually reaching government, I think there is still a way to go.
Mishal Husain: Is that crop of leftist or perhaps center-leftist leaders, though, something for the United States to worry about, and certainly in the context of the history of how much the United States has feared leftist movements in Latin America?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, I think that it should not fear them. And I think that during the first years of the Chávez administration in Venezuela when it coincided with the Clinton administration in the United States, there was a very moderate sensible attitude on the part of Washington not to provoke, not to confront, not to anathemize. And I think in the case of the Bush administration that has also been the policy toward Brazil and toward Ecuador. I think though so far, with the exception perhaps of the Bush administration's attitude toward Chávez, which is only one of four examples we're talking about, I think that actually the United States has not confronted them and does not fear them and is understanding that these are the types of adjustments and changes that have to take place in Latin America after too many years of growing inequality of economic stagnation, of unfulfilled promises of economic reform and of democracy.
If you have democracy people sometimes vote in ways that others don't like. Well that's what it's all about, and I think the United States should be very respectful of that, and I must say in the cases that we've seen, particularly in the case of Lula in Brazil, the Bush administration has been very constructive.
Mishal Husain: You've spoken about Latin America being a lost continent in a sense. Doesn't that perpetuate a negative image of the region, one of which is seen as a problem?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, it does and it's a bit unfair, although I think it does characterize the feelings, the sentiment, that many Latin Americans have of our situation in the world, of our situation in history of the last century or two, or even four or five centuries. On the other hand, I think it's perhaps a false notion because of what we can contribute in the international community. The problem is we really haven't found our place, our niche so to speak, in the world, in the globalized world of today. Clearly, one enormous contribution that Latin America makes systematically is what [Gabriel] García Márquez has called our most important card, which is what I could call our cultural productivity. We continue to churn out writers, painters, singers, composers, dancers, movie directors in a way that very few other regions of the world at comparable levels of development are able to do.
This is clearly one area where we have a lot to work on because it's the area of our greatest potential. Clearly, also Latin America would be able to play a much greater role in the future than it has done in the past in constructing a new world legal order. We are, in a sense, the middle class of the globalized world. We are not yet part of the rich, developed countries of the North Atlantic, Japan, Australia, but we are way ahead in development terms of all of Africa and parts or most of Asia. In a sense, we're this middle class. And since we are this middle class, this is probably the area of a new international legal order where we can most contribute because we have an interest in building a strong legal order. But at the same time we are sufficiently not yet developed so that what we say is representative of what used to be called the third world, perhaps no longer is.
Mishal Husain: When you think about Latin America's relationship with the United States, is there a danger at all that the continent is defined by that very relationship? That so much has to do with the back and forth with the United States, that without a constructive engagement in a sense it's a continent adrift?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, it depends on the countries. This is certainly the case of México, Central America, the Caribbean and probably countries like Colombia and Venezuela. It is perhaps the case of countries like Ecuador, Perú, and Bolivia. It is not really the case of countries like Brazil, Argentina, Chile, and Uruguay, who have diversified trade ties with Europe and with Asia and where the American presence, while very important -- we've seen it in history the way Allende was overthrown in 1973, the enormous importance of the United States in subsequent events in Argentina from the time of Peron onward etc. -- but still less so. So I think it's not quite a uniform situation across the region.
Mishal Husain: So it depends on who can stand on their own two feet in a way.
Jorge Castañeda: Well all these countries can stand on their own two feet, but sometimes they have to stand on their own two feet facing the United States. And, on other occasions, they can every now and again face Europe, they can every now and then face Asia, Japan in particular. It really depends very much on each country. What is clear is that it seems difficult for Latin America to really thrive without a constructive relationship with the United States. The opposite of the old interventionist and hostile relationship with the United States or of U.S. policy in Latin America is not "no relationship," it's a constructive relationship. That is what has to be built.
Mishal Husain: How do you make that a mutually beneficial relationship a relationship of mutual respect because the perception is it's something of a one-way street, Latin America has more to get out it than the United States does?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, we don't think so, for example in the case of México, President Fox -- we thought, he and I, that the United States had as much to gain from an immigration agreement which would have been a historical breakthrough, not only in U.S.-Mexican relations, but in third world-first world relations. But, the U.S. had as much to gain, if not more, for legalizing Mexicans in the United States and from legalizing the flow of Mexicans to the United States over the next 10 or 15 years. We thought that this was a win-win situation where we were not getting more than the U.S. was. And, as a matter of fact, the Bush administration's initial receptiveness to this idea showed that we were right in principle even if we were not able to put it into practice as soon as we wanted to.
Mishal Husain: But beyond the special case of México?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, we think this is also true for many other Latin American countries. United States has a huge stake in Latin America in terms of trade, in terms of investment, in terms of immigration flows, in terms of dangers, drugs, terrorism, corruption, etc., plague, illness. In other words, the regions are so interconnected through so many ways, that this is not just something where Latin America has to gain and the U.S. is indifferent. Clearly, the size of the U.S. economy is such that one cannot expect that an agreement, the trade agreement between Chile and the United States that's just been signed, will effect the U.S. economy, whereas it will affect the Chilean economy for better or for worse. That's a fact. But if you look at the region as a whole and you look at history as a whole and you look at the future as the whole, I think both areas have as much to gain from a constructive relationship with each other, as the other.
Mishal Husain: In this process of trying to work toward a constructive dialogue for the future, what role do you think the indigenous movements like the one in Bolivia that we saw in the film have?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, I think they have a very important role to play because they represent an important sector of society which under democratic rule is inevitably perhaps more present and active, on occasion strident, than before. Secondly, an important role to play because of the specific issues that they can, on occasion, be linked to -- natural resources, coca leaf and drugs, on occasion immigration. Certainly for those reasons also, they have a very important role to play. It is not an easy transition from being radical, very oppressed movements to adopting a more moderate, cautious, and "reasonable" attitude toward globalization.
The transition is very difficult. The Workers Party in Brazil under Lula has clearly carried out that transition. It is not clear that every anti-globalization, anti-establishment, indigenous peoples' movement in Latin America can carry it out that quickly. But certainly the role that these movements will play is very important. And it's very important for the United States and for the rest of the Latin American establishment to engage these movements in a constructive dialogue also.
Mishal Husain: What do you think are the biggest things that Americans misunderstand about Latin America?
Jorge Castañeda: I think they misunderstand two fundamental issues. One is that the degree of inequality in Latin America is such that everything is affected by it. The poor feel much more excluded than they do in the United States. The rich are much more detached from society and life than they are in the United States. The middle class is much smaller and much more alienated from the rich and the poor than it is in the United States. The United States does not understand on most occasions the extent to which inequality in Latin America really taints absolutely everything. That's one.
And the other is that, yes, Latin Americans have a tendency, we have a tendency to focus more on history than on the future. Perhaps Brazil is an exception there because of the non-Spanish but Portuguese heritage, which is slightly different in that sense. But the rest of Latin America, yes, we have an obsession with history. Yes, we have an obsession with the past. Yes, history plays somewhat the role in our countries that the rule of law and respect for the law plays in the United states -- that is, in countries that do not have the social, cultural, religious, linguistic, homogeneity that countries of Western Europe have, for example, and that we're the same as the United States. But for us, history is the root, history is what makes things happen, what gives us a sense of belonging to the same country. In the same way that in the United States, history is not that but the rule of law, for example, is.
So I think there is a certain American frustration with the Latin American obsession with history and there's a Latin American misunderstanding and irritation with United States inability to understand how important history is for many in Latin America.
Mishal Husain: Now you've been in government and there are obviously many challenges facing Latin America's leaders, but I want to put to you one poll of 17 countries that was conducted in Latin America. It found that people have more faith in the Roman Catholic Church, in television, and in the armed forces than in their presidents, their police, and their judiciary. Now how do you combat a perception like that?
Jorge Castañeda: Well, you have to keep on building democracy in Latin America. It is not a local construct, it is something which is taking root slowly and painfully. And it takes a long time to develop the credibility and the faith in these institutions that are necessary.
Mishal Husain: But people don't have that kind of patience.
Jorge Castañeda: Yes they do. First of all they do, unfortunately -- sometimes one would want them not to have that kind of patience. But the fact is that there has been a great deal of respect for democratic rule in Latin America over the last 15 years. On occasion under very adverse circumstances like in Argentina, like in Colombia, like in Venezuela, that despite economic crises the institutions survive, that elections take place and new presidents are elected, and there is a certain amount of confidence in them. So I think your polls like that are indicative of an attitude, unquestionably, but one should not draw dramatic consequences from those attitudes, which are real. But the consequences are perhaps less immediate and less imminent than one might think.
Mishal Husain: But I suppose the challenge is that democracy is about much more than holding elections?
Jorge Castañeda: It's about generating confidence in institutions like the police, like the judiciary, like presidents, clearly that is an enormous challenge in Latin America. Clearly, older institutions like the church or the armed forces or institutions that are very new but are pervasive, like television, generate more confidence. Yes, that is a fact. It is simply a reflection of the novelty of democratic rule in Latin America, which is all the more reason to defend it.
Mishal Husain: Jorge Castañeda, thanks very much for joining us on WIDE ANGLE.
Jorge Castañeda: Thank you, Mishal.
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Jorge Castañeda, México's Minister for Foreign Affairs from 2000 to 2003
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