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August 26, 2004: Fawaz Gerges, professor of International Affairs and Middle Eastern Studies at Sarah Lawrence College, and author of the forthcoming book THE JIHADISTS: UNHOLY WARRIORS, discusses secularism in France and how it impacts the Muslim community with host Mishal Husain.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Dr. Gerges welcome to WIDE ANGLE. The veil is a very current issue in France at the moment. School's just about to start and this ban on headscarves will come into effect. Why is it that France sees a need for a law on this at this point?
FAWAZ GERGES: I think one point must be made very clear: secularism is the official ideology of the French republic. The ethos of secularism inspire and inform political life in France. Let's take the United States, for example, the American system institutionalizes the separation between the sacred and the political but it does not dismiss or discriminate against, you might say, the religious imagination. The French system obviously does and I think the decision to ban the veil is more of a secular fundamentalist decision. This tells you about the nature of the French republic.
MISHAL HUSAIN: So would you say that the French state feels threatened by the veil?
FAWAZ GERGES: I think the decision to ban the veil and the debate, the ongoing debate, masks a bigger concern. I think the veil itself is the tip of the iceberg. The French political class is worried about the so-called Islamization and ghettoization of the Muslim community. And in particular the French right and the French center basically fears that conservative Muslims are trying to create an authentic Muslim community. They're trying to Islamicize the Muslim community in France, and prevent the community from being fully integrated in the social fabric of France.
MISHAL HUSAIN: And would they see something like the headscarf then as the first step --
FAWAZ GERGES: Absolutely
MISHAL HUSAIN: Along a dangerous road?
FAWAZ GERGES: And this is really what we need. We need to contextualize the decision to ban the veil within a broader strategy on the part of the French ruling class. I think it's a first step in a long and risky strategy. Using state power in order to undermine the influence of conservative Muslims on the community, and also to roll back the conservative Islamist tie. This is really the strategy. The veil is the tip of the iceberg. It masks bigger concerns on the part of the ruling class in France.
MISHAL HUSAIN: One of the things we see in France is the fact that the young people seem to be much more religious than their parents -- some of the young women for instance, wearing veils that their mothers never did. Why do we see that happening?
FAWAZ GERGES: I think it's assertion of identity; it's assertion of culture. It's a return to the roots as one French young Muslim man said [in the film]. And I think this is very natural. Also I would argue that the world situation is highly volatile. There's a perception that Islam and Muslims are under attack. There's the so-called war on terrorism -- the invasion and occupation of Iraq. I think all these factors contribute to the assertion or reassertion of their identity. They want to go back to their roots, discover their past.
MISHAL HUSAIN: So why more of a return to the religious roots rather than the countries that their parents came from?
FAWAZ GERGES: Let's remember that Islam represents the most vital and comprehensive identity in the Arab and Muslim world. If you ask any particular Muslim, it's not just their religion. Islam is a compressive set of ideas that encompass the social, political, and the personal. And when you say assertion of identity -- it's an Islamic identity. This is one of the most powerful drives for Muslims everywhere including Muslim communities in Europe and the United States. And as the Muslim French woman [in the film] put it, "if I am asked to choose between my religion and my country I will choose my religion, Islam." This tells you about how Islam plays a highly important role in Muslims lives. And because it's a comprehensive religion it encompasses every aspect of life including the social, the political, the cultural Islam. Identities highly in flux are highly complex. We live in a highly globalized world. Cultures are in flux. France is a great country. The French culture is a great one. France is a very vibrant democracy. It should not fear the assertion of local identities by some of its people. Actually this is to France's credit that some of its people and minorities feel that they are French, but at the same time they want to be true to their religions and their cultures and all their identities.
MISHAL HUSAIN: And yet what we see in the film is that not everyone feels French. That there ... that there is an element of Muslim society which feels disenfranchised, which feels isolated. How does the government deal with that?
FAWAZ GERGES: Absolutely. This is why the question is: Do you legislate to deal with the cultural aspects such as the veil or the headscarf? Or do you really focus on the practical, real issues that lie at the heart of marginalization and exclusion? I would argue that the reason why many Muslims in France feel excluded and feel not part of the system, feel more Muslim than French, is because they are excluded, they are unemployed, they are marginalized. This is not to suggest you won't have some people who will stay all their lives in France and feel they're not French. That's normal. The big question on the table is the following: you can help to integrate the bulk of the community by helping to close the gap -- the socio-economic and political gap -- that exists between the Muslim community in France and other main stream communities.
MISHAL HUSAIN: But if you end up with a community that perhaps is in danger of being radicalized, what are the dangers in that?
FAWAZ GERGES: Common sense tells us that [when] you have unemployment, exclusion, alienation, and marginalization -- these are the terrible, horrible, dangerous stuff in militancy and extremism. It's not just the employment [issue] -- it's alienation and marginalization. And I think what lies at the heart of the problem here is that you have so many young Muslim men who feel excluded and marginalized and, as a result, they tend to be radicalized and estranged. And there's a fear here, a real fear exists, that they would drift away towards militancy and extremism. Many young Frenchmen, British, young Muslim men, and German as well, and others in the 1980's and 1990's went to Afghanistan and joined the mujahadeen to fight first against the Soviets and then of course they turn their guns against the United States. So there is a real danger here that the further alienation and marginalization and exclusion of many members of the French community could have some serious security considerations and repercussions in France and beyond.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Including actually increasing the risk of terrorism? Is that what you think?
FAWAZ GERGES: I don't know whether it will increase the risk of terrorism but I fear that if history is a guide that common sense tells us that this particular rage would likely manifest itself in highly volatile and dangerous practices. Terrorism is one manifestation of further alienation.
MISHAL HUSAIN: There's also a danger with this perception of the issue, isn't there? Many Muslims would say that they don't want to be seen as synonymous with a problem or synonymous with terrorism?
FAWAZ GERGES: Absolutely. Let's remember that unfortunately after 9-11 now we see everything through the lens of terrorism. What we're talking about here, really it's a minor issue. It's not a real issue here, but there is a danger and the sense [that a] danger exists because you have the American war on terrorism. You have the invasion and occupation of Iraq. You have the ban against the veil. You have other steps taken by French, British, and German governments. All these factors could basically coalesce ... converge to produce a major problem. And here I want to suggest that the French decision is very contagious. You have local authorities in Germany who now have passed legislations in order to prevent teachers from wearing the veil in German schools even though Chancellor Schroeder is against these local decisions. And it seems now the tendency in Europe -- in Spain, in Germany, in Britain, in France is to legislate more to deal with the question of security and restrict the personal freedoms of Muslims further. In this particular sense, Mishal, I think the bombing in Madrid served as a wake up call for European governments in order to deal with this mental, political Islam. Unfortunately, by not dealing with the root causes, socio-economic and political alienation, but rather by restricting the personal freedoms of Muslims and restricting Muslim immigration. And these acts and steps in Germany, in Spain, in England, and in France could basically fuel political Islam and increase and intensify militancy and extremism.
MISHAL HUSAIN: So if there are such big issues at stake what do you make of the view we have from the French politician in the film. He says that he thinks this is something that could lead to a civil war even?
FAWAZ GERGES: I don't believe that. I think this is a highly inflated statement. I don't think we're talking about civil war here. I think we're talking about a highly intense, vehement debate taking place in French society. And again, to reiterate, France is a highly vibrant democracy. And so far the debate has been channeled through institutional mechanisms. Let's hope this particular debate remains channeled through institutions and does not go underground. The danger lies in the fact you asked me about radicalism -- the danger lies in the fact that when your position basically gets used and abused by fringe militant movements or it goes underground. As long as the French government and French institutions absorb and allow Muslims to express their views, and listen to Muslims and deal with their complaints and grievances I don't think we're going to see any major civil war or any major security problem in France. Let's remember here the decision to ban the veil is just one element in a highly complex and volatile situation. I would argue that the war on terrorism and the invasion and the occupation of Iraq have much more insidious effects on the question of terrorism and the security of the west than banning the veil. Banning the veil, you might say, just complicates the process. It adds highly volatile cultural factors into a dangerous political situation. That's what it does. On its own it's not a big issue but if you basically add it to what's happening and the world situation, it basically complicates, exasperates, it widens the cultural gulf between the east and the west.
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Fawaz Gerges, professor of International Affairs and Middle Eastern Studies at Sarah Lawrence College
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