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FAWAZ GERGES: What's happening in the United States now is an entirely different situation -- the question of security. The entire Muslim community in the United States now appears to have become suspect in the eyes of their fellow Americans. The arrest of hundreds of Muslims in the aftermaths of 9-11, the regulations in the United States, the practices on daily basis, and I think the community itself, feels a sense of pain, powerlessness, and shock as a result of the situation after 9-11. And I think what we need to understand here is that the earthquake of 9-11 and its aftershocks have shaken the very foundation of the Muslim community in the United States. In the sense now that the community feels as besieged, as on the defensive, as its counterparts in France, in Germany, in Britain because of the so-called war on terrorism ... because the community appears to have become suspect in the eyes of their fellow Americans. And here I want to go beyond this particular question to say that the Arab and Muslim community in the United States is the only community that is a fair game to racist commentary in the United States now. It feels vulnerable. You can say anything about Arabs and Muslims in the United States and get away with it. This does not happen in Europe. And this is again a testament to the complex nature of the debate in Europe. So it's not really all a rosy picture in the United States here. Let's remember that 9-11 hammered a deadly nail in the idea of integrating the Muslim community in the United States. So while the American system respects and tolerates and guarantees the overt expression of religious differences, 9-11 and its aftershocks have really done a great deal of damage to the Muslim community and their role and their existence in the United States.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Let's talk about the people that we meet in the film and the stories that we see from them. There are many faces of Islam and France that we see, from Manal who wears the headscarf, to Besma who you know would never do that. How do you think the French state should deal with the reality of a multi-ethnic France today and a multi-religious France today?
FAWAZ GERGES: One point must be made very clear, and thanks for your question. I think neither Muslims nor France is a monolith. Let's remember that the idea -- we talk about Muslims, about the French, I think it's very misleading. And I think it's essential for us to make distinctions, as you said, nuances, instead of talking about the French republic as I have been doing myself. We should be talking about political groups, social groups, class interests, ideological interests. Let's remember, I mean many French men and women ... French women basically have opposed the decision ... the French left, human rights organizations, progressives. So it's not just all the French who support the decision.
MISHAL HUSAIN: So broadly, something like 70 percent of the people in France support the idea today of banning the veil?
FAWAZ GERGES: Yes, Absolutely. But France is not a monolith. There's a debate taking place. It's a vibrant, highly democratic society. But yes, absolutely. Your documentary shows the complexity of French society and the complexity of the Muslim community in France itself. Why not talk to Muslim girls and women? Why not allow them to express their own sentiments to dress whatever they want. But I basically subscribe to the idea that the debate over the veil is the tip of the iceberg. The bigger issues are outside the debate and unfortunately I think the French republic is going about it the wrong way. And I think again, since we're talking about French politics, I don't think we can understand President Chirac's decision to ban the veil, except within the context [that] he's trying to please the right and the center. The right and the center in France, which are basically terrified by, you might say, the overt expression of Islamization in France, because these particular sentiments, in the eyes of the right and the center, threaten the French way of life. So again there is tremendous politics buried under the surface and we must basically understand the politics behind the decision.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Tremendous politics clearly, but aren't the ideals of the French state at stake if you have French citizens growing up like Manal, who says very clearly in the film, my religion means much more to me than the French state or being French. I mean these are really issues to address. The veil may be just a symbol but there is a real issue there.
FAWAZ GERGES: Absolutely. I think there are real issues -- not just in France, in England, in Germany, and the United States itself -- the question of integration. How do you really help integrate minorities, not just the Muslim communities? And I think the debate over the veil in France also raises the question of the future of Muslim minorities in Europe and the United States. And the question is how do we help to the Muslim communities to integrate in Europe and the United States? Do we help this particular process by forcing the issues, by legislating, instead of focusing on the ideological aspects, that is, the veil itself. Provide more educational opportunities, more employment opportunities, opening up the system, integrating the rising numbers of young unemployed young men? Let's remember unemployment among Muslim ... young Muslims in France is almost 30 percent.
MISHAL HUSAIN: So you think the big economic issue should come first?
FAWAZ GERGES: Oh absolutely. The socio-economic and political issues must come first. Just talk to the French and see young men who are unemployed and they tell you they are being excluded. They are being discriminated against, marginalized, unemployed. They cannot find a job. This really lies at the heart of the crisis of Muslim monitories in Europe. And when you tackle the socio-economic situation then it's much easier to tackle the ideological aspect -- that is, the veil and the Islamization -- because this is an ideological issue. It's not a socio-economic issue that you can really put your hands on.
MISHAL HUSAIN: We certainly hear that from young Muslim men in the film who say that they're being discriminated against. Is there any argument that that perhaps they're isolating themselves from the mainstream of French society? That perhaps they need to do more?
FAWAZ GERGES: The question is how do they isolate themselves from French society when they cannot get jobs? When they apply to jobs and they say they are discriminated against because of their names, their race, their religion. At least we should listen to them. And also the idea of separation -- there's a wall of separation between the Muslim community -- not just in France, in England, in Germany, and other places -- and mainstream communities. And the question is how do you integrate these particular communities? You do so by providing opportunities. By reducing the sense of alienation and marginalization. And this is what I call an effective recipe in the long term, rather than a focus on highly loaded cultural issues which complicate the process of the integration of the Muslim community in France. I think if you listen carefully to the rhetoric of the French political class they say: well, listen we want to help integrate the Muslim community in France. But if you talk to Muslims, in fact this particular decision, far from helping to integrate the Muslim community, could end up isolating, excluding, alienating, and estrange the young French Muslim men and women from the system. And this is where the danger lies.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Just put this in context for us, how big a community in France are we talking about here?
FAWAZ GERGES: We're talking about a big community of almost five million Muslims who live in France. The French State does not really stress this particular aspect because it believes in equality; that all individuals and citizens are French rather than really Muslims. Yet the community itself feels it's very much ... it's a Muslim community. It felts that it is marginalized. It feels excluded. Unemployment is very high among young Muslims in France. And this is why I think you cannot on the one hand say that we believe every one is a citizen. On the other hand you have a leading major minority community that feels marginalized, excluded, and has not been able to climb the socio-economic ladder as the mainstream French communities.
MISHAL HUSAIN: The fact that they're not really counted by the French state -- does that tell us something about French thinking?
FAWAZ GERGES: Yes! I think it tells us about the psychological and mental state in which, at least, the French political class think. I think they want to bury this particular issue under the carpet. You can't do that. The Muslim community in France exists. It's a major community in terms of numbers and also in terms of social weight. And this is why if you want to take a decision to ban the veil -- because you want to integrate this particular community into the social fabric French society -- yet at the same time is the French state taking major steps to help a community integrate in terms of socio-economic needs and means? There's a major gap between the rhetoric of the French political class and the reality on the ground. In particular in this case the reality of the Muslim community.
MISHAL HUSAIN: So if minorities aren't counted in their ethnic groups in France -- what does that tell us about the thinking?
FAWAZ GERGES: Well I think it tells us a great deal about the psychological aspect of the French political class. I think the French political class would like us to basically think that this particular minority does not exist. It would like to bury this particular issue under the carpet. You cannot do that because it exists. It's a large community and the community itself feels marginalized and excluded from the mainstream French society.
MISHAL HUSAIN: But the French argument to that would be that they're taking steps to form these councils, which will be like the political face of Muslims in France. That they're taking steps to talk about the veil in schools. That there are urban regeneration projects going on. This isn't a community that's being ignored. It's in the headlines everyday.
FAWAZ GERGES: I think the French are trying very hard to find ways and means to help integrate the Muslim community. But I think the veil itself is not the answer. Creating an official Islam is not the answer. It seems to me that now the French republic is doing exactly what our governments in Pakistan have done in the last 50 years. It creates a form of official Islam. And in fact official Islam has exploded in their faces and the faces of Arab governments in the last few years. Osama Bin Laden is basically an extension, was an extension of official Islam in Saudi Arabia. These are gimmicks. The real issues remain the socio-economic and political situation. How do you provide major socio-economic opportunities for young Muslim men and women? How do you open up the political process? How do you create more educational opportunities? In the United States they take so-called affirmative action to help the African-American community get integrated, become less excluded. Of course the Muslim community cannot be compared to the African-American community. But what I'm talking about here ... instead of basically going about the issue in a very superficial way let's talk about the real practical recipes here. What are the most effective means and mechanisms that help the Muslim community in France gets integrated? The most effective mechanisms are the socio-economic level and the political levels? Provide employment for the unemployed French, I mean, Muslim youth, which number almost 30 percent. These are the issues. I'm not suggesting the French state is not trying to do so much, but for the last 30 years little has been done. And many members of the community feel excluded. And the question is how do you help them to get fully integrated?
MISHAL HUSAIN: We do see some positive examples though in the film, people like Besma, people like Hagi, who have ... have worked hard and found their place in French society.
FAWAZ GERGES: Absolutely. I think there are many successful examples. I think we are basically misleading our audience if we say that somehow we can talk about the Muslim community as a model. There are thousands and thousands of examples whereby Muslims have become professionals, are very successful on the literary scene, educational scene, the economic scene, but I'm talking large numbers of the community who tell you they feel excluded and marginalized. And the question is, How do you bring them in, into the system? This is the question. And on the table there are two basically paradigms. Do we bring them in by legislating in terms of socio-economic and educational aspects? I'm suggesting let's focus on the material, practical aspects that lie at the heart of the crisis which is faced by the Muslim community in France. Not on the ideological aspect, the cultural aspect, that is the veil.
MISHAL HUSAIN: But would you accept that in order to get at that point where you can offer more economic opportunities -- that in schools you need to have this level playing field where students are visibly all equal. Where you don't have students wandering around covering their heads, perhaps making other people feel uncomfortable.
FAWAZ GERGES: I don't know really how you deal with this particular situation but my understanding is that if you deal with the question of exclusion, alienation and marginalization, I don't think there's an issue there. Could it be somehow be that the Islamization of the Muslim community is part in parcel of the social exclusion and marginalization of the community? Could it be somehow that many of the girls and women who are wearing the veil basically come from highly poor and marginalized families? Could it be that the further modernization, or rather inclusion, of the Muslim community basically provides the answer to the question -- I mean creating this wall of separation? This is what I'm trying to think about. I'm suggesting we should really fly higher in order to understand the complexity of the situation instead of saying, somehow, if we ban the veil we basically deal with the issues. I wonder. My fear is that in fact it could have the opposite results. And if it does it has ramifications for the Muslim community in France and beyond as well.
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Fawaz Gerges, professor of International Affairs and Middle Eastern Studies at Sarah Lawrence College
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