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MISHAL HUSAIN: Do you think that this whole issue of the veil has also got out of reporting -- in the sense that it's a very big topic in France, outside France, and yet if you look at the figures it's something like 1,000 school girls in France who've gone to school wearing the veil.
FAWAZ GERGES: Absolutely it's a very tiny, minor issue. And this is ... why would you create a problem where a problem does not exist? Why do you use state power in order to create this huge debate in France and outside France? Why do you basically provide ammunition to conservative Muslims who are trying to create an authentic Muslim community? But this is why I again come back to the big question. I think the debate over the veil is the tip of the iceberg. There are bigger issues involved here. And I think the French decision should be seen as one step in a long and complex process in order to weaken the influence of conservative Muslims over the community and dismantle the so-called political Islam that is the influence of conservative radical Muslim clerics over the Muslim community in France.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Is there an element of Islamaphobia in the French approach? That would be what many Muslims think.
FAWAZ GERGES: That's how it seen by Muslims in France. I think many Muslims in France believe that a wide spread racism, xenophobia, and Islamaphobia exists in France. And this is why they tend to be excluded and marginalized from the mainstream.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Is that fair do you think?
FAWAZ GERGES: I think it exist no doubt about it. That is, widespread Islamaphobia exist, and I think in particular -- I think the French right is terrified about the rise of Islamist or the expression of Islamist sentiments and symbols, which in the eyes of the French right, basically threaten their way of life. Many Muslims in France believe there's widespread racism and xenophobia and islamaphobia involved in the debate itself. And they say why, for example, focus on the veil? Why not focus on the question of exclusion, the question of maginalization, the question of employment, and the question of the lack of economic and political opportunities? They argue that the debate really has diverted them to the wrong sphere.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Do they have a point?
FAWAZ GERGES: Absolutely and this is why I believe that -- I think the most effective mechanisms to deal with the question of the minorities in France and everywhere else is to deal with the real practical issues. The question of exclusion, marginalization, and employment. The question of opening up the political and social sphere to integrate the tens of thousands, hundreds of thousands, of young men and women who tend to be unemployed.
MISHAL HUSAIN: The French buzzword for so long in dealing with its immigrants and its minority communities has been integration. That's been the way they've wanted to approach this and wanted to treat everyone equally.
FAWAZ GERGES: First of all, you cannot legislate using state power to force people to integrate. And secondly, what we need to understand here is that most Muslims in France are basically second and third generations. They speak French, they were born in France. Why does he have to feel forced to get integrated into French society? They don't even speak Arabic. They read the Koran in French and so on and so forth. And I think this is a legitimate question. And many Muslims in France argue too, why do we have to make all the concessions ourselves? Does French mainstream society help us to do so? Are we being integrated? Are we being included in mainstream French society? I think there are two points of view here. On the one hand it seems to me that the French political class now is trying to legislate, to force the question of integration, to put it on the table. On the other hand, I think it should do more on the socio-economic and political sphere rather then on the ideological sphere.
MISHAL HUSAIN: The other element to this whole question of integration is also where the community's heading demographically. This is a very fast growing community.
FAWAZ GERGES: I think the Muslim community in France, like in the United States, is the largest growing community. And this tells you about the extent of the situation. This is not going away. This will be with us forever in a way. That is, French society has become truly multi-ethnic, multi-religious, multi-cultured. And the question is; to what extent should the state legislate in order to force integration? And could it be, somehow, that banning the veil could in fact -- far from really helping the Muslim community to integrate -- in fact intensify alienation from the system?
MISHAL HUSAIN: And how would that happen? In your view, what are the dangers of banning the veil as is about to happen in France?
FAWAZ GERGES: Well I think there are several issues involved here. I think the Muslim community in France feels profiled, excluded, and marginalized. And I think it feels -- as a result not just banning the veil -- it feels also on the defensive. And I fear that this particular debate and its aftermath could really fuel political Islam. It could supply ammunition to conservative Muslims to say, listen we are not being integrated -- our religion and culture is being attacked by the French state. So I think there's a real danger here that this particular decision and the ongoing debate could supply ammunition to militancy and radicalism. It could play into the hands of conservative and reactionary Muslims who would like to maintain the walls of separation between the Muslim community and mainstream French communities as well.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Would you go so far as to say it could fuel terrorism?
FAWAZ GERGES: Let me be blunt about it. I don't think that the debate over the veil is as vital as the war on terrorism, or as the invasion occupation of Iraq, or as you might say, the real issues of unemployment and alienation and marginalization. It's an important element but that's not the issue. Could it somehow ... could be decision and its aftermaths supply ammunition to fringe movements, and help these movements infiltrate the Muslim community in France? This is a legitimate question. Could the decision and its implications --- further alienation of Muslim young men and women -- basically help these French movements recruit foot soldiers? These are legitimate questions that need to be put on the table. And this is why it seems to me that using state power in order to legislate on a highly loaded cultural question could have the opposite results from the intended consequences. It could fuel political Islam. It could supply more ammunition to conservative Muslims and it could help fringe militant groups to infiltrate the Muslim community in France and recruit foot soldiers.
MISHAL HUSAIN: So how is how is all of this being viewed so far, say in the Middle East?
FAWAZ GERGES: One point must be made very clear. The reverberations of this particular debate go beyond France, beyond Europe, into the Middle East. I think the overall response or responses in the Arab and Muslim world have been highly negative, highly volatile. Many Muslims, many Arabs, and many Muslims in Egypt, in Iran, in Pakistan, in Yemen, believe this is not an isolated act on the part of the French government. This is another proof, they say, of the hostility and enmity of the west towards Islam and Muslims. And they say -- listen it's not just the veil -- look the Pope advising Catholic women not to marry Muslim men, because they're different, they're Muslims. A few days ago one of the leading aides of the Pope said, "Listen, Turkey is a Muslim country of 17 million people in permanent conflict with Christian Europe, and as such it could not be integrated into mainstream European community." And Arabs and Muslims say -- look at the war on terrorism! Look at the invasions and occupation of an Arab and Muslim country! And I thinking ... this particular debate -- the veil is seen in a broader context as part and parcel of an onslaught against Islam and Muslims. And this is highly dangerous because I think it widens the cultural gulf between the so-called west and the so-called world of Islam.
MISHAL HUSAIN: It seems that the French government is in an impossible situation. There's a danger of fueling political Islam and acting on this issue, on the one hand, and on the other hand there's the danger of eroding the secular ideals that are the very foundation of the French state.
FAWAZ GERGES: This is why I wonder about the wisdom of the decision itself, even though you might say that secularism demands that there are no overt expression religious sentiments and practices in public schools. I wonder if the disadvantages outweigh the advantages? In particular, the personal choices and freedoms. I mean Muslim girls and women. We have been talking about the political and security implications. How about asking French girls and women their personal choices? Their freedoms are being violated. And this is a highly serious situation. Ironically, Al Quaeda has also tried to use the decision to ban the veil in order to show itself as the champion and defender of Islam and Muslims. Iman Zwahari, Bin Laden's deputy, in a videotape said the decision by the French government to ban the veil shows the west's enmity towards Islam and Muslims. And Zwahari, of course, warned of consequences. Of course I don't believe that Iman Zwahari and Osama Bin Laden could use this particular decision to recruit more soldiers into their suicide squads, but surely it supplies them with more ammunition to use in their crusade against the west. It supplies them with more arguments to show that there is a clash of cultures in civilizations between east and west. And this is how Al Quaeda has been trying to use and abuse this particular decision like many other situations it has been trying to abuse.
MISHAL HUSAIN: How would you say that the situation for Muslims in France today -- and the issues that affect them -- are different from the issues for Americas Muslims today?
FAWAZ GERGES: American Muslims have been able to climb the socio-economic ladder. They have not been as excluded and marginalized as their Muslim counterparts in Europe. American Muslims have found it much easier to adjust and adapt to the American system. The American system is an open system, in sense that America was founded by immigrants, and Arabs and Muslims are no exception. And I think the most important element here [is that] the American system respects and tolerates the overt expression of religious practices and symbols. And this is really unique to the American experience. And this is why the Muslim community in the United States has found it much easier to get integrated into the social fabric of American society, even though after 9-11 the Muslim community faces, truly, some existential questions.
MISHAL HUSAIN: But it's also easier, isn't it, for the United States because the Muslim community is much smaller than it is in France. The United States is much bigger.
FAWAZ GERGES: Absolutely. And also the system itself ... the system has mechanisms to really integrate its minorities and its immigrants. I think in this particular sense we cannot talk about the American system, except now we have to mention the 9-11 earthquake and its aftershocks. I think the Muslim community in America is going through very difficult times indeed. And the community itself feels besieged and on the defensive and I'm really shocked by the how the community has turned into itself -- has turned inward as a result of 9-11 and the aftermath of 9-11. And it's a shame. Not only [because] the Muslim community plays a vital role in American life but [because] the Muslim community in the United States could serve as the first defense line against terrorism to protect its adopted country. Yet the community itself now appears to have turned inward; its members are terrified. They're terrified by the rising, widespread Islamaphobia in the United States. And I fear that we're going to witness a much more pronounced Islamaphobia in the United States than ever before. I think the very future of the Muslim community in the United State, according to many Muslims, is on the table now. Many American Muslims are terrified. They are besieged. It's a trauma ... the community is undergoing a trauma as a result of the 9-11 earthquake and its aftermath. Some colleagues of mine, academics, are terrified to have Arabic newspapers in their class less they are stopped by a police officer. They're terrified to read an Arabic book at an airport because they're terrified. The community itself feels that now it's suspect by its fellow Americans, and the community feels that the terrorism label has been stamped on its forehead for no other reason except that other Muslims committed abusive act against other fellow Americans.
MISHAL HUSAIN: Fawaz Gerges, thanks for joining us on WIDE ANGLE.
FAWAZ GERGES: It's my pleasure, thanks for having me.
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Fawaz Gerges, professor of International Affairs and Middle Eastern Studies at Sarah Lawrence College
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