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BILL MOYERS:
So what are the lessons you take away from these eight women trying to make a go of it in that little town in Israel? Are there any lessons that come out of their experience that would inform us about the Arab world?
AZZA KARAM:
Yes, as we were saying earlier, it's important to realize that the Arab world is full of surprises. That Arab women are not universally oppressed, subjugated, depressed, etc. That there's a tremendous amount of determination, a tremendous amount of creativity. That each one has a strength of her own. And it's precisely because the difficulties that they may face of whatever nature, they're not alone in facing them. Many of the difficulties and challenges that these women encounter are also encountered by many other women around the world, and certainly in the Mediterranean area as well. Cultural norms and traditions are not unique to this part of the world. So I think that ability to see how there is laughter in the midst of pain. There is joy in the midst of difficulty. And there is determination to take on risks, and do something new, and be strong. It's very, very much a feature of that part of the world, too.
BILL MOYERS:
What are the difficulties? I accept that, and appreciate it. Why is it hard to be a woman in the Arab world?
AZZA KARAM:
To be perfectly honest though I don't think it's harder to be a woman in the Arab world than it is to be a woman anywhere in the world. I have lived in so many different parts of the world now. I see a remarkable thread of continuity and commonality between and amongst women from any part of the world.
I have a difficulty stomaching the notion that it's particularly difficult for women in the Arab world. I don't think so. I think that the Arab world tends to be, by and large, of course with many exceptions, still tribally dominated. And there's still the notion of how a tribe exists and coexists. And I think, to that extent, I mean wherever those kinds of values predominate in other parts of Africa, Asia, Latin America, wherever you find that things can be just a wee bit tougher for women than they would be for women who have exceeded those kinds of boundaries.
BILL MOYERS:
Authority is still a powerful force, isn't it?
AZZA KARAM:
Absolutely, universally so. Universally so.
BILL MOYERS:
Or as we see, even as we talk, Iraq struggling with the unfinished business of how to make it possible for women in Iraq to be treated equally under the new constitution. We see the religious conflicts going on there. The secularist leaders are saying this constitution, if it prevails, will put women back.
AZZA KARAM:
Yes.
BILL MOYERS:
We see Saudi Arabia, where all the stories--
AZZA KARAM:
Yes.
BILL MOYERS:
--are both familiar and common. And one has to conclude that, while women have a hard time of it in any patriarchal society there seems to be something that keeps women from making it as equals in the Arab world.
AZZA KARAM:
No. Let me put it differently. I think that the focus on the Arab world now is quite intense. And it has been since September the 11th. Let's face it, there's been so much more information, and coverage, and just attention directed to that part of the world. Sometimes almost to the exclusion of other parts of the world. And I hear that from many of my Latin American and sometime African colleagues that, you know, you in the Arab world, you get all the blessed attention. And there are those of us who would say, "Well, we wish we didn't quite have that much attention on our part of the world."
But the reality is that I think if we look at women, and their situation, much more universally, there would be a great deal in common. Having said that, I think there is an element of truth--a great element of truth in what you've said. To the extent to which the Arab world is also the part of the world where a great deal of global politics seems to be happening, or based on, or inspired by, or whatever the word is. It's like the cauldron of global political dynamics. To that extent there are obviously going to be specific difficulties, nuances, that affect people's lives in the Arab world. Amongst them women's lives.
BILL MOYERS:
Well, I take some of my perceptions from the UN report that you coordinated--
AZZA KARAM:
Global Human Development--
BILL MOYERS:
What's it called?
AZZA KARAM:
The Arab Human Development Report.
BILL MOYERS:
And one of the reports, signed by several Arab intellectuals said that one reason for the Arab world's retarded development is discrimination against women.
AZZA KARAM:
Absolutely. The Arab Human Development report, the very first one, which was issued in 2002, and has been a flagship of the United Nations Development program work, in addition to the Global Human Development report, by the way, which is also another flagship. It did identify three deficits in the Arab world.
Women's empowerment was one deficit. Governance and freedom was another deficit. And the third deficit was knowledge. It did not prioritize one deficit over another. It did not identify those three deficits to the exclusion of other things that are also highly problematic, like poverty in the region. But it did say that those are the three most critical dynamics that are, if you will, affecting the process of human development. So in a way, it put women's empowerment on a par with governance and freedom issues. And with knowledge in the region.
And in so far as it did that, it did us all a huge favor. Because now we can begin to talk about women's empowerment, not as though it was this "please pay a special attention, do us a favor by focusing on us" kind of way. But more by looking at it as equal in importance and a requirement of attention as the other political dynamics in the region.
BILL MOYERS:
I don't mean to put you on the spot, or require you to defend Arab culture. Now I'm quite aware of the inequality in this country that still exists, particularly in the political religion we now call conservative Christianity. A patriarchy is a still a desired state of affairs. I don't want to put you on the spot, or make you defend the culture that we know has nuances in it. But what would you have us understand about women in Arab societies today?
AZZA KARAM:
That they are just as powerful, diverse, tough and soft as any other women anywhere in the world, quite frankly. It would be a dream come true if there was a reality or realization that Arab women certainly have specific difficulties that they face. But these are not in any way decapitating, debilitating and handicapping. These are just difficulties that have to be faced, and they face them. And they do remarkably well when they face them, too.
BILL MOYERS:
How do you explain that, throughout the Arab world, there seem to be fewer women in parliament, fewer women in cabinets, fewer women in the workforce? How do you explain that?
AZZA KARAM:
Because of the context that I was referring to earlier of tribal norms. And patriarchy can still thrive particularly well in tribal cultures. The Arab world, again speaking very generally, and noting different exceptions, it does tend to be a tribal culture.
BILL MOYERS:
Would you say it is more from that tribal custom when men were the dominant force in the tribe than from the teachings of Islam?
AZZA KARAM:
Absolutely. Because if you look at the Arab world, it's such a hodgepodge of different religions. You have Christian women who are facing exactly the same difficulty as Muslim women. Previous to the creation of the state of Israel, when you had more significant Jewish populations in that part of the world, they were facing the same issues, as Jewish women, that their Christian and Muslim counterparts were facing.
So I would be very categorical in saying that the religion, per se, is not the issue or the problem. And it's certainly, to me, very clear that it is the way that their religion has been used and adapted by certain already long existing patriarchal elements and tribal elements. That is where our problem is in the Arab world.
BILL MOYERS:
In my own tradition, in the Christian tradition, the origins of the church assign women to a secondary position because the patriarchy was the desired form by the people who were writing the rules. I mean are you saying that's what the situation is in the Arab world, too?
AZZA KARAM:
Yes, I'm saying that that's where the situation is. And most parts of the world, definitely in the Arab world, wherever the interpretation of religion--it's put into action usually by men. Wherever that has happened, the faith has been twisted in the process.
BILL MOYERS:
Who told you who you are?
AZZA KARAM:
Who told me who I am? My family. My mother, primarily. Very much my mother, actually. And my father, obviously.
BILL MOYERS:
And your father, too? How--why? What did they do? They told you could do whatever you wanted to do. How did that happen?
AZZA KARAM:
Well, they didn't quite say you could do whatever you wanted to do. But I think what they did is they gave me the tools to discover who I was.
BILL MOYERS:
Such as?
AZZA KARAM:
Confidence. The capacity to question everything, which used to drive them nuts as well. But also the ability to realize that faith is a very important ingredient in my life. They helped me discover that just by being people of faith themselves.
BILL MOYERS:
Muslim?
AZZA KARAM:
Absolutely. Absolutely.
BILL MOYERS:
They would read the Koran to you?
AZZA KARAM:
They read the Koran to me. They made sure that I learned it.
BILL MOYERS:
You didn't read any those verses about the secondary status of women?
AZZA KARAM:
I did. And I learned the verses in the context within which they came. I learned the story of Islam. Not just the words of the Koran. And that makes a difference.
BILL MOYERS:
And the story told you about women?
AZZA KARAM:
The story told me about men and women, it told me about the culture and the tribe within which the first words of the Koran were first uttered. Told me about the story of the life of the Prophet, his own life. Told me about the story of the wives of the Prophet.
Told me about people like Jesus and Moses and plenty of other prophets that came long before the Prophet of Islam. It told me about a whole world that existed prior to what I understand today to be the Koran. The Koran itself, the story of the Prophet who had the message. And the story of the communities that followed him.
BILL MOYERS:
And what did you come to see about women in that long epic story?
AZZA KARAM:
That there's plenty more strength than we are ever able to realize. But also that there hasn't been a single prophet of God, male prophet, who's been able to make it quite without the support of at least one woman.
BILL MOYERS:
But where is there a female prophet?
AZZA KARAM:
Well, you don't need one.
BILL MOYERS:
Why?
AZZA KARAM:
Because they're all over, all over the place. You need the man to be a prophet. But a woman, she's always there.
BILL MOYERS:
What did your parents think about your going into the workforce, going out into the world?
AZZA KARAM:
I think the original feeling was something that was very pervasive at a certain moment in time when I was growing up which is if you don't need to work, why must you work? Which with a significant amount of cajoling, and argument, eventually...
BILL MOYERS:
They think you didn't need to work?
AZZA KARAM:
Absolutely. It was why do you need to work? You're fine. You're well fed, you're well schooled, you're well educated. Everything's there. Why do you need to work?
BILL MOYERS:
And what did you say?
AZZA KARAM:
Because I would enjoy the challenge of being part of a larger structure, rather than just being at home, and with my friends, or at school, or at university. Like just beyond, the rest of the world. Public space was the rest of the world. So I very much wanted to be part of that.
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Azza Karam, Senior Policy Research Advisor for the United Nations Development Program and Coordinator for the U.N. Arab Human Development Report
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