September 19, 2002: Senator George Mitchell discusses India with host Jamie Rubin.
Jamie Rubin: Senator Mitchell, thank you for joining us here on Wide Angle. We've just seen a very powerful film about ethnic violence, religious violence in India. Why do you think the American people and the American government should be concerned about this kind of extreme violence in India?
Senator Mitchell:
If there's a lesson from 9/11, it is that what happens in rural parts of the world can have an effect here in the United States, on 9/11 the dramatic, violence, tragic event of which had its origins half way around the world. In fact, in a place very close to India, in Pakistan. The relations between Hindus and Muslims in the Indian subcontinent, of course, is part of the larger conflict between India and Pakistan. They once were part of the same entity, divided when they gained their independence from Britain. And still was the subject of considerable tension and violence as this show has demonstrated, but complicated, compounded by the factor that both India and Pakistan possessed nuclear weapons. There is a lot of attention these days to the Middle East and Iraq. It is a credible argument that what is happening in India and Pakistan is even more critical to our future, given the numbers of people, given the explosive nature of the tensions and given the possession of nuclear weapons. So I think Americans should care a lot about what goes on on the Indian subcontinent.
Jamie Rubin:
In the film, we see the extent of the hatred that seems to exist between peoples as much as between their leaders. Even during the Cold War, the American people and the Soviet Union's people were not as angry at each other as perhaps their governments were. When people suggest that nuclear weapons might be used in anger in the Indian subcontinent, do you think part of it is the dehumanization of the other populations?
Senator Mitchell:
Yes, of course, it is. I think there are two factors involved. First, of course, the dehumanization of opponents is not unique to that conflict, nor is it new in human history. I was a very young boy during the Second World War and I can still recall the dehumanization of Germans and Japanese here in this country. A few years later, after I graduated from college, I went to Germany as a young man, as an U.S. Army intelligence officer and I can recall thinking I was surprised, gee, they're just like us.
Jamie Rubin:
(Laughs)
Senator Mitchell:
This wasn't what I remembered from my earlier days, as a kid during the Second World War. So dehumanization is a part of conflict and has been throughout human history and will continue. The second factor, which is I think what makes it hard for Americans to understand, is that almost all Americans think of themselves first as Americans. They don't think of themselves as first Protestants or Catholics or Jews or some other religion. But as you saw in this film, and as is the case for much of the world, many people tend to think of themselves -- their primary identity -- is as a part of a religious group. They are Muslims, they are Hindu, and then they are Indians or Pakistanis or some other group.
So I think that it is a difficult, complex circumstance where religion is in some cases, not even the dominant factor feeding conflict, but it is a very important factor.
Jamie Rubin:
The United States has played a role, and certainly you have ... and we'll get to that in a moment ... in conflicts in Northern Ireland and the Balkans and the Middle East. How important is it that the world's only super power, the United States, plays a leading role in trying to make peace in these kind of situations?
Senator Mitchell:
Well, again, the lesson of 9/11 is we're going to play a role, either active or passive. If we sit back and do nothing, uh, we're likely to be the recipients, uh, of this type of crime and horrific activity because we are the dominant power. Throughout history there have been dominant military and economic power, but I think some historians believe that never has the gap been greater. Never has the dominant power been so dominant, certainly not since Roman times. And with the continuing spread -- not just of American influence through military and economic power -- but cultural, language and every other way, it's very clear that for some people, every problem in the world is an American problem. And every grievance, whether real or imagined, however local, is attributed to the dominant power. You've traveled around the world and I'm sure you've been as astonished as I have that how many people think that everything that goes on is a CIA plot.
Jamie Rubin:
That everything is our fault.
Senator Mitchell:
I mean, the Americans had something to do with everything that happens.
Jamie Rubin:
Right.
Senator Mitchell:
Now, we think of this as fantastic and simply not the case, but it's a deeply held view in much of the world, and in much of the Muslim work. And so I think our position on the world's stage makes it inevitable that we will be a party to a lot of what goes on in the world and we're better off trying to take an active role to shape them in a positive way rather than the passive role of being the recipients of 9/11.
Jamie Rubin:
Let's talk about the Muslim angle for a moment. Right now the Bush Administration in the United States is trying to make very clear that the war against terrorism is not a war against Islam. Do you think it's important for us to make an example of those times when Muslims are the subject of oppression, as they have been in this film and try to show the Muslim world that we come to their defense as much as we do in responding to Muslim extremism?
Senator Mitchell:
Yeah. I think we should do it because it's the right thing, not so much to make it an example. And in fact, we have done so. The United States intervention in the Balkans -- in Bosnia and in Kosovo was largely to protect Muslims from what we and others in the international community perceived as inappropriate activity by others. Violence visited upon them, although of course, it went both ways and there were other complicating factors.
But we have done so, there and in other places and we should make that clear that we defend values: democracy, individual liberty the right of self-determination not religions or ethnic groups and we should have the view that we do the right thing, and hopefully that will be seen around the Muslim world, although I think we have to acknowledge that so far at least that's not the case.
Jamie Rubin:
Right. Let's talk a little bit about your experiences. Senator Mitchell, you were asked to join and lead an effort in Northern Ireland in 1994 and you spent four long years working on that problem, leading to the famous Good Friday agreement and then worked again in 1999 to save that agreement. Many people credit you with being a decisive influence. Can you reflect with us a little bit about the negotiating lessons you've learned from that experience?
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