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DHALIWAL:
Is Ireland already losing out to countries like Poland?
SUTHERLAND:
Well, the evidence doesn't really support that. And it isn't supported by the number of people who are coming to Ireland seeking employment or by the fact that our unemployment rate is still one of the lowest in Europe. And our GDP per capita is one of the highest. Now, I'm not saying that we can be sanguine about this forever. I mean, we've had a long night and a very short day in Ireland. And that short day, many of us hope, can continue. But, there's no doubt that we have challenges, just as the U.S. has challenges with China, we have challenges in our way with China and India, too. And with Central and Eastern Europe.
DHALIWAL:
So, you can't afford to be complacent.
SUTHERLAND:
Absolutely not.
DHALIWAL:
Ireland, of course, has competition from newer countries that have joined the European Union. And they're looking at Ireland, and they're very interested in what's going on here. Do you think that they can replicate the success of Ireland and how much of a problem is that going to be for Ireland, if they do?
SUTHERLAND:
I think that they can. They have opportunities just as we had them, and will take them, I've no doubt. And I don't see it as an either-or situation. It's like when the Spanish came in. Many felt in Germany that this would, somehow, drag Germany down. In fact it raises all boats if everybody competes better. It doesn't have a negative effect.
DHALIWAL:
What do you mean by that?
SUTHERLAND:
Well, it's not an either-or situation. Global trade has always had the effect of raising everybody. You can get pockets of disadvantage where some jobs go to one, as opposed to another. But, when the overall income of the whole area goes up, everybody gains by it.
So I don't think we're in a negative situation vis-à-vis the Poles, or the Czechs and the Slovaks. In fact, they're coming over here, and they're being taught by our industrial development organization -- which brings in investment -- how to do it. We're doing the best we can to be helpful to them.
DHALIWAL:
So they're already on the economic escalator, these countries.
SUTHERLAND:
They are. Absolutely. And it's a very good thing for Europe.
DHALIWAL:
Is it a good thing for Ireland though?
SUTHERLAND:
It is. Absolutely.
DHALIWAL:
How?
SUTHERLAND:
It's a good thing for Ireland if Europe advances, if growth all over Europe advances. The Irish growth rate over the last decade has been phenomenal even though the growth rate of Europe, as a whole, has been lower than that of the United States. Imagine what our growth rate would have been if France, Germany and Italy were really motoring. The same applies to Poland. Poland, once they start to move up, will be taking our exports, and we will not merely be taking theirs. This is how commerce works.
DHALIWAL:
A lot of the Irish people might feel threatened by what you just said, because they think that their jobs are going to be on the line. That if you say it's OK for these countries to replicate what Ireland is doing, it's almost like giving away the Irish secrets and letting them take their jobs and depress wages. You know the argument.
SUTHERLAND:
Yeah, I know the argument, but I don't believe it for one instant. I don't think it's true. We joined the European Union where everybody could compete and does compete, and it's good for everybody that we're in, and it's good for everybody that they are in. I don't think it's an either-or situation. I think that what the Poles, the Czechs, the Slovaks, Slovenians and so on and so forth have to do, is they have to embrace Europe and not nationalism.
And if we were to turn round and to re-embrace economic nationalism -- that is erecting borders or being difficult with our neighbors, including the new member states of the European Union -- we would be denying the very thing that we need to succeed. Which is to continue to open markets, continue to grow, with others growing as well.
DHALIWAL:
But you would say that because you're a huge fan of globalization?
SUTHERLAND:
Yes, I am. Globalization, and above all, European integration, in the first instance, has made us what we are. So, of course, I'm in favor of it. And I don't like the people who want to turn their back on that and go back into some sort of protectionist enclave -- either in that area or, for that matter, in the area of migration. I think we have to be open to the world.
DHALIWAL:
Which brings me back to the question of indigenous industries. What are Ireland's indigenous industries? And why is it so important to grow those indigenous industries in a global economy?
SUTHERLAND:
Well, Ireland's indigenous industries are increasingly in areas like the support services and financial services. The growth of the Financial Services Center in Dublin has been enormously important. We have produced some indigenous companies in areas like, for an example, pharmaceuticals with Élan. We've had our own development in other service companies like airlines.
There are numerous companies here that have been formed in the last 10 years which are basically in the high-tech space. That's the only area that we're going to be able to survive and win in because the reality is that if we were trying to make major profits, for an example, in textiles, we couldn't do it any more than the United States could do it. The French couldn't do it or the British can't do it because they'd be out-beaten on cost by low-cost destinations.
DHALIWAL:
Even though Irish linen is supposed to be world-famous?
SUTHERLAND:
Well, Irish linen is justifiably world-famous. (LAUGHTER) And I hope it will continue to be world-famous. But, the reality is that what we have to rely on is our young people -- their education, their skill, their capacity to compete better than others. But, we're living in a highly competitive world. And there's no assurance that this is going to go on forever. We are living in Valhalla at the moment and we hope it will continue.
I think it probably will because I'm very proud as an Irishman living abroad to see the sort of young people that we're producing. They're sought everywhere. And our educational system, I think, is pretty good.
DHALIWAL:
The role of women in the workforce -- how important has that been to the boom and the subsequent growth? Has that been overplayed?
SUTHERLAND:
No, it hasn't. I think that that's a very important part of it. Because if you actually look at labor participation, rates, i.e. the number of women working in society, if you have very low labor participation rights, your GDP, your wealth as a country, goes down considerably. I think the number of women working now in Ireland in most age groups, is either at or above the norm in Europe. So it's been a huge change.
It has pluses and minuses, I'm sure, for the women who work. Some want to work and some would probably prefer to spend more time at home and may have to work. But in terms of economic development, it's been undoubtedly a good thing. And I think it must be a massively liberating thing in terms of many women and their aspirations. I still don't think that there are enough women in senior positions, but that will come with time.
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Peter Sutherland, Chairman of BP and Goldman Sachs and UN Special Representative on Migration and Development
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