September 5, 2002: Enrique Krauze discusses human rights and corruption in Mexico with host Daljit Dhaliwal.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
Enrique Krauze, welcome to WIDE ANGLE.
Enrique Krauze:
Thank you very much.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
Why should Americans care about what's happening in Mexico?
Enrique Krauze:
First of all because you have Mexico within the U.S. It's not just a neighbor. We will remain neighbors for some centuries. It's not only that Mexico is a friend of the United States. It's also a partner. A very important commercial partner. But also the fact that you have 20 million Mexicans within the borders of the United States, and that is changing American culture, and it's bound to change it both ways. It's changing Mexican culture, and American culture. So mutual understanding is something very important.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
Immigration is a major factor linking the U.S. and Mexico. What should we know about it?
Enrique Krauze:
It is a very healthy kind of migration. If you compare it with other kinds of difficult, or conflictive migrations in our own time, for instance in Europe, you see that there is comparability, a culture comparability between the US and Mexico. Mexican culture has been inclusive from the very beginning. Mexico was, I would say, the most successful experiment of cultural blending in the Americas. Spaniards and Indians mixed not only biologically but also culturally. You have not the same experience in Peru and South America, and of course you don't have it in the United States.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
Do Americans understand Mexican culture?
Enrique Krauze:
No, unfortunately not. It would be wonderful if they understand not only Mexico. After the shock of 9/11, Americans began to understand that they need to know how America is perceived in the outside world. And they found out some unpleasant truths, no? Of course I don't agree with many of them. But the truth is there, and the perceptions are there. The United States is a reluctant empire. What will be the role of the United States in the 21st century? It's bound to have a role of immense importance in the world, naturally it must know better what's happening out there. So the force has to be matched with the knowledge of different cultures, and it might start with the friendly -- more or less friendly -- but different and distant neighbor.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
What do you mean by unpleasant truths?
Enrique Krauze:
For instance there are places in the world where America is not liked, where there is resentment and even hatred. But that's not the case with Mexico. It's important to know your adversaries and your enemies. But it's also important to know your friends. And Mexico is mainly, as I say, a neighbor, a friend, a partner of the United States. So it's important to know Mexicans. If history becomes more conflictive, which it's bound to become in the next years, to know thy neighbor is important. You don't necessarily have to love thy neighbor…
Daljit Dhaliwal:
But it helps if you love your neighbor. Doesn't it?
Enrique Krauze:
Yeah. But first get to know him. It's like love. Get to know him, and then love him.
Mexico and the whole of Latin America is the West ... let's not forget that. It's an eccentric part of Western Civilization, but it's still the West. We don't have the kind of conflict that Europe has now with the Muslim migration, which is very conflictive.
In Mexico there is a kind of historical resentment. I don't think there is hatred. But there is historical resentment for some clear historic reasons. We had a war that America has forgotten, the first war of the 19th century, where we lost half of our territory to the United States. And then there are incidents that have been completely forgotten, or not known in the United States, which every boy or girl in Mexico knows. At the beginning of the century, for instance, there was a very pure Mexican president, a Democrat, who was assassinated with direct intervention of the American ambassador. But again, these are things of the past. Now we have friendly, but not simple, relations.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
Has NAFTA, the North American Free Trade Agreement, had a positive or negative impact?
Enrique Krauze:
NAFTA has done wonders in my point of view for both countries. The free trade agreement has been important economically, but also it has enabled political changes in Mexico which have been very important in recent years.
Mexican people have an intense sense of history, but they don't cling to the past that much anymore. They are now more drawn to look to the future. That's why NAFTA presents a huge opportunity for our countries.
I think that Mexicans have a healthy attitude towards their northern neighbor. They would like to have a better life. They would like to have it there, but if they cannot have it in Mexico they come here to the United States, some of them, to reach for a better life for their families.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
President Bush promised to make Mexico his first priority. Do you think that's happened?
Enrique Krauze:
No, because that was said September 5, 2001. And six days later, we had that historic shock [of 9/11]. And understandably, the priorities of the United States have changed. The United States, for good reason, has to be much more watchful on the borders. No? But there must be a way in which we can sort that out because it's a key question for Mexicans. The whole question about how people die on the border is very sensitive. And it is really doing damage to our relationship, which I underline again and again, it's healthier than some people think. It is not important if you say that Mexico's number one, or number three, or eleven priority. It's just important.
There are two things that the Mexican government is pressing, and rightly so, I would say. First is a deal for the migrants that are already in the U.S., three million migrants that don't have papers. And then a kind of mini-Marshall plan. A mini-mini-Marshall plan for those states, or regions of Mexico, that export migrants. Because, to be sure, it is not in their nature or the will of these people to migrate. They do it because they have to. If they would find ways to develop a better way of life in their own villages and towns, they would do so.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
Lets talk about immigration. Has there been any progress in that since 9/11?
Enrique Krauze:
No. It is in a stalemate. I understand that two of the main ideas were to legalize the millions of Mexicans that are here without their papers, and three million of them. The second point was to develop a kind of mini-Marshall plan in the regions where these migrants come from. For instance, Zacatecas. It's a very poor state, it lacks water, which is an immense problem in Mexico. and they simply haven't been able to make a life for themselves. It's a matter of life and death and of survival. It's like the 19th century waves that came from Europe. No? People from Puebla come to New York. It seems that people from Oaxaca go to California. They tend to stick together. Mexicans have an idea of life as a big extended family. But one thing we can say is that they have come here to look for a better life, not unlike the wave of immigrations all through American history. But without losing their roots in Mexico.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
They also make a huge contribution to the Mexican economy by sending money back to their families.
Enrique Krauze:
Which is very important. They sometimes go to the U.S. and they rebuild their local church, and they come with American cars, or they rebuild their homes. It contributes a lot to the welfare of Mexican peasants. But again, how can this be managed in a more rational way? I mean there are 20 million Mexicans here, and they will go on to try to become something else. Not only unskilled laborers, but to go to colleges, their children. It's a huge social and cultural change going on within your borders, and Americans need not only to acknowledge it, but to study it and come in terms with it.
After all, their work is very important for instance for agriculture and other services in the West and in the South of the United States. We also have there a picture of the border patrol. I guess doing their jobs. But many times mistreating the migrants and scenes of people dying on the border. Trying to cross the river. So the remnants of the old historical resentment of Mexicans towards the United States sometimes reappear, when there are these stories. But of course, left wing ideologues and politicians try to put more gasoline on the fire by enlarging them.
Daljit Dhaliwal:
For political purposes?
Enrique Krauze:
For their political purposes, and saying well, here you see, you cannot trust the United States. There was a famous Mexican dictator that stayed in power in 19th and 20th century for 30 years. His name was Porfirio Diaz. They say that he said "Poor Mexico. So far from God, so close to the United States." Well, not many Mexicans would say that at the beginning of the 21st century. First of all, Mexicans are not that far from God in the sense that they are very religious people, and they know we now perceive that being close to the United States has some difficulties but many advantages.
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