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July 24, 2006: Ambassador Dennis Ross, former U.S. Envoy to the Middle East peace process, and Director of the Washington Institute for Near East Policy, discusses the role of women in Muslim societies, Moroccan politics, and democracy and U.S. foreign policy in the Arab world with Anchor, Daljit Dhaliwal.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Ambassador Dennis Ross, welcome to WIDE ANGLE.
AMBASSADOR ROSS: It is really nice to be with you.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: So what did you make of what we just saw in that film?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I was really struck by what I think is a very significant approach to recognizing that women have a role to play in all aspects of life, including how to interpret the faith. You certainly do not hear that normally when you go throughout the region. You see women acted upon and frequently subjects. You do not see those women who are active in terms of trying to promote women's rights, you do not see them emphasizing the role in terms of religion, the role in terms of Islam, or the role they have as teachers. So, I was really struck by it. I find it hopeful.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Why do you think the king has picked women to be part of this reform process? Why 50 morshidat, females, rather than 50 more male imams?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I think it is a very interesting issue to raise. And it is one that separates Morocco from almost every other place in the region. There are other countries that are undergoing reform. There is no question about that. And many understand that if you are really going to make a difference, women's rights are an important part of change. But, I think what the king has done in Morocco is to decide fundamentally that if you are going to change Islam and reform society, unless you deal with the role of women, then you haven't touched anything that is really at the core of the social makeup and the fabric of these societies. So he's decided this is going to be a thorough approach to reform, and if you build it around women's rights, then you can count on real change.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Do you think that women bring something unique or special to the table in terms of the democracy process?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: They do from one standpoint at least: passion. They bring an unbelievable sense of commitment. Now, maybe it is not surprising because they had been fighting an uphill battle all along. And they understand that if they are passive, or understanding, or acquiescent, or they try to be too reasonable, that they get nowhere. What I have found in speaking to women throughout the region who are active in the cause of women's rights is an unmistakable determination -- they are not prepared to sit back and accept no for an answer, they are not prepared to simply accept that things have to be the way they have always been -- they bring enthusiasm and passion.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Are they always a moderating influence in the region, from your own personal experience?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: On the whole, yes. But there are exceptions in every case. I wouldn't say that you can state categorically that they will always be on the forefront of what I would call progressive, moderate, social, democratic, peaceful purposes. But as a rule of thumb, I would actually put a real premium on promoting the women who are more active. Look, I am someone who committed a major part of his life to pursuing Arab/Israeli peace. And the one thing I can tell you, if you approach that with a kind of dispassionate passion, you give up. You face problems that are so daunting, you face setbacks all the time. And the obstacles are disheartening. And because of that, if you do not bring passion to it, you do not stick with it.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: You met with Morocco's king when you were chief Middle East peace negotiator. Does he strike you as somebody who is a pacesetter for the rest of the Arab Muslim world?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: You know, it is interesting. I met him within the year after he assumed the throne, in 2000. It was maybe nine months after he had become the king. When you are succeeding someone who has been almost an icon within Morocco, to follow on the heels of someone like his father who had been the leader for so long is not easy in the first year or so -- and to be striking a pose where you are moving out in all sorts of new directions. At that time, I think he was getting his bearings more than anything else. If you had asked me at that time do I expect him to be a trendsetter, I doubt that I would have said I foresee that. I will say this. I was struck by one thing at the time more than anything else in my meeting with him. He asked very good questions. He asked thoughtful questions. He wasn't looking for sound-bite answers. He was looking to try to understand what was the real situation.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Were these questions about Morocco, or were they questions about the Israeli/Palestinian peace process? What was he asking you?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: They were much more about the Israeli/Palestinian peace process and they weren't even geared so much to what I was looking for him to do. I was there at the time to see Yasser Arafat, privately.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: This is around the time of the second intifada, right?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: It was, yes. It was during the time of the second intifada. And in fact, it was about ten days before we were to present what became known as the Clinton ideas. The meeting with Arafat was a major contributor to why we presented those ideas. Because at that point, he told me in private he was ready for a deal and I had outlined to him what I thought it would take to do one. Because I was saying to him, "Look, I am not going to fool you. I need to know, is there a deal here or not?" And so, I was posing these kinds of questions to him. Now, I saw the king before I saw Arafat. And the king was asking me did I think it was possible while President Clinton was still there, to resolve everything because the President had invested so much. He had credibility on these issues. You had a circumstance where you had an Israeli government still in power that was seemingly determined to try to reach an agreement. He was hopeful that Arafat might be, although I have to tell you, he wasn't certain with me, because I asked him. It wasn't a one-way conversation. I said to him, "Do you think that Yasser Arafat is actually prepared to reach an agreement?" And he said, "I do not know."
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Let me ask you, why is Morocco held up to this shining light? Why do you and the administration applaud its reform? What is it about Morocco?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I think for one thing, it is the emphasis on women's rights, which is really quite striking and out front of anybody else in the region. If you are really thinking about competing with the radical Islamists, the one issue on which you create an unmistakable difference, the one issue on which they, in a sense want to turn the clock back more than any other, is in the area of women's rights. So, if you are talking about promoting women's rights, if you are dealing with the questions of battered women, if you are really pushing that on the agenda, then in fact it is going to lead a larger approach towards trying to reform Islam in a way that basically creates the right kind of competition with the radical Islamists.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: We are talking about a monarch who banned certain political parties. Are we okay with that?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: What you are going to do when you look at the issue of reform, is commit to a direction. Now, are you going to agree with everything that the king or someone else does in a different country? No, you are not. But when you see someone cross a historic threshold with regard to women's rights, when you see a king respond to terrorist bombings such as the ones in Casablanca in 2003 not only by taking security steps, but by moving on the political front in such a way as to create greater inclusiveness, the fact is there may be certain political restrictions that we should talk to him about. But he has crossed a threshold which is, in a sense, very emblematic of being committed to change.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: What kind of political restrictions would you like to talk to him about?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: The liberalization of political participation and their liberalization of inclusion. I do not challenge so much the approach to security, but I think you have to focus not only on the political side of this, but also on the economic side of it. How do you make the government more effective in terms of delivery of services? How do you ensure there is more good governance? How do you root out signs of corruption? It is important to move in all those areas. Because corruption is what the radical Islamists exploit.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: How does a moderate Muslim country like Morocco spawn so many jihadists?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: In your film you talked about the shantytowns where the bombers who were behind the Casablanca bombings in 2003 came from. If you have a lot of wealth and next to it you have shantytowns, and you have radical Islamists reflecting the Wahhabi or intolerant view of Islam, the austere view of Islam, a world where there are enemies versus the believers, and where the believers have a duty to go after the enemies, that is a very combustible mix. And that is what Morocco had. The influx of mosques that were basically Wahhabi-financed, Wahhabi-run, were the socialization of those sets of attitudes in an environment where there are people who are basically bereft at a time when the sense of being left out or excluded is strong. If you create that kind of a socialization process, you are going to produce jihadists. You have a fertile breeding ground. And so, that is why you saw so many people from Morocco in Europe playing a role in the Madrid bombings. They are close by Europe, close to Spain. There is a kind of natural connection. A lot of people go from Morocco to seek jobs in Europe. And then they get there. And they are part of an underclass. And they are isolated. And they are excluded. And it tends to spawn a deep sense of alienation, but an even deeper sense of an identity which I describe as a jihadi identity.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: And how serious a problem is Islamic fundamentalism and terrorism in Morocco?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I think before the Casablanca bombings in 2003, it wasn't that clear. After 2003, it became very clear. And that is one of the reasons I think that the king launched what is a dual program. One was a pretty serious crackdown from a security standpoint. But the other was a real liberalization process as well, understanding you are not going to solve the problem of jihadis only through a crackdown. I mean, how do you crack down on the circumstances without an outlet, without a sense of possibility? There was one line in the film that really resonates with me. Because I've seen it everywhere. Where there is no hope, where there is an absence of hope and where people feel they are simply left out, and there is no possibility to change their life, that is in fact a very fertile breeding ground for producing more of the jihadis. Where you begin to create a sense of possibility, where you begin to create a sense of hope, then you transform the situation.
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Ambassador Dennis Ross, former U.S. Envoy to the Middle East peace process
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