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DALJIT DHALIWAL: Many people say that U.S.-Muslim relations will never get better until the question of Israel and the Palestinians is resolved. Is that also your view?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: It is my view that you have to be actively involved. Partly because of this whole point about something that is so fundamental to the area you have to show you care about it. You do not have to necessarily be in agreement, but you have to show you care about it. The real issue here is how radical Islamists, who actually do not care about the Palestinians, are not interested in peace. 9/11 took place and was planned at a time when most of the people in the Middle East thought we were going to reach peace. In the year 2000, most of the people in the region thought we were going to be successful. And that was the very moment that 9/11 was being planned. It was being planned precisely because they thought we were going to make peace. Not because they didn't think we were going to make peace. So the issue here is how do you take a recruiting tool away from the radical Islamists. They need anger, they need grievance. And this is one of the sources of anger, it is not the only source of anger. Regimes that are corrupt, that impose on publics, that is a source for anger.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Regimes that we are friendly with as well.
AMBASSADOR ROSS: That has been part of it. When people talk about the American double standard in the region, part of it relates to our support for Israel. But part of it relates to our support for regimes that are seen as being oppressive. And part of it relates to our saying that we believe in democracy, but we are always perceived as using democracy as a tool against those we do not like. And never as a tool against those that we do like. One of the things we have to do is we have to stand by reformers, and they have to know it. The reformers have to know it, the regimes have to know it. You know, if a reformer is going to be arrested, that cannot be met with silence, or only with quiet diplomacy.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Is this administration listening to reformists?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I think from time to time, they have tried. But I think that the reality is that there is a perception in the area that there isn't consistency there. You have got to be fair to the administration. They put democracy on the agenda. And the administration that I was a part of under Clinton didn't. And we should have. But if you are going to put it on the agenda, it has to be more than a slogan. And democracy is not just about promoting elections. Democracy is understanding that you create the conditions for democracy. It is a process that you work. You work with the reformists to see how you can make them more effective. You work with reforming governments to see how you can make them more effective and more efficient in delivery.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Should the United States reach out and engage with Islamists given the strong popularity that they sometimes have in the region?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I am not a big fan of that. You know I want Islamists to also make it clear they are against violence. I do not think we should be engaging with those who believe in violence as a tool of policy. I'll give you an example. The Muslim Brotherhood is very clear on being against violence in Egypt. But they are not against violence anywhere else. They have supported Hezbollah, they support Hamas, they support kidnapping. If you support violence as a tool of policy, then, from my standpoint, you are not a natural partner for the United States. Our natural partners are the reformers and the democrats with a small 'd.' We should be focused on how we enhance their position. We shouldn't be trying to accommodate the people who actually do not believe in democracy, but will try to use elections as a tool to come to power for purposes that I would also see as probably being anti democratic.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: But how are we helping reformers in Egypt, in Algeria, in Saudi, and in the other autocratic regimes?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I do not think we are helping them as much as we could. Now I would say one of the ways you do that is by striking up a real relationship with them on the one hand. Being very clear with the regimes that, in fact, you will stand by the reformers. And if they crack down on them, there is a price to be paid with us, and it will be a public price. Egypt is a friend of ours. Saudi Arabia is a friend of ours. None of these regimes want to be the focal point of a problem.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: How fast should these autocratic regimes change? And if they change too fast, aren't they in danger of sweeping Islamists into power?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I think the issue is one that can only be handled on a case-by-case basis. You have to see what the circumstances are in each country. You have to see what the public will bear in each country. You have to see what the reformers themselves embody. Most reformers will be the first to tell you what they can do and what they cannot do. "We are pushing too fast," is a mistake from their standpoint. Also, it is not only us. When I talk about strategic dialogue, I would do it with the European. I would do it with the international financial institutions, like the World Bank, because they are all on the scene. They know, among reformers, who's credible and who isn't. Not everybody who claims to be a reformer, necessarily, is going to be credible or authentic.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: What kind of external and internal pressure do you think is appropriate?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I think what is appropriate is mostly drawing certain limits. No surprises. With the governments that we have other strategic interests in, we are not interested in pushing them over the cliff. We are not interested in undermining their ability to do things that would also be of benefit. If we want to promote peace in the area, if we want to reduce the risk of violence in the area, we have friends, in fact, who share that interest. Now maybe they are not so keen on pushing towards democracy. But, with them, you are still going to have a discussion where you sort of outline the limits. Where you basically say, "if you crack down on reformers you know this is what we are going to do." No surprises. I learned a long time ago that in negotiations, surprises are never a good idea. If you crack down on reformers, we will be public about condemning that. No surprises. The reformers need to know it too. They need to know, are we there for them or are we not there for them? No surprises.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Do you think that our interest in democracy promotion is waning as of late?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I think that it seems to be taking a backseat to other more pressing threats. That is what the appearance seems to be.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Pressing threats like what?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I think when you have enough instability in the area, suddenly you do not feel like pushing the Saudis too hard. Or you do not feel like pushing the Egyptians too hard.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: But is that not the opportunity where it is really important to engage and to talk about democracy?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: There is no question that the Bush administration is consumed with Iraq, and is very worried about the Iranian nuclear program. Both of those preoccupations are completely legitimate. And when you are looking for partners to contend with those two realities, it is also completely understandable that you have to take a "first things first" approach. But one of the things you have to do is also always maintain strategic perspective. Keep your eye on the strategic ball. So, on the one hand, you want to manage a relationship with those countries that can be important to you on big issues that effect war and peace and at the same time, have a mature relationship.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Do you think that democracy and Islam are compatible?
AMBASSADOR ROSS: I do think democracy and Islam are compatible. Again, look at a lot of reformers. Look at your film. I think your program is a symbol of hope. It shows that, in fact, there are ways to open up these political realities, even if it relates to religion. And those who are interested in reform can reconcile reform and their religion, and show that their religion is consistent with the reform.
DALJIT DHALIWAL: Ambassador Dennis Ross, thank you very much for joining us on WIDE ANGLE.
AMBASSADOR ROSS: It was a pleasure to be with you.
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Ambassador Dennis Ross, former U.S. Envoy to the Middle East peace process
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