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Carol Marin: You met with Crown Prince Abdullah in
2002?
Joseph Biden: Yes, I met with Turki several
times. I've met with the vast majority of the leadership. I've been a
senator 31 years. I know these folks for the last 31 years. They're
individually very decent people. Prince Bandar is one the most appealing
and engaging people in the whole diplomatic core here in the United
States of America. That doesn't mask the problem. They are my problem
now, in part. They better straighten up.
Carol Marin: In the rank order of your problems now
where are they on the list?
Joseph Biden: Well, obviously al Qaeda is number
one on the list. The organized terrorist organizations that are
targeting us and presenting an existential threat to us is number one on
the list. But they're up there in the sense that as long as we're
perceived as being their protectors. We go out there and talk about
democratization. The president makes a speech about democratization.
Isn't it kind of interesting when the G-8 had a meeting and that was the
subject, neither the Saudis or the Egyptians showed up? Name me the two
major powers in terms of population and or influence in the Arab world.
They didn't come to the meeting. Ok. And so we should just start to be
honest about this and say 'look it's not only in our interest, it's in
your interest.' Prince Turki understands this. You saw what he said.
He's in a battle within. I'm taking him at his word. In my meetings with
him in the past, he realizes there has to be some liberalization. You
got others in the royal family saying no. No camel's nose under the
tent, no pun intended. Get their nose under -- they're going to be in
here the whole way. We're going to be gone. We're going to be gone.
There has to be a transition toward democratization. Let me put it
another way. There are certain tides that begin to role in history. You
know what this reminds me of? I use to get criticized a lot back in the
seventies when I said we must do something about apartheid in Africa.
We're on the wrong side of history. We're on the wrong side of history.
And if we do not convince them through gentle prodding and support to
begin democratization they will be radicalized and we'll all suffer.
Carol Marin: You have no doubt in your own mind that
they are still on some level, or many levels, funding al Qaeda or
fostering al Qaeda?
Joseph Biden: None, none, none whatsoever. Not
the royal family sitting. The leadership you spoke to isn't there
saying,' Hey man let's get some more money to al Qaeda and let's foster
terror because now they've gotten a piece of it.' They've been bitten
by it. They've been stung. And they realize they're the target. If I can
make another analogy -- I remember meeting with the president of
Colombia in 1978 and I kept talking about drugs. And you covered this in
your program , WIDE ANGLE, about drug trafficking in Colombia. I had a
meeting in the late 70's with the president of Colombia and he gave me a
lecture on how it's not Colombia's problem, the drug trafficking, it's
just going through Colombia, it's America's. And I said look understand
something if you don't deal with it you're going to become a narco
state. No, no, no. What's a narco state now? Colombia. The royal family
has to understand if they do not stand up to a.) the radical
fundamentalist terrorist on the one hand, and, two, begin to enfranchise
economically and politically and socially the fifty percent of the
population under the age of 30 that is dispossessed, they are going to
reap the whirlwind.
Carol Marin: There are those who think inside that
country certainly that they have seen some change that there has been a
light that's dawned. That the denial from 9-11 that they really didn't
have any participation --
Joseph Biden: Well, think about that, that's
only a couple years. Assume that change took place -- it's in the last 6
months. 9-11 was how long ago -- several years?
Carol Marin: So when it was about us it was
different. Now that it's about them?
Joseph Biden: There you go. And if they don't
move more rapidly it's really going be about them. But in the meantime
we can't continue to play. We can't in our private talks with them
continue to do this thing with 'No, look you got to make your own peace
with them. I understand.' I used to get this line, 'We have to support
Arafat and we have to support Hamas, we have to do this because quite
frankly if we don't they're going to be in our country.'
Carol Marin: That's the Saudis talking to you?
Joseph Biden: That's the Saudis talking. I mean
it wasn't official but this is the message you got.
Carol Marin: This is what they were really
thinking?
Joseph Biden: Yes and what they're really
thinking in terms of the Madrasas and the Wahhabis. You go in and take
care of uncle Mohamed, who is worth a quarter of a billion dollars and
he keeps giving vast amounts of money to build these radical Madrasas in
other parts of the world. You got to go and nail it down. We can no
longer say 'Hey, it's okay. It's okay for you to fund and build
organizations that are spewing hate about America.' It's no longer okay
that you, the royal family, supposedly in charge, run newspapers that
say as they did last year that at Purim, which is a Jewish holiday, that
in order to get the pastries needed at Purim everybody knows that the
Jews need the blood of Arab children to make it. That's the front page
of their papers. And they can't look at me and say 'Oh we don't control
the paper.' There is no freedom of press there.
Carol Marin: Do the Saudis say to you in the
meetings, 'look you want to tell us what to do but you don't do it."
Joseph Biden: 'I don't care what you do, just
understand -- I'm not going to help you if you don't move. You got this
straight? It's real simple.' This is what I say to them. I say 'I'm not
telling you what to do. You don't want to do this, no problem. I'm not
going to protect you. You got that part, right? You do what you want, I
don't care. Fine with me. But don't look to me.'
Carol Marin: Do they ever say to you: 'do you talk
like this to Israel?'
Joseph Biden: Absolutely. And Israel is a
democracy for god's sake. It's not even remotely, remotely, remotely,
remotely comparable. No matter all the mistakes Israel made. It's not
even remotely comparable. It's such a wacko comparison. It's such a
ridiculous comparison.
Carol Marin: But they make it? Do they not?
Joseph Biden: Sure they do because they make a
lot of ridiculous statements. Like they talk about they're open. They
talk they have freedom of the press. Can you imagine an Israeli
newspaper running a news story saying everybody knows that the Arabs in
order for them to celebrate their holidays have to sacrifice Israeli
children? Give me a break. It's such a silly comparison. I say 'you're
crazy. I don't want to hear it. You disagree with Israel's policy, I
disagree with Israel's policy. I got that part. And I tell Israel the
same thing where I disagree with them but don't even remotely compare
your government to Israel's government.'
Carol Marin: At the end of the day is the overriding
concern that we have in this country their oil?
Joseph Biden: Bingo bango. Put it another way.
Can you imagine us wasting any time if there were no oil?
Joseph Biden: So that's why John Kerry, excuse the political advertisement,
is right about the need to develop energy security.
Carol Marin: We need an alternative?
Joseph Biden: We need an alternative. We're not
going be able to be energy independent. That's ridiculous but we can
have energy security and a lot less dependence, a lot less dependence,
but what they don't understand and I predict here -- the American
people, if in fact this continues to be a ground upon which terror moves
and spreads, radicalism continues to be exported, if that is the place
in which that occurs -- America will play twice the amount for gas
they're paying for now and not defend them. So if there's an answer it
doesn't have to be either-or. There has to be beginning moves like
what's happening in Bahrain. They're actually having municipal
elections. They're actually enfranchising people. They're actually
allowing political parties. They're actually allowing elections, for
example, to the advisory commission to the leadership. The idea is they
can do this. We're not asking themÉ look there's an old expression you
never ask another man or woman to act against their own self-interest.
So even thought it would be a good idea if there's a constitutional
democracy, I'm not asking them to give up all that money and power.
They're never going to do it. But I am saying you better start to spread
it. You better start to share it. And by the way I'm not going to make
you do it but if you don't do it, don't look to us. And you know, they
look to us. The truth of the matter is they look to us for their
ultimate security.
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Senator Joseph R. Biden (D - Delaware) is the ranking Democrat on the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations.
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