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MISHAL HUSAIN:
And make some hard choices?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
They're very hard choices to make. If we do not make them, we have a very a much harder life ahead of us because if we do not make the hard choices when the hard choices need to be made we're going to allow both sides, the Israelis and Palestinians, simply to sink deeper into this bloody quagmire. And it's not going to help either of us.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Do you think that we are in some ways seeing a two-state solution develop anyway? We're seeing a barrier being built in the West Bank. Ultimately that separation is happening, isn't it?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
No. You can't tell. This might be the case, but on the other hand, what we might be seeing at the moment is a development of a more solid system of apartheid in the country, where the walls would be walls that surround prisons or cages, where Palestinian populations would be living surrounded by Israeli settlers under Israeli hegemony. So it's not clear what is happening. I don't think there's a future that's happening by itself. I very much believe that the future is what we make of it, and therefore what we see happening can be either in one direction or in another, which is why we need to work on it to make it the future that we can live with.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But what makes you think that your plan might be able to succeed when so many others have failed, when some of the best diplomatic minds in the business have turned their attention to this?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Well this is because this is a grassroots, bottom-up approach. This has never been done. We've always had plans come to us from -- descend from the heavens, so to speak. Worked out by geniuses, if you like, but basically unconnected with the people. This is a plan which tries to empower the people themselves, the ordinary Israelis and the Palestinians who are, yes, angry and frustrated and everything, but who live life as it is and know what's possible. This is a plan to make those people stand up and say to their leaders, "This is the life that we want." And I believe that the people have the power and it is the only party that has power: the people. They have the power to stand up and do this and impose on their respective leaders the solution.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But ultimately it's the leadership which has to carry this forward. The official side has to talk to each other.
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I believe the real power, the real leadership, is the ordinary citizen. And for as long as the ordinary citizen will delegate this leadership or this power to the political leader it will not happen. It's not happened for the last fifty years, as you said. So it is high time in my opinion that the ordinary citizen take the power back to himself or herself and use it in order to impose on the political leader what kind of future the ordinary citizen would like to live. And, as I said, this is too important a question to be left to a political leader. I think not only can it be done, but the more people that have faith that it can be done then it can, then it will be done. It's a question of getting more people to join the faith.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
What role does the United States have in trying to sort out the Israeli-Palestinian conflict?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Well, I believe personally that the main parties that need to be actors in the peace process are the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves. I realize this is not a classical or a traditional way of looking at things. I realize the United States is very important, can be very helpful but --
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But hasn't movement in the peace process only come really when there has been a strong U.S. influence?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
This is a conflict unlike other conflicts in the world in the sense that I do not believe that the United States can intervene in the way that it has done and can do in other parts of the world. It's a very sensitive conflict. There's a lot of painful baggage behind both in the history of the Jewish people, as well as the situation with the Palestinians. It is not a situation which can be meddled with very simply. I think the world can help us, but I believe deep down the only people who can really make this happen is the Israelis and the Palestinians themselves. We have to understand each other. We have to somehow recognize the histories, our mutual histories. We have to recognize the pains that both peoples have gone through. We have to somehow ourselves reach out to each other and make it happen. Nobody can impose it from the outside. You can help us from the outside, but that's all.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
So do you think that the Bush administration's Roadmap is helpful?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I think it's helpful. I think it's certainly helpful, but it being a formal plan, it being a plan that has come from the outside, it's not sufficient. What is also necessary is that in addition, we do create this grassroots movement, this people's movement, this commitment by the people themselves. And I think as we do this, we should try to make the people basically commit to each other. The Israelis need to see the Palestinians commit to peace and vice versa. And so we need to get the people engaged. And we need to define the vision. The Roadmap is good; it's not enough. We need to define also the end game, which is the painful part.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Now what we're seeing President Bush talk about a viable Palestinian state, is that helpful?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
It's certainly helpful. The president actually was far more forward in his formulation of the end game than any other previous American president. And I believe that he is committed, it seems, to the kind of end game that would be workable, but it's not sufficient to have that vision on the part of the U.S. administration. It's just as important, side by side with any formal diplomatic steps to be taken, to create a people's involvement, empowerment of the people. So that when it happens, when things happen, they happen both by the two sides coming together. On the one hand, a formal diplomatic effort. On the other hand, the people's engagement also in the same process towards achieving that vision.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
So if you place the emphasis on the grassroots and the people rather than the leadership and the official position, then how does that make you feel about what the Israeli and the American view on President Arafat, for instance, is -- effectively deciding not to do business with him?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Well, I think that the choice of Mr. Arafat is that of the Palestinian people. [It] certainly shouldn't be the business of either President Bush or the Israelis. On the other hand, I believe that the focus on Mr. Arafat and the leaders themselves, whether it is Arafat or Sharon for that matter, is not what is relevant. The question of whether Mr. Arafat is relevant in my opinion is not relevant -- the question itself. Because what is relevant is whether in fact you can create a dynamic, a process in the two populations. Because if you can create such a dynamic for a process, the leaders on both sides, Palestinians and Israeli, would either have to go along with the dynamic or would have to step aside. It's one way or the other.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
If ultimately we see movement in the peace process once the Americans and the Israelis are dealing with someone like the Palestinian prime minister instead of Mr. Arafat, then is it worth it because you see movement in the peace process as a result?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I believe that if one can achieve the aim of peace, then certainly that would justify whatever the means is in order to achieve that. However, I would question whether in fact you can achieve peace, move forward the peace process, through dealing with one person or another. I think it's far more complicated, as I was saying earlier. And I believe that the focus should not be on individuals, whether they are a specific leader or a prime minister. The process should be on getting the people themselves, Israelis and Palestinians, empowered to stand up and actually express themselves in wanting peace. It is not dependent on one person, whether it is Arafat, or Qurei or Abu Mazen, and the Americans shouldn't think that simply by taking one out and putting another in things will work, that one person can stop a process, one person can make it work. What works is getting, on the one hand, getting the right diplomatic efforts at the international level, and on the other hand, getting the people involved at the local level.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Do you understand, though, the frustration with Mr. Arafat on the part of, say, the Israelis who feel they've dealt with him for a long time and not got anywhere?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I can understand the frustrations of the Palestinians with the Israelis and the frustration of the Israelis with the Palestinians and I don't think that has anything to do with how I feel personally towards Mr. Arafat positively --
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But the personalities involved do matter, don't they, in terms of what they personally bring to a peace process?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I think they matter and the sort of personal elements are important, but there's more to it than just that. Arafat is a major figure as far as the Palestinians are concerned. He's a symbol; he represents history, hopes, and so on. Now this doesn't of course mean that everything that he does from a Palestinian perspective is good.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Does he represent the past rather than the future?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
He represents certainly our past and our struggle. If I were to look into the future, I would wish to see the kind of future which wouldn't need the kind of leadership that he exercises and the skills that he has. If we're looking into the future, into a Palestinian state that's run properly with proper administration and so on with the focus on welfare and education I'd like to have a Palestinian state focus on, certainly I don't think people like Mr. Arafat would necessarily fulfill that function or be able to.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Now you know him pretty well, of course, because you've worked with him, you've had a role within the PLO. Do you think that at this point in time he's the person who can deliver anything to the Palestinians or is his time over?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Well, that's up to him, I believe, in many ways. In other words, he is very well placed to deliver to the Palestinians what we need, which is a commitment to a strategic peace with Israel. And I believe that it is at this juncture that he has to make himself clearer about this. I believe personally that the time of unclarity -- if you like, ambiguity -- is over. It might have helped in the past for different purposes. But I believe at the moment that clarity is needed -- clarity on behalf of the Palestinian leadership that he has to express, as well as on the part of the Israeli leadership. And I believe if there's no such clarity, if he is not able to provide us with such clarity, if he's not able to provide us with the last step towards freedom and independence that we've been craving, then yes, then his time's over.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Is Ariel Sharon the person who delivers clarity on the Israeli leadership side?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
No, I don't think he is clear. He's just as much of a fox, if you like, as any of the military and political strategists we have running around in our region. But what we need therefore as ordinary people is clarity from both sides. And the clarity I mean is exactly the clarity contained in the vision of Mr. Bush. If we go back to his speech in June 2002 -- the commitment by the leaders, by Arafat and by Sharon, to the exact points: a state for two people based on the '67 lines.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But whatever you think about Mr. Sharon, it is under his leadership that we are seeing a plan for a withdrawal from Gaza, something many people never thought that he'd ever envisage.
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
You shouldn't be fooled, by the way, because it may be a step towards peace, but it may be also a step in the other direction. You should never be fooled by Mr. Sharon. He's certainly capable of doing a number of things, among them fooling the partner that he's working with.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
So you don't trust the Gaza pullout plan?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Unless it is connected very clearly to the end game, to a vision, I cannot trust it. If it is connected to the end game, I would go along with it.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
How would most Palestinians view American involvement in their peace process?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
The Palestinians would love to have the Americans come and lend them a helping hand. They believe that next to God stands the United States of America, a closer distance so to speak. And that America has its power therefore to deliver them and to bring them freedom.
They see America as a great supporter of Israel and so there's a lot of hatred and dislike of America the political actor in the Middle East region. On the other hand, there's a lot of love for America at the ordinary level. I think the ordinary Arab loves the ordinary way of life of the American. And this is always a contradiction; it's a love-hate relationship.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Is that true in your view?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Well, yes. I mean, you know, historically speaking, the Israelis have had basically a lot of support from the Americans, from Europe in general. The Arabs, the Palestinians have had less support for different reasons. But, on the other hand, I think that something can be worked out nonetheless where Israel can be supported by the United States. But only to the extent that the United States needs to support it. Mainly to provide Israel the security, but not beyond it, namely at the expense of the freedom of the Palestinian people.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
And how do you reconcile those two sides?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
It's very hard. The American way of life is something that's greatly admired by the Arabs. There are a lot of cultural affinities. The way Americans go around behaving within America, as Arabs see that on films and song, is something that's actually admired by the Arabs in general and the Palestinians in particular. But the political role of America in the Middle East is not something that's right. And I think balance needs to be achieved. And I think once it is achieved maybe the whole triad, Israel, Palestine, United States, can fit back together again.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But do you think the perception on the Palestinian side and perhaps generally in the Arab world that America is so far on the Israeli side is justified? Is it true?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
It's certainly true [that] the Americans have in the past been supportive of the Israeli position. The Arabs have not really had any true support or even understanding or sympathy. That's partly been our fault, maybe, that we haven't been able to communicate our concerns to the Western public, generally speaking to the American public also. But we certainly haven't felt supported in the past by either the United States or the West.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Now you've been known as a moderate Palestinian voice for a long time. You're an academic; you've had a leadership role within the PLO. Today, amid the reality of what we've seen in the film, the reality of the conflict, there are those who say that views like yours are irrelevant. How does that make you feel?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
The first sense or feeling I have is that the person that says this doesn't seem to know what he's talking about. I believe that my views, strange as it may sound, represent a majority trend within Palestinian society. I realize there's a lot of anger and frustration, extremism that we saw in the film.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But do you think more people would support you than would support those that we saw in the film?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I think the personality of a society is certainly complex and [has] different layers, and on the outer layer perhaps you'll find frustration and anger. But I think the deeper you dig inside the depth of that society, the more you'll find that there's the normal desire there deep down in our Palestinian society for living a normal life. And I think, therefore, in voicing my quest for peace for reconciliation there's a sense in which I believe my voice represents that of the majority of the people.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But it's the faces of the suicide bombers that we see shown across the Arab world. It's them that get celebrated, not people like you.
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Well, they get celebrated also by the Western media. They get all the air time they need. The media is not interested in peacemakers. There's a lot of heroic stories of peace makers back home, even in very limited space, and I'm not considered important. But I believe it is the heroic attempts at making peace, building bridges [between] Israelis and Palestinians, that will eventually determine the future. It is not the suicide makers that will determine the future.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
How do you keep thinking about peace and acting in the hope of a peace process in the face of so much violence? So many people now throw up their hands and say, "This is hopeless. We just can't afford to get involved here."
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I felt like this for a long time in the past two or three years that it was hopeless. And then having thought it was hopeless, one day it occurred to me that since it was hopeless what was needed, therefore, required a miracle. And then I said to myself, A miracle is fine, because this is the land of miracles. So why not a miracle, but how does it come about? And then I said to myself, Well, in the past God used to make those miracles happen, but maybe in this day and age, the miracle needs to be created by a man. And so I started thinking maybe we should develop faith, therefore, among people, ordinary people -- faith in life not after death. Faith in life on earth after the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. And I decided if enough people have that faith, then that life will be created.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
But short of a miracle, how do you go about selling this to your own people? What has to happen in order for more than the current 5 percent to sign up to your plan?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Hopefully they can see that, in addition to reason, if people can be helped in any way to make their lives normal, the economic conditions normal; if they can see that what we're doing is not simply selling them pipe dreams or arguments that are good theoretically, but it is possible to bring sometimes normalcy back into their lives -- helping them build up their clinics or getting their football fields or whatever -- then yes, I think the support will increase. But I think what we need is access. And I find that whenever I go and I have access, which is not very often, to villages or refugee camps, I'm surprised by the readiness, the predisposition that I find among people.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Even amongst those that we see in the film, people like that?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Even people like that. I tell you, people might express anger when they hear me speak or when they first see me, but on the whole they would tell me after a long discussion that, first of all, they agree with me that nothing else can be done. And secondly, they will tell me that they respect the fact that at least I'm speaking the truth and I'm being honest.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
So you believe that someone like you with your views can have a dialogue with the kind of person we've seen in the film?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I believe so. I believe the person that we saw in the film, the potential suicide bomber, is someone who needs people like me. And I think they can come back to leading ordinary lives. Now as for the people standing behind them -- the strategists, so to speak -- I don't see any conversation at all over there. But I believe that to the extent that the peace process can move forward, that the forces of peace will be victorious. To that extent those people will become more and more irrelevant. That is, I believe, the future.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
So what then are the misconceptions that you think that we have in the United States about the Israeli conflict or about Palestinians?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Well, I think in general you only see the ugly face of the Palestinians. The Palestinians, many of them in frustration, react to a tragic situation in which they live. And people in the United States only see the ugly aspect of Palestinian life.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
It exists, though. We've just seen it.
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
It exists and I don't think it should be supported, certainly, but if it's the only thing you see about Palestinians -- if you can't see Palestinian children going to school, if you can't see Palestinian painters, Palestinian artists, dancers, if you can't see Palestinians living normal lives then, and you only see Palestinians who go about shooting other people or blowing themselves up or speaking in extremist ways -- then obviously the Americans cannot understand, cannot see a Palestinian in their full image. They can only see only parts of the Palestinian. And therefore I believe that the Americans do not really see us as a whole. They only see bits of us. They see the ugly bits. And those ugly bits exist. I'm not saying they don't exist; they do exist. But if that's all you see of us, then you're not seeing us. And that's the problem with how the West, or the Americans in particular, view us and why they misunderstand us.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
And could the forces of peace win in your lifetime, do you think?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I said before, it's not a question of thinking. I have a strong faith that it will happen.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
What advice would you give to the Bush administration, to Washington in an election year, of what you would like to see them do to help with this conflict?
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
I'd like to see Washington as committed in making peace in the area as we've seen Washington committed to making war. I'd like to see Washington committed to sending out peace envoys to the area as we've seen Washington committed to sending out soldiers. I want America to show itself to be interested not only for the rights of one party, namely Israel, but also the other party, the Palestinians. I want America to stand up and say, Our belief in liberty, of equality is a belief that not only extends to ourselves and the Israelis, but it also extends to the Palestinians because the Palestinians are human beings also and that we deserve our freedom. That's what I'd like Washington to do.
MISHAL HUSAIN:
Sari Nusseibeh, thanks for being with us on WIDE ANGLE.
PROFESSOR SARI NUSSEIBEH:
Thank you.
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Professor Sari Nusseibeh, President of Al-Quds University
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