“It’s an honor to be nominated for an Emmy, especially in such fantastic company, with our colleagues over at Now, Worldfocus, Frontline, P.O.V, and Independent Lens,” said Pamela Hogan, Executive Producer of both films.

Lord’s Children, by Oliver Stoltz and Ali Samadi Ahadi, tells the story of three former child soldiers who fought in Uganda’s Lord’s Resistance Army, escaped from the bush, and have since taken refuge in a rehabilitation center.

Birth of a Surgeon, by Karin Falk and Loui Bernal, travels to Mozambique where, for the first time, midwives are being trained to perform Cesarean sections and other life-saving surgery, significantly reducing the country’s maternal mortality rate.

“It’s really exciting to participate in a film about a subject that’s so important — maternal mortality, an unnecessary loss of life that effects generations — and to be able to find a hopeful story,” said Hogan. “It’s a great example of an African solution to an African problem.”

Coincidentally, Birth of a Surgeon is scheduled to be re-broadcast this week (check your local listings for airtimes). For the encore presentation, host Aaron Brown travels to Mozambique to check in with the film’s main character, Emilia Cumbane, one of the first midwives to go through the training program. She is now the head of the maternity ward at a rural hospital.

The Emmy Awards will be presented on September 21st. Both Lord’s Children and Birth of a Surgeon will compete in the category of Outstanding Coverage of a News Story — Long Form.

WIDE ANGLE viewers often ask what they can do to help. Here is a short list of organizations that are working to help child soldiers in Uganda and around the world. If you know of other reputable groups that you’d like to recommend, feel free to do so in the comments section.

Betty Bigombe Children of War Foundation
Foundation started by Betty Bigombe, a former Ugandan government minister involved in negotiations with the Lord’s Resistance Army

childsoldiers.net
Organization started by a Belgian journalist that helps pay for former child soldiers in Uganda to go to school

Save the Children
International organization promoting the needs of children worldwide. Their child soldiers program helps communities understand and cope with children who are returning from combat

Christian Children’s Fund
An international organization that works to protect children in conflict and natural disasters and psychosocial interventions

International Rescue Committee
Works to identify and care for child soldiers who have been demobilized or escaped from armed forces

BBC Timeline
Ugandan history

CIA World Factbook: Uganda
Information about Uganda’s government, demographics, and economy

Katine
Ongoing series about Uganda in the British newspaper The Guardian

CHILD SOLDIERS

Coalition to Stop the Use of Child Soldiers
Works to prevent recruitment and use of child soldiers, and promotes rehabilitation and integration

Child Soldier Relief
A blog with links to news regarding former child soldiers around the world

Survey of War Affected Youth
Research, programs and reports for Ugandan youth in armed conflict

Amnesty International
About child soldiers

World Bank
Collection of reports on child soldiers

Human Rights Watch
Children’s Rights Division

Lost Children
Website for the full-length documentary

PSYCHOLOGY

International Trauma Studies Program
Columbia unversity program to study, treat and prevent trauma-related suffering

ABOUT THE ISSUE

The region of Northern Uganda was ravaged by one of Africa’s longest civil wars until 2006. For over 20 years, more than 65,000 children, some as young as five years old, have been kidnapped by Uganda’s anti-government rebel group, the Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA), and forced to serve as child soldiers and sex slaves.

Under the command of LRA leader Joseph Kony, these children have been terrorized into committing the worst atrocities, even killing their own families. Lord’s Children follows three former LRA soldiers who escaped from the bush and have since taken refuge in a rehabilitation center.

ABOUT THE FILM

WIDE ANGLE is with the center’s counselors as they help the physically and emotionally scarred children put their lives back together. Jennifer Akelo was abducted by the LRA when she was nine years old, handed a gun and trained to fight. Raped by a rebel soldier, Jennifer now fears that she is HIV positive. Kilama, 13, is rejected by his grandmother who is fearful of his turbulent past. Homeless, he wanders to the nearby city, like thousands of other children, in constant fear of being re-kidnapped by the rebels.

At a young age, Francis witnessed two children executed with machetes for not following orders. Terrified of a similar fate, he fled and now hopes to be reunited with his mother. As these children piece their lives together, the LRA continues to carry out attacks in the region. While the ICC has issued an arrest warrant for Kony in 2005, he remains at large hiding in the jungle of neighboring Congo, where he and his followers have been accused of more child kidnappings.

Under the command of LRA leader Joseph Kony, these children have been terrorized into committing the worst atrocities, even killing their own families. Lord’s Children follows three former LRA soldiers who escaped from the bush and have since taken refuge in a rehabilitation center.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Thank you very much for having me.

AARON BROWN:
Did you see the film?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Yes I did.

AARON BROWN:
What did you think?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
It’s good; it tells a story, but I also think it leaves out some very important aspects of what child soldiers go through. The boys are vulnerable, but you have the girls that are even more vulnerable. Especially the ones that have come out with children who in some cases are not accepted by members of their own families.

AARON BROWN:
The children of the children?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
The children of the children, yes. And so, I think that there’s more to be told about it; that probably the documentary does not quite capture it. But you can’t do everything.

AARON BROWN:
Well, we can’t do everything, but we can do some of it. And I want to talk about as much of it as we can. There is in a child who has been ruined this way–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Yeah.

AARON BROWN:
–this empty look in their eyes. In your experience, are we ever able to restore to that child, childhood?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Very rare. It’s very difficult, because when they tell you the transformation they go through when they are abducted– that eventually a brutality is what makes you get recognition. That you may survive, that is, if you can kill in the most terrible manner, going out to raid. And so, when they come back, the community is hostile towards them too. And they feel very insecure.

Now, there are very few, I would say, that can recapture their youth. That depends on what they have done, how long they stayed in captivity, and yes, pretty much, based on what they’ve gone through, or what they have witnessed. Because some of them come back after they’ve killed their own members of the community and parents. And a lot of them are very suicidal. And unfortunately, there’s no proper counseling to help them, to bring them out of what they have gone through.

AARON BROWN:
Is it guilt? Do they feel guilty?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
They feel– yes, there’s a sense of guilt, definitely. A lot of them– it’s very difficult to know, is it guilt, or are they afraid? Because you’re dealing with a situation here where victims became perpetrators of violence. So, a lot them of course will tell you, “I was forced to, I had to do it, if I didn’t do it, they would kill me.” But then, as they will tell you later, is that time comes when you’re no longer ordered. You do it on your own. You initiate this violence, because it earns you recognition and it earns you promotion, food, and you’re awarded with wives.

AARON BROWN:
This happens to children at the age when their moral compass is defined.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Absolutely.

AARON BROWN:
I mean, there are a number of things about this that are horrible and pernicious, but it is at that particular age when human beings define, to a great extent, what is right, what is wrong, how–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Absolutely.

AARON BROWN:
–how to live in a community.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right.

AARON BROWN:
And once that is defined–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right.

AARON BROWN:
–how do you turn the switch and say, “No, it’s wrong. Everything you know is wrong. Backwards.”

BETTY BIGOMBE:
That’s very difficult, because it would have to be a process. I’ll tell you, a study that has been conducted in Mozambique, which also had lots of child soldiers, where when they returned, the community got involved in their rehabilitation. Only 12 percent of those who came back alive were ever to recapture their childhood, to be able to become productive members of the community. But the rest, somewhere along the lines, just go to waste.

I mean, they also give up because they come out, they think, “After what I’ve done, risking to accept me, how can I live with what I’ve done?” And in schools– some of them were lucky to go back to school– they exhibit very strange behavior. Recently when I was home, and I went to one of the schools, and they were expecting me. It’s one school that has absorbed many child soldiers.

So, a 17-year-old who was abducted when he was seven years old, had returned, was taken in that school, and there were skirmishes. So the principle of the school came to town and said, “You know, we’re trying to restrain a boy who was a child soldier, who picked up a wooden chair to hit another child, saying, ‘I’ve killed 82 people, you’re going to be the 83rd one.’”

So, in defense, if they are offended, or somebody attacks them, that violence always comes back, comes out. And unfortunately, too, the community is not really prepared to be able to understand their problems and to treat them in a manner that they need more understanding; that you have to understand who you’re dealing with. But you also have parents who have come back and said, “This is no longer the child I knew.”

AARON BROWN:
This is not mine. Right, there’s a moment in the film where a grandmother is talking about her grandchild–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right.

AARON BROWN:
–clearly is afraid that this child has come back in a way. Your first impulse is to be kind of angry with her, but she’s not being unrealistic; this child is in some ways someone to be feared.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Absolutely, because it’s so many of them, too, that have threatened to kill their parents, threatened to kill their grandmothers. So, most of them go to what you call home, for a period of time, and then because you know very well that their thought goes to be a normal child, you cannot ask them to do the normal work that you would have asked a child to do.

AARON BROWN:
Do we know much about how they are transformed, or brainwashed, or is it a systematic process, or do they just figure out what’s required of them to survive?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
In a way, yes, because most of them tell you, when they’re abducted, how they’re treated. How if anybody tries to escape, they’re killed in the most brutal manner. And they ask one of the abductees to kill the other one. And if you say no, then– I was dealing with a boy who had to kill his own brother. They were abducted the same night. His brother complained that he had blisters, he couldn’t walk anymore. So he was asked to kill him. And when he was given an axe, and when he didn’t hit hard enough, they said, “We will kill you instead.”

So he said the second time around he had to really hit his brother to kill him. Now, of course he wishes he didn’t do it, probably they should have killed him; he feels extremely guilty. But later, they realize that if you’re brutal, if you show courage, and you did things in the most brutal matter, then you get recognition, you’re given food, if there’s no food, you’re given the looted proceeds and you’re promoted, you’re rewarded. So, very slowly, everybody vies to be that, to show courage and that means show brutality.

AARON BROWN:
Yeah.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right.

AARON BROWN:
Are they selected in any specific way, or are they just randomly abducted?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
They’re just random. They would storm in a school and abduct as many children as possible. They would storm in a village, usually in the night when people are supposed to be home, and they randomly abduct in the internally displaced camps; they would storm in and just abduct. And let me back up a little bit. I’ve talked to so many who have told me their life story of how the fear, when you first go in, how scared you are, how terrified about everything. How the orders– you can’t even try– even if you’re sleepy, there’s no way you can sleep.

They say, “You know, if you’re given an order to carry out, if you don’t do it, they’ll kill you. If they say cook in 30 minutes, you better cook in 30 minutes or else you’re killed.” So, it is order, and order, and order that they live with and they get transformed to live by that order. And of course that personal ambition also comes in– that “I’m going to vie to become a senior commander, because that way, you are in charge of the others, and you also give orders.” And they also have slaves in there. The younger ones become slaves to them.

AARON BROWN:
Boys and girls?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Boys and girls.

AARON BROWN:
Is there a difference in the way that the girls are treated relative to the violence that’s perpetrated on people?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Not necessarily. The girls, of course, they’re soldiers. They become child mothers, they are still the cook. They are the people that carry all the luggage that they have. So they have more roles to do. But my experience when I went out to the bush to meet with Joseph Kony– I found the child soldiers and the girls most brutal. They don’t blink, they look at you straight, you greet them, they don’t answer. But I believe this is all to show that they are courageous when they do all that.

AARON BROWN:
You know, you’re actually one of the few people in the world that I can ask this question to, and I suspect it’s the question that everyone who’s seen the film, or read about this, knows anything about this wants to ask, which is, what kind of person does this to children? Steals them, turns them into killers, sucks their souls right out of their bodies. What kind of person does that? You sat across from that person.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Well, yes I did, several times. In fact, the first time I met with him, what went into my mind was–

AARON BROWN:
Joseph Kony?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Yeah, that’s right–

AARON BROWN:
Joseph Kony.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Joseph Kony– the first time I sat across with him, what went into my mind was, “I wish I could open up his brain and try to understand why he does what he does and the way he does these things.” I wanted to desperately understand that, because it was, “So, this is him, he actually does exist.” Now, at the same time, he’s the kind of person who can talk a lot of sense, too.

I’ve also talked to the wives or the commanders that have been close to him. One of the things they do say is that he’s got supernatural power. He has direct contact with divine powers. So, apparently, he’s been able to predict many things that have happened. And that’s one of the ways he controls their minds, because he has supposedly 12 spirits that give him orders and commands. And he also claims he is working on the spirits’ orders. I also have had a crime profiler conduct an analysis to try to understand this man, because of what he does.

The crime profilers reported that he has multiple personality disorder but he’s also a psychopath. Right, so, he exhibits very many faces, some of them will tell you, “Oh, he’s very kind, oh he’s very humorous, oh he’s extremely smart.” Because the things he talks about– he would gather all these child mothers, and tell them not to use synthetic materials, let your babies lie on the mat, bare mat, because then there’s circulation of air, and that is good for the baby.

When they have pains, I mean difficulty in child delivery, he gives them herbs that he mixes himself. So, some of them believe– and then they say, “Well, then you don’t want to see the other side of him.” Right, that, when brutality comes.

AARON BROWN:
I read once where you said that, and I think it was when you first met him, you wanted to talk to him, to convince him to change.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right, yes.

AARON BROWN:
I mean, if here’s a guy who has a messianic complex, who believes he has a relationship to God, or is a God, that’s different from– those people don’t change. Unless it’s an act, they don’t change. So is it an act, or does he believe it?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
No, he totally believes it, unfortunately. You know, you kind of think you can do the undoable. You kind of believe you can try to convince him, even talk a language he understands best to convince him to give up what he’s doing. In my recent telephone conversation with him, not so recent; this was last year. And he told me– we were talking about the International Criminal Court.

And he said, because I was telling him that he could still come out, and live a normal life. And he kind of said, “Are you kidding me? Given what I’ve done, I know my fate. I have only three options: it’s death, it’s prison, and maybe going into exile.” So, he does know.

AARON BROWN:
So that’s a very rational–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right.

AARON BROWN:
So then, part of him is completely rational, if self-absorbed, and then there are other parts that– one of the things that I find remarkable about Kony and about the whole movement, is like all movements– on the one hand, we tend to see it in very simple terms. He’s destroyed thousands of lives–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Yeah.

AARON BROWN:
Children. But this has gone on for 21, 22 years now. And in its core, there must be some grievance that people are drawn to. He must touch in some people something, or he couldn’t find followers. Not all of his followers are abducted, some are there willingly. So, what is it– the political grievance, or the political issue here– that he sells?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
You’re right in that it’s true at the beginning, he did not abduct people. You know, people joined him voluntarily. But you have to understand the history of Uganda, where it came from. The violence that followed after Uganda’s independence. And the tribal feelings. That was engrained in us, I suppose. We like to blame the British for it, although we’ve had a chance to correct these problems, but we haven’t corrected them.

So when Museveni came into power, there were five different factions trying to overthrow him. And we negotiated with some of them, some of them were defeated. And those who were adamant, who did not want to come up, but they wanted Museveni to be forcibly overthrown, joined him. And these were some smart people; these were trained soldiers, these were lawyers, these were engineers, medical doctors, that were desperate for change because northerners were fighters, they dominated the army during the colonial times.

And that just went on. During Obote, too, that Museveni fought. So consequently, as one group gave up, or got defeated, or reached an agreement with the government, the desperate people moved on to him, or from the defeated armies of Alice Lakwena, who preceded Joseph Kony, so they joined in following tyranny. And apparently, some fallout came when they wanted to fight conventional warfare. But here is a guy that said, “Carry stones, because stones turn into bones.” This is a guy that said, “Carry trees, sing hymns as you go to the battlefront.”

And so, some were killed. It was just painful at the beginning because here are these innocent people who were told to go with a few guns, and carry stones, that would purportedly turn into bones. And they swear the stones would turn into bones. I mean, after today, I was talking to one who said, “You could feel the sparkle in your hand as you hold it.” And they would see fire. Had he worked on their psychology? I don’t know.

But anyway, to answer your question, at the beginning, yes, he did have that– he enjoyed support. And then when I went in, a lot of people turned away from him; they also defected. And then he started maiming body parts; he started cutting noses, lips, and ears. Then he turned people against him. But you still have people who gained from wars, and will support them. They’re not very many, but they are there.

So they’re his confidants, when they loot goods from people, they share it with him. But, generally, he has brutalized his own people so much so that he really does not have that support. And again in that too, to try to escape, and the transformation most of them go through, because now it’s 90 percent children who were abducted 18, 20 years ago.

AARON BROWN:
Why does he– if trust is the right word, why does he trust you?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Does he trust me? I don’t know.

AARON BROWN:
Well, he talks to you, and he listens to you– whether he embraces everything you say, you know, that’s more of a struggle. But he accepts your presence.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Well, one, I always joke about this, that maybe that spirit had not told him that I’m a bad person. That’s a possibility. But the other thing, too, when I initiated peace talks, my mandate was not to mediate, not to negotiate. My mandate was, negotiate surrender. But I–

AARON BROWN:
Just to back up just a half a step. I mean, you literally were sent by the government–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right.

AARON BROWN:
–to what is, correct me if I’m wrong, but your ancestral home.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right, it’s true.

AARON BROWN:
– in the northern part, to be among your people, in that sense, and the mandate, as you just said, was not to negotiate with him, but somehow convince him and convince his followers to surrender?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right.

AARON BROWN:
That was an easy job.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
No.

AARON BROWN:
Oh.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
That’s why I shifted gear.

AARON BROWN:
Yeah, I’d find “Plan B,” too.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right. So, I decided then to persuade the government. But I saw very clearly, it was not going to– the military victory, surrender, what incentives did I have to get them to surrender when they had weapons? When they felt they had reasons to fight. The government army was also not really fighting them, there was so much corruption in the army, that, you know, they knew where the rebels were; the rebels were never attacked.

Two, despite the fact that Joseph Kony is a crazy person, I’m also a very strong believer that military victory will never bring sustainable peace. You can subdue people, you can humiliate them, they feel they have no voice, they’ll go underground– it will resurface. So, my position was then, you know, even if he is a sick, crazy, man who’s done what he’s done, there are some issues that need to be addressed. Maybe just not northern Uganda, but nationally. And this could be an opportunity to address some of these tribal problems, people who feel marginalized. Use the forum to do that.

Right, so I persuaded them, the president, and made contact, secret contacts, and tried to find him by staying in these camps with internally displaced people, and dancing with them, encouraging them to speak up, I was able to identify some supporters that could connect me with him directly.

AARON BROWN:
Was it helpful in this process that you were a woman?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
At the beginning it was very difficult. At the beginning, the rebels– because, I had not just Joseph Kony, I’ve other rebel groups to deal with, too, that interpreted the president’s appointment of a woman as an insult, as lack of seriousness.

AARON BROWN:
Really?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Yes. Well, and also people generally believed, “Oh, she will last a couple of months, she will run out, she’ll get well away from here. She’ll not be able to deal with this.” You also have–

AARON BROWN:
They pretty clearly didn’t get you.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
So, it also took taking risks, great risks, reaching out and staying in places that nobody ever went to, that finally convinced people that I was serious, and yeah, that’s what it was.

AARON BROWN:
I mean, I know that this isn’t about you, and you don’t like to talk about that necessarily, but I think it’s helpful for people to understand how you became not just the woman you are, but how you became connected to that movement, how you’ve tried to bring them out of the bush and into a more civilized world. If people understand what you gave up in the first place. I mean, you went and lived in the villages, you ate the food, danced the dances, sang the songs, hugged the children, took care of– you lived there.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right, yes. Well, I did. At some point, when I thought, well, I had two children of my own that never saw me. I was never there for their birthdays, or Christmas, or Easter, or went to their school. Their father did everything. So, that hurt my relationship with my children quite a bit, especially my daughter, who was very young at the time. But the other thing, too, what really propels you is, you know, you go into these camps, people have gone without food, and when you get there, you give them hope. They smile, they think somebody somewhere cares.

So the question is, do I abandon them, do I just go away and live, you know, comfortably? I’m fairly educated, and maybe I would get a better job, and as you probably know, I came to the World Bank, and I was in Washington working, when I went back in 2004. I was actually getting ready to go on a World Bank mission, when there was this news on CNN splash– the Lord’s Resistance Army went into an internally displaced camp and killed over 300 people. And then newscast footage, of the only person who has met this leader, is showing me.

It was at that point in time that I decided, “No it can’t go on anymore, I can’t stay here anymore. I’m just going to go back. I’m going to go back and persuade the government to agree to a negotiated settlement. I’m going to look up my old contacts, and reestablish contact with the rebels, and persuade them to come to the table.” This belief that military tradition was going to come, and it had gone on for, at that time, close to 20 years. People are dying. Children are not going to school– it just can’t go on anymore. So I decided to go right back and take it on.

AARON BROWN:
I’m a little reluctant to ask this. Let me try. You went at this off and on for a 10 year period. I mean, you talked about your relationships with your own children. You gave up a tremendous amount. You stepped away from it. You went back to it. In all this time, all this energy, all this effort, you know, people were dying. To what extent, if at all, do you feel like that is a failure of yours? An inability to close the deal?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
That’s a good question because in 1994, when I met the rebel leader many times and at great risk, too. But that was not the problem. And we got very close. We had the date and venue agreed upon. The rebels were all out on the street. And overnight, the President comes and gives an ultimatum. And counsels the peace talks. That was totally devastating for me.

I felt a sense of defeat. If I’m asked to name three or four things that have hurt me most in my life, that was one. That is one of them.

AARON BROWN:
Because it became clear to you that you not only had to persuade the rebels, and a leader who is not all there, not totally sane on– but you had a government and people who had influence in the government in the capitol for whom war was good business. War helped solidify their power. They didn’t want peace in the end, did they?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
I would say yes. I don’t think anybody would want war in their backyard. Because if you look at the human cost, the economic cost. But you also had people who were directly benefiting from the war. But that was not the official policy. That was not the position. I think my problem was that Mr. Museveni, the President, did not take the war very seriously.

AARON BROWN:
Because it was in some other place. I mean, it was in his country but–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Well, it was in country–

AARON BROWN:
– it wasn’t knocking on his door.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Well, he visited and spent time. But fighting guerilla warfare is not– the other thing I would say was that why was he believing his commanders all the time? That was my biggest problem. That he really did not know the reality of what was going on. Because he came out again and again to say that we’re going to end the war in two months, or in three months, and it went on. He was certainly listening to his commanders in the field, who definitely distorted the whole picture.

They would tell him that there are now only 15 rebels left when there were thousands. So, my question to him was, “Why do you believe these people who are misinforming you for years? And so, they will tell you, they’re now only left with 15 guns, and you believe it, and then the war drags on. And then you get so many of them coming out.” That’s something I would question. And I will still question because when I was in the field, I used to say, “The war is not going to end militarily.” Because these guys are not engaging the rebels. But, you know, I can’t explain it really.

AARON BROWN:
I guess my point here is that on the one side, nothing I say or think suggests that Kony is anything but, frankly, evil.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Absolutely.

AARON BROWN:
On the other side, the government is not exactly blameless for the continuation of this all. There have been opportunities. In some cases, opportunities you created, or helped create that might have ended this years and years ago. And those opportunities were lost, and how many children, how many adults, how many people have suffered because of those lost opportunities?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Oh, absolutely. Well, you know, you can even say that even abduction of children in camps, government is to blame. For not providing security or not protecting people in the camps. Yes, you absolutely can say that. There are many factors. Because when I go back– let me talk a little bit about the challenges of mediation. You will always have spoilers. People who– they’re not part of the government. But maybe they’ve been benefiting from it.

I talked about some of the soldiers creating ghost soldiers. So instead of having 700 fighters, he only has 200. So that the salaries of the rest is in his pocket. He obviously does not want that war to end. You have ordinary people who are out on the street. We’re sending wrong information to the rebels. We’re giving them wrong messages. “Oh, she wants you killed.” You have also– don’t forget that the government of Sudan, Kartoum was supplied with guns. Was giving sanctuary to the rebels. And seriousness to peace talks also depends on supplies to the rebels. If they’re still receiving supplies. They might be reluctant to talk.

AARON BROWN:
I was reading the other day that there were exiles. You’d gotten in exiles in Britain and the United States who were sending money to keep the rebels in supply. So, there are lots of actors in this–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
There’s very many actors. And I believe, in 1994, the President was misadvised. He was misadvised. And we even had Acholis, from the same tribe, in government writing to him to tell him not to allow me to continue. Because they looked at it as a personal gain. As a, you know, a victory.

AARON BROWN:
A victory they didn’t want you to have?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Yes. That a woman, if I was going to bring peace to– you know, if many times it had been made and not succeeded because some of them had been with the rebels. And the rebel leader had refused to talk to them. So, you have very many players that really ruined the process. And you always have to guard against that. Have your own intelligence. Who is talking what to whom. And what are they saying.

What kind of information is getting to the rebels? That confuses them. What information is going to the government that probably– even when I went back in 2004, and we got close again, I was not well-received by some military officers.

So, you always have very many players, who are looking at their self interest as the most important thing. And they will manipulate the situation. They will, you know, cause a lot of confusion that can undermine them in their entire process.

AARON BROWN:
And–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Not to mention, proliferation of mediators. You have NGOs clamoring to be the actual mediators. So, there’s very many challenges.

AARON BROWN:
So, it’s, you know, evil meets jealousy meets power meets–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right, you got it.

AARON BROWN:
–and not to sound naïve in all of this, but at the end of the day, you can have evil and jealousy, and power, and politics, and history in all of this. And what I see are hundreds or thousands of children whose lives have been stolen from them. I see hundreds of thousands of people who have been brutalized in ways that are unimaginable. Tens of thousands of people within camps. Starving in some cases. Certainly not unusual for them to starve. And don’t you– I do. Don’t you wonder– how does this madness end?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Precisely. You kind of cannot understand, oftentimes, the mind of spoilers. Why do they do it. Because the other thing too is that everybody wants to be directly involved. And if they are left out— you cannot take the entire tribe. If they’re left out, then they must undermine it. Yeah.

They will write letters and drop them off for the rebels, not to trust. So going back to the question of diasporas supporting the rebels, I do not know. It’s difficult for me to say for a fact that they are actually sending help. Because I do not know. I don’t know whether anybody has investigated. But as for verbal support, some of them do. They’re thousands of miles away. Their children are going to see. They do not know that these people in the camps, food comes once or twice a month, or once in two months. And it lasts eight days, and then they have nothing else.

When they try to go out and supplement, look for vegetables in the wilderness, they’re blown up by landmines. They don’t get to read about it. They’re comfortable. And for them, they think they are hurting Museveni if the war continues or humiliates Museveni if it continues. So, while I cannot substantiate, or I have no reason to believe that they actually are shipping or sending money, or shipping military wares, the verbal support, the moral support is definitely there.

AARON BROWN:
Can we go back? I just have a couple more things. But I want to go back to the role of women in this. Because I think I sometimes don’t quite get how women are seen in African culture. Because on the one hand, like in all other cultures, they are seen as lesser players. But in another sense, they’re somewhat revered. I mean, I actually think that people are saying, “No, actually they’re smarter, saner, more decent. And so, if a woman comes to us, we need to be more respectful. We need–” Am I right? And is that part of the conflict here?

That on the one hand, you were seen one way, but on the other hand, you were taken in?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
That’s true.

AARON BROWN:
Yes.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Yes. It took a lot. Like I said earlier on, I was dismissed. Nobody took me seriously. Insulted. And while some friends said, “Well, the President wants you dead. Why does he send you to this place?” So, it really took all that living with these people who were bearing and taking the brunt of the war. It was taking risks. Going into these places when you’re not even sure whether you’re going to come out alive. I’ve seen landmines blow up people right ahead of me, killing them. It means going through ambushes. And you don’t give up.

The next day, you’re still there. So, it is that stamina, that determination that I believe the rebels, the people saw in me. And therefore give me support.

But you also have the ordinary woman. Just like I said in the camps. You go in. They still want to dance for you, to entertain you, and they’ve gone without food for days. But they’re happy that you are there. They’re looking up caring for the sick. They’re also going out, taking risks to look for food. To look for firewood. To look for drugs to give to their families. They hold the communities together. And to me, these are the real heroes. Because they don’t give up. They’re so resilient.

I was talking to a woman. Talking to a woman who came to church to me and said, “Next time, you’re going to meet with the rebels, that Joseph Kony, I’m going to go with him and with you. My three sons were abducted. I don’t know where they are.”

So, I said, “Okay, I will let you know.” But of course, I couldn’t take her. So, the following time, she heard I had gone to the bush again. She came back and said, “Well, you didn’t take me. I want to look at that man in his eyes and ask him where my children are. When LRA abduct, when they rape, when they destroy, when they kill, I say, I’m not a mother of killers. I’m not a mother of rapists. I’m not a mother of people who destroy for the sake of destruction.” Then I said, “You know, I can’t. Because that will jeopardize the peace concept. But I will find out where your children are.”

So, I did my research. I found them. Both of them were dead. When she came back, and I said, “I’m very sorry they’re dead.” Tears rolled down. And she said, “How did they die? Was it painful? Were they just shot? Were their bodies ever buried or eaten by animals? Is there somebody that could take me so that I could pick up the bones and–”

Now, a woman– and many of them who have gone through that, will still receive me with a big smile, and hug me. And she’s so despondent at the same time about life. But you know, she’s not giving up on the other children who are still alive. She’s still going to get up the next day. And care for them. And look for food. And try to get them educated. So, to me, these are the real heroes. They are the people that really keep you going. Because you look at them and say, “If this is what she’s going through,” and they’re in thousands– you know, who am I? What am I? The little that you can do is to keep her hoping, and alive.

AARON BROWN:
And is it a false hope?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
I don’t think so. I think the peace process has gone to a level that now, people are trying to go back home to rebuild their homes. I think it’s genuine hope in here. Although, what worries me, and this is where I always keep saying that there is a need to protect people. The Lord’s Resistance Army has relocated. Half of them are in Congo. Half of them are in Central African Republic. Part of them are in southern Sudan. But they have resumed abduction of people and children in these countries. And they’re training them. So, you have the problem exported to these neighboring countries. In 1994, 1995, after the first initiative failed, LRA withdrew for almost nine months. And people were home. Nobody expected them to come back. But they had gone to Sudan.

They walked thousands of miles. Came in one night, and killed 300 people in one little town. So, can we believe that now that they’re several hundreds of miles away that they will never be able to come back? That is one question. So, protection must given to people in Central African Republic, in Congo, and Sudan, so that LRA does not rebuild its manpower strength.

AARON BROWN:
The endgame, as we say, is complicated here. And one of the complications seems to be that the world court has indicted Kony and three of his commanders. And that’s created an obstacle in some ways, some would argue, to a negotiation. Do you agree with that?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
First of all, my take is that without the arrest warrant, probably LRA would not have demonstrated seriousness at the peace talks. I think International Criminal Court has been a catalyst in getting LRA to go to the table and talk.

But of course, the question is what incentives does he have to come out with the arrest warrant hanging in there? I also want to realize that there are victims. In fact, what victims were telling me the other day is that, you know, “We desperately want peace. But we’re also very worried that peace agreement will be reached. And Kony will be given a package. Maybe a house, a car, and guns, and salary. He’ll be rewarded for what he’s done. For having killed us. For having abducted our children. For having raped our people.” Now, I just told you this story of this woman which will ask me– and painfully. When she was walking away, she told me how, you know, whether she could pick up the bones somewhere and give them decent burial.

When she finally wiped out her tears, as she was going away, you know what she told me? She said, “I still have two sons left. They will also revenge.” Now, if there is no justice, it’s very likely that victims would want revenge. So, while they desperately need peace, what they’re saying is, let the international court seek– let the whole thing be sequenced. Let’s have peace first. And then take him to court.

AARON BROWN:
Right. But, I mean, just going back to something you said earlier– believe me, I’m not making an argument for anything that allows evil to live well. I’ve seen enough of that in my life. Whether it was the former dictator in Haiti, or anywhere else. You know, that’s not the argument.

But people who make the argument say if he believes as you told me he believes that his life is down to three not great options– death, prison, or maybe life in exile– do you understand why some people would say if the price of an end to this brutalization of people is this guy goes away and lives in exile, it’s an imperfect end? It’s not certainly justice by any reasonable definition of justice. But it’s the best you can get after 21 years. Is that reasonable?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
I have spent a lot of time with victims to be able to get a sense of what they feel about this man. There’s no doubt that everybody is so desperate. In fact, to tell you the truth, what has been quoted often times that “Oh, the Acholi people are saying they ready to forgive him.” This is all very much driven by a quest for peace. Okay, but when that reality– somebody that one day, you know, he’s alive. He’s had 200 children with those children, those young girls. He has done so much. Somebody somewhere will one day say, “We want justice.” At some point.

Of course, for the time being, they’re so desperate that they’re saying, “Forgiveness.” Those who have come out already, the rebels, they’re experiencing a lot of difficulties.

Because the community’s really not quite forgiving them. There’s a school, which is exclusively for LRA, you know, this built by the Belgium government. Children born in captivity. Those who fought. Those who are now old. Once you find them in that environment, they’re happy, they’re dancing. Of course, they have a lot of flashbacks, and they’re violent among themselves. But get them to go out on the street, they’re dead scared that their victims might spot them out. And might take the law in their own hands.

So, while the demand for peace is very, very high, there are also people who feel that justice must be served.

AARON BROWN:
But here’s where I see the dead end, if you will. Even if Kony is killed, and his commanders are killed, and they’re all wiped out, there’s still– no one ever forgives, I don’t believe, the people or the movement, or the individuals who stole children, brutalized children, brutalized communities. That forgiveness is not– that’s not gonna happen. There’s always going to be the– you can’t kill everyone who has lost somebody, and you can’t kill everyone who’s killed somebody.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
That’s true.

AARON BROWN:
So, how does this end? How does this end well? Or, because what you just said, I think, you know, I’m not sure you meant it quite this way. But it’s what I heard. Is that every time this kid leaves that school, that protected environment, he lives in fear. And he lives in fear with good reason.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
I believe so. In the documentary, the young boy says, “Well, you know, the first few days, you’re well received. And then, later, it becomes very difficult. People are pointing you out that you did that.”

When the ritual before the performance of the Acholi traditional ritual of forgiveness, as he was waiting, he whispered that he was very nervous. And the woman asked him, “Why are you nervous?” He said, “I’m so scared of people. For the first time, I’m going to see them. And they are going to see me.” So I suppose this is something that we do not have one single solution to the problem. Because it’s far too complex.

As I said earlier, you’re dealing with a majority that are victims that became perpetrators of violence. So, there’s really not going to be one single solution.

It would have to be a hybrid of some level of justice. Somewhere could truth and reconciliation be a remedy in this situation. Could taking two or three to civil court be a solution, so that victims feel justice has been served. Some of the former rebels themselves were telling me, “You know, we go out to rent little huts in the community. But you conceal your identity. Because if anybody knows, you’re the prime suspect if anything goes wrong. And then, you have victims talking, saying, “Well, they’re here back alive, but others, we’ve never seen their bodies. Or so-and-so is killed.” So, it’s a community that’s been greatly scarred.

But what is required, as I said earlier, is being very proactive in talking to the people to find solutions to this problem.

AARON BROWN:
The sad truth is, these are the sort of resentments that live on for hundreds, sometimes thousands of years.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
That’s true. That’s true.

AARON BROWN:
This is not somehow unique to Uganda, or Africa. You can see it in Eastern Europe between Serbs and others. You see in the Middle East. I mean, and someone says, “Well, where did this begin?” You say, “Well, this began 1,000 years ago.” And 1,000 years from now–

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Right. Yeah, it is. It’s very complex. It will take time to reconcile the community. Like I always say, that, you know, when the same people have killed one another, and you’re trying to reconcile them, and try to say, you know, live together and start loving one another. It’s not as easy as two people in different countries have killed one another, or have hurt one another.

Because later, they don’t have to deal with one another directly. But these are people who will have to cohabit. Somehow find a way of living with one another. So, it will have to be a process. And you’re right to say it will take years to heal.

AARON BROWN:
You’ve been at this a long time. In some ways, it occurs to me that you didn’t so much seek it out as it sought you out. Somehow, you became this person. How are you changed by it? How are you different because of it? Are you a more optimistic soul, less optimistic? How is Betty different?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Betty’s hopeful. She sees a real future that the war is over. But at the same time, I know very well that it doesn’t just happen like that. There’s lots of challenges ahead of us. Reconstruction. Putting up schools. I’m now more active in educating– that it is so important to address some of the underlying causes of the conflict in Uganda. Take this opportunity to reconcile the people. First of all, the Acholi community, the laboring districts that have been hurt. And nationally. We need to look back at the time that Idi Amin came into power.

Can this be resolved? I’m a strong activist for sustainable peace. That it took long to go this far. It took a lot of pains. But definitely, there are dividends. So, one most always deal with these complex situations with hope. Because at the end of the day, after trying and trying, and a lot of times falling down, that it is important not to give up. And I think my spirit is just never give up.

AARON BROWN:
Why does he go after child soldiers? Why not adults?

BETTY BIGOMBE:
You know, first of all, you need to understand that the problem of child soldiers is not only Uganda. It’s not only Joseph Kony. With Sierra Leone, Liberia, Sri Lanka, Columbia, and many other places. I think, first of all, these warlords find it easy to transform the mind of a child. Children walk very fast. And now there are all these weapons that are very light. You know, you train them. You train them to use it. They’re reckless. They, you know, they go. They do exactly what they’re told to do. It’s very easy to manipulate them. So, warlords more and more are going after child soldiers for this– they act as spies. They go and find information. They’re sent, in the case that I’ve seen them, they climb up trees to see where the so-called enemy is. They carry heavy luggage. So, they find them useful. If you took somebody at me, at my age, I’m not going to walk fast. I’m not going to walk fast. You know, it would be difficult to change me from what I am today.

So, more and more painfully, and I think it really is a very serious problem. That warlords are using child soldiers more in the DRC/Congo. But the recent indictment of one of the warlords by the International Criminal Court from DRC– Mr. Lubanga was then indicted. And he’s sitting in the Hague. It’s a very positive step. Because I look at that as a deterrent in future for warlords not to abduct and use children in wars.

AARON BROWN:
You know what I think part of it is? I don’t know. I can’t prove this. There’s two parts. One is that children want to be loved.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Absolutely.

AARON BROWN:
And, in a weird way, they’re not that picky about who loves them. They want to be loved.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Absolutely.

AARON BROWN:
And the second thing is that children are children. And so, climbing the tree and spying in a child’s mind can be a game. It’s not as horrific as sometimes as we see it. This ability to rationalize. And adults know that about children and take advantage of that in children. And, I mean, no one ever should pretend that these people haven’t taken horrible advantage.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Of course.

AARON BROWN:
I’m grateful for your time, and your honesty with us. Thank you so much for joining us on Wide Angle.

BETTY BIGOMBE:
Well, thank you very much for having me. And I think this is a great job to bring the story out to the American people. On the one hand, I want to express my gratitude that you’re doing what you’re doing. Thank you.

AARON BROWN:
Thank you.

Children are sought after because they are obedient, daring and abundant. Many child soldiers are abducted or recruited by force; others join as an escape from poverty, for the perceived sense of belonging and protection, or to avenge violence against family members. For some children, armed groups are a source of food and their best hope for survival.

The map below looks at conflicts where child soldiers — defined by UNICEF as boys or girls under the age of 18 — have served in recent years.

OLIVER STOLTZ:
My name is Oliver Stoltz. I’m a German filmmaker and producer, writer, and director of Lord’s Children, together with my partner, Ali Samadi Ahadi.

WIDE ANGLE:
Can you talk about how you came to this film, and what interested you about it?

OLIVER STOLTZ:
When I lived in Los Angeles, I stumbled on the internet over a study of the U.N. about the fate of children in Northern Uganda. And it was interviews of children who have been abducted and had been forced to kill, and I never heard about his before. I was looking for more information, and was going after this whole situation in northern Uganda, trying to understand it. My idea was a fiction project, a feature film, but then the next coincidence came when I met my directing partner Ali Samadi Ahadi. And we found out that he too as a child was involved in war. We both were very early on in conflict zones, me in Namibia, southwest Africa before independence, when there was also a rebel war going on. And my partner was forced into the Iranian army during the first Iran-Iraq war, and had to flee Iran in order not to be killed in a minefield. They used children at that time to clear minefields.

What happens if you’ve been made into a murderer, and you’ve been made to do something, which is hard to realize even for a grownup. As a child, how do you live after this? How do you cope with what you’ve been through? And we started investigating about trauma theory, met people and investigated different conflicts that involved child soldiers.

WIDE ANGLE:
How did you gain access to these camps?

OLIVER STOLTZ:
We got access to the rehabilitation camps in northern Uganda through the Catholic Church in northern Uganda. They helped us because they were running through the organization Caritas, they were running a camp right in the epicenter of the war, which was created out of children who returned and said, ‘here we are and that’s where we want to be treated’. And so the Church started to build a center around these children. We went where other people feared to go and that’s how we got access.

WIDE ANGLE:
So, what were the obstacles of filming in a war zone? Was the camp ever attacked?

OLIVER STOLTZ:
The camp was attacked almost every two, three months. The obstacles were on one side the rebel attacks in the whole area that traveled to the war zone. There were on a daily basis attacks on the street. On the other side, it was the government that prevented journalists, people they couldn’t control, from going into areas where they couldn’t control them. So that’s why we decided to shoot without shooting permission and with small equipment. The biggest fear we had was traveling into, going to the rehabilitation center in Pajule, and making those moves to other places. It looks like, in the film, this is just an easy drive but this was like playing lotto with our lives. Because there were attacks on the street everyday.

WIDE ANGLE:
How long did you follow these children?

OLIVER STOLTZ:
We followed them over a course of six to eight months. We traveled four times to see their development.

WIDE ANGLE:
Can these children be rehabilitated and reintegrated?

OLIVER STOLTZ:
Oh, absolutely. I’ve seen it myself. There is something in us human beings, no matter how awful life has been treating you, especially in children, and you can never destroy hope. All these children — they’ve been raped, they’ve been forced to kill, they’ve witnessed killings. All of us grown ups would break and would be traumatized for life. But those children, they have different ways of coping with it. But what kept them going was hope for a better life. And you can work with this hope, and this is what those social workers do. All you need to give them is opportunities, instead of stigmatizing them and keeping them separate, you have to get them back into society, give them an education. That’s the main thing everyone wants. To be some way of supporting themselves and making a living. They’re still outsiders, and the only thing those children have learned for a long time is killing, so you need to give them other tools.

WIDE ANGLE:
We’ve spoken to a few psychologists who have said the community that they return to and the way that they are accepted are so vital to their reintegration and rehabilitation. Did you find that?

OLIVER STOLTZ:
Yeah. It is. The boy that best coped with the whole thing was Francis. Because he had a very loving family that really took care of him. He now has a scholarship. He’s really on his way to maybe even go to university. Kilama, the other boy, the family wasn’t there. No one is really being a guide for him. I try to do what I could from Germany on the phone, but you can’t be a parent on a long distance phone line. I think your trauma therapists are right. It’s love, acceptance and coming back to a society that is not stigmatizing you and having an opportunity in life.

WIDE ANGLE:
What is one moment or one experience that stays with you from making the film?

OLIVER STOLTZ:
The place where we stayed in the rehabilitation center was a few weeks before we came it was attacked by rebels. And Francis was one of those rebels who attacked the place where he fled to later on. So he described to me how he was going after the priest, the same priest that was there who was our host in this place. And how he was trying to find cookies, and where he was looking, and it’s the same kind of place where every night we shut iron doors and hope that no one was attacking us.

WIDE ANGLE:
OK, well one last question, this film was shot in 2003 and 2004. Have you followed up with these children in the last four or five years?

OLIVER STOLTZ:
We paid for their education after we finished filming until they are on their own legs. So Kilama went to high school for two years, he dropped out. He started his own business. He has a wife now, he is like selling soap and beer and small things and we gave him starting money for that. Francis is still going to school. Jennifer got into sewing school and then we bought her a sewing machine. Everything fell into a fire so we gave her more money to start up again. She’s still together with her husband. She got a little boy, she named him Ali after my partner.

WIDE ANGLE:
Thank you, Oliver.

OLIVER STOLTZ:
Thank you very much.

Healing takes place on local and national levels. In some African communities, tribal cleansing ceremonies welcome former combatants back into the community. Truth and reconciliation commissions scour countrysides and refugee camps to collect wartime stories to better understand the casualties of war, in an attempt to unite and move forward as a nation.

WIDE ANGLE visits the Liberian community on Staten Island and speaks with Mike Wessells, a psychologist who has worked with war-affected youth in over 15 situations of armed conflict, including Afghanistan, Sri Lanka, Colombia, Sierra Leone and Liberia.

Photos of spiritual cleansing ceremony courtesy of Lindsey Stark.

Over the past year, IRIN, the humanitarian news and analysis service of the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, has collaborated with the Uganda Women Writers Association (FEMRITE), to produce “Today you will understand,” a collection of the personal war stories of 16 women.

Five female writers from FEMRITE canvassed northern Uganda to interview women affected by the war between the government and the rebel Lord’s Resistance Army (LRA). Most of the women were still living in IDP (internally displaced person) camps. The stories were recorded and aired on Ugandan radio stations; three are in English and featured below.

Source: IRIN Radio in local partnership with FEMRITE, Uganda Women Writers’ Association.

TRANSCRIPT:

EUNICE:
A child soldier who was abducted at 12 and spent eight years in the bush, married to a rebel commander.

Eunice I grew up with my mom, two kids and my father. I went to school but I was abducted when I was 12 years in P7. It was night when we were just sat outside after eating supper. From nowhere we saw the rebels coming. They just took me up, I left my father and my mother there and the other siblings.

They just beat them and they took me. From there we moved on foot up to Sudan. It was very long. On the way we faced some difficulties, there was no food, we could go to some villages, the nearby villages and we get food from there. We loot I mean. We even met some UPDF soldiers and they chased us seriously but we survived.

I remember we found a man and then from there they told the man that he should go with us to Sudan. He was resisting so they chopped him into two pieces.

Interviewer At that time you were telling us you were around 12 years old. Were you the youngest person in that group or were there other people who were even younger than you?

Eunice There were other people who were even younger than me. There was a boy who was just seven years and he was the youngest. He suffered a lot. You know, we took five days from Gulu where they abducted me from up to to Sudan. But that boy his legs swelled. He was just there, he suffered a lot.

Interviewer’s Interlude (reading) This time tomorrow: Yesterday I woke up here. Today I wake up here. Tugging at my sagging tummy, listening to the old tune, asking myself, “will it be the same this time tomorrow?”

Eunice When they abducted me we were many girls, we were age 12 and above. So they selected us and gave us to the rebel commanders. For me they gave me to a man, he was too big.

Interviewer Were you the first wife or you were the first in line? You were one of the many wives?

Eunice In fact, I was the seventh!

Interviewer You were the seventh wife?

Eunice Yeah.

Interviewer Did you have any special duties as the wife to the rebel commander?

Eunice There was not any special duty. In fact all it was about suffering. Forcing you into sex when you don’t want, beating you up when you have done a small mistake. Moving – you don’t stay in one place – without eating anything. One kind of suffering I faced was cooking too much food for many army commanders. And you know those other women (wives) they also used to mistreat me. It was so difficult, so many problems, eh, even I can’t tell.

Interviewer Was there any good side to being the wife of a commander compared to those people who were maybe not married to the rebel commander?

Eunice At least the army commanders after looting things like clothes, food, they bring and you also have a share. But now those (others) they have to suffer, sometimes they stay for a week without eating but at least I can eat at least one meal a day.

Interviewer For how long did you stay in the bush?

Eunice I stayed in the bush for eight years. I saw some changes at least. When I had just gone, I used to hate the fighting. I used even to feel pity when they are killing people, but as I was getting used to it I saw it as normal and I also wanted to learn how to shoot.

Interviewer Did you ever hold a gun maybe during your stay?

Eunice I did not hold one but I had wanted to.

Interviewer They did not allow you?

Eunice No.

Interviewer Is there any special reason because we understand that in the bush everyone has a gun?

Eunice The other army commander refused me but me, I had wanted to.

Interviewer To learn how to shoot or to hold a gun?

Eunice How to shoot.

Interviewer What other changes did you see? When I had entered in my first year, life was like this, and now eight years later life is like this. Were things going for the better or for the worse?

Eunice Things were going for the worse. As I was married, I was the seventh wife, there were six other wives and they used to mistreat me. The war was just increasing and Kony was becoming more stronger and stronger because he was abducting more and more especially the boys. They could train them for one month on how to shoot, how to loot things and they get everything.

Interviewer’s Interlude (reading) When they came, you said they would go. You said they were insects. You laughed at them. You said they would not be here this time today. Today, guns rock us to sleep. The burning camps with our chapped lips and noses. Crying babies rest their lips on nippleless breasts. You still blot on our wounds, like a rat and its spray.

Eunice Life in Uganda as compared to Sudan is so fantastic and interesting. I got an opportunity of going back to school. I am even being helped with other basic things like clothes.

Interviewer Did you ever think of coming back to Uganda when you were in Sudan?

Eunice No, because escaping itself was very difficult. I saw many people killed on the spot for trying to escape.

Interviewer It seems you got used to seeing death every day when you were an abductee. How did you manage to escape?

Eunice It was one day when the UPDF soldiers had ambushed us. As they were trying to shoot the Kony rebels, some people escaped. Some were killed by the UPDF soldiers but for me I was hiding somewhere. All those Kony rebels had run away, so me I remained somewhere in the bush, so, when I saw that there was only UPDF soldiers who were remaining, I surrendered. I raised up my hands, they saw me and they came for me. They put me in the helicopter then we came to Uganda. At that time, I was the only one.

Interviewer I would like you to tell us, do you remember any touching event when you were still under Kony’s rebels?

Eunice While I was still there in Sudan, there were these boys, they had just recruited them. They told one boy to go and to loot food in Kitgum. He refused, and, they just put him in a big mortar, very big, they just put him in there and they pounded him.

Interviewer After you were rescued by the UPDF, how did your life go on from there?

Eunice After the UPDF had rescued me, they took me to GUSCO. It is an NGO that helps abducted children. I stayed there for two months and they started telling me about going back to school. The next year, they took me to a secondary school in S1. Life at school was not so easy. Students would laugh at me because I looked different from them. [GUSCO: Gulu Support the Children Organization – local NGO offering psycho-social support, education and advocacy for war affected children]

Interviewer What do you mean you looked different from them?

Eunice I mean my body, wounds. So life was not easy for me. They would discriminate (against) me. Even in the dining room, they do not want to sit with me. But, as time went on, students got used to me and I started being friendly with them, they also started being friendly to me.

Interviewer Did you try looking for your relatives or are you now alone? What happened when you came back?

Eunice When I was in S3, I tried looking for my relatives but I failed to find my parents and the other two siblings. I only found my auntie, a sister to my father, and she is the one who took me in.

Interviewer What about your village, haven’t you tried going back?

Eunice I went there and I found that our house got burnt down.

Interviewer Interlude (reading) You gave them days waited. Months. Now its years we wait. Will it be the same this tomorrow?

Interviewer You are in S6 as we are talking. I can see that you have come a long way and you are a very strong woman and even your English is good compared to the life you’ve gone through. I would like to commend you for that.

Eunice Thank you madam.

Interviewer But again I would like to find out, what are your hopes for the future – how do you see yourself in the future?

Eunice At University I want to do civil engineering, I become an engineer. Maybe after studying my course, I will also go and work for an NGO like GUSCO. I would like to help the ones who were once abducted. From there I will become a successful woman, married with children.

Interviewer You want to lead a normal life?

Eunice Yes.

Interviewer You seem to be one of the few lucky ones who come out of such situations and to lead a very good life. What advice would you give to those people who were once abducted and have not had help like you?

Eunice I encourage them to have hope and to also seek help. And I also encourage them if they were once studying to go back to education. Because that will be helpful to them.

Interviewer Do you have anything you would like to add as we are winding up. Maybe something you would like to say?

Eunice I encourage the people of Uganda and Gulu most especially, to work hand in hand with the government so that the peace talks that are going on go on successfully because we have suffered a lot.

—–

JOSEPHINE:
A mother whose daughter was abducted and trapped in the bush for eight years.

Josephine It was in 1995 when my child was captured by the rebels and the child was Nancy. That child was captured during nighttime and after she was captured we really suffered. Even before the child was captured we were also suffering because of the rebels. We couldn’t even sleep in the bush, we could not even eat, every time we were beaten by the rain in the bush. After that, when the child was captured, the child stayed for eight years in the bush before she tried to escape.

When she escaped we were also in danger because the rebels did not like the child to escape from them. After the escape, the rebels began to disturb us and they were planning to even kill us but, good enough, we were informed and we ran away from the home where we were staying. And after our departure, the rebels came and found that we were not there. They captured a certain boy and they tried to make inquiries from that boy so that he could tell them where we were. Because they had the names of killing us with the parents of the child.

And after that, we saw that the case is very serious, and we tried to take the child to my home. After that we stayed and the child is there. But up to now, we are still suffering in the camp, there is nothing to eat. Life in the camp is very risky, we are also aware that whenever we are caught by the rebels, we will be killed, with the father of the child.

So not only the child, but also other people are suffering. And now, people are preparing to go back home. But we hear through rumors that those rebels are coming back to disturb people. As I talk now, we are living a risky life.

Interviewer How did your child manage to escape?

Josephine The child told me that they had gone to rob some things in the bush. So there was a certain child who was her best friend and she was a bit older than my daughter. She was the one who told her to escape at that moment. They did so and came and reported at Gang Diang (barracks).

Interviewer They reported at Gang Diang Barracks. Why were the rebels so furious about her escape?

Josephine The girl said she was suffering a lot in the bush. They couldn’t even sleep. They had to keep looking, moving, looking for food. Sometimes they could be even fired by the guns. She said one day she was told to go and collect some, just to rob some food from a certain home. And she was almost going to be killed. It was God’s power otherwise the bomb could have killed her. So she said that she had a risky life. There was not enough food, everything could go and fight, and after fighting, you rob the things. The food.

Interviewer Did she tell you anything in particular that happened to her when she was in the bush?

Josephine The only thing she told me is that she was suffering. Every time she could be forced to go and fight. She could be forced to go and kill people. And then when you refused to kill the people you are going to be killed.

Interviewer Are there any major things that happened to you after the escape of your child?

Josephine Nothing happened apart from the threatening words. It is the rebels who were threatening who are planning that whenever they get me they are going to kill me.

Interviewer How did the rebels threaten you, did they go through radio?

Josephine One day they came after our departure, and wrote a letter and the letter is still with the RDC [Office of local government Resident District Commissioner]. It was saying that if I don’t bring back their child, they are going to kill me and the whole clan, not only me. The letter is there, up to now.

Interviewer Why do they claim it was their child yet the child is yours?

Josephine How do I know?

Interlude (poem) The New Green, by Constance Sabonya. The serene scene of green outside my window, once praised as a masterpiece of nature now holds to another gleam. All my personal colors of green—army green, civilians, whisper and hurry past the menacing guests. That there is a Kalishnikov, the other a grenade. The citizenry discusses the accessories of the new green. The allure of the night green, long forgotten. Why? Why will the managers of society not let the green long loved outside my window be.

Interviewer Was she open to tell you everything or she was still going through the pain?

Josephine The only thing she told me was that she was loved very much and that Otti [Vincent Otti, Kony’s second in command and spokesperson] had many wives who looked after her as a child. And even everywhere they tried to move, they were guarding her, just not to get away from them. She went there as a babysitter first.

Interviewer What is your relationship with people in this camp?

Josephine You see these people, first of all when I came here these people did not like me. Later when they began to settle and began to be given some assistance from NGOs, some began to befriend me. But in the previous years, they were against me. But for me, I’m just worried. I don’t want to move far from here for the reasons I have told you.

Interviewer Are they also pursuing the parents of the other girl who escaped?

Josephine I don’t know. That’s why also, some parents who are, who understand, they say they don’t want to talk anything against me. Some parents, by the way, ‘There are some other children who have escaped from the rebels but you don’t talk anything, why do you disturb this woman? This woman was not the one who told the child to escape from the bush’.

I know very well that in other places like Mucwiny where another child escaped, the rebels killed about seventy-five or more than seventy-five. I know very well that that person, that parent is also disturbed.

Interviewer How is life in the camp? The poverty, and what?

Josephine On the whole it is difficult, it is very difficult, because we are like prisoners now. There is no food, everything is not there. Even we who are government workers, the money now is becoming useless, so we have poverty, we have epidemic diseases like cholera. Many people have died away from this camp, so we have so many problems. Even the thieves now are very many, I don’t know where they come from. People are planning to go back home, but you hear some rumors—I have not seen, but rumors—that those people have enter Uganda, but I don’t know if that’s true.

Interviewer Which people—the rebels?

Josephine Mmm. I even tried to rent a house outside, but people could not even allow. Whenever I asked for a house to rent in previous years, the people said ‘Eh you allow that woman to rent there, the rebels will kill you’. Whenever I ask for a house to rent, they just say like that. But one day, I managed to rent one. There was a neighbor, and this neighbor said ‘OK, if they are looking for this woman to kill let them kill me also’.

Interviewer So you left that house and decided to come here?

Josephine Yes I decided to come to the camp because one day when I was asleep at around 2:00 at night somebody came and knocked at the door. And I did not even know that person. So, I tried to shout and the person ran away. I decided to leave the house and come back to the camp here. When I stayed here for some months, people were advising me to go back to my house, that why should I leave the house and yet I have rented the house. I went back and after three days again, that person came at night. During three o-clock at night. And then I left the house forever. So I don’t know whether he was a thief, or who he was, I don’t know, thieves are many. Some took some small soap here yesterday, but why? They took a new bicycle and some spares. People are not settled, the rebels also are there, I’ve heard rumors, but have not seen. They are there also.

Interviewer So as a teacher, they can post you anywhere?

Josephine For us, as I talk I have been posted but I will not go. Let me say, it has been somehow OK for security, there has been security, people have been teaching in the villages. But when it goes into, from let me say better to worse, people will reject to stay there, unless you were a born person in that area. I am not free. I cannot go deep in the village today, or to look for money.

Interviewer What punishment do you think Kony deserves for the pain that you have gone through?

Josephine It is even useless to punish him because as God says, you don’t punish somebody who has punished you but instead of punishing him or her you just pray for him to change his mind. So I think it is not good to punish Kony but what we should do is to tell them to come back home. They should accept the advice, they should sit down for peace talks so that they rejoice and come back home.

—–

FAITH:
A widow who brews and sells an alcohol brew to put her children through school.

Faith I have been in the business of brewing malwa for so long. I started the business in 1995. I get money for school fees for my children which I have been paying for about six to seven years. My husband died a long time ago in 1994 when my (first) child was in P6. The firstborn is now a laboratory technician. I have three children and I have been keeping them out of my business brewing malwa [local alcoholic brew]. I now have a motorcycle, which I bought out of my business. I also have a little money in the bank.

Interviewer Tell me about doing business during the war, where were you getting your products?

Faith For millet, I go to Pabbo. I bring it here then I use it for selling malwa. During the war, I had to go to town Genako to the store in Gulu and buy millet there at a very high price.

Interviewer So, was doing business during the war profitable? Did you get a lot of money?

Faith Ahh… you don’t get a lot of money. You get very little because the price of millet was so high – 600 shillings per kilo.

Interviewer Weren’t you afraid of doing business during the war?

Faith I was afraid because one day we were looking for somewhere to sleep. We slept in the town by the gates and when we got back home we found out that one person had been killed near our home.

It was very difficult because I have no husband, he is dead already. I am alone to care for the children. It was very difficult to take care of the children in town. One day I was caught by the rebels and when I escaped they came and killed my father. They found us at home in Koro during the night time and they killed our father there and then.

Interviewer [link] The fate that befell her father might have been the same for Faith had it not been for that fact that she recognized one of the rebels as her uncle. Her biggest challenge now is where to pour the residue from her local brew, but I wonder what changes she sees now that the war has ended.

Faith It has made life different because a long time ago, you could go to the village and dig a garden to promote your business, but nowadays, you rely on money only. People are in the camp, you leave your home even when you try to go and dig, nobody can help you with digging.

Interviewer Would you leave this business if you had an option?

Faith I can leave it if I get enough money because it is hard work brewing malwa.

Interviewer But now that you have been in this business for long, don’t you enjoy it?

Faith You can enjoy it but it is very difficult to make it – you do it because of the conditions – if you don’t do it, you don’t get money.

Interviewer Are you in any women’s organizations?

Faith We have a small group – we have a plan for generating money in our group. We were thirty-six in the group, some used to dance… other people used to sing. We go wherever we are invited to perform.

Interviewer What advice do you have for widows?

Faith I tell them that they must keep their business. I advise them not to get other men because it may spoil their business.

Interviewer So men spoil business?

Faith Yes because if you have a man and if you want to go to Pabbo, he may refuse or if you have a drunkard man he may steal your money.