Dudas
outtakes: Gold investing
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Bear Stearns analyst Michael Dudas spoke to Wall Street Week about the
outlook for commodities and gold. Here's what he had to say on the key
issues.
On the climate for commodity investing:
I think the investment climate for things is actually quite good. We've
had a period throughout the '90s of a very deflationary environment, where
the climate wasn't so good for commodities like oil, copper, gold, coffee,
silver, coal. I think starting about two years ago we are in an early
stage of a long-term commodity market where we're going to see very bullish
pricing going forward.
On what's driving demand for gold:
You've got a couple of interesting drivers. First is global demand. We
are now starting to see more synchronization and demand for commodities
in general driven by growth in Asia, and we've had a very strong economy
in the United States. Secondly, the world grossly overcapitalized the
technology and telecommunications industries throughout the 1990s and
didn't put capital elsewhere. That led to very tight markets in many commodities,
and we're seeing that in oil right now where oil prices have quadrupled
off the bottoms in 1999. And we've not had the investment in many of these
commodities. Investments work with a lag. When you start to think about
investing in a commodity to get it out of the ground, the lag time is
anywhere from two to five years in certain commodities. So I think we're
going to see a period of tightness throughout the next few years as we
start to see more investment in the commodity space.
On Asia's impact on commodity prices:
Asia--China in particular and India even--is starting to be a very important
aspect towards the growth rates in demand for commodities. It's interesting
to point out that China has been the most important growth market for
commodities like iron ore, coal, steel, aluminum, copper and other Asian
economies as well. That's part of the mix, but the rest of the world does
help out as well. A better U.S. economy, which is still the engine that
drives the world, can't hurt. And if the European economy starts to pick
up steam, we could have a very strong demand pull in commodity markets
on the top of that growth in China and India.
On commodity demand amid inflation pressure:
I think what you would see is continued global demand, global economic
growth. At the same time, I think you need to see relative mild to even
better than mild inflationary aspects throughout the world. Typically,
commodities--real assets--do well in a reflation or inflationary environment.
So I think some inflation in addition with global economic growth and
relative supply checks would be a very good environment for commodity
prices over the next few years.
On ways to invest in commodities:
I think when investors are looking at trying to benefit from the improvement
or the expected improvement in gold prices, there are a couple of ways
to look at it. One would be a mutual fund that invests primarily in gold
producing equities. That's a very diversified way to take out country
risk and specific country risk but also benefit from improvements in gold
prices. Another would be to invest directly in the equities themselves.
The major producers are based out of North America. There's a couple in
Latin America and some in South Africa. But the world has consolidated.
For some of the more risk-tolerant investors, there's always the more
exploration, speculative type of companies that are drilling deposits
around the world looking for that mother load, and if you get the right
one, you could do quite well. But again, that's much more on the higher
risk tolerant category for investors. The more aggressive investor can
also look towards the commodity markets and play the futures, but that's
very volatile and it's very high risk, so I think investors need to be
careful when they go that route.
On what could trip up commodities:
I think deflation. If the world's central bankers take liquidity out
of the marketplace and we have a more deflationary environment--caused
by the extremely high debt levels we've seen throughout the world--that
could be difficult for commodities. Historically a deflationary environment
is not a very good time in general for absolute price movements in commodities.
I think the second thing would be if the world would go into a recession.
That would cause demand for commodities to fall and that wouldn't be a
good thing.
On future gold prices:
I think some people have been surprised that maybe gold prices haven't
moved higher in that anxiety-ridden geopolitical world that we're in right
now. Currently we're hovering near the $395-$400 level. I think the anxiety
factor is one issue. Another issue is the liquidity that's been added
to the system by the world central banks over the past few years, primarily
by the U.S. central bank. That's caused the value of the U.S. dollar to
trade below 10-year averages, and typically as the dollar weakens it's
very supportive for dollar-priced commodities. Gold is the ultimate dollar-priced
commodity in the world.
On gold's relationship to the U.S. dollar:
Through the 1980s and 1990s, the world has looked upon the dollar as
the reserve currency, as the currency of last resort. I think some investors
have been a bit concerned by the policies of the U.S. government, and
it's showed up in the lower value of the U.S. dollar. And typically there's
an inverse correlation between the lower value of the dollar and a higher
gold price. Gold is still looked upon as money by many people in the world,
especially in developing economies like India and in China, but there's
a lot of things that are involved. Most market's sentiment based. That
drives up the price of gold.
On gold's role in the market:
People typically have looked towards gold as a place for a safe haven,
because technically gold is nobody's liability and you can't really create
much more gold to the marketplace than what we're creating from the mines
throughout the world. There's probably 150,000 metric tons of gold that
are above ground in the world, whether they're in central bank vaults
or they're around your neck or around your finger as jewelry. But you
only add about 2,000 to 2,500 metric tons of gold per year from the mines
throughout the world. So you won't see a huge new supply of gold to the
marketplace. I think people get a bit of a comfort when there's some uncertainty
in the world.
On the psychology behind gold's success:
I think it's one part the anxiety. The world is not the same since 9/11.
We'll never be the same again, and all things that were looked upon more
favorably back before 9/11 now are maybe a little bit less certain. And
I think gold has reacted quite favorable towards the value of the dollar
declining, the fact that the world's economies are growing and demand
for commodities in general are improving. There's also a very high correlation
over periods of time with high energy prices and high gold prices, as
again inflation leads towards real assets improving. So I think it's a
part of the anxiety that's caused gold prices to move higher, but it's
not the overriding reason.
On whether inflation would be beneficial:
I think the world does need some reflation. We got through a very difficult
time in the late '90s and 2001. You mentioned about the political issues
we've mentioned and 9/11, and we had a recession in the U.S. The world
was in a deflationary spiral, and the world central banks recognized that
and added a lot of liquidity to the system. I think a little bit of pricing
would be helpful to the world, especially for developing countries that
have a lot of natural resources that the world would need. They could
use that money just to help reinvest and better lives for themselves.
So I think a little bit of inflation, a little bit of commodity price
improvements could be quite helpful, but then we could cross the line.
And if oil prices or energy prices were to double from these levels and
commodity prices were to expand dramatically, that could choke off any
recovery and cause some economic activity disappointments going forward.
But I think in the overall scheme of things, it's not such a bad thing
to have a little bit of reflation.
On gold mining:
You can't find gold unless you have rights to the land to go look for
it. And you could be a really good mining company and have a really good
mine and generate a lot of earnings and cash flow, but to find more and
get growth you need to have access to land. A mine is a depleting asset.
Typically gold mine lives are anywhere from 7 to 15 years and once you
get through that 15 years there's no gold left. So to continue to generate
growth and returns to investors, you need to look for the stuff.
On gold mining companies:
I think Newmont Mining manages their assets, their balance sheet, and
their people better than most other metal mining companies. They have
a very strong focus on returns. They will not make investments unless
they get good returns for their shareholders. That should provide growth.
They also have the ability to manage a large amount of geologists and
mining engineers, where I think in the next five to 10 years could be
in short supply. The bigger a company that you are, the more opportunities
you can offer your employees to explore for gold, produce it and generate
very good living incomes for them. I think that is going to be a very
helpful skill set over the next few years.
There are some pretty big mining companies out there. For example, Rio
Tinto and BHP Billiton are two probably the most noted, large mining companies,
but they are diversified miners. They produce all types of commodities,
from aluminum to copper to coal to iron ore to steel to oil and gas. I
think from a precious metals or a gold only standpoint, Newmont has the
largest market cap. I think it will matter going forward.
On future gold prices:
I think we'll make higher lows and higher highs in gold prices. Our average
price forecast this year is $415 an ounce, and we're probably $10.00 lower
than that going into June, early June. I think over the next 12 to 18
months, we could see gold exceed $450 an ounce, and I think we'll hold
the $370 level which we witnessed earlier in May. I think we'll make higher
lows and higher highs in gold over the next 18 months. And as long as
we have an accommodative global monetary policy and improved economic
growth worldwide, I think commodity prices in general will move higher
and gold in particular.
On which gold vehicles will perform best:
Very difficult to say whether the commodity class given equities, bonds,
that's a little bit out of my bailiwick, but in a diversified portfolio,
given the favorable supply and demand characteristics in most commodities
these days, it probably makes sense to have investors take a look at the
commodities space. And if they have the ability to tolerate a little bit
of volatility, because they are typically very volatile prices, I think
you can make some above average returns.
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