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Bill Moyers & Michael Winship - Ask the Chamber of Commerce: Why Is Too Much Not Enough?

Living in these United States, there comes a point at which you throw your hands up in exasperation and despair and ask a fundamental question or two: how much excess profit does corporate America really need? How much bigger do executive salaries and bonuses have to be, how many houses or jets or artworks can be crammed into a life?

After all, as billionaire movie director Steven Spielberg is reported to have said, when all is said and done, "How much better can lunch get?"

But since greed is not self-governing, hardly anyone raking in the dough ever stops to say, "That's it. Enough's enough! How do we prevent it from sweeping up everything in its path, including us?"

Look at the health care industry saying to hell with consumers and then hiking premiums - by as much as 39% in the case of Anthem Blue Cross in California. According to congressional investigators, over a two-year period Anthem's parent company WellPoint spent more than $27 million dollars for executive retreats at luxury resorts. And in 2008, WellPoint paid 39 of its executives more than a million dollars each. Profit before patients.

This week, America's Health Insurance Plans (AHIP), the health insurance industry's lobby, announced they'd be spending more than a million dollars on new television ads justifying their costs.

Speaking at their annual policy meeting in Washington - and without a trace of irony - AHIP's president and CEO Karen Ignagni declared, "The current debate about rising premiums has demonstrated that, in fact, we have a health care cost crisis in this country. Unfortunately, the path that has been followed is one of vilification rather than problem solving."

Beg pardon? You're lamenting a health care cost crisis and raising your premiums? Isn't that like the guy complaining there's an obesity epidemic in America while ordering a double Big Mac with extra fries?

Of course, a million is a mere bagatelle in the shadow of the $544 million that was spent on lobbying by the health sector last year, plus more than $200 million in advocacy ads. And a million's just the curtain raiser to what will be spent in these final weeks of health care reform debate.

Two weeks ago, THE WASHINGTON POST reported, "Washington interest groups have burst back into action in hopes of bolstering or defeating a new Democratic push on health-care reform legislation, sparking another wave of rallies, lobbying efforts and costly advertising campaigns."

This in spite of the projection that over ten years the Obama plan would plop an additional $336 billion into the insurance companies' pockets - in the form of subsidies given to those who can't afford to buy health insurance on their own.

Okay, this is getting weird: We're going to help the poor by enriching their exploiters?

But apparently even that won't satisfy big business' voracious appetite for more. On Tuesday, Employers for a Healthy Economy, a coalition of 248 business groups, led by the U.S Chamber of Commerce, and including construction and manufacturing interests, as well as health insurance companies, said that over ten days they will spend up to $10 million on ads aimed at putting the screws on members of Congress to vote against health care reform.

Goodness knows, it isn't just because their profit margins may dwindle. No, according to Neil Trautwein, vice president of the National Retail Federation, one of the trade associations involved, "These bills are job killers. Retail simply cannot afford any higher benefit costs or burdensome mandates." (Never mind that extrapolating from baseline forecasts made by the U.S. Department of Labor's Employment Projections Program, the Center for American Progress, a liberal think tank, projects that health care reform possibly could create an average of as many as 400,000 new jobs a year.)

But beyond the health care fight, and perhaps far more significant in the long run, this effort is just one more example of life, Pandora-style. The Company has arrived, only it's called the U.S. Chamber of Commerce, and it's got its sights on anything that moves, damn the natives, full speed ahead. During 2008, 86% of contributions from the chamber's political action committee went to GOP candidates. The conservatives have found their Avatar, AKA Frankenstein.

Of course there is not actually a Chamber of Commerce, at least the way we might imagine it. This is no confederation of congenial, small town business groups that pass out maps of Main Street and souvenir key rings. The chamber in question is a front group. Yes, yes, it reports a membership of three million businesses, but tax records indicate that in 2008 a third of its contributions came from 19 companies paying between $1 million and $15.3 million. Don't hold your breath: the chamber is not required to reveal who those 19 are.

The March 8 edition of the LOS ANGELES TIMES reports that "internal documents suggest the organization's treasury is filled in substantial part by contributions from a couple dozen major corporations most affected by Washington policymakers."

Got it? Predators who prey together stick together.

With all that cash, the TIMES notes, "The chamber spent more than $144 million on lobbying and grass-roots organizing last year, a 60% increase over 2008, and well beyond the spending of individual labor unions or the Democratic or Republican national committees. The chamber is expected to substantially exceed that spending level in 2010."

This elite organization of oligarchs has been emboldened by the Supreme Court decision in the Citizens United case, which now allows corporations to spend freely on political campaigns right up until Election Day, and by the chamber's recent success contributing a million dollars for ads supporting Republican Senator Scott Brown in Massachusetts.

What's more, writes the LOS ANGELES TIMES, "Using trade associations such as the chamber as the vehicle for spending corporate money on politics has an extra appeal: These groups can take large contributions from companies and wealthy individuals in ways that will probably avoid public disclosure requirements."

So with the spring comes anonymous greed run rampant. "In the past a lot of companies and wealthy individuals stood on the sidelines" of politics, a corporate lawyer at Washington's influential law firm Covington & Burling told the TIMES.

"That cloud has been lifted," he said.

As the sun sets on democracy.

No wonder demonstrators outside that health insurance meeting in Washington this week surrounded the hotel with yellow crime scene tape. The entire country is being mugged.


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I think that we should pull back are troops from the war in Afganistan.

Obviously, it has finally become clear as to who's is really running this country. It began about 30-40 years ago. It began, I believe, when news broadcasts began omitting facts and reporting on "drama" instead of issues in the interest of sensationaling the news and appealing to listeners (those who apparently have no interest in what facts are). Corporations began purchasing mass media and now control everything we hear and see. (What does that tell you). They have obviously bought up most of the US Congress/Senate and select who we vote for. One way to end this is for the population to identify who is in corporate America's pocket and replace them with people who genuinely have the Country's best interest in mind. That means stops voting for people who are eye candy, the best speech maker who spouts meaningless dribble with no substance and not supported by legitimate information. WE are going to have to seek these people out instead of Party heads. We have a number of LARGE organizations that are independent from corporate America (Freemasons, for one example). We have a large pot to draw from. BUT because our society is so factionalized we will have a difficult time reaching a consensus as to who to run for office. We need an ALTERNATIVE party that has a different agenda than Corporate America-----that has a platform that brings resolution to issues at hand. WE HAVE TO VOTE THE CROOKS OUT OF OFFICE. The government exists only if we recognize it as such and allow it to govern. WE give government legitimacy. If EVERYONE put it on the line and ignored legislation, GOVERNMENT would have a difficult time putting everyone in jail. If the vast majority of the population decided "we want our children to have prayer in school" and every school in America returned to allowing that, what COULD the government do? Well, most likely they would cut off federal aid. We would have to then support our own schools without Federal assistance and the strings that come with it, which is what we should be doing anyway. BUT this could also come to bite us because this premise could lead us back to a road of anarchy and we don't need that heartburn either. A second method is to boycott Corporate America. You have to wonder how they would respond to a dramatic drop of revenue in which to line their pockets and how long would it take before they yelled "UNCLE". Well their first response would be to dismiss employees to cut salary costs. However, without employees there would be no product, but the squeeze would definitely be on us who would have no INCOME. If EVERYONE cancelled their insurance and stopped going to doctors (even at their own peril) the BEAST would eventually starve, but then so would we. It would be an interesting contest. The third method (when all legitimate efforts fail) is to begin a revolution like the colonists did 200 years ago. Unfortunately, this would be very short lived as the US Government can now track you by your cell phone, your GPS, your cars built in GPS, and even your computer. They also have ALL of the superior weapons. REVOLUTION is a tempting thought from time to time-----but it ain't gonna happen (unless you just have a death wish). Our only real chance out of this (which, incidentally, we brought on ourselves by not watching the hen house and keeping the wolves at bay) is to proceed with the existing process, VOTE OUT the people who are perpetuating the status quo and replace them with people who will repair the damage done and eliminate current processes that have been established to promote CORPORATE AMERICA exclusively. We have to select knowledgeable people dedicated to common sense who are committed to promoting a system that is benefical to EVERYONE. We can no longer accept candidates that give speeches without substance and specific ideas. Thats like buying merchandise from a catalog----you never know what your going to get until it arrives at your door and then it's too late. Candidates HAVE to go through a process of interrogation and interview and exposes exactly what their agenda is. WE HAVE TO DO MORE TO ASSURE OURSELVES THAT WE GET WHAT WE EXPECT.

It was a mixed crowd at the B-Day party - from age 8 to 80.

As long as the kids were around, a couple of drinks were enough to grease the social wheels for some people.

But when the after 11 PM contingent showed up,

well :-)

the butt pictures are evidence that needs to be deleted...

Too much is too much

when a lot less is enough...

Same thing with bible-thumping or any other holy book thumping...

Read it judiciously.

Read it fanatically and obsessively

well, the interpretations become rationalizations

and then become a "photo" of something that no one in the public square should have to see as evidence that you've got "religion".

From a song by a disbanded group called "Rusted Root":

"I will tie my shoes to heaven. I will walk back to earth."

"You listen to me. While I will admit to a certain cynicism, the fact is that I am a nay-sayer and hatchet man in the fight against violence. I pride myself in taking a punch and I'll gladly take another, because I choose to live my life in the company of Gandhi and King. My concerns are global. I reject absolutely revenge, aggression, and retaliation. The foundation of such a method is love."

Albert: Twin Peaks

If I had time to waste on the absurd and useless as far as GOVERNMENT goes, I'd go back to find your delightful posts about the date and time of the - what was the Big Giant Head's name - Mahdi or something? - and get into what your attempts at psychobabble are worth in the big picture.

Since your mental laziness continues to keep you in a state of perpetual confusion about "share" power, here's the Just War criteria:

1. The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain;
2. All other means of putting an end to it must have been shown to be impractical or ineffective;
3. There must be serious prospects of success;
4. The use of arms must not produce evils and disorders graver than the evil to be eliminated. The power of modern means of destruction weighs very heavily in evaluating this condition.

If you are divining that the 1000 year old LIST for decision making when to go to war is indicative of a collective, animal-like mental masturbation exercise of "anger, frustration, and emotional high"

then there is nothing left to talk about, is there?, on this PUBLIC FORUM.

I certainly have no interest in your personal life and I'm sure that without any sweat, I'd find a lot of additional imperfections in you besides the delusional belief in your orb-shaman to get all PERSONAL about,

but that would bore me to tears and insult all the posters here these past months who have real LIFE situations to deal with that were brought on by Just War Point #1 -

"The damage inflicted by the aggressor on the nation or community of nations must be lasting, grave, and certain..."

The French Revolution was no worse than a post soccer game party, now was it?

Pure Machievellian politics to throw out Marie's head as a party crasher to end the "emotional high"...

Would you detach your head from your body to appease the Big Giant Head..?

I KNOW what lists I was on and why it was so PERSONAL with me - the crowd that has kept The Urantia Book under ruthless censorship DOES work for a certain "mahdi" of their own...

Let me guess, you didn't know you were a stalinista because you call yourself an enronista...?

Scheesh, if everybody who has in common a culture, religion or heritage with the MILLIONS of people the Stalinistas/Enronistas tortured, stole from, sent to Labor camps, and murdered

starting strapping bombs on themselves and setting them off in subways

there would be a couple of billion bombs going off

because Stalin did it to EVERYONE...

Really stupid stuff...the REASONS they give for suicide bombings - someone please give them a few other books to read....

Now "Just War"?

Well, no one ever LOST that kind of war, Betsy.

Now please go donate/share/wha'ever condoms to poor women in India and elsewhere who don't want any more kids because they KNOW there is nothing left to "share" useful for a change, Betsy...

I am at WAR, Betsy.

I believe you, Anna. It is a thrilling prospect to vent all of that anger, frustration, and also to feel the emotional high.

When push comes to shove, though, and destruction has drained the emotion, rebuilding will be the next step.

Why not consider the next step now, so that the venting will also present a way forward. We all know what is wrong, but few offer a constructive way forward into the future.

The FACTS - the NUMBERS - are staggering, Betsy. You can only cough up such platitudes in response as a JOKE at this point in time.
You keep LYING about the role you played in stealing.

The truth will come out...

The French revolution was CIVIL compared to the Russian Revolution.

Since Stalin is up as an excuse for suicide bombing in Russia I can only surmise that, like you, they don't have access to Wiki to read up on who Stalin WAS - a GEORGIAN, not a Russian. The Middle East keeps on giving PSYCHOS to the world - personality cults...Ayn Rand et al ruling Irvine CA...and how's YOUR BIG GIANT HEAD talking leader these days, Betsy...?

As they say, nothing new under the sun:

From Wiki: "With seed capital unavailable because of international reaction to Communist policies, little international trade, and virtually no modern infrastructure, Stalin's government financed industrialization both by restraining consumption on the part of ordinary Soviet citizens to ensure that capital went for re-investment into industry, and by ruthless extraction of wealth from the kulaks."

I am at WAR, Betsy.

"JUST WAR" - look it up on Wiki...all 4 points have been met.

Don't bet on there being so many addicts that an army can't be raised....just thought I'd SHARE that with you :-)

"is TAKING the fruits of everyone's LIFETIME OF LABOR
what you refer to as "sharing"...?!"

No, Ana, not at all. Sharing is what families do, what good friends do. It is not ideology, or taking what is not yours. It is the basis of justice. It comes voluntarily when you love. It is the basis of all traditions. Simple brotherhood.

Betsy Whitfill channels from the Big Giant Head, "But must there be total destruction and exhaustion before rebuilding?"

Ask your boyz at Friggers can you INSIST on pretending that that's NOT what has already happened...?!

We were ROBBED.

We have the paperwork to prove it.

In your neocon, psych ops programmed DELUSIONS

is TAKING the fruits of everyone's LIFETIME OF LABOR

what you refer to as "sharing"...?!

Are you really that nuts...?

Way to go Loretta! Time to think out of the box...or to wake up to the probability that the future requires considering that old segue....AND NOW, FOR SOMETHING COMPLETELY DIFFERENT. We the people.

The French Revolution was, from the comfort of hindsight, a great step forward. But must there be total destruction and exhaustion before rebuilding? Today's intelligence is supposed to have learned from history.
Let's talk about tomorrow not in terms of history (which is the same ole same ole...only the characters change).
Let's talk about what are the basics for life...for everyone no matter who they are: nourishing food; safe shelter; adequate health care and all the education needed for sustainment. Where these do not obtain, nothing but war, hatred and decimation live.

Give up war. Make these basics available to everyone as a human right, not based on whether they can pay. Teach the adults what we have all taught our children when they were small....share your toys and play nicely together. Don't hit. Don't waste your food. Do your homework. Treat everyone you meet with you would want to be treated. Recycle. Demand clean, non-nuclear energy. Don't buy what you don't need.

Share and save the world. There is no other course. All else has been tried and failed.

If your politicians don't do what you expect them to do for your city/state/country...throw them out.
Find younger people who will be your representatives...will speak for you and bring back the sanctity of "public service". It is not that mysterious.

Post site not working

When all is said and done, when the GIANT FINANCIAL INSTITUTIONS run out of Black Hole Schemes to keep the Number Game going, who cares? This Capitalistic Market is only a "Belief System" that can no longer sustain itself now that it has Raped, Drilled, Gouged, Bulldozed, Blasted, Poisoned and Enslaved ALL Life on this very "Generous Planet". What Goes Round, Comes Round, What Goes UP, Must Come DOWN. "The Law of Relativity" Interesting how those who have had the most, Always CRY the Loudest. You'd think after 200+ years of Invading and Colonizing this once Pristine Continent of "America" we would OPEN our eyes, ears, minds and Hearts and deeply question, "Why are we here? And who guarantees that We "Human-Centric" Consumers will continue to "Roll the Dice". After all this has only been one very intensive "Experiment". "The Extreme American Dream" has been realized, now it's time to WAKE UP.
Who Really is in Control???

Loretta Huston

OK, so why wouldn't people give up the rat race of looking for a job, having little possibility of rejoining the dwindling and increasingly stressed middle class, paying taxes for causes they do not support etc.?

Aren't there alternatives?

Betsy Whitfil opinioned, in part, "Of course, the final phase may be that Americans will divide into those who are "on top" and cannot fail and therefore are not afraid, and those who simply give up."

Our people are not likely to "give up".

The greedy rich might want to check out the history of the French Revolution.
The plight of the French people was ignored by the French elite and "heads rolled" literally.

The middle class can no longer support our economy due to wages going down and prices going up. The demand side of economics is failing and the supply side will fail next. The result will be crash, bang, crash that will be heard around the world.
Our enemies will celebrate our stupidity.

Betsy Whitfil opined, in part, "Of course, the final phase may be that Americans will divide into those who are "on top" and cannot fail and therefore are not afraid, and those who simply give up."

Thanks for the laugh of the day, Betsy.

I'm so glad you flunked REAL FACTUAL HISTORY in whatever lalaland school taught you such IDEAS

about the SOUL of humanity...

There is never enough profit, money, stuff for those who, for a variety of reasons, fear having nothing.

In America, we are taught that competition, even competition to the "last man standing" is the the only system to produce the most and best product. Competition breeds fear..some say a healthy respect for the possibility of losing one's standing (therefore one's profit potential). But now that there is so much social/economic turmoil, fear is rampant and everyone wants to get as much money as possible before there is nothing to get. Government is as culpable as Wall Street. Constant roiling, constant legislation and re-legislation is breeding deep fear. Of course, the final phase may be that Americans will divide into those who are "on top" and cannot fail and therefore are not afraid, and those who simply give up. I once heard a man say "what we should do is have government have all the money and give us all stipends".

A case could be made for a "bible" that slaps together the New Testament with Buddhism, for instance.
Posted by Anna D.

Posted by David C.
Good post Anna. Plato would be pleased...

When it comes to what is "good"; I think that a combination of God's wisdom and people's best comprehension of what is "good" would satisfy the dynamic balance of Tao. We need both practical wisdom and transcendental wisdom.
Peace of mind and keeping body and soul together should be people's fundamental concern not materialism and divisiveness.

Dunno, but Mr. Moyers might not be all that happy with his life being trotted out in Psalm readings...?!

PBS News Hour is worth the hour's time, also.

As I noted, we all have the paperwork to PROVE the FACTS about the HUMAN carnage brought about by the decade of "perception is reality".

As noted by Grandma, "....the war is just beginning..."

Any religion that does not LIMIT itself to the organization of study and thought around the consideration of the TRUTH of the sovreignty of God

is NOT a "religion"...

A case could be made for a "bible" that slaps together the New Testament with Buddhism, for instance.

The New Testament makes more sense as a philosophy of living when it stands alone on its own merits.

Religion is not about sex, chosen people, or baseball...or about how people SHOULD "relate" to a self-proclaimed elite's screamingly selfish materialistic and mechanistic manipulations that are nothing more than magic and metaphysics.

Discussion happening off the grid, so to speak, is about how much time should unrepenetant criminals be given to surrender to the rule of law without the need for the FORCE of 80% of USA population being deployed to round them up and throw away the key...?

I want to know how the US Chamber of Commerce is using TAX dollars to fund ads against the good of the People? In fact why do they advertise at all, don't they work with congress and for the good of the country/people?

Best wishes to Bill Moyers,

Psalms 22:17-22
I can count my bones;
People stare and gloat over me.
They divide my garments among them and cast lots for my clothing.
But you O Lord be not far off; O my strength, come quickly to help me.
Deliver my life from the sword, my precious life from the power of the dogs.
Rescue me from the mouth of the lions.
Save me from the horns of the wild oxen.
I will declare your name to my brothers.

The battle between good and evil goes on.
We are corruptible in body and spirit yet some of us are able to get a glimpse of what is good beyond what is convenient.
I appreciate your sharing with the world what good should be and what should not be.
There are many paths to the good but they must be chosen wisely. May the wisdom of the ages give us the power of discernment and the joy of another day.

David C. Eddy

Some earners receive health care without declaring it as income.

Many earners pay taxes on their pay and AFTER tax money is spent on health care.

How is that fair?

The employers reduce taxable income by the amount supplied to employees receiving health care.

What's with that?

Congressional Loopholes,
the Infernal Revenue Service, armed by the greed of corporate COMPANY STORES, have returned slavery to the USA--but no race, sex, religion, etc. is singled out--

When the DNC & candidate CHANGE denied the Dem. Primary Votes in Florida, and few said anything,
THEN, why does it surprise anyone 'they' will do whatever 'they' want!?

Thanks for nothing SILENT MAJORITY!!! You deserve to be ground under hobble-boots!

Billy Bob Florida


We are organizing a walk from San Francisco CA to Washington D.C., to raise the awareness of the public and their legislative representatives of the need to amend the Constitution of the United States, to wrest the control of government from corporate money and restore it to human citizens.

We are working in concert with for media outreach to help raise the voices of the people across the nation.

We will walk in one hour shifts, 24/7, rain or shine, starting at Golden Gate Park, in San Francisco, on May 16th and complete the walk at the Lincoln Memorial on August 1st. We will camp in state parks and recreation areas along the way and move camp every few days as the walk progresses.

We represent no political agenda save to restore the inalienable and Constitutional rights of human beings and the dominion of human citizens over corporations.

We believe that legislation and honest philosophical debate, of the people, by the people and for the people, can only begin when people control the government.

We believe that no true benefit to human citizens can issue from a government controlled by corporate purse strings. Unless and until corporations loose the claim of Personhood as opined by a Supreme Court in the 1880’s, no limit of the expenditure of money as speech can be legislated.

We hold no bias or prejudice of any human being based on: choices in their own lifestyle, their culture, biological heritage, or personal, religious or political, beliefs. We welcome diversity in this group and celebrate our common purpose. We must amend the Constitution.

If you would like to join in all, or any part of this political exercise, please respond to this post and we will be glad to answer any questions and fill in details.

Thank you,

George L. Monahan

If the insurance companies' plan for their own future profitability is to raise premiums to the point that older people drop or reduce coverage and only younger healthier people remain covered, those who are covered will be dropped or forced into reduced coverage when they get old.
This will result in an insurance system that, for the most part, doesn't cover anyone; it only collects money in the form of premiums. It is no coincidence that every effort is being made to divide and conquer the American public on this subject.
Everyone who is making gigantic profits from the human condition of mortality in this country is much better served when the people of this country argue with each other instead of with those causing the problem.
Everyone from our political parties to our media outlets to our health care industry is dividing and conquering for personal profit, these days.
The only debatable question is: How long can this well be pumped until it runs dry ?

I've lived most of my adult life abroad, though I follow things in the US. When I did live in NY for 6 years in the 80's, I remember being shocked by the first question people asked each other when meeting for the first time. It wasn't "what do you do" or similar. It was "how much do you make".
Wealth is America's religion, so it isn't that strange that the most admired are the wealthiest, and the health care industry is just that - an industry based on the profit motive. There isn't another modern western nation that doesn't have universal healthcare. That says something about the US's priorities.

Great piece on the Chamber of Commerce. What a deception. How can the main contributors be silent? These blogs are excellent, and show there are people out "here" thinking and observing, trying to find truth. Hopefully, we can find ways to make effective contributions to improve our culture.

Health system is broken. Congress is trying to put on a cast without setting the bones in proper place.

Ex. A highly skilled, caring doctor sees 1,000 patients with identical symptomes, an anti-acid is prescribed & 999 leave & are healed. However, while leaving the doctors office the 1000th patiens, 50 year old, drops dead, in the parking lot, of a heart attack. Though the doctor had treated several generations of the dead person and all had lived into their 90 without heart ailments, the doctor is sued out of practice.

Fix the structure or different patches will just cover up the gang-green!

How the Senate functions is determined by 1\100th of the membership, and the House by 1\435th. Fix the Senority System or Health Patches will be so full of loopholes Mainstreet will be oooooozing green once again!

Billy Bob Florida


I'm Moira Manion, a Commentator about the working poor for "Marketplace," public radio's business and economics program. I'm one of the few, perhaps the only, people writing about the point of view of low-wage workers who is actually one of them.

In my blog, "Everything I Can't Say On Public Radio" (please see link) recently touched on the topic of the extremity of difference between how much executives are paid compared to the employees who are responsible for the daily running of the corporations ("Why Your Employees Hate Your Guts #1: It's the Money, Stupid."). My response to Mr. Moyer's post is, "Executive's will never say 'enough,' because they don't have to." Who's to stop them? Where are any consequences? The American people aren't striking, aren't protesting. Ironically, those protestors who are grabbing media attention are Tea Baggers, who want to protect the status quo, even if it literally kills them from lack of health care.

These profits could be returned to the workers in living wages, health care benefits, bonuses. This would create happier, healthier employees, who, in order to keep their better jobs, are willing to go that extra mile for their company.

But unless there is some sort of inescapable pressure on these companies, they will never, ever say "enough."

Moira Manion

From "Just War" discussion on the Wikipedia site:

"a just war exists when a people tries to ward off the threat of coercive domination by another people, or to overthrow an already-existing domination. A war is unjust, on the other hand, when a people try to impose domination on another people, or try to retain an already existing coercive rule over them."

From the historical perspective about "Just War" on the Wikipedia site:

"...a just war exists when a people tries to ward off the threat of coercive domination by another people, or to overthrow an already-existing domination. A war is unjust, on the other hand, when a people try to impose domination on another people, or try to retain an already existing coercive rule over them...."

Idealogues CAN watch the wasting away of everybody they shoved into a "camp" based on their made-up SELF-serving lists of "the enemy" without any indication of there being any humanity OR "humanism" in their being.

This IS a war.

One TRILLION in cash keeping war lords and drug lords in business, 600 trillion in made-up derivatives...

Pull out a bill from your wallet...and think about it...POWER? Really?

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