"The following is a complete, unedited, unverified interview, portions
of which were utilized in the Red Files PBS broadcast. Statements therein are the sole opinion of the interviewee, and do not reflect the views of PBS, DDE or Series and Web Site producer Abamedia, which are not Responsible for the interview content."

Interview with Vladimir Semichastny
KGB Chairman 1961-67

Interviewer: Lenin said that every Communist is a secret policeman. What did he mean by that?

Vladimir Semichastny: I've never heard such a phrase. I've never read it Lenin's works. I've never used such Lenin's words, because they never exist.

Interviewer: If I asked him does he think the Cheka played a central role in the revolution? Would he answer that? How was it -- how was it formed and why -- why was that important?

Vladimir Semichastny: Ah well, first of all Cheka was founded after the revolution.

Interviewer: Yes, I know.

Vladimir Semichastny: Ah, the revolution has already two -- if we speak about civil war. Yes, it was playing a very important role.

Interviewer: Soon after the revolution, there were constant spy scares put out by the government. Were these real scares, or were they propaganda?

Vladimir Semichastny: No, it was a real threat, and you should remember that there was an intervention of the foreign states in the Russian Far East, Archangel of the West border of Russia. The foreign troops were participating in the attempts to stamp the revolution. It's not just propaganda, because there are mounds of documents in the archives relating to these events and to the espionage cases.

Interviewer: So why were more efforts turned against the Russian people than against foreign enemies?

Vladimir Semichastny: Well, the explanation is quite simple. The internal problems and the internal attempts of the counter-revolution were much more serious. Of course, in the far east, the Japanese troops were there, and the Archangel British troops; on the west border, the Germans and the so-called White Bulls, but still it is not that serious or that important as the internal struggle. Because, inside the country, there were Capitalists, owners who were trying to protect their property, and naturally they were fighting hard against the revolution, which was trying to change the way of life in this country. That's the explanation. Keep it in mind that in the case of foreign intervention, it was quite clear in what the location was more or less the number of troops were known, and the situation was more or less under control. With the internal counter-revolution, it was hard to predict where the next uprising will be, or something, so it was much more difficult to counter this affect.

Interviewer: What about after the civil war? After the revolution, it went on for the next forty years?

Vladimir Semichastny: Why such a question?

Interviewer: The majority of the KGB's efforts were devoted internally rather than externally, so I'm just asking why that was necessary?

Vladimir Semichastny: The KGB activities were always aimed against the interior enemies and against exterior enemies -- all the time. And where the efforts were greater at a certain period of time, it was all depending on the situation and how these enemies were acting. One thing was on the eve of the war the main activities were outside of the country, but when the time came, when the different counter revolutionary teams spring up in the country, then of course, the majority of the efforts were directed at this.

Interviewer: Why were foreign idealists willing to help Soviet Intelligence?

Vladimir Semichastny: Oh so, you may call them idealists, or you may call them Communists or patriots. It's up to you. But you should understand what the situation was at this time. The young Soviet State was in very difficult situation after the revolution and the civil war. The country was destroyed. It was complete destruction everywhere. There was a real danger of famine, illnesses among the population, and so on. The situation on the international scale was quite serious also. It was a real blockade of the Soviet Union, from the side of the Western states. Do you remember when the United States has recognised the Soviet state, and also about the same about the major European countries. Naturally, there were some working class and intellectuals. Suddenly some of them wanted to help this young country, both morally and materially. I think that is the explanation they of their co-operation, their attitudes, and their help and assistance.

Interviewer: Did Philby or MacClean or other foreign spies ever tell him why they did what they did?

Vladimir Semichastny: Yes, I've met Philby and Blake, of course, when they were already in the Soviet Union, but not often, once or twice. When we were speaking, when I was speaking with men, I didn't consider it a polite question to ask them: why did they start co-operation with us? But, as I was told before, that initially it was on the ideological grounds they believe in the goals of a new country and the goals of this society, and they wanted to do their best. They wanted to help us. I would like to stress that they assist us with no charge. They never received any fees or any payment for their services. The Soviet State has granted all of them with certain orders -- sometimes presents -- but it was on our behalf as a show of our appreciation of their work. They never demanded themselves any pay or anything. It was absolutely obviously on ideological grounds.

Interviewer: What qualities did it take for people like Blake, Philby and the Cohens to do their work? Was it bravery or something else?

Vladimir Semichastny: I believe that they were brave people. One should be of courageous character to do what they had done, not only this, one should be a person of strong character and bravery -- not ordinary people. That what I would call them. It's not like some petty official or something that decided to defect to the other side. For them it was a very serious moment.

Interviewer: Who was Colonel Molody? What was his mission? What had his mission been in the UK?

Vladimir Semichastny: Molody -- he was a Soviet citizen, Ukrainian by nationality. His mother was a teacher, and he was trained for quite a long time here to work in English speaking country environment. In the long run he was sent to the United Kingdom. He lived and worked there as a legal agent, in Britain, and provided us with the intelligence, information, which we consider necessary to us. That's what I can tell about him.

Interviewer: The Soviet intelligence service is almost unique in its use of illegals. How were they trained? How did they actual prepare an illegal for an assignment abroad?

Vladimir Semichastny: I cannot say that it was the most important issue on our agenda. Let's put it this way, it was not a mass production. The illegals were used with what you call, may call, conventional intelligence procedures. The idea was to train them properly to do this or that country, to put down the roots, open business, to establish certain relations, friendships. To get to the institutions or the companies we were interested in and thus to obtain necessary information. There were not so many of them, because it's unique. Yeah, you're correct in saying not every intelligence in the world are using the illegals. As for the process itself, I cannot disclose it, because I would not be surprised that this work is still continuing. So I do not want to give any hints regarding it. One of our generals in his book -- he touched upon this issue to a certain extent and that gave the possibility for the United States counter intelligence to find some of our guys there. So, if it is a useful work let them continue it. In any case, I would like to stress that it is a very difficult and very intense work. You do not train illegals in auditory room or in the classes. It's a piecemeal operation. You work with an individual, one on one, and only in such a way, we can make them look like an Englishman or a Spaniard or a German.

Interviewer: What was Molody's target? Was it British Navel intelligence secrets?

Vladimir Semichastny: I wouldn't put it this way. The thing is that with the illegals, the procedure was different. At first their target was to settle down, to establish themselves in this society, and then to try, with an open mind, to look around and to see where they can go, where they can get information. And only then, when it was clear in both directions what direction was most obvious to them, only then the centre would put to them more or less to their direct tasks. We never started by sending illegals with a direct task or direct aim, because in that case it wasn't the approach in any case.

Interviewer: Where were Molody and the Krogers concentrating their efforts?

Vladimir Semichastny: It's difficult for me to you give any details today. First of all, it's more than thirty-years have passed, and the second, is that I didn't -- I haven't read all of his reports. Well, I know that his efforts were around the navy base in Britain. But what did he focus his activities on? It's difficult for me to say right now. Too many years have passed.

Interviewer: How significant was Penkovskyas a spy?

Vladimir Semichastny: Well, rather important, of course, but not in the way like he is being put in the West, like the saviour of the world from the nuclear holocaust. He was colonel of GRU, and he worked at the scientific and technical committee as the deputy head of department, and thus he has -- he had an ability to study rather important and secret documents, which he passed over to the West. From that point of view, yes, he was important, but he never was an extra-class spy or anything.

Interviewer: Was Penkovsky an idealist or a traitor?

Vladimir Semichastny: Yes, we consider him as a traitor. Let's start from the fact that he started his service in the military intelligence in the Soviet embassy in Turkey. But he didn't manage to establish any good relations with his colleagues, and everybody was against him, and they actually -- he was sent out from Turkey. And he was also dismissed from the military intelligence. Only later, with the assistance from some of his friends and acquaintances, he was re-established in the military intelligence. He wasn't satisfied with what he was getting, and he start sending -- dropping his personal letters to the United States Embassy and to the UK Embassy until they reacted. And I've read a transcript of his talks which he had with the United States and UK intelligence officials. The main issue in all of the talks was money. He was demanding money. He was asking to be provided a big number of presents which were interpreted as that he had to submit these presents to the top, to the superiors from whom he is getting this information required, etceteras. He was, I think imagining himself that his main aim was to become a colonel in the US Army or in the British Army, and to get more money. That's it. Full stop. There is no issue of idealism or patriotism or nothing.

Interviewer: Tell us, in your own words, what Penkovsky's final sentence was? Do you think whether that was a correct sentence?

Vladimir Semichastny: I fully agree with the decision taken by the Soviet court, and the decision was that on the grounds of being a traitor to the Motherland that he should be shot. It was a well-grounded decision, and it was in accordance with the criminal code of the Soviet Union at this time. That was the kind of punishment which he was envisaged for this kind of deeds.

Interviewer: What did the KGB achieve after 80 years of intelligence?

Vladimir Semichastny: KGB was inseparable part of the Soviet Union and the whole structure of the Soviet society. We believe that the achievements of the Soviet Union and of the Soviet society, it's main achievements until the split in 1991, it was at the same time the main achievements of the KGB, because it was working for the same cause.

Interviewer: So what specifically were those achievements?

Vladimir Semichastny: Just to mention a few of these achievements. First of all, after all the destruction in the civil war and after World War II, the country became the second greatest power in the world, after the United States. The second thing that we shouldn't forget about the space achievements of the country. Third thing is the victory in World War II, where this country managed to fight against the great enemy and still to win, and then after World War II, after seven years the national economy was back to the situation that it was before the wa,r and all these limitations and rationing was dismissed. This is just a few global milestones, not to mention such things as a good National Health Service, etceteras. I may speak for hours about it.

Interviewer: But those are all achievements in the Soviet state. What specifically did the KGB contribute to that?

Vladimir Semichastny: Of course, improved. Otherwise how? Do you think that our technical intelligence was aimed only at the nuclear bombs? No, it was aimed at the medical technologies as well.

Interviewer: What other areas did the KGB spy on?

Vladimir Semichastny: So, it will be very long list regarding where KGB was participating, because it was a very unique organization in the Soviet Union. From this point of view, if there was some problems, say, with real ministry, the KGB was giving an analysis of what was wrong about it and giving it's recommendations. Then one day the ministry or the minister of aviation industry came to me and he told me that, well, we've got a problem: we need the, the recent developments of such and such a subject from the west, can you help us? And I told him, well, if you can provide me a million-and-a-half I will try to obtain the necessary information for you which you required. We also were dealing in many developments: in the medicine, different branches of the industry, national health, even culture, no, culture to much lesser extent. So that's why I was quite serious when mentioning the achievements of the Soviet State as the achievements of the KGB. And even such an example, for instance, who is the Russian cosmonaut who first walked in space? It's funny story about this walking in outer space. All this film which was showed during this time, it was done by using KGB movie equipment and all this, because it was the smallest one that can be installed in the space craft, very conveniently. It was very specific equipment, very specific film. So the film after that was developed in KGB laboratories. Only then it was provided for these documentary film and all the rest. At a later stage, they refused to give their equipment, saying the space research is not our business -- develop your own. It's just like an example to confirm my words, that we are related to everything.

Interviewer: How are achievements of the Soviet State connected with achievements of KGB?

Vladimir Semichastny: What do you think? That they were stealing only the nuclear secrets? No, we've done a lot for the development of the different branches of science and industry medicine and all that. You can name any subject or development in the Soviet Union, and the KGB was participating in it. During World War II, do you think that intelligence and counter intelligence was being idle? Of course the army was doing a great job, but the intelligence was even sometimes ahead of the army, working behind the enemy lines. It's worth mentioning Cheka was established after the civil war, when there were a lot of children left homeless and without their parents. It was Cheka which was responsible for organizing some special schools and houses for them to live. So, in any aspect or the construction and the -- in any achievement of the Soviet Union, the KGB has introduced a certain of its own.

Interviewer: Do you consider the Cohens as traitors?

Vladimir Semichastny: It's a matter of evaluation. The Americans consider the Cohens as traitors, and we consider them as agents working for us. It's a question of attitudes. Coming back to Penkovsky, the American's consider him a super spy, but we consider him a traitor. It's a question whom he was working for. Actually, speaking about Penkovsky, I would like to continue the story. After his arrest, I was the first one to see him. He was taken to my office. And you know what he told me? He told me that being double agent working for the United States and for United Kingdom, that he's ready to serve the goals of -- to serve for the benefit of the KGB, and now he's working there as a double agent. That's the face of this person. He's a double dealer from the very beginning, and for us, he's a traitor. And that's life, and that's the Cold War. And even when the Cold War is over, this game will be continuing. There will always be victories, and there will always be failures in this secret war, which is going on among the states.

Interviewer: What reassurance did the KGB try to give its spies and agents in the field? How did it set about to try and make them feel the KGB would look after them?

Vladimir Semichastny: I should say that every agent, especially the agent working in the field, was aware, if he was a true servant with his motherland, in case of some emergencies or arrest or anything, he can be sure that sooner or later the KGB will try to arrange an exchange or something to get him out of the jail, or bail him out, or anything. While they were there, the KGB was looking after their families, their children, the salary was being paid, accumulated, and there are many examples of this. At the first possible occasions, they were exchanged, either for agents who were arrested in the Soviet Union, or for some other people who were available at this time, and every KGB, especially the agents, they were aware of these efforts.