>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

>> Gene: THIS WEEK ON NEW  MEXICO IN FOCUS, ALBUQUERQUE MAYOR TIM KELLER IN A  WIDE-RANGING INTERVIEW YOU'LL ONLY SEE ON NMPBS.

THE MAYOR ASSESSES THE CITY'S BRIGHT SPOTS AND  CONTINUED CHALLENGES.

>> Keller: AFTER THE  PANDEMIC AND WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH WITH INFLATION,  THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TOUGH TIMES.

FOR THE FIRST TIME A LOT OF OUR INDICATORS ARE STARTING TO GO IN THE RIGHT  DIRECTION.

>> Gene: AND A FORMER  ALBUQUERQUE POET LAUREATE SHARES THE CHALLENGES AND  AWARDS OF WRITING ABOUT FAMILY, TRAUMA AND HISTORY.

NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS STARTS NOW.

THANKS FOR JOINING US.

I AM YOUR HOST, GENE GRANT.

THIS WEEK ON THE SHOW NEW MEXICO'S LARGEST CITY IS IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

FOLLOWING MAYOR TIM KELLER'S STATE OF THE CITY ADDRESS SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO SAT DOWN WITH HIM FOR AN INTERVIEW ABOUT ALL THINGS  ALBUQUERQUE, THE OPTIMISTIC, THE CHALLENGING AND THE  REST.

OVER THE NEXT TWO WEEKS, YOU'LL SEE FOUR  EXCERPTS FROM THAT IN-DEPTH INTERVIEW ALONG WITH  ANALYSIS FROM A SPECIAL LINE OPINION PANEL WITH DECADES  OF INSTITUTIONAL KNOWLEDGE.

WE BEGIN THIS WEEK WITH PART  1 A, CONVERSATION ABOUT WHERE ALBUQUERQUE IS HEADED.

AND HOW INITIATIVES TO ADDRESS HOMELESSNESS AND  CREATE MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING CAN LAY THE  GROUNDWORK.

>> Lou: MAYOR TIM KELLER,  THANKS FOR BEING HERE TODAY ON NEW MEXICO IN FOCUS.

>> Keller: GLAD TO BE WITH YOU LOU.

>> Lou: IN YOUR STATE OF THE CITY SPEECH ON SATURDAY, YOU  PAINTED A PICTURE OF THE CITY ON THE UPSWING IN SEVERAL KEY AREAS, PUBLIC SAFETY, ECONOMIC DEVELOPMENT, ADDRESSING HOMELESSNESS AND AFFORDABLE  HOUSING CRISIS.

IN A NUTSHELL WHAT WERE SOME  OF THE KEY DATA POINTS THAT INFORMED THE TONE OF THAT  SPEECH?

>> Keller: WELL, I THINK WE  ARE SEEING REALLY THE POWER OF US MAKING A DIFFERENCE IN ALBUQUERQUE AND IT IS SOMETHING THAT WE REALLY, YOU KNOW, AFTER THE PANDEMIC AND WHAT WE HAVE BEEN THROUGH EVEN WITH INFLATION, THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF TOUGH TIMES, BUT FOR THE FIRST TIME A LOT OF OUR INDICATORS ARE STARTING TO GO IN THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

NOW, SLIGHTLY AND WE ARE COMING FROM A PLACE THAT ISN'T GREAT, SO, BUT I THINK THERE IS SOME LIGHT THAT WE ARE SEEING AND THAT IS WHAT IT IS ALL ABOUT.

IT SEEMS LIKE THE GATEWAY CENTER BEING ABLE TO OPEN THIS YEAR, THAT WILL TAKE CARE OF 1000 PEOPLE A DAY  WHEN IT IS DONE.

AND PROVIDE HEALTH, HEALING,  ADDICTION SERVICES AND HOUSING.

SO, WE SEE THAT.

WE SEE OUR COMMUNITY SAFETY  DEPARTMENT THIS SUMMER SHOULD BE NOW OPERATING  24/7.

IT HAS TAKEN 32,000 CALLS  AWAY FROM APD, GIVING PEOPLE THE RIGHT HELP AT THE RIGHT  TIME.

SO, WHEN YOU LAYER THESE  THINGS IN, AND THEN ON TOP OF THE FACT THAT EVEN SOME  OF THE CRIME INDICATORS, WE ARE USING A VERY DIFFERENT  APPROACH FOR CRIME FIGHTING THAN WE HAVE IN THE PAST,  HIGHLY TECHNOLOGY DRIVEN, AND IT IS A LOT ABOUT USING  CIVILIANS WHEN WE CAN TO FREE UP OFFICERS TO TAKE  CALLS.

YOU SORT OF PUT THESE  TOGETHER WITH SOME LARGER BUILT ENVIRONMENT  ANNOUNCEMENTS.

THE FILM ACADEMY COMING TO  THE RAIL YARDS, WE HAVE BEEN WAITING FOR SOMETHING AT THE  RAIL YARDS FOR 40 YEARS.

AND NOW WE HAVE GOT IT.

THAT CONSTRUCTION WILL START THIS SUMMER.

SO, WHEN YOU LAYER ALL THESE UP, I THINK YOU SEE US SORT  OF STARTING TO REALIZE THAT PROMISE OF ALBUQUERQUE WHICH  IS A CITY, YOU KNOW, IN 1000 SQUARE MILES BASICALLY WHERE  WE ARE THE ONLY URBAN HUB.

PEOPLE COME TO ALBUQUERQUE  FOR ALL THOSE THINGS, FOR OPPORTUNITY, FOR HEALTHCARE,  FOR FUN AND RECREATION.

AND EVEN THINGS LIKE WE ARE  DOING WITH THE RAIL TRAIL TO RECONNECT OUR NEIGHBORHOODS  AND PROVIDE A NEW LANDMARK THAT WILL REALLY DEFINE OUR  CITY MUCH LIKE THE TRAM OR THE ZOO.

THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE COMING IN THE NEXT FEW  YEARS, AND SO WE ARE STARTING TO BREAK GROUND ON  THEM AND SEE THAT PROGRESS HAPPENING.

AND I THINK THAT IS HELPING LIFT UP ALBUQUERQUE.

LASTLY I JUST TOUCH ON DOWNTOWN.

YOU KNOW, AGAIN, A LONG WAYS TO GO BUT I THINK FOLKS  WOULD AGREE SINCE WE DID SOME OF OUR WORK WITH THE  BUSINESS PARTNERS AND THE TEAM PROGRAM AND IT WORKED  ON HOUSING AND SUPPORT SERVICES, DOWNTOWN IS  DEFINITELY BETTER THAN IT WAS THIS TIME LAST YEAR OR  SIX MONTHS AGO.

A LONG WAY TO GO,  ABSOLUTELY, BUT, AGAIN, I THINK YOU SEE US TURNING  THAT CORNER.

>> Lou: WE'LL GET INTO A LOT  OF THOSE SPECIFICS IN A MINUTE BUT I WANT TO START  WITH HOMELESSNESS IS ONE OF THE ISSUE AREAS.

WE HAVE BEEN HEARING FOR YEARS GATEWAY CENTER YOU  MENTIONED IS A MAJOR PIECE IN ADDRESSING HOMELESS  CRISIS HERE.

WHAT HAVE BEEN SOME OF THE  BIGGEST CONTRIBUTORS TO THE DELAYS IN THAT PROJECT AND  DO YOU HAVE A TIME LINE ON WHEN THAT WILL BE COMPLETED?

>> Keller: YES.

WE DO SEE IT BEING ABLE TO  REACH 1000 PEOPLE A DAY, WHICH IS WHAT IT USED TO  TAKE CARE OF BACK WHEN IT WAS A HOSPITAL, BY THE END  OF THE YEAR.

SO WE ARE ON TARGET FOR  THAT.

I THINK UNFORTUNATELY IN REVERSE ORDER, THE MOST  RECENT ISSUE IS SOME ASBESTOS WHICH NOW WE HAVE  REMEDIATED AND WE ARE BACK ON TRACK.

BEFORE THAT IT WAS A BIG ZONING BATTLE.

THE NEIGHBORHOOD AROUND IT DIDN'T WANT IT.

SO, THAT HAD TO GO THROUGH THE PROCESS.

THAT DELAYED IT FOR QUITE SOMETIME, BUT WHAT YOU SEE  AROUND THIS IS THE GATEWAY IS PART OF A SPECTRUM OF  THINGS THAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO AROUND HOUSING AND  HOMELESSNESS.

THAT IS A 24/7 DROPOFF WHERE  WE CAN TAKE PEOPLE, NO BARRIERS, AND THEN THEY ARE  CONNECTED WITH DIFFERENT SERVICES, WHETHER IT IS  HOUSING OR JOB TRAINING OR ADDICTION OR TREATMENT.

AND SO IT LITERALLY LIKE IS A GATEWAY, THAT IS WHY WE  CALL IT THAT.

IT IS A GATEWAY TO OTHER  SERVICES BY OTHER PROVIDERS.

>> Lou: LET'S TALK ABOUT  SO-CALLED SAFE OUTDOOR SPACES FOR A MINUTE.

THEY HAVE BEEN CALLED THAT IN THE PAST AND YOU HAVE  BEEN CRITICAL OF CITY COUNCIL BACK AND FORTH ON DO  THEY LIKE THEM, DO THEY NOT LIKE THEM SINCE THE CORONADO PARK SITUATION LAST YEAR.

WHAT IS YOUR THINKING ON THEM NOW AND HOW DO YOU SEE THEM FITTING INTO THE LARGER PUZZLE OF SOLVING THE HOMELESS ISSUE HERE?

>> Keller: WE WANT EVERY TOOL IN THE TOOL KIT SO IT IS HELPFUL TO HAVE A SAFE OUTDOOR SPACE TOOL.

NOW WE'VE RARELY USED IT.

WE DID USE IT TWICE ESPECIALLY FOR THESE DRIVE-UP AREAS FOR PEOPLE LIVING IN THEIR CARS.

I THINK THOSE WERE VERY SUCCESSFUL.

IN TERMS OF HAVING SORT OF THIS BROADER SETUP LIKE YOU SEE IN DENVER AND SOMETHING LIKE THAT, BASICALLY THE RESTRICTIONS THAT COUNCIL PUT ON IT MAKE IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR A NONPROFIT TO RUN.

SO EVERY NONPROFIT THAT TRIED COULDN'T MEET THE CRITERIA THEY SET UP.

THEY ARE NOT REALLY FEASIBLE AT THIS POINT TO THE SCALE THAT PEOPLE HAD INTENDED BUT THAT IS BY ORDINANCE, SO IT IS WHAT IT IS.

BUT, I AM SO GLAD WE HAVE VARIATIONS OF IT AVAILABLE SHOULD WE NEED IT, BECAUSE WE DEFINITELY NEED EVERY APPROACH WE CAN TO THIS CHALLENGE.

>> Lou: SEVERAL FOLKS WHO USED TO CAMP AT CORONADO PARK ARE SUING THE CITY AND I JUST WANTED TO ASK ABOUT THE CONTENTION THERE THAT  THE CITY MADE IT IMPOSSIBLE FOR PEOPLE TO BE ANYWHERE  OUTSIDE OF THE SHELTER CONTEXT.

IS THAT ACCURATE?

>> Keller: WELL, ALL YOU HAVE TO DO IS DRIVE AROUND ALBUQUERQUE, IT IS DEFINITELY NOT ACCURATE.

THERE ARE PEOPLE OUTSIDE THE SHELTER CONSTRUCT ALL OVER THE CITY FOR BETTER OR WORSE.

I THINK THIS IS NOT TRUE.

SO, I DO KNOW THAT THAT COURT CASE IS ALMOST  RESOLVED BUT I THINK WHAT IS IMPORTANT, LOOK, WE LEARNED,  CORONADO PARK WHEN WE CLOSED IT, THERE WERE ALL SORTS OF  IMMINENT ISSUES.

THERE WAS A MURDER AND THERE  WERE NOW DOCUMENTED TRAFFICKING OF -- ACTUALLY I  FORGET THE NUMBER OF FENTANYL PILLS AND ALL THESE  ISSUES THERE, SO WE HAD TO DO WHAT WE HAD TO DO.

WHAT WE SAW AT FIRST AND, YOU KNOW, I THINK AT FIRST  AND INDIAN SCHOOL OR SECOND AND INDIAN SCHOOL, WE DID  THAT VERY DIFFERENT.

WE USED A HOUSTON MODEL.

HOUSING FIRST APPROACH WHERE WE GOT SOMETHING LIKE 80%,  MAYBE 90% OF THEM INTO A PLACE WHERE THEY CAN SLEEP.

LIKE, DIRECTLY.

AND THAT IS NOW WHAT WE TRY  AND DO GOING FORWARD.

LITERALLY WE SAY, YOU KNOW,  WE HAVE TO NOT HAVE THIS ENCAMPMENT FOR ALL THE RIGHT  LEGAL REASONS AND SAFETY REASONS.

BUT, ALSO WE WILL LITERALLY DRIVE YOU RIGHT NOW TO AN  APARTMENT.

THAT IS WHAT WE WERE ABLE TO  DO THERE.

WE FIGURED A WAY TO DO THIS  IN A MUCH BETTER WAY AND THAT IS THE MODEL WE WILL  USE GOING FORWARD.

>> Lou: BACK TO THE COURT  CASE JUST BRIEFLY.

WHY DO YOU THINK IT IS  ALMOST OVER?

>> Keller: THERE IS AN  UPDATE THAT I GOT THAT SAID THAT WE ARE IN PRETTY SOUND  LEGAL GROUNDS FOR WHAT WE HAD TO DO.

BUT, AGAIN, WE'LL SEE, OBVIOUSLY IT IS UP TO A  JUDGE.

>> Lou: SURE.

NOW, MANY UNHOUSED PEOPLE, YOU MENTIONED 80, 90% WERE  ABLE TO GET INTO SHELTERS, BUT WE OBVIOUSLY KNOW SOME PEOPLE REFUSED TO GO INTO SHELTERS WHETHER OUT OF FEAR OR OTHER REASONS.

WHAT IS THE SOLUTION THERE FOR THOSE PEOPLE?

>> Keller: WELL, IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON.

HOMELESSNESS IS VERY COMPLICATED.

AND WE HAVE LEARNED THAT YOU REALLY CAN'T PUT PEOPLE IN DIFFERENT CATEGORIES.

LITERALLY IT DEPENDS ON THE PERSON.

IT COULD BE AN ADDICTION-RELATED ISSUE.

THERE ARE SOME PEOPLE WHO IT IS SORT OF A MORE  LIBERTARIAN APPROACH, WHERE THEY JUST WANT TO BE WHEREVER THEY WANT TO BE.

SO, THAT IS ALWAYS THE MOST  DIFFICULT SITUATION, BUT WHAT WE ARE TRYING TO DO IS  SOLVE THE OTHER END, WHICH IS FOR THE VAST MAJORITY OF  PEOPLE WHO WANT TO BE OFF THE STREET, MY APPROACH IS  LET'S HELP THEM.

LET'S GET THEM OFF THE  STREET AND THEN IF ONE DAY WE ONLY HAVE PEOPLE WHO MEET  THAT CRITERIA, WE'LL DEAL WITH THAT.

IF I CAN GET HALF THE PEOPLE OFF THE STREETS INTO  HOUSING, I'LL TAKE THAT.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE FOCUSED ON.

>> Lou: WE HAVE HEARD ALLEGATIONS THAT CITY EMPLOYEES HAVE CONFISCATED  AND SOMETIMES THROWN OUT HOMELESS PEOPLES'  BELONGINGS.

IS THAT STILL HAPPENING?

>> Keller: THERE IS PRETTY STRICT RULES AND PROTOCOLS  ON ALL OF THAT AND THOSE ARE EVEN RUN THROUGH MULTIPLE  LAYERS OF ADVISORY COMMITTEE AND MRAC AND ALL THESE THINGS.

SO, I AM NOT AWARE OF ANY SPECIFIC VIOLATIONS.

I KNOW THERE IS ALWAYS RUMORS AND MYTHS WITH EVERYTHING.

IF THERE ARE, WE CERTAINLY WILL HOLD THEM ACCOUNTABLE BUT THERE SHOULDN'T BE.

>> Lou: I KNOW YOU MENTIONED GATEWAY CENTER.

WHAT IS THE CITY DOING TO ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES OF HOMELESSNESS INCLUDING ADDICTION, MENTAL HEALTH, LACK OF ECONOMIC OPPORTUNITY?

I KNOW THE GATEWAY IS A BIG  PART OF THAT, OUTSIDE THE GATEWAY TOO.

>> Keller: WE WANT TO HAVE SEVERAL MINI GATEWAYS ALL  OVER THE CITY.

WE WANT A DISTRIBUTED MODEL.

NOW A LOT OF CONTRACTORS RUN THOSE.

SO, YOU KNOW, THE CITY SPENT TEN'S OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS  EVERY YEAR WITH NONPROFITS WHO PROVIDE THOSE SERVICES  BUT WE ALSO KNOW THAT THE COUNTY, OF COURSE, HAS THE  TAX AND THEY SORT OF FUNDAMENTALLY HAVE  JURISDICTION OVER THOSE PLACES BUT WE WANT TO MAKE  SURE THE GATEWAY IS AT LEAST ONE PLACE WHERE PEOPLE CAN  GO 24/7 WITH NO BARRIERS AND THAT IS WHAT WE DON'T HAVE.

SO, ALBUQUERQUE HAS NEVER HAD THIS.

THIS IS WHERE WE ARE BEHIND ALMOST EVERY MAJOR CITY IN  THE COUNTRY.

UNTIL WE HAVE THAT TO  CONNECT PEOPLE UP TO WHERE THOSE SERVICES ARE, THAT  WILL BE A CHALLENGE BUT, LOOK, THE OTHER THING IS WE  HAVE TO BUILD OUR HOUSING STOCK.

I KNOW YOU MENTIONED THAT, BUT, IF WE NEED 30,000 UNITS  LIKE CLEARLY, THE ANSWER IS A PLACE TO SLEEP AT NIGHT  THAT IS SAFE AND HAS SERVICES.

IT IS NOT, YOU KNOW, ESSENTIALLY SAYING THAT WE  CAN'T -- HOUSING AND HOMELESSNESS ARE DEFINITELY  RELATED.

WE ARE WORKING ON THAT  PIECE.

AND THE NEW ATS DEPARTMENT, WE ARE MAKING  SURE THE PEOPLE WHO DO NEED HELP ARE GETTING SOCIAL  WORKERS TO COME OUT TO THEM WHERE THEY ARE, WALKING WITH  THEM ON THEIR JOURNEY.

THAT IS WHAT THAT DEPARTMENT  IS ALL ABOUT.

THIS IS THE FIRST OF ITS  KIND IN THE COUNTRY.

SO, I THINK THESE THINGS  WHEN YOU PUT THEM TOGETHER, YOU SEE AT LEAST THAT  ALBUQUERQUE HAS SOME ANSWERS.

AND A LOT OF THE CITIES AROUND US THEY ARE SWALLOWED BY THESE PROBLEMS, WHERE THEY ARE JUST OVERWHELMED BY HOMELESSNESS AND CRIME AND I THINK THIS IS WHERE PART OF THE STATE OF THE CITY IS ABOUT OUR PROMISE IS STILL ALIVE.

WE STILL HAVE A CHANCE IN ALBUQUERQUE TO ACTUALLY HAVE A VIBRANT INCREDIBLE CITY.

SOME OF THESE OTHER CITIES RIGHT NOW ARE COMPLETELY CAVING UNDER THESE ISSUES AND SO THAT IS WHY WE HAVE GOT A FIGHTING CHANCE HERE.

THAT IS WHY WE ARE FUNDAMENTALLY AND CAUTIOUSLY OPTIMISTIC.

>> Lou: 30,000 YEARS, I WANT TO GET THERE IN HOUSING, WHAT IS YOUR NO.

1 PRIORITY FOR CREATING MORE AFFORDABLE HOUSING TO SHRUNK THAT GAP?

>> Keller: WHEN YOU HAVE A GAP THAT IS 30,000, THE CITY, WE ARE OWNING THIS.

WE ARE SAYING LET'S TAKE THESE OLD HOTELS AND CONVERT THEM TO APARTMENTS.

WE HAVE ONE UNDERWAY RIGHT NOW, 100 UNITS WILL BE FINISHED IN JUST A FEW MONTHS AND WE'RE LOOKING AT OUR SECOND PURCHASE PRETTY  SOON.

SO WE ARE GOING TO DO WHAT WE CAN PENDING FUNDING  TO SORT OF LEAD THE WAY AND DEMONSTRATE HOW TO DO THAT.

BUT WHEN YOU NEED 30,000 UNITS, 100 AT A TIME ISN'T  GOING TO GET YOU THERE.

THAT BRINGS US TO THIS  ZONING DISCUSSION WHICH IS NOW IN FRONT OF COUNCIL.

JUNE 5 THEY ARE GOING TO HAVE A TOUGH DECISION AND IT  IS REALLY GOING TO BE, YOU KNOW, ARE WE GOING TO HAVE A  ZONING CODE THAT WE DO NOW, WHICH IS VERY RESTRICTIVE,  VERY OUTDATED, AND IT ESSENTIALLY INCENTIVIZES  SUBURBAN SPRAWL WHICH WILL THEN HOLLOW OUT OUR CORE.

THAT IS WHERE WE ARE GOING UNLESS WE CHANGE IT.

WHAT WE ARE PROPOSING IS CHANGE IT TO REALLY GROW  FILL IN AND SORT OF FILL UP A LITTLE BIT.

AND THE BIGGEST THING IRONICALLY IS CASITAS, A  PLACE FOR YOUR GRANDPARENT OR LIKE YOUR ADULT KID.

THAT IS THE SINGLE BIGGEST THING WE COULD DO.

BUT THERE IS OTHER THINGS ABOUT CONVERTING COMMERCIAL  REAL ESTATE INTO RESIDENTIAL, SO CONVERTING EMPTY OFFICE BUILDINGS TO APARTMENTS AND CONVERTING HOTELS TO APARTMENTS.

ALL THOSE ARE THINGS WE CAN DO TO INCENTIVIZE, I THINK, A VIBRANT CITY THAT TRULY DELIVERIES ON THIS IDEA THAT ALBUQUERQUE WILL BE THE URBAN CORE FOR NEW MEXICO.

>> Lou: IF THAT VOTE DOESN'T GO YOUR WAY, WHAT IS THE NEXT STEP THEN AT THAT POINT?

>> Keller: I WILL SAY I HOPE AT LEAST SOME OF IT AND MAJORITY PASSES.

AND WE ARE OPEN TO AMENDMENTS, OPEN TO CHANGES,  SO, I DO REALLY HOPE IT IS NOT SORT OF THROWING THE  BABY OUT WITH THE BATH WATER ON THIS.

THAT WOULD BE DEVASTATING FOR OUR CITY.

NOW, WE'LL JUST HAVE TO SEE, ACTUALLY.

THAT IS WHAT I'LL SPEND THE SUMMER DOING IF IT FAILS IS  COMING UP WITH A NEW PLAN, BUT, LOOK, IT TOOK US THREE  PLANS TO FIGURE OUT THE FILM CENTER AT RAIL YARD.

WE ARE ON ROUND 2 OF A STADIUM AND SO I THINK FOLKS  HAVE LEARNED ALSO WE ARE ON LIKE ROUND 8 OF THE GATEWAY.

I AM NOT GOING TO GIVE UP AND I'LL KEEP PROBLEM SOLVING UNTIL WE GET IT RIGHT.

>> Lou: HUD DATA SHOWS THAT RENT IN ALBUQUERQUE IS UP MORE THAN 30% IN THREE YEARS.

HOW CAN PEOPLE AFFORD TO STAY IN THE CITY IF THAT CONTINUES AND IS ADDING MORE HOUSING THE SOLUTION THAT SOLVES THAT?

>> Keller: FUNDAMENTALLY THAT PRICE IS DRIVEN BY SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

AND I THINK THAT IS SOMETHING OVERTIME THAT HAS  JUST BECOME CLEAR IN EVERY CITY IN AMERICA.

YES, WE NEED TO ADD TO THE SUPPLY.

THE KEY IS WE NEED TO ADD TO THE SUPPLY AT SORT OF ALL  THE DIFFERENT PRICE POINTS WHERE THERE IS RENTAL  PRESSURE.

SO, AGAIN, THAT IS WHY THE  CITY IS FOCUSED ON THAT SORT OF SUPPORTIVE AND AFFORDABLE  END, BUT WE ALSO NEED THE PRIVATE SECTOR TO HAVE MORE  UNITS.

AND IT IS ALSO, I THINK,  THIS DOES GO BACK TO 2008 AND THIS NOTION OF LIKE,  WHAT SIZE OF HOUSE SHOULD PEOPLE HAVE AND THIS KIND OF  THING.

YOU KNOW.

I WANT TO HOPEFULLY UNDERSTAND THAT LIKE WHAT  ALBUQUERQUE DOESN'T NEED IS JUST A BUNCH OF TRACK HOUSES  LIKE OUT IN THE MIDDLE OF THE MESA.

WE NEED PLANNING AROUND NEIGHBORHOODS, AROUND  SCHOOLS AND PUBLIC SAFETY AND WE NEED ALL SORTS OF  SIZES OF HOUSES TO MATCH WHERE PEOPLE ARE AT.

THAT  WAS THE BIG MISTAKE THAT AMERICA MADE IN 2008.

>> Lou: RENT STABILIZATION MEASURES FAILED AT CITY  COUNCIL AND FAILED IN THE STATE LEGISLATURE.

WHAT OTHER CONCRETE STEPS CAN YOUR ADMINISTRATION TAKE  TO CURB THIS SPIKE IN RENT BEFORE WE FILL OUT THE HOUSING MARKET, AS YOU SAY?

>> Keller: WE HAVE A RENT SUPPORT FUND WHICH IS SOMETHING WE HAVE BEEN PUTTING MONEY INTO SO I WOULD ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO REACH OUT TO THE CITY IF THEY WANT ACCESS TO THAT.

WE CAN SORT OF BUY TIME FOR PEOPLE AND THEN, OF COURSE,  WE ALSO NEED TO ENFORCE, I THINK, THE BIGGEST THING IS  RENTAL DISCRIMINATION, WHERE OWNERS AND LANDLORDS WON'T  TAKE, WHETHER IT IS VOUCHERS OR RENT SUBSIDIES, AND SO  OUR OFFICE OF CIVIL RIGHTS IS KEYED UP TO DO THAT AND  WE HAVE ORDINANCES BEHIND IT.

SO THIS IS ANOTHER AREA WHERE WE WANT TO PUSH BACK AGAINST PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT ALLOWING THOSE KINDS OF PROGRAMS.

IN THE SHORT TERM WE DO NEED TO THINK ABOUT EMPLOYMENT AND HOW WE CAN ACTUALLY LIFT UP PEOPLES' MEDIAN INCOME.

AND THAT BRINGS US TO SOME OF THE OTHER THINGS WE ARE DOING IN THE CITY.

THOSE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS WE CAN HELP AND, YOU KNOW, FOR BETTER OR WORSE, THE STATE LAW IS WHAT IT IS.

SO, UNLESS THAT IS CHANGED WE CAN'T DO ANYTHING DIRECTLY WITH PRICES.

>> G ene: WELCOME TO OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS FOR THE WEEK.

WE ARE JOINED IN STUDIO THIS WEEK BY UNM LAW PROFESSOR  AND PRESIDENT OF THE HOUSING ASSISTANCE NONPROFIT KNOWN AS AMPARO, THAT IS SERGE MARTINEZ.

TOM GLOVER IS ACROSS THE TABLE.

HE IS AN ATTORNEY AND FORMER  ALBUQUERQUE POLICE SERGEANT.

AND BACK ACROSS THE TABLE IS  LAN SENA, VERY PLEASED TO HAVE HER WITH US, POLICY  DIRECTOR AT THE CENTER FOR CIVIC POLICY AND, OF COURSE,  A FORMER ALBUQUERQUE CITY COUNCILOR, THANK YOU ALL FOR BEING HERE.

AFFORDABLE HOUSING AND HOMELESSNESS WERE TWO KEY AREA AND ISSUES WE WANTED TO GET OUT RIGHT AWAY WITH MAYOR KELLER.

HE SAID YOU CAN'T TALK ABOUT ONE WITHOUT TALKING ABOUT THE OTHER THAT A LOT OF CITIES AROUND THE U.S. ARE BEING, QUOTE, SWALLOWED BY THESE PROBLEMS.

ALBUQUERQUE, ON THE OTHER HAND, HAS, QUOTE, A FIGHTING  CHANCE.

ACCORDING TO THE MAYOR, OF  COURSE.

THAT IS HIS LANGUAGE.

MS. SENA WHEN YOU CONSIDER THE STATE OF THE  HOMELESSNESS IN THE CITY, IS ALBUQUERQUE OVERWHELMED?

IS THE MAYOR RIGHT HERE OR SHOULD WE BE THINKING ABOUT  THIS IN ANOTHER WAY.

>> Lan: I THINK WHEN IT COMES TO OUR FOLKS WHO ARE UNSHELTERED AND HOMELESS I THINK HE IS RIGHT IN TRYING TO SPEAK TO BOTH ISSUES.

WE HAVE THOSE THAT ARE FACING PRECARIOUSNESS AND UNCERTAINTY IN THEIR OWN HOUSING AS RENT IS INCREASING.

WE SAW IN THE STATE  LEGISLATURE A REPORT RELEASED ABOUT HOW MANY OF  OUR COMMUNITY MEMBERS WITHIN OUR STATE OF NEW MEXICO ARE  FACING THESE ISSUES OF INABILITY TO AFFORD RENT.

LOOKING FOR HOUSING AND AVAILABILITY OF HOUSING.

I THINK IN TERMS OF THE POPULATION OF OUR  UNSHELTERED THAT IS AN ISSUE WE HAVE LONG FACED EVEN AT  THE INCEPTION OF OR CITY.

>> Gene: I HAVE GOT TO GET,  SERGE, FOR YOU TO PICK UP ON THAT.

THAT STUDY STATE-WIDE.

WE CONCENTRATE SO MUCH ON  THE HOUSING ISSUES HERE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

HOW DID THAT HIT YOU WHEN YOU SEE THE STATE-WIDE  HOMELESS PROBLEM WE SEE.

>> Serge: I WISH I COULD SAY  IT WAS SURPRISING.

IT IS DIS-SPIRITING, ACTUALLY.

AND IT IS, YOU KNOW, IT IS SOBERING TO BE REMINDED IT IS NOT JUST IN OUR BIGGEST CITIES THAT WE ARE HAVING THESE ISSUES AND ALBUQUERQUE -- EVERY PLACE IN NEW MEXICO IS GOING TO BE DIFFERENT BUT ALBUQUERQUE HAS MORE RESOURCES THAN ANY OTHER PLACE AND REALLY DOES NEED TO LEAD THE WAY AND PROVIDE SOME SORT OF EXAMPLE OR MODEL THAT WE CAN MAYBE TRY TO EXPORT TO OTHER  PLACES TAKING INTO ACCOUNT LOCAL VARIATIONS.

>> Gene: TOM, GOOD TO SEE YOU.

IT HAS BEEN A FEW YEARS SINCE YOU HAVE BEEN AT THE  TABLE.

LET'S GET BACK TO THE MAYOR  HERE.

WE HAVE COVERED THE CITY  COUNCIL'S FLIP-FLOPPING, OF COURSE, ON THE SAFE OUTDOORS  SPACES, MAYOR MOST RECENTLY CALLED THAT TENT CITIES  DURING HIS SPEECH.

DURING OUR INTERVIEW,  HOWEVER, MR. KELLER SAYS, QUOTE, THEY ARE NOT REALLY  FEASIBLE TO THE SCALE THAT WAS INTENDED."

CITY ORDINANCE, RESTRICTIONS THINGS LIKE THAT.

IS THE MAYOR FLIP-FLOPPING ON THIS ISSUE TOO?

HOW DO  YOU HEAR THIS.

HE WAS SO STRONG ON THIS  IDEA OF SAFE OUTDOOR SPACES AND I HEAR A LOT OF REVERSE  GEAR HERE.

>> Tom: WELL, I THINK HE IS PIVOTING AS TO WHERE HIS MESSAGE IS RESONATING MOST.

THE SAFE OUTDOOR SPACES CLEARLY WAS A FLOP AND HE RECEIVED WIDESPREAD OBJECTION TO IT, SO HE IS  TRYING TO PIVOT AND FIND SOMETHING ELSE THAT MAY RESONATE.

THE CONSEQUENCES OF THAT  PIVOT ARE, FOR INSTANCE, THE CORONADO FORMER RESIDENTS'  LAWSUIT AGAINST THE CITY, WHICH IS NOT ALMOST WRAPPING  UP.

IT IS ACTUALLY JUST GETTING  IN THE HEAT OF THINGS.

>> Gene: OH, INTERESTING.

WHY IS THAT SO?

I AM CURIOUS AS YOU SAY  THAT.

>> Tom: THAT IS WHAT THE  COURT DOCKET SHOWS.

THE CITY TRIED TO GET THE  CASE DISMISSED AND THAT WAS SUMMARILY DENIED A WEEK AGO,  SO WHEN THE MAYOR SAID THAT IT IS ALMOST WRAPPING UP,  NO, IT IS ALMOST REALLY GETTING GOING, A MORE  ACCURATE REPRESENTATION.

>> Gene: GLAD YOU PICKED UP  ON THAT.

THAT IS INTERESTING.

COUNCILOR, THE MAYOR WANTS THE GATEWAY CENTER TO BE A  HUB FOR PEOPLE, AS WE KNOW, WHO NEED HOUSING AND MENTAL  HEALTH SERVICES BUT GETTING IT UP AND RUNNING HAS BEEN  BUMPY INCLUDING ASBESTOS IN THE BUILDING THAT LED TO AN  ONGOING OSHA INVESTIGATION AS WE KNOW.

IS THE MAYOR PUTTING TOO MUCH STOCK IN THIS GATEWAY  SITUATION AS A SOLUTION HERE?

HOW SHOULD WE BE CONSIDERING THIS, HIS VIEW OF IT VERSUS  OUR VIEW OF IT?

WHAT IS YOUR VIEW OF IT?

>> Lan: I THINK IN TERMS OF MY VIEW, IT IS JUST  SOMETHING TO ADDRESS ONE ISSUE.

I THINK THAT THE NEED FOR COMMUNITY IS SO PROFOUND AND  WE ARE DEFINITELY SEEING THIS AT THE CENTER FOR CIVIC  POLICY AT THE TABLE FOR A LOT OF OUR SAFE CITIES AND  OUR NONPROFITS.

WE EXIST BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE  FALLING THROUGH THE GAPS THAT GOVERNMENT IS ALLOWING.

AND SO TO ADDRESS INEQUITIES OR NONPROFITS HAVE TO EXIST UNTIL OUR GOVERNMENT CAN PROVIDE SERVICES FOR OUR COMMUNITY IN THE MOST EQUITABLE MANNER TO ADDRESS ALL OF OUR COMMUNITY'S NEEDS.

UNTIL THOSE THINGS  REALLY GET ADDRESSED THAT IS WHY WE EXIST.

WE ARE SEEING AS NONPROFITS WHETHER IT IS MEMBER BASED  SERVICES OR THROUGH POLICY, WE ARE HAVING TO STILL  ADDRESS THE NEEDS OF OUR COMMUNITY WHETHER THAT IS  DIRECT SERVICERS OR, AGAIN, THROUGH POLICY CHANGE AND  SHOWING AND HIGHLIGHTING THESE GAPS THAT CONTINUE.

SO I THINK, YOU KNOW, IT IS ONE AVENUE TO ADDRESS THE  NEED BUT WE ARE SEEING THAT THE NEED CONTINUES TO GROW  AND WE HAVE TO FIND A SOLUTION WHERE WE CAN DO  BOTH AT THE SAME TIME.

>> Gene: SERGE, PIVOT HERE,  EARLY NEXT MONTH THE COUNCIL IS GOING TO DECIDE WHETHER  TO APPROVE A ZONING CHANGE TO ACCOMMODATE MORE  AFFORDABLE HOUSING.

SO FAR COUNCIL HAS NOT  REALLY BEEN ON BOARD WITH A LOT OF THINGS WHEN IT COMES  TO PROTECTING TENANTS AND THINGS.

YOU KNOW THAT.

FOLLOWING THIS.

IS BUILDING UP INSTEAD OF OUT THE RIGHT PHILOSOPHY FOR  ALBUQUERQUE?

IS THAT WHERE WE SHOULD BE  HEADED?

>> Serge: I THINK SO.

I THINK DENSITY IS WELL UNDERSTOOD AND A PROVEN  RESPONSE TO LACK OF HOUSING AND LACK OF MORE LAND TO  BUILD IT ON, RIGHT?

WE REALLY NEED TO COME TO  GRIPS WITH THE FACT THAT AS THE CITY IS GROWING IT HAS  TO CHANGE AND I THINK DENSITY ALLOWS FOR MORE  PEOPLE TO LIVE IN THE SAME AMOUNT OF SPACE BUT ALSO  ALLOWS US TO CONCENTRATE SERVICES, ACCESS TO  TRANSPORTATION AND WHATNOT IN A WAY THAT WE HAVE SEEN  IT AROUND THE WORLD.

ALBUQUERQUE IS GROWING UP  AND IT IS GREAT IN MANY WAYS.

SOME PEOPLE WILL SAY, OH, I REMEMBER BACK WHEN AND THAT -- THERE IS NOTHING  WRONG WITH THOSE MEMORIES BUT WE CAN'T LET THAT STAND  IN THE WAY OF SAYING, IT IS TIME TO CHANGE AND DENSITY  REALLY IS A GREAT WAY TO DO THAT.

I THINK IT IS SOMETHING THAT HE NEED MORE OF AND SHOULD  HAVE BEEN THINKING ABOUT SOONER BUT THE DESERT SEEMS  ENDLESS, I GET THAT, BUT THE CITY WILL BE MORE VIBRANT,  WE'LL HAVE MORE ABILITY TO HOUSE MORE PEOPLE AND MORE  AFFORDABLY IF WE HAVE A DIFFERENT VISION OF WHAT THE  CITY WILL LOOK LIKE.

>> Gene: GO AHEAD,  COUNCILOR.

>> Lan: I WANT TO THINK  THROUGH, MY FORMER COUNCIL DISTRICT AND BEING ABLE TO  SERVE DISTRICT 1, THE WESTSIDE, AND SEEING THROUGH  OUR WORK THROUGH THE CENTER OF CIVIC POLICY ON  REDISTRICTING WE SAW THAT A QUARTER OF THE CITY COUNCIL  ON THE WESTSIDE HAD TO SHED POPULATION, THAT IS HOW FAST  THE WEST SIDE WAS GROWING.

AND SO I THINK WE HAVE TO  THINK THROUGH BOTH THINGS.

I MEAN TRULY IF WE THINK  ABOUT AS THE MAYOR IS ALWAYS TALKING ABOUT, ONE  ALBUQUERQUE, WE HAVE TO TREAT IT AS ONE ALBUQUERQUE.

WE HAVE TO THINK OF BOTH THE GROWTH AND WHAT WE ARE  SEEING ALREADY IN TRENDS AND THROUGH THE CENSUS OF 10  YEARS.

WE SAW THE MOST POPULATION  LOSS WITHIN DISTRICTS 8 AND DISTRICT 6 SO WHAT CAN WE DO  TO ADDRESS BOTH?

CAN WE BOTH GROW UPWARD AND  WE ARE ALREADY SEEING GROWTH OUTWARD AND EVEN PARTS OF MY  OLD COUNCIL DISTRICT, IT PREDATES THE CITY AND YET  THEY JUST GOT BASIC INFRASTRUCTURE LIKE ACCESS  TO CLEAN WATER.

SO, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO ADDRESS IT  AS A ONE ALBUQUERQUE ISSUE IN THINKING HOW DO WE DO  BOTH?

>> Gene: THAT IS A KEY  POINT.

IT IS HARD TO PREDICT  COUNCIL, LOOKING AT CITY COUNCIL, WHAT THEY ARE GOING  TO DO.

BUT RECENT PAST THERE IS A  STORY, THEY ARE NOT INCLINED TO BE HELPING, YOU KNOW --  IN MARCH COUNCIL VOTED IN FAVOR OF LANDLORDS AND THEY  STRUCK DOWN THAT ORDINANCE THAT WOULD HAVE FORCED THEM  TO DISCLOSE FEES.

LAST SUMMER YOU MIGHT  REMEMBER THEY VOTED TO BAN SECTION 8 DISCRIMINATION TO  HELP THOSE THAT RECEIVE FEDERAL FINANCIAL AID.

THIS IDEA OF BUILDING UP, IS COUNCIL READY TO HEAR THAT  MESSAGE?

>> Tom: WHAT YOU'RE SEEING  IS THEIR RESPONSE TO ISSUES THAT HAVE REALLY NEVER BEEN  BEFORE COUNCIL THAT ARE OF SUCH SIGNIFICANCE AND  IMPORTANCE.

HAVING BEEN A LANDLORD, YOU  KNOW, I WAS SENSITIVE TO THE ISSUE INVOLVING INCOME  DISCRIMINATION AND I CERTAINLY HAD RESIDENTS THAT  HAD PUBLIC VOUCHERS AND SECTION 8, THAT WAS GREAT,  THEY WERE GOOD FOLKS.

BUT I THINK THERE ARE  OCCASIONS WHERE IT IS OKAY TO DISCRIMINATE AGAINST  INCOME.

YOU DON'T WANT A CRIMINAL  THAT IS RUNNING A CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE AND PAYING RENT  THROUGH THE PROFITS OF THAT CRIMINAL ENTERPRISE.

AND WHERE WE ARE NOW WITH INCOME, THE PUBLIC VOUCHERS  SIMPLY AREN'T COMPETITIVE ENOUGH IN TERMS OF WHAT THE  RENTS ARE, SO THEY ARE DEFICIENT IN TERMS OF WHAT  THEY CAN PAY FOR THE RENTS THAT ARE OUT THERE,  UNFORTUNATELY.

>> Gene: AND ADD TO THAT, GO  TO SERGE OVER HERE ON THIS, THIS 30% INCREASE IN RENTS  OVER THE LAST LITTLE BIT OF TIME.

NOW, THE MAYOR, TO HIS DEFENSE I SHOULD SAY, IT IS  A MARKET THING.

NO MAYOR CAN WAVE A MAGIC  WAND AND BE PART OF THE SOLUTION.

BUT CAN GOVERNMENT BE PART OF THIS SOLUTION?

>> Serge: YES, RIGHT, 100%.

I THINK WE HAVE TO STOP  SAYING, OH, THE MARKET, THE MARKET, THE MARKET.

THE MARKET HAS ABSOLUTELY FAILED US IN THIS RESPECT  BECAUSE HOUSING IS NOT A COMMODITY, RIGHT?

HOUSING IS A GOOD THAT EVERYBODY NEEDS.

IT IS A PUBLIC GOOD.

WE ALL BENEFIT FROM HAVING  IT AND WE NEED TO ADDRESS THAT IN A WAY THAT SAYS, YOU  KNOW, WE ALL BENEFIT FROM PEOPLE BEING STABLY HOUSED.

AND THE CITY, I UNDERSTAND WE DON'T HAVE ENDLESS  RESOURCES, BUT THE RETURN ON INVESTMENT FROM CREATING  MORE HOUSING AND, YOU KNOW, SOCIAL HOUSING, THAT IS NOT  DONE WITH A PROFIT MOTIVE, RIGHT, PUBLIC HOUSING WOULD  BE INCLUDED IN THAT, BUT THERE ARE OTHER WAYS TO DO  THAT, SHOULD NOT BE THIS DIRTY WORD THAT WE TALK  ABOUT.

IT IS REALLY A GREAT  SOLUTION AND A WAY TO EASE SOME OF THE PRESSURES ON THE  MARKET AND PROVIDE FOR SOME OF THE PEOPLE WHO HAVE THE  HARDEST TIME ACCESSING THE MARKET.

THAT SAID, YOU KNOW, WE START THAT TODAY AND THE  FIRST BUILDINGS WILL BE READY WHO KNOWS HOW FAR IF  THE FUTURE.

IT IS NOT AN IMMEDIATE  SOLUTION BUT A LONG-TERM VISION THAT I THINK THIS AND  OTHER CITIES NEED TO START SAYING, WE CAN DO THIS, WE  CAN START THIS.

>> Gene: 20 QUICK SECONDS,  COUNCILOR, IF YOU COULD.

IS THERE A DANGER FOR  HISTORIC NEIGHBORHOODS HERE THIS RUSH TO BUILD MORE  HOUSING?

YOU REPRESENTED A DISTRICT  THAT HAD HISTORIC PARTS OF THE CITY.

IS THAT A DANGER?

>> Lan: I THINK THAT WHAT HE  HAVE TO THINK THROUGH WHAT IT LOOKS LIKE RIGHT NOW FOR  OUR COMMUNITIES AND HISTORICALLY AND THINK  THROUGH THE PAST AS WELL.

IF WE NEVER CHANGE, WE WOULD  STILL HAVE REDLINING, WHICH WE STILL TECHNICALLY DO.

WE HAVE COVENANTS THAT STILL PROHIBIT ASIAN AMERICANS,  PACIFIC ISLANDERS FROM LIVING ON THE PROPERTY AND  THE LANGUAGE SAYS IT IN ITSELF UNLESS YOU'RE AN  INDENTURED SERVANT.

WE STILL HAVE TROUBLING  LANGUAGES IN NEIGHBORHOOD COVENANTS THAT IF THEY ARE  NOT READY TO CHANGE, YOU KNOW, WE HAVE TO APPLY  GOVERNMENT PRESSURE.

AND I THINK SAYING THAT IF  ALL MEN WERE ANGELS THEN GOVERNMENT WOULDN'T BE  NECESSARY.

SO, I THINK THAT WE HAVE TO  THINK AND ADAPT THROUGH THAT AND REALLY LOOK AT WHAT THE  NEED IS FOR OR COMMUNITIES NOW WHILE TRYING TO RESPECT  OUR HISTORY.

SO, I THINK WE'LL HAVE TO FIND A WAY TO DO BOTH BUT STILL INCLUDE ALL OUR COMMUNITIES, NOT JUST THOSE THAT PARTICIPATE IN LIKE NEIGHBORHOOD ASSOCIATIONS BUT THINK THROUGH WHO IS BEING LEFT OUT OF THE CONVERSATION.

>> Gene: THANKS TO THE LINE OPINION PANEL.

MEET BACK HERE AT THE TABLE IN ABOUT 20 MINUTES TO REACT TO MORE OF LOU'S INTERVIEW WITH MAYOR KELLER AND HOW HE SEES THE STATE OF PUBLIC SAFETY AND POLICING HERE IN THE CITY.

>> Keller: WE ARE GOING TO TRY SOMETHING OUT AND IT IS RELATIVELY BOLD.

WE HAVE NOT HEARD OF IT IN OTHER AREAS.

WE ARE BASICALLY  TRIANGULATING THE FEDERAL THOUSAND FEET FROM A SCHOOL RULE.

AND SO WHAT BASICALLY IS THE  CASE, IS THAT DOWNTOWN ALBUQUERQUE, IF YOU MAP THIS  OUT, ALL OF DOWNTOWN ACTUALLY SHOULD BE A GUN-FREE ZONE UNDER FEDERAL LAW ALREADY.

ALL WE ARE GOING TO DO IS START ENFORCING THAT WHENEVER THERE IS A CRIME.

>> Gene: HERE IS A LITTLE PALLET CLEANSER.

MICHELLE OTERO WAS A CITY OF ALBUQUERQUE POET LAUREATE FROM 2018 THROUGH 2020.

IN 2021 HER DEBUT POETRY COLLECTION WAS PUBLISHED,  BOSQUE, THAT WAS CALLED.

AND THIS YEAR SHE RELEASED  VESSELS, A MEMOIR OF BORDERS.

THIS WEEK SHE AND OUR LAND'S  LAURA PASKUS TALK ABOUT WRITING AND ABOUT THE  CHALLENGES AND REWARDS OF EXPLORING FAMILY, TRAUMA AND  HISTORY.

>> Laura: HI, MICHELLE.

>> Otero: HEY, LAURA.

>> Laura: THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT WRITING.

SO YOU ARE SO WELL-KNOWN FOR YOUR POETRY, AND I LOVE YOUR COLLECTION OF POEMS ABOUT THE BOSQUE, BUT YOU JUST PUBLISHED A MEMOIR.

"VESSELS: A MEMOIR OF  BORDERS."

I'D LOVE TO HEAR HOW THE  PROCESS OF WRITING PROSE VERSUS POETRY IS DIFFERENT, OR IS THE SAME FOR YOU.

>> Otero: THEY ALMOST FEEL LIKE DIFFERENT DIALECTS OR ACCENTS.

LIKE, THEY ALMOST FEEL LIKE A FORM OF CODE SWITCHING.

SO, YOU KNOW, I SPEAK DIFFERENTLY HERE THAN I  WOULD IF I'M, YOU KNOW, THAN I WOULD IF I'M WITH MY PARENTS, OR THAN I WOULD SPEAK IF I'M WITH MY FRIENDS  IN OAXACA, OR SOMETIMES EVEN IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD WHEN I  HAVE MY MOM VOICE.

AND IT'S FUNNY, BECAUSE WHEN  I FIRST CAME BACK TO NEW MEXICO IN 2006, HAVING  WRITTEN ALREADY, I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE THOUGHT OF ME  AS A POET EVEN THOUGH I DON'T KNOW THAT UP TO THAT  POINT I HAD EVER WRITTEN A POEM ON PURPOSE.

BUT I READ A LOT OF POETRY AND I APPRECIATED POETRY,  AND I THINK THERE WAS A WAY THAT IT SHOWED UP IN MY  PROSE.

SO I THINK OF POETRY AS  BEING -- IT JUST REQUIRES MORE DISCIPLINE.

THERE ARE MORE CONSIDERATIONS, I GUESS I'LL  SAY.

LIKE VALERIE MARTINEZ TALKS  ABOUT HOW YOU JUST HAVE TO CONSIDER SO MUCH MORE,  BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S THE LINE  BREAK, YOUR UNIT OF MEASUREMENT IS SMALLER.

IT'S A SYLLABLE RATHER THAN A WORD OR A SENTENCE.

THERE'S HOW IT LOOKS ON THE PAGE.

THERE'S LIKE KIND OF STRIPPING AWAY AND STRIPPING  AWAY UNTIL -- YOU KNOW, IT'S MORE DENSE, I THINK, THAN  PROSE.

SO NOW I KIND OF LIKE THAT  I'M ABLE TO GO BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN THE TWO, AND  I'M ALSO WRITING SOME SHORT STORIES, WHICH IS FUN,  BECAUSE I THINK I'M A LITTLE TIRED OF WRITING ABOUT  MYSELF.

I'M PRETTY FUNNY, BUT  THERE'S A LOT IN THIS BOOK THAT'S HARD TO READ.

AND IT ALL ENDS WELL.

LIKE, THERE'S A HAPPY  ENDING.

I'M HAPPY.

IT'S A MEMOIR, SO YOU KNOW THAT I TURNED OUT OKAY.

AND SO I'M ALSO JUST DISCOVERING A LOVE FOR JUST  BEING ABLE TO EXPAND, LIKE TO STRETCH OUT AND TO WRITE  ABOUT THINGS THAT AREN'T NECESSARILY ABOUT MY OWN  LIFE.

>> Laura: SO YOU ARE VERY  FUNNY, BUT THERE'S A LOT OF REALLY HARD STUFF IN THIS  MEMOIR AND HARD THINGS ABOUT PEOPLE WHO ARE CLOSE TO YOU.

AND I THINK A LOT OF WRITERS, WE WANT TO KEEP  THINGS FROM OUR FAMILY, KEEP THINGS EVEN FROM, LIKE, OUR  CLOSEST LOVED ONES, BUT WE WANT TO OR NEED TO WRITE  ABOUT THEM, AND YOU DID THAT IN THIS BOOK.

AND I WOULD LOVE TO KNOW HOW YOU WERE ABLE TO DO THAT.

>> Otero: YEAH, THERE WERE HARD THINGS IN THE BOOK.

SOME OF THIS BOOK CAME OUT IN A CHAT BOOK, SO A SHORTER  COLLECTION CALLED "MALINCHE'S DAUGHTER" IN  2006, AND WHEN THAT CAME OUT, I SO DESPERATELY NEEDED  TO WRITE THE STORY AND SO WANTED IT TO COME OUT AND  DIDN'T WANT TO BE TOLD THAT I SHOULDN'T OR COULDN'T, AND  SO I TRIED IN VERY CLUMSY WAYS TO TALK TO MY FAMILY,  AND THAT DIDN'T GO WELL.

SO FINALLY IT CAME OUT AND  THEN IT WAS JUST LIKE THIS BOMB WENT OFF.

SO KNOWING THAT THIS BOOK WOULD PICK UP WHERE THAT  LEFT OFF, LIKE KIND OF INCORPORATE IT AND HAVE A  LONGER ARC, I FOR MANY YEARS WOULD LEAVE THIS PROJECT.

I WROTE A WHOLE POETRY COLLECTION.

YOU KNOW, I DID A LOT OF THINGS IN THE INTERIM.

BUT THIS BOOK WAS ALWAYS KIND OF THERE, YOU KNOW,  WAKING ME UP AT NIGHT, OR NAGGING ME, OR SOMETIMES  SAYING, LIKE, HEY, REMEMBER ME?

SO I JUST GOT SOME REALLY GOOD COACHING FROM A DEAR  FRIEND AND COLLEAGUE NAMED JOE WESTON, WHO DOES THIS  PRACTICE CALLED RESPECTFUL CONFRONTATION, AND HE'S  LIKE, OKAY, HERE'S WHAT YOU DO.

JUST PRINT OUT A DRAFT, HAVE A CONVERSATION WITH EACH  MEMBER OF YOUR FAMILY, SEND THEM THE DRAFT, AND THEN ASK  THEM TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT IT, WHICH FELT VERY SIMPLE.

IT WASN'T EASY, BUT THAT'S REALLY WHAT HAPPENED.

I THOUGHT ABOUT, LIKE, IF I WERE ON THE OTHER END, HOW  WOULD I WANT TO ENGAGE WITH THIS MATERIAL?

WHAT WOULD I WANT TO DO?

HOW WOULD I WANT TO BE CARED  FOR AND INVITED INTO THE PROCESS?

AND THEN I TRIED TO BE REALLY CLEAR ABOUT WHAT I  WANTED BACK.

SO NOT -- YOU KNOW, IT'S  GOING TO BE HARD FOR ME TO HEAR, CAN YOU TAKE THIS OUT,  OR CAN YOU CHANGE THAT.

BUT IF YOU CAN TELL ME YOUR EXPERIENCE OF READING IT AND  THE IMPACT THAT IT HAD ON YOU, THEN WE'RE FUNCTIONS OR  WE'RE COMMUNICATING ON A DEEPER LEVEL, AND I'M BETTER  ABLE TO RECEIVE IT.

AND REALLY, THAT'S WHAT I  DID WITH EACH OF MY SIBLINGS, WITH MY PARENTS.

YEAH, SO I DON'T KNOW THAT -- ACTUALLY, I CAN'T SPEAK  FOR EVERYONE.

I DON'T KNOW THAT ANYONE IS  THRILLED.

LIKE, YEAH, MICHELLE WROTE A  BOOK ABOUT REALLY HARD THINGS.

AND IT FEELS REALLY GOOD TO JUST NOT BE SITTING ON A  PILE OF SECRETS, OR TO BE ABLE TO HAVE A BOOK RELEASE  AND HAVE MY MOTHER THERE AND TO HAVE THE NEXT GENERATION  OF MY FAMILY.

I HAD A NEPHEW AND HIS  FAMILY ATTEND.

AND TO THINK ABOUT  INHERITANCE AND ALSO WHAT I'M PASSING ON, AND MAYBE IF  I CAN MAKE THE LOAD A LITTLE LIGHTER FOR THE NEXT  GENERATION, THEN THAT'S -- I MEAN, WHAT A HUGE GIFT.

>> Laura: YEAH, THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THAT.

I LOVE THE WHOLE IDEA OF RESPECTFUL CONFRONTATION AND  HOW WE CAN DO THAT, AND YOUR BOOK RELEASE, WHICH I  ATTENDED IN ALBUQUERQUE, WAS SUCH A BEAUTIFUL AND JOYOUS  CELEBRATION.

AND IT REALLY WAS.

YOU KNOW, TO SEE YOUR FAMILY THERE AND TO SEE YOU LIFTED  UP FOR ALL THAT YOU DO AND ALL YOU'VE WRITTEN WAS A  BEAUTIFUL THING TO EXPERIENCE.

SO THANK YOU FOR TALKING ABOUT THAT.

>> Otero: THANK YOU.

>> Laura: AS WE'RE TALKING,  THIS IS A MEMOIR ROOTED IN YOUR OWN EXPERIENCES.

YOU ALSO CREATE COMPOSITE CHARACTERS, AND YOU EXPLORE  AZTEC GODS AND GODDESSES AS PART OF THAT.

HOW DOES ALL OF THAT HELP TELL A MORE COMPLETE OR A  WHOLE STORY?

>> Otero: SO I THINK MY DOORWAY INTO THESE FIGURES AND, LIKE, AZTEC OR MEXICA MYTHOLOGY WAS THROUGH THIS FIGURE OF LA MALINCHE.

SHE WAS THE -- SHE BECAME THE INTERPRETER FOR THE SPANIARDS IN THE 1500s WHEN THEY INVADED WHAT IS NOW MEXICO.

SO AT THE TIME, SHE SPOKE  NAHUATL, AND THEN SHE SPOKE ANOTHER MAYAN LANGUAGE, AND  WAS ABLE TO INTERPRET -- SHE SPOKE NAHUATL AND ANOTHER  MAYAN LANGUAGE AND WAS ABLE TO INTERPRET BETWEEN THOSE  TWO, BUT SHE LEARNED SPANISH AND THEN JUST BECAME THE  DIRECT INTERPRETER.

SO I THINK SHE GETS A REALLY  BAD RAP BECAUSE A LOT OF PEOPLE LOOK AT HER AS A  TRAITOR.

HERE'S AN INDIGENOUS WOMAN  WHO HELPED THE SPANIARDS.

SYMBOLICALLY, SHE'S ALSO THE  MOTHER OF MESTIZAJE, SO THE MOTHER OF THIS GROUP OF  PEOPLE, OF WHICH I'M A PART, A MIX OF SPANISH AND  INDIGENOUS ANCESTRY.

SO I FEEL A REAL -- I DON'T  KNOW IF WE'RE BLOOD RELATED.

I THINK I WRITE THAT IN THE  INTRODUCTION.

BUT I FEEL A REAL, JUST A  REAL CONNECTION TO HER.

AND THEN I STARTED LOOKING  BACK, WHEN I STARTED WRITING THIS BOOK, AND THEN BEFORE  WHEN I STARTED WRITING "MALINCHE'S DAUGHTER," I  KEPT WANTING TO GO BACK IN TIME TO FIND A TIME WHEN  WOMEN WEREN'T HARMED, AND I THOUGHT, WELL, MAYBE IT'S IN  AZTEC MYTHOLOGY, MAYBE IT'S IN SOME OF THESE OTHER  THINGS.

AND THEN I FOUND THE STORY  OF COYOLXAUHQUI, THE MOON GODDESS, AND I THOUGHT, OH,  A MOON GODDESS, THAT'S SO BEAUTIFUL.

AND THEN HER STORY SO VIOLENT.

HER BROTHER, THE GOD OF WAR, DECAPITATES HER AND THROWS  HER HEAD INTO THE SKY, AND THAT'S HOW SHE BECOMES THE  MOON.

AND SO I THINK THE LINK BACK  TO THAT WAS THINKING ABOUT THIS IDEA OF BROKENNESS, AND  EVEN IF THAT'S OUR INHERITANCE, LIKE, WHAT'S  OUR WORK IN THIS LIFE.

AND SO GLORIA ANZALDÚA,  FORTUNATELY, WROTE THIS REALLY AMAZING PIECE ABOUT  THE COYOLXAUHQUI IMPERATIVE AND HOW OUR JOB IN THIS LIFE  IS TO -- YOU KNOW, EVEN IF WE COME IN BROKEN OR WE'RE  BROKEN ALONG THE WAY, OUR WORK IS TO PUT OURSELVES  BACK TOGETHER.

SO THAT REALLY, AGAIN MUCH  LIKE WITH LA MALINCHE, I JUST REALLY FELT A  CONNECTION TO COYOLXAUHQUI AND THAT IDEA THAT THAT  BROKENNESS DOESN'T HAVE TO BE A LIFE SENTENCE, THAT  THERE IS A WAY TO, LIKE, REMEMBER, AND IT'S IN  WRITING OUR MEMORIES THAT WE, LIKE, PUT OURSELVES BACK  TOGETHER.

>> Laura: THANK YOU,  MICHELLE.

THANKS FOR TALKING WITH ME,  AND THANK YOU FOR ALL THE WORK AND THE WRITING THAT  YOU DO.

>> Otero: YOU'RE WELCOME.

THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> Gene: THANK YOU, LAURA.

YOU CAN CATCH PART TWO OF THEIR CONVERSATION NEXT MONTH ON THE SHOW.

NOW WE TURN OUR ATTENTION  BACK TO MAYOR TIM KELLER AND HIS APPROACH TO PUBLIC SAFETY IN ALBUQUERQUE.

HERE'S SENIOR PRODUCER LOU DIVIZIO.

>> Lou: IN YOUR SPEECH, YOU SAID THAT WE NEED TO ADDRESS GUN VIOLENCE AND THAT WE CAN'T, AS YOU JUST SAID, WAIT FOR THE STATE OR THE FEDS TO TAKE ACTION, THAT THE CITY NEEDS TO WORK TO CREATE SOME REASONABLE SOLUTIONS.

WHAT SPECIFICS DO YOU HAVE IN MIND THERE?

>> Keller: SO WE'RE GOING TO TRY SOMETHING OUT, AND IT'S RELATIVELY BOLD.

WE HAVE NOT HEARD OF IT IN  OTHER AREAS.

BUT WE'RE BASICALLY TRIANGULATING THE FEDERAL THOUSAND FEET FROM A SCHOOL RULE.

SO WHAT BASICALLY IS THE CASE IS THAT DOWNTOWN ALBUQUERQUE, IF YOU MAP THIS OUT, ALL OF DOWNTOWN ACTUALLY SHOULD BE A  GUN-FREE ZONE UNDER FEDERAL LAW ALREADY.

ALL WE'RE GOING TO DO IS START ENFORCING THAT  WHENEVER THERE'S A CRIME.

SO IF YOU'RE BRANDISHING A  FIREARM, YOU KNOW, OUTSIDE, YOU'RE DRIVING AROUND  SHOOTING IT AND SO FORTH, NOW WE HAVE ALMOST NO  OPTIONS.

I MEAN, THESE ARE LIKE  MISDEMEANOR CHARGES, IF THAT RIGHT NOW, IF NO ONE IS  HURT.

BUT NOW WE'LL SAY, WE'RE  GOING TO TAKE YOU FEDERAL, BECAUSE YOU'RE VIOLATING THE  FEDERAL BAN ON GUNS NEAR A SCHOOL.

AND THAT IS A VERY SERIOUS CHARGE AND HANDLED IN THE  FEDERAL COURT SYSTEM, WHICH HAS A LOT MORE STAYING  POWER.

SO WE'RE GOING TO TEST THIS  OUT DOWNTOWN AND WE'RE GOING TO SEE HOW IT WORKS.

WE'RE GOING TO START SLOW, BUT IT LITERALLY MIGHT  CHANGE THE ENTIRE FEEL OF DOWNTOWN.

NOW, WE ALSO SEE A POTENTIAL OF THIS IN OTHER AREAS, LIKE  UPTOWN AND AROUND THE MALLS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, IT'S ALL  PENDING RESOURCES AND SO FORTH.

AND OUR U.S. ATTORNEY HAS BEEN AMAZING IN THAT OFFICE,  IN TERMS OF THEIR WILLINGNESS TO LOOK AT THIS  CONCEPT.

BUT IN A STATE LIKE NEW  MEXICO, WHERE WE HAVE LOCAL PREEMPTION, WHERE WE CAN'T  HAVE OUR OWN GUN LAWS, THIS IS JUST ABOUT BASICALLY  ENFORCING A FEDERAL LAW THAT EXISTS.

BUT THAT IS A HUGE DEAL, AND SO WE'RE GOING TO TEST THAT  OUT.

AND I THINK IT'S GOING TO  MAKE DOWNTOWN A LOT SAFER.

AND IT'S SOMETHING THAT I  THINK, LIKE OUR COMMUNITY SAFETY DEPARTMENT, IF IT  WORKS, YOU'RE GOING TO SEE A LOT OF OTHER CITIES DOING  IT.

>> Lou: NOW, LET'S TALK  ABOUT THE ONGOING REFORM  EFFORT AT APD.

IN 2014, THE JUSTICE  DEPARTMENT CAME IN TO ADDRESS A LONGSTANDING  PRACTICE OF UNCONSTITUTIONAL USE OF FORCE AND A CULTURE  WITHIN APD THAT HELPED CONTINUE THAT.

WHAT FROM YOUR PERSPECTIVE IS DIFFERENT BETWEEN THEN  AND NOW WHEN IT COMES TO CONSTITUTIONAL POLICING  SPECIFICALLY?

>> Keller: YOU KNOW, I  THINK WE WENT THROUGH A REAL JOURNEY ON THIS AND I THINK  IT'S AN EXAMPLE, A LITTLE BIT, ABOUT WHAT I SHARED  EARLIER IN TERMS OF US TRYING TO MAKE SURE THAT AT  A MINIMUM, WE LISTEN, WE LEARN, AND WE ACT, AND WE  CYCLE THROUGH THAT.

SO WHEN I FIRST CAME IN, YOU  KNOW, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY IN THE PAST THAT REFORM  WAS SORT OF TACIT AND IT WAS ABOUT CHECKING BOXES.

SO I CAME IN AND SAID, WE'RE GOING TO DO EXACTLY WHAT THE  MONITOR WANTS US TO DO.

THAT DID NOT WORK, EITHER.

AND SO THAT WAS MY LESSON, WHERE THAT IN A SENSE  BACKFIRED ON A NUMBER OF FRONTS.

WE WERE GETTING ADVICE THAT WAS NOT GOOD FOR  ALBUQUERQUE.

WE WERE GETTING A HODGEPODGE  OF BEST PRACTICES THAT, AGAIN, HAD LIKE NOTHING TO  DO WITH OUR CITY.

AND WE WERE ALSO GETTING  SOME PRACTICES THAT JUST WERE NOT APPROPRIATE, LIKE  WHAT HAPPENED WITH SORT OF TASER VS. FIREARMS.

SO ABOUT TWO YEARS AGO, WE SAID WE'RE GOING TO TRY IT  AGAIN A DIFFERENT WAY.

WE'RE GOING TO BE COMMITTED  TO REFORM AND WE'RE GOING TO GET THIS DONE, BUT WE ARE  DOING IT OUR WAY.

WE ARE CREATING EVERY POLICY  WITH INPUT FROM BEST PRACTICES, BUT WE'RE NOT  JUST SAYING YES TO EVERYTHING FROM SOME OTHER  CITY.

AND THAT HAS MADE ALL THE  DIFFERENCE IN THE WORLD, BECAUSE WE INTERNALIZE IT,  WE OWN IT.

IT'S NOT BEING DONE TO US,  IT'S SOMETHING WE'RE VOLUNTARILY DOING.

WHEN YOU PAIR THAT WITH THE OFFICE OF THE SUPERINTENDENT  OF REFORM, WHICH IS LIKE OUR INTERNAL MONITOR, BASICALLY,  WE'VE SET UP A SITUATION WHERE WE WRITE POLICIES, WE  CHANGE POLICIES, WE ADAPT, AND THEN WE HOLD OURSELVES  ACCOUNTABLE THROUGH THAT INDEPENDENT OFFICE.

AND THAT HAS ENABLED US TO GET 92 PERCENT COMPLIANT.

WE MADE MORE PROGRESS IN THE LAST TWO YEARS THAN WE DID  IN THE LAST SIX COMBINED.

SO WE'RE ACTUALLY IN A VERY  GOOD PLACE.

WE'RE IN THE HOME STRETCH ON  THIS.

>> Lou: NOW, LAST YEAR,  DESPITE THAT, POLICE DID SHOOT 18 PEOPLE IN THE CITY,  AND THAT IS A RECORD FOR A SINGLE YEAR.

HOW DO YOU SQUARE THAT FIGURE WITH THE NINE YEARS,  THE $10 MILLION SPENT, AND WHAT YOU JUST EXPLAINED  UNDER THE CONSENT DECREE?

WHAT DO TAXPAYERS HAVE FOR  THAT MONEY SPENT AND THE TIME THAT WE'VE INVESTED IN  THIS AS A CITY?

>> Keller: WELL, I THINK  THE MONEY INVESTMENT QUESTION IS DEBATABLE.

I WOULD AGREE WITH YOU.

I MEAN, PART OF THE REASON  WHY WE HAVE TO DO OUR OWN WORK NOW IS BECAUSE WE'VE  HAD A HIT AND MISS SITUATION WITH WHAT ALL THESE  CONSULTANTS HAVE BEEN TELLING US, AND THAT'S WHY  YOU ALSO SEE US CUTTING THE AMOUNT OF MONEY WE'RE  SPENDING ON IT.

WE WANT TO SPEND MONEY ON,  YOU KNOW, FOLKS LIKE CIVILIANS WHO REVIEW VIDEO  TO HOLD OUR OFFICERS ACCOUNTABLE.

SO WHEN IT COMES TO THESE SHOOTINGS, THERE'S A COUPLE  OF THINGS.

THOSE THINGS AREN'T ACTUALLY  NECESSARILY DIRECTLY RELATED.

IF CRIME IS GOING UP, OR IF DRUG TRAFFICKING IS GOING UP  AND THINGS LIKE THIS, YOU CAN SEE AN INCREASE IN  SHOOTING REGARDLESS.

NOW, THEY ALSO COULD BE  RELATED, SO I UNDERSTAND THAT, BUT I THINK THERE'S A  COUPLE OF THINGS.

ONE IS, WE FIXED THIS NOTION  OF, LIKE, TASER VS. A FIREARM.

WE FIXED THAT.

THAT WAS ACTUALLY A POLICY  WE GOT FROM THE DOJ, AND I THINK THAT COST PEOPLE  LIVES.

SO THAT'S ONE THING WHERE I  THINK AT LEAST WE DID, HOPEFULLY IN THE END, THE  RIGHT THING.

THE SECOND THING IS, WHEN  THERE ARE INAPPROPRIATE USES OF FORCE, WE'RE HOLDING  OURSELVES ACCOUNTABLE.

THAT'S WHAT THE DOJ IS ALL  ABOUT.

AND SO I THINK ON THAT MARK,  WHICH IS WHAT THE COMPLIANCE AND MONITORING IS ABOUT,  WE'RE DOING MUCH BETTER.

>> Lou: WHAT WOULD YOU TELL  TO A MAYOR IN A CITY THAT IS  ENTERING INTO ONE OF THESE SIMILAR CONSENT DECREES?

IS IT EFFECTIVE IN THE LONG-TERM IF YOU CAN GET  YOUR HANDS ON IT AND KIND OF SCULPT IT, LIKE YOU SAID, TO  MAKE IT FIT YOUR OWN CITY?

>> Keller: YOU KNOW, THAT'S  A REALLY GOOD QUESTION.

ACTUALLY, MAYORS ASK ME THAT  QUITE A BIT, AND I ALWAYS TELL THEM, FOR OUR CITY, IT  HAD TO HAPPEN AND I SUPPORTED IT BECAUSE OF  WHERE WE WERE BEFORE.

AND IT WILL BE A REASON TO  ESSENTIALLY FORCE YOU TO DO THE THINGS THAT YOUR  DEPARTMENT SHOULD HAVE BEEN DOING IN THE FIRST PLACE.

SO IF YOU CAN'T GET IT DONE WITHOUT THE CONSENT DECREE,  LIKE YOU BETTER AGREE TO THAT, BECAUSE THAT'S THE  ONLY WAY TO GET IT DONE.

AND IT CAN BE TOUGH BECAUSE  OF THE CULTURE AND ALL OF THESE DIFFERENT PRACTICES  THAT DEVELOP.

BUT I DO SAY THIS.

I SAY WHAT WE LEARNED.

I SAY, YOU NEED TO DO IT  YOUR WAY.

SO LEARN FROM OTHER CITIES,  BUT YOU SHOULDN'T HAVE A SINGLE POLICY THAT'S LIKE,  WELL, WE GOT THAT FROM DETROIT, OR WE GOT THAT FROM  PORTLAND.

NO, IT'S YOUR POLICY AND YOU  HAVE TO OWN THAT POLICY.

AND THAT WAS THE BIG SHIFT  THAT WE MADE.

SO THOSE ARE USUALLY THE TWO  THINGS THAT I TELL THEM.

>> Lou: ALBUQUERQUE DID SEE  A RECORD NUMBER OF HOMICIDES LAST YEAR, 121, AND FOR A  COUPLE OF DECADES THE CITY HAD AVERAGED ABOUT 50 A  YEAR.

WHAT'S DRIVING THE DOUBLING  OF PEOPLE KILLED VIOLENTLY HERE?

>> Keller: YOU KNOW, THERE ARE REALLY THREE THINGS, AND  WE THEM TRAGICALLY COMING TOGETHER ALL THE TIME IN OUR  CITY.

NUMBER ONE IS ADDICTION.

ALMOST EVERY -- I THINK IF YOU ADD UP ALL THESE  TOGETHER, 90% OF THE HOMICIDES INVOLVE THESE  THREE FACTORS.

SO ADDICTION, SOME SORT OF  DRUG INVOLVED, WHETHER SOMEBODY'S ON A DRUG -- IT'S  NOT JUST THAT THEY'RE BUYING OR SELLING A DRUG, IT'S  THEY'RE ACTUALLY DRUG INDUCED.

THE OTHER ASPECT IS DOMESTIC VIOLENCE.

A HUGE PERCENTAGE OF THESE HAPPEN IN THAT SITUATION IN  A HOME, WHICH MAKES THEM VERY HARD TO PREVENT.

AND THEN THE THIRD THING IS A GUN.

LOOK, NONE OF THESE WOULD HAVE BEEN DEADLY -- I MEAN,  MORE OR LESS.

THERE CERTAINLY COULD BE  KNIVES AND THINGS LIKE THIS.

BUT MOST OF THEM WOULD NOT  HAVE TAKEN A LIFE IF THERE WAS NOT A GUN.

SO YOU PUT THOSE THREE THINGS TOGETHER, AND THAT'S  WHY YOU HAVE SUCH A DEADLY HOMICIDE RATE HERE IN  ALBUQUERQUE.

>> Lou: NOW, YOU'VE LET GO  OF THE PLAN FOR 1200 OFFICERS WHEN YOU TOOK  OFFICE IN ALBUQUERQUE.

HOW HAS YOUR THINKING  EVOLVED OVER THE TIME THAT YOU'VE BEEN IN OFFICE INTO  HOW MANY OFFICERS ALBUQUERQUE NEEDS TO BE  SAFE?

>> Keller: YOU KNOW, I  THINK AT FIRST IT WAS BASED ON STUDIES.

THAT'S WHERE WE GOT THIS 1200 NUMBER FROM.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE ALL LIKE STUDIES.

I MEAN, IT'S JUST KIND OF A THING.

AND I THINK SIMILAR TO THE DOJ, I'VE LEARNED THAT, YOU  KNOW, WHAT WE WANT IS A SAFE CITY.

THAT'S WHAT WE WANT.

IT'S NOT ABOUT THE NUMBER OF  OFFICERS.

SO WE'RE NOT HANGING OUR HAT  ON A PARTICULAR NUMBER.

AND ALSO, WHEN THOSE STUDIES  WERE DONE -- THESE ARE ABOUT TEN YEARS OLD NOW --  POLICING WAS DIFFERENT.

THIS WAS BEFORE THE CONSENT  DECREE.

THIS WAS ALSO BEFORE OUR  COMMUNITY SAFETY DEPARTMENT.

AND I THINK, MOST  IMPORTANTLY, IT WAS ALSO BEFORE JUST GENERAL SHORTAGE  OF LAW ENFORCEMENT OFFICERS ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

SO WHAT'S CHANGED IS, BASICALLY, WE HAVE A WAY  THAT WE THINK WE CAN GET TO ADEQUATELY KEEP OUR  COMMUNITY SAFE IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

IT'S A MULTI-PRONGED APPROACH.

SO NUMBER ONE IS, WE ALSO DO RETENTION NOW.

WE HAD -- WE DIDN'T REALLY REALIZE THIS UNTIL WE LOOKED  AT THE NUMBERS, BUT THE BIGGEST PROBLEM WITH THE  RANK AND FILE IN THE DEPARTMENT WAS THAT THERE  WERE SO MANY PEOPLE LEAVING.

LIKE, THAT WAS COSTING US  MORE AT THE BOTTOM LINE THAN A LACK OF RECRUITING,  BECAUSE WE HAD A HUNDRED EVERY YEAR.

WE WERE MEETING OUR RECRUITING GOALS.

YET THE DEPARTMENT WAS BASICALLY FLAT.

IT WAS BECAUSE OF THE RETENTION.

SO NOW WE PAY A LOT MORE ATTENTION TO RETENTION.

WE ALSO PAY MORE ATTENTION TO CADETS.

YOU KNOW, CADETS WERE ALWAYS LEFT OUT.

BECAUSE OF THE UNION COLLECTIVE BARGAINING  AGREEMENTS AND SO FORTH, CADETS WERE ALWAYS LEFT OUT  OF ALL OF THE COMPENSATION DIFFERENT ISSUES THAT WE  IRONED OUT.

WE'VE NOW FIXED THAT.

BUT I THINK MOST IMPORTANTLY ARE THE TWO OTHER FACTORS.

ONE IS CIVILIANIZATION.

WE ARE TRYING TO MAKE SURE  THAT THERE IS NO ONE WITH A BADGE THAT IS SITTING BEHIND  A DESK, UNLESS THEY'RE DOING LIKE INVESTIGATIONS.

BUT WE WANT THEM FIGHTING CRIME.

AND BEFORE, EVEN WITH REFORM, WE HAD A BUNCH OF  OFFICERS REVIEWING, YOU KNOW, VIDEOTAPE AND THINGS  LIKE THIS.

AND THERE'S ALSO BIAS THERE,  TOO.

I MEAN, THERE'S OTHER  REASONS FOR THAT.

BUT WE'RE REALLY  CIVILIANIZING AS MUCH AS WE CAN.

AND THE LAST ONE IS TECHNOLOGY.

YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE TECHNOLOGY WE HAVE  NOW -- WE WERE WAY BEHIND.

WHEN I STARTED THE REAL-TIME  CRIME CENTER, IT WAS NOT REAL TIME.

LIKE LITERALLY, THERE WAS ALMOST NOTHING REAL TIME  ABOUT IT, IT WAS JUST REVIEWING VIDEOTAPE.

SO NOW WE'RE KIND OF CAUGHT UP TO MOST CITIES IN AMERICA  WITH ALL SORTS OF TECHNOLOGY, BUT A LOT OF IT  IS LIKE LICENSE PLATE READERS, THE AUTOMATED SPEED  CAMERAS THAT ARE GIVING SPEEDING TICKETS.

BUT THESE ARE JUST -- THEY'RE SUBSTITUTES FOR  THOUSANDS OF OFFICERS.

I MEAN, THAT'S BASICALLY  WHAT THEY ARE.

BUT THEY'RE MORE EFFECTIVE  AND THEY'RE ALSO A REALITY.

I DON'T THINK THERE'S  ANOTHER WAY TO GET THERE.

SO WE THINK IF WE CONTINUE  TO USE THE RIGHT INVESTMENTS IN CIVILIANS AND IN  TECHNOLOGY, AND THEN WORK ON RETENTION AND RECRUITING  STILL, WE CAN ADEQUATELY KEEP OUR COMMUNITY SAFE.

SO THAT MEANS WE DON'T NEED A MAGIC NUMBER, AND ALSO NOW  AT THIS POINT LIKE A FAIRYTALE NUMBER.

I MEAN, THERE'S NO WAY IN THE NEXT FIVE YEARS ANYONE  IS GETTING TO A 1200 OFFICERS NO MATTER WHAT YOU DO.

AND I DON'T ACTUALLY THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT THING FOR THE CITY.

>> Gene: WELCOME BACK TO OUR LINE OPINION PANELISTS.

LAST YEAR, ALBUQUERQUE SAW  121 HOMICIDES.

THAT'S A RECORD.

AND IT'S MORE THAN DOUBLE THE CITY'S LONGSTANDING  AVERAGE OF ABOUT 50 MURDERS.

NOW, AS YOU JUST SAW, THE  MAYOR POINTED OUT THREE MAIN CONTRIBUTORS IN HIS VIEW.

DRUG ADDICTION, DOMESTIC VIOLENCE, AND EASY ACCESS TO GUNS.

TOM, LET ME START WITH YOU.

IS THAT THE NEXUS OF WHY SO MANY PEOPLE ARE BEING KILLED  HERE?

HAS THE KELLER  ADMINISTRATION DONE ENOUGH TO ADDRESS THE ROOT CAUSES  OF THOSE THREE THINGS?

>> Tom: I THINK HE ENTIRELY  OVERSIMPLIFIED THE ISSUE, BECAUSE ALBUQUERQUE HAS  ALWAYS HAD THOSE ISSUES.

WE'RE THE WEST, SO GUNS,  DRUGS AND DOMESTIC VIOLENCE ARE PART AND PARCEL,  UNFORTUNATELY, FOR THE CITY.

I THINK THE OTHER COMPONENT  THAT REALLY HAS BEEN THE ACCELERANT IS THAT THERE'S A LACK OF GUARDRAILS THAT SORT OF CONTAIN THE IMPULSIVE  VIOLENT BEHAVIOR OUT THERE, BECAUSE THERE'S NO PRESENCE  OF POLICING OUT THERE.

THERE'S NO PRESENCE OF  AUTHORITY.

AND WITHOUT THOSE  GUARDRAILS, YOU KNOW, THE NOTION THAT I CAN DO  SOMETHING AND NOT GET CAUGHT, OR AT LEAST FACE  IMMEDIATE CONSEQUENCES, IS REMOVED.

AND THE CONSEQUENCE THAT WE'RE SEEING IS THE  ABSOLUTE, YOU KNOW, GROSS GROWTH OF HOMICIDES OVER THE  LAST THREE YEARS.

>> Gene: IS IT YOUR  SENSE -- WE JUST HAD A BIG MARCH AT WEST MESA HIGH  SCHOOL LAST SATURDAY.

THERE'S BEEN LOTS OF CALLS  THAT GUN VIOLENCE -- PEOPLE ARE JUST SICK OF IT.

KIDS, TEACHERS, ADMINISTRATORS.

IS THERE SOMETHING BUILDING IN ALBUQUERQUE IN YOUR VIEW  AS AN EX-POLICE OFFICER?

YOU'VE BEEN ON THE STREET,  YOU'VE SEEN PEOPLE SUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES OF THIS.

HAVE WE TURNED A TIDE HERE IN WHAT WE EXPECT IN OUR  CITY?

>> Tom: I DON'T KNOW.

I DON'T KNOW.

I MEAN, GUNS UNFORTUNATELY,  FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE, ARE PART OF THE CULTURE HERE.

AND I'M CERTAINLY NOT EXCUSING THE NEGLIGENT USE  OF FIREARMS AND WHATNOT.

BUT I THINK THERE IS A  DEGREE OF AMPLIFICATION WHERE PEOPLE HAVE AN AVENUE  TO EXPRESS THEMSELVES AND EXPRESS OBJECTION TO THINGS  IN A WAY THAT THEY WEREN'T ABLE TO DO BEFORE, WHETHER  IT'S THROUGH SOCIAL MEDIA OR SOME SORT OF NETWORKING, SO  THAT YOU'RE SEEING MORE OF THESE MASS DEMONSTRATIONS OR  PROTESTS OR WALK-OUTS.

SO I THINK THAT'S REFLECTIVE  OF THAT.

I DON'T KNOW IF WE'VE TURNED  THE CORNER.

I KIND OF MAINTAIN A RATHER  CYNICAL VIEW THAT FOR BETTER OR FOR WORSE, OUR COUNTRY  HAS A SECOND AMENDMENT WHICH AUSTRALIA AND NEW ZEALAND  DON'T HAVE, AND SO THAT ISSUE IS SORT OF ALREADY  GONE, UNLESS THEY'RE GOING TO GO DOWN THE REPEAL OF  CONSTITUTIONAL REVIEW.

>> Gene: IT'S ALL  CONNECTED, ISN'T IT?

IT REALLY IS.

THAT'S INTERESTING THERE.

COUNSELOR SENA, THE MAYOR'S  PLAN TO TURN DOWNTOWN INTO A SCHOOL ADJACENT GUN-FREE  ZONE IS PROBABLY GOING TO RAISE SOME EYEBROWS  CONSIDERING WE HAD AN UNFORTUNATE SHOOTING JUST A  FEW NIGHTS AGO WHERE A WOMAN POPPED OFF A SHOT AT A  BOYFRIEND OR A HUSBAND AND ENDED UP HITTING A VENDOR  DOWNTOWN.

I'M CURIOUS HOW THAT STRUCK  YOU.

YOU'VE DEALT WITH GUN  VIOLENCE, OF COURSE, IN YOUR OWN DISTRICT WHEN YOU WERE  REPRESENTING.

HOW DOES THAT HIT YOU FOR  DOWNTOWN AS AN IDEA?

>> Lan: I MEAN, USING  DOWNTOWN AS A PILOT PROJECT FOR THIS IS INTERESTING.

HOWEVER, THROUGHOUT ALBUQUERQUE WE'RE ALL  FEELING THE IMPACT OF GUN VIOLENCE AND CRIME, AND SO I  THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, HAVING TO SEE IT AT SUCH A SMALL POPULATION OR A PILOT PROGRAM WHEN SO MANY OF OUR COMMUNITIES ARE FEELING THIS, AND FEELING IT IN  DIFFERENT WAYS BECAUSE OF WHERE WE LIVE, I THINK AS HE  WAS SAYING, WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THE ROOT OF THE  CAUSE, AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S SPECIFICALLY  ADDRESSING THE ROOT OF THE CAUSE.

>> Gene: A LOT OF FOLKS WHO COME ON THE SHOW LIKE TO  MAKE THE POINT THAT THE FAMILY STRUCTURE IS PART OF  THE PROBLEM.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE FAMILY  STRUCTURE, THERE'S GOING TO BE THE ISSUES WITH TEENAGERS  IN THE HOME.

IN YOUR VIEW, IS THAT PART  OF IT, AS WELL?

>> Lan: I DON'T THINK SO.

I THINK MORE SO ABOUT HISTORICAL DISINVESTMENT IN  OUR COMMUNITIES.

AS WE EXPERIENCE BOTH  POVERTY ISSUES AND DISINVESTMENT, HISTORICAL  DISINVESTMENT, WHICH I SAW IN MY FORMER COUNCIL  DISTRICT AND THROUGHOUT ALBUQUERQUE, ESPECIALLY  THROUGH THE PANDEMIC HAVING EXACERBATED A LOT OF THESE  ISSUES AND HEIGHTENED THE STRESSORS ON OUR COMMUNITIES  WHEN THEY'RE FACING POVERTY, THAT'S REALLY THINKING ABOUT  THE ROOT OF THE ISSUE, IS HISTORICAL DISINVESTMENT AND  SOME OF THE BARRIERS AND INEQUITIES THAT THESE  FAMILIES HAVE BEEN FACING TO REALLY TRULY ADDRESS SOME OF  THEIR NEEDS.

SO BEING ABLE TO REALLY TRULY MEET THE NEEDS OF OUR  COMMUNITIES AND UPLIFTING THEM AND ADDRESSING THESE  INEQUITIES.

WE'LL CONTINUE TO SEE A LOT  OF, YOU KNOW, THE FRUSTRATION AMPLIFICATION,  WHETHER IT'S VIOLENCE THROUGH DOMESTIC VIOLENCE  AND SOME OF THESE ISSUES, OR EVEN SEXUAL ABUSE.

SO I THINK THAT HAVING TO ADDRESS SOME OF THOSE KEY  ISSUES FIRST AND THINKING THROUGH THAT, THAT'S REALLY  HOW WE BRING OUR FAMILIES AND COMMUNITIES TOGETHER.

>> Gene: SERGE, THE MAYOR WAS QUICK TO TALK ABOUT  OVERALL DECREASES IN VIOLENT PROPERTY CRIMES, BUT HE DID  CONCEDE THAT THIS IS A PERCEPTION ISSUE.

IF PEOPLE DON'T FEEL SAFE, THEY'RE NOT SAFE.

DOES HE HAVE AN AVENUE THERE?

CAN WE ACTUALLY FEEL SAFE IN ALBUQUERQUE OVER THE NEXT  FOUR YEARS?

>> Serge: I MEAN, EVERYBODY  I GUESS HAS THEIR OWN SENSE OF WHAT MAKES THEM FEEL  SAFE, WHAT MAKES THEM FEEL NOT SAFE, AND I UNDERSTAND  PERCEPTION IS REALITY OFTEN.

BUT IN THIS CASE, I THINK WE  SHOULD PUSH BACK AGAINST THAT AND REALLY LOOK AT  ACTUAL DATA, ACTUALLY, YOU KNOW, WHAT'S GOING ON AND  WHERE IT'S HAPPENING, BECAUSE THERE'S A DIFFERENCE  BETWEEN ACTUALLY FEELING UNSAFE AND PEARL CLUTCHING  THAT SOMETIMES HAPPENS WHEN WE, YOU KNOW, WHEN WE HEAR  ABOUT THINGS THAT HAPPENED IN PARTS OF THE CITY THAT  ARE NEAR US, OR THINGS THAT ARE NOT, YOU KNOW, REALLY  GOING TO AFFECT OUR COMMUNITY, OUR DEMOGRAPHIC,  IN THE WAY THAT IT CAN BE AMPLIFIED BY THE MEDIA AND  WHATNOT.

BUT OBVIOUSLY FEELING SAFE  IS AN IMPORTANT THING, AND WE TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW,  DOWNTOWN AND REVITALIZING IT IN A WAY THAT -- I KNOW A  LOT OF PEOPLE SAY THEY DON'T LIKE GOING DOWNTOWN BECAUSE  OF X, Y OR Z REASONS, AND I'D LIKE TO SEE THAT CHANGE.

BUT I DO THINK SAFETY IS -- WHILE I DON'T WANT TO, YOU  KNOW, DISCOUNT THE EMOTIONAL FEELING ASPECT OF IT,  THERE'S ALSO THE REALITY THAT WE CAN LOOK AT AND TALK  ABOUT, AND REALLY THAT'S WHAT SHOULD BE ADDRESSED, IS  THE ACTUAL UNDERLYING DATA.

>> Gene: INTERESTING POINT  THERE.

TOM, WE'VE GOT TO TALK ABOUT  THE ONGOING DOJ MANDATED REFORM EFFORT.

GOT TO GET THERE.

IT'S BEEN NINE YEARS.

IT'S INTERESTING TO THINK ABOUT THAT, RIGHT?

IT'S COST US OVER $10 MILLION, AS YOU KNOW,  FOR THE MONITORING TEAM ALONE.

HOW HAS THE KELLER TEAM -- HOW HAS MAYOR KELLER  APPROACHED THIS PROCESS TO YOU?

A BIT OF A DIFFERENT TUNE HERE NOW THAT WE'RE AT THIS  POINT, BUT A DIFFERENT TUNE MAYBE EVEN A YEAR OR TWO  YEARS AGO ABOUT THIS PROCESS.

WHAT'S YOUR TAKE ON IT?

>> Tom: I MEAN, THERE'S  ANOTHER PIVOT.

HE SAID IN THE INTERVIEW THAT WHEN HE CAME IN, HIS  FIRST APPROACH WAS ESSENTIALLY, SATISFY  DR. GINGER, CHECK EVERY BOX AS NEEDED, AND GET THAT  DONE.

AND THEN HE ASCERTAINED  THAT, WELL, THAT WASN'T SUFFICIENT, BECAUSE EVEN  THOUGH THE SCORES WERE STILL GOING UP IN TERMS OF  COMPLIANCE, FOR WHATEVER REASON HE DIDN'T FEEL THERE  WAS SUFFICIENT PROGRESS.

AND SO THEY TRIED THIS  OTHER, WE'LL TAKE OWNERSHIP OF OUR ACTIONS POLICY, WHICH  I DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH GIVEN I TALK TO  OFFICERS AND SUPERVISORS ON ALMOST A DAILY BASIS ABOUT  WHAT'S REALLY GOING ON BEHIND THE SCENES, AND WHAT  I'M TOLD IS NOT CONSISTENT WITH WHAT THE MAYOR'S  REPRESENTATION WAS.

>> Gene: WHAT'S THE BIGGEST  GAP YOU'RE HEARING, WITHOUT NAMING ANY NAMES, CERTAINLY?

>> Tom: I MEAN, WHEN IT COMES TO ACTUAL SUFFICIENT  PROCESS, WHEN IT COMES TO ACTUAL RESPONDING TO CRIME,  WHEN IT COMES TO ACTUAL TRAINING, IT'S LIKE THERE'S  JUST BEEN SORT OF THIS PERCEPTION GAP BETWEEN WHAT  IS ACTUALLY HAPPENING AND WHAT DOJ IS SEEING.

AND I THINK AS A CONSEQUENCE, IF, IN FACT,  DOJ DOES SORT OF WITHDRAW, I THINK UNFORTUNATELY THE  DEPARTMENT IS SETTING ITSELF UP FOR A VERY, VERY  DIFFICULT TRANSITION PERIOD, BECAUSE IT'S GOING TO BE  LIKE TAKING A SODA CAN THAT'S SORT OF ALL SHOOK UP  AND UNDER PRESSURE, AND DOJ WITHDRAWS AND THE CAP COMES  OFF AND IT JUST FIZZES OUT.

BECAUSE WITH ALL THE  SHOOTINGS THAT WE HAD LAST YEAR, I THINK THAT'S  REFLECTIVE OF WHAT'S HAPPENING WITH THE TRAINING,  WHICH IS THE OFFICERS EITHER DON'T USE ANY FORCE, OR THEY  INSTANTLY GO TO DEADLY FORCE AND THEY DON'T DO ANYTHING  IN BETWEEN.

AND WITHOUT THAT SORT OF,  YOU KNOW, PRESSURE COMING DOWN FROM THEM WITH DOJ, OR  THE VARIOUS UNITS THAT, YOU KNOW, ENFORCE DOJ MANDATES,  THEY WON'T HAVE THAT SCRUTINY, AND WHO KNOWS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

BECAUSE WE ARE DEALING WITH  AN ENTIRELY DIFFERENT GENERATION OF OFFICERS OUT  THERE NOW.

>> Gene: GOOD LAST POINT  THERE, ABSOLUTELY.

AND REMINDER, GUYS, 18  OFFICER SHOOTINGS LAST YEAR.

FOR PEOPLE, THAT'S A LOT OF  FOLKS.

UNBELIEVABLE.

THANKS AGAIN TO OUR LINE PANEL.

REALLY JUST A VERY INTERESTING DISCUSSION.

BE SURE TO LET US KNOW WHAT YOU THINK ABOUT THE STATE OF  THE CITY ADDRESS OR OUR PANELISTS' REACTION TO IT ON  OUR FACEBOOK, TWITTER OR INSTAGRAM PAGES.

AND CATCH ANY EPISODE YOU MIGHT HAVE MISSED ON THE PBS  APP, ON YOUR ROKU OR SMART TV.

THANKS AGAIN FOR JOINING US AND FOR STAYING INFORMED AND  ENGAGED, WE'LL SEE YOU AGAIN NEXT WEEK In FOCUS WHERE  THE MAYOR MADE SOME NEWS IN PART TWO OF HIS CONVERSATION  WITH OUR LOU DIVIZIO.

DON'T MISS IT.

>> Lou: ARE YOU GOING TO RUN FOR A THIRD TERM OF MAYOR TO HELP SEE THOSE THINGS THROUGH?

>> Keller: YOU KNOW, THAT'S CERTAINLY WHAT I'M LOOKING  AT RIGHT NOW.

THAT'S NOT A SECRET.

AND I THINK A LOT OF THESE THINGS, TOO, WE'RE LOOKING  AT COMPLETION.

I'M TALKING ABOUT  GROUNDBREAKINGS NOW IN THE STATE OF THE CITY, BUT IF  WE'RE LOOKING AT COMPLETIONS, WE'RE LOOKING  AT LIKE 2026, 2027.

AND SO RIGHT NOW, THAT'S  DRIVING ME TO SAY, HEY, I WANT TO MAKE SURE AND BE  HERE TO STICK AROUND FOR THAT, AND EVEN GETTING OUT  OF THE CONSENT DECREE.

>> FUNDING FOR NEW MEXICO  In FOCUS PROVIDED BY VIEWERS LIKE YOU.