- It's the 70th anniversary for the Brown v. Board of Education.

What does this monumental Supreme Court decision mean to our younger generations?

And how will it continue to impact current and future generations?

This important discussion coming up, stay with us.

(light music) ♪(bright music)♪ Hello and welcome to IGI, I'm your host LeTiffany Obozele.

2024 marks the 70th anniversary for the Brown v. Board of Education.

The impact this monumental Supreme Court decision has made on America's history is profound, but we still have work to do.

What do our younger generations today know about Brown and how do they believe Brown v. Board has impacted their education and opportunities?

On today's show, I'm excited to talk about this and the importance of maintaining the legacy of Brown v. Board of Education.

Joining us are Asianah McCracken, Dancer, Choreographer, Entrepreneur, and Owner of I AM Passionette.

Adia Vaughn, Health Promotion Specialist with the Shawnee County Health Department, and via Zoom, Angelique Brown, Deputy District Attorney for the 17th Judicial District Attorney's Office in Adams County, Colorado.

Hi ladies, welcome this morning and thank you for being here with us today.

I wanna start with you, Angelique, and then Adia, and then Asianah.

I wanna give you guys each an opportunity to introduce yourself before we kind of talk about what you learned about Brown when you were attending school.

So Angelique.

- I am a Washburn Law alumna.

I am also a Deputy District Attorney, as LeTiffany said, out of the 17th Judicial District Attorney's Office in Adams County, Colorado.

And with that, during my time at Washburn, I was well entrenched into what Brown v. Board of Education truly was like in the Topeka community and the impact it had.

I think a lot of people don't realize that this was in a lot of our family members lifetime, whether it be your grandparents, your parents, and our aunts and uncles and the students of Brown are still walking this earth to this day.

So it's an extremely important case and still has ties to present day.

- Yes, Adia, what about you?

Tell us a little about you and what you learned about Brown.

- So my name's Adia Vaughn, I work for the County County Health Department.

I am originally from Mesquite, Texas, so it's about 30 minutes east of Dallas, not born and raised here.

So learning about Brown growing up was kind of just a little bit quick.

I really learned a lot about it during 11th grade history class and it was all for a test, so we didn't really go into the depths of it.

We kind of just talked about this is what happened, this is the case that overturned, and now let's move on.

So that's what I learned about it growing up.

- Okay, and Asianah, what about you?

Tell us a little bit about you and what you learned about Brown growing up.

- Yes.

So I'm actually from Topeka and I'm happy to say that 'cause I love my hometown.

I am a Professional Dancer and the owner of a new dance company here in Topeka called I AM Passionette.

And so what I've learned from Brown growing up here kind of near the east side of Topeka is that it was a big moment for us all.

And not just Kansas, but for all of us.

And being a part of that has been very inspiring.

I remember going on field trips and just seeing Topeka in our history books and being able to be a part of history in a great way.

- Yes, so I wanna talk to you, Adia, first because I too came from out of town and I came into Topeka and what I hear Asianah saying is that Topeka's really proud and I think anyone who comes from out of town can really feel that, you really feel the impact of Brown.

And so I hear you saying that you learned about it for a test.

Do you feel like you were well-educated about Brown or what would you have changed about your education and learning about Brown?

- What I wish that I had learned more about it was the impacts that it had on the community, because oftentimes, whenever we learn stuff in school from far away, we don't talk about how it impacted the community, we just talk about how it impacted on a national level.

And so when I was in school learning about this, I'm thinking in my head, "Well, I'm never gonna be in Kansas and Topeka to see that."

And here I am in Topeka.

So I'm slowly starting to learn about it and really just taking my time with learning about how it affects the community.

I was just at the library where they had Topeka before and after Brown, which was super inspiring and I was like, I wish I had this growing up and in school learning about this.

- And Angelique, what about you?

I know you've come into Topeka from out of town.

What about you?

What do you wish you would've learned.

- Well, I'm born and raised from Long Island, New York, the home of Mariah Carey.

And similarly, I learned surface level information about Brown v. Board of Education that it overturned Plessy v. Ferguson and we integrated the schools.

But coming into Topeka and going to the Brown School and seeing what the disparities were, it just opened my eyes even more, especially learning about the effects and impact that it did have and that Jim Crow was alive and well during this time.

And even it had good intentions with the court to integrate the schools, the effects where we lost thousands upon thousands of Black educators and school leaders as a result of Jim Crow, and having parents not wanting their students to be taught by Black people.

And that truly opened my eyes.

And it just always goes to show that our education system, a lot of the time they teach us so we can pass a test.

However, there's so much more information we need to learn and we have to make sure we're open to learning that information, have access to that information.

- Okay.

And Asianah, you said that you're proud to be from Topeka and it sounds like they really went into learning about Brown while you were here.

And so what opportunities do you believe that Brown provided for your past, your present, your future?

- Well, it inspired me to become my own educator when I grew up.

I work with kids and adults, everyone of all ages now.

And it's brought such a big impact because having unity in your classrooms outside of your classroom does a lot for an individual.

And so growing up and being a part of that was, again, very inspiring and really set a huge mark on my future.

And so being able to be a part of such a monumental part of history was major because Topeka is a small town, but for it to start here it's a huge part of history and that's why I'm proud to be from Topeka.

- Yeah, we were having an interesting discussion before we were on the show.

We were talking about one of the effects of that Brown decision was that a lot of the educators that were African American ended up not being allowed to teach in the integrated schools because they couldn't teach a lot of the white students.

And so you guys were sharing with me your different experiences of being in classrooms.

And I guess I'll start with you, Asianah.

Do you believe that having educators that look like you sometimes helps with role models and opportunities?

- Yes, yes, I do.

It gives you a different perspective of what's possible and sometimes seeing is believing and we have faith in other belief systems that we work with.

But actually seeing and having a mentor that's kind of gone through more than you have give you an opportunity that they've never had is really, really important.

And being able to have that part of your history throughout your life, it changes you and it's changed me.

I mean I had a lot of colored teachers as well as a lot of multiple race teachers as well.

And so it was amazing to kind of have a diverse educators throughout my life.

But having someone look like me, I knew that it was possible for me.

- Okay.

And Adia, what about you?

- Yes, I think having someone that looks like you helps also, in my school, we had a little bit of all races in my school, but my biggest mentors and teachers that I love the most was my science teacher and my track coach, Ms. Courtney and Coach Ray, they were both Black women and they were put in positions to where I could see just how strong they were.

And I like science growing up, and so having Ms. Courtney as my science teacher, I was all like another Black person doing this.

I can, yes, I like this.

And then having Coach Ray who really, just when we first met, she was new and everything and I was like, "Oh my goodness, I have another Black coach, I'm super happy about this."

And we just bonded.

And I really look up to them a lot even as I'm doing stuff right now, I always think in my head, okay, am I making Ms. Courtney proud?

Am I making Coach Ray proud?

Am I making my parents proud?

So it does help a lot seeing someone that looks like you.

- And Angelique?

- I agree wholeheartedly.

For me, back on Long Island, most of my school, my school district, Westbury School District was predominantly Black and Brown.

And we had a whole lot of a large immigration population as well.

Most of our teachers were not black or brown, but you had some that understood the population of students that they were teaching and they went the extra mile to teach us a little bit more about our history as much as they possibly could.

But even then seeing my Black teachers, my AP English teacher, Ms. James, she would always push me to be the best I could possibly be.

And seeing that Black woman be in the position she was in as educated as she was, she alight in me and encouraged me to be the best I possibly could be, it's priceless.

And it's something that students never forget at all.

- And I think you guys have talked about a variety of experiences that you've had in learning and obviously you are our younger generation.

And so in passing this on and continuing the learning for our younger generations, what would you think it's important for them to know about Brown v. Board?

I guess we'll start with you, Angelique.

- First and foremost, I think it's the first time that the court really looked into how treating students, especially kids differently based on race, has an impact on their development and possible success within the society as a whole.

There are people that were against Brown that argued the fact that they used social science.

The court used social science essentially to justify their reasoning, but one thing's for certain, data doesn't lie, the numbers don't lie.

And the Clark Doll Test that was created by Kenneth and Mamie Clark really illustrated the effects of separate but equal isn't truly equal.

And real briefly, the Clark Doll Test, essentially, NAACP did an amazing job making sure to bring Kenneth and Mamie Clark in trying to determine racial awareness in young students and young children as a whole.

That in a segregated society, children are aware that there are differences based on race and how racial groups are treated, how's that gonna impact how they see themselves?

So when Kenneth Clark and Mamie Clark were showing kids the White Doll and the Black Doll, and they're asking who's the good doll?

Who's the smart doll?

These Black children were choosing that white doll and who's the bad doll?

They're choosing the Black doll.

But that last question of well, pick the doll that looks like you and they're choosing that Black Doll, it all came into play as to how a Jim Crow society affects children.

And I think children are a major way to tug at heartstrings.

No one wants to break a child's heart.

So to see that effect, that was the best way we could have sold Brown and made sure that it went through the courts and we got the result that we were able to have and it overturned Plessy v. Ferguson.

So with that, I think that was incredible.

I think that was very smart and extremely needed and necessary.

- Asianah, what about you?

What is something you think the future younger generation needs to know about Brown v. Board of Education?

- Well, it would show that Topeka is more than just the capital.

It shows that there is hope here and that we have people that care about us and that fought for our future.

And that's why it's so important to know our history and incorporate our past into our present, to have full knowledge about what's been going on, what we can do for those that will come in the future for upcoming generations.

And so it really just is a powerful message overall for people just to know that Topeka is important, that there is hope for us, that there is strength, there's dignity for us.

So that's what I think about it.

- And Adia, what about you?

What would you add that future generations should know about Brown v. Board of Education?

- That these are people first, these are children that had to go through this.

These are parents, these are brothers, sisters, grandparents, parents, like all of it.

These are people first.

And I think that as long as we continue to teach 'em, like look at the mindset of if you were in this position, I think empowering our students to do that will help change how they kind of view Brown v. Board and not look at it as a surface level, but look at it deeper, like, this is real life.

This isn't something that you just read about in a book.

You can take a trip and you can come here and you can see it.

And I think that that would be one thing that I would say.

- Yes.

So Asianah, one of the things, I think there's differing views on history, right?

There's differing views on why we learn about history.

And one of those reasons I think we like to learn about history and we like to learn is we never wanna forget, right?

There's lessons to be learned in history.

And so what is something, what is the reason why you think we should learn about Brown and never forget?

- Well, it's a celebration.

It's a time for us to express ourselves and be able to come together and remember a moment that brought unity for the community and others around.

And so it's a moment for us to really embrace who we are, that we are able to be together, that it brought a difference to us as the people and it really impacted everyone.

And it's really important to make sure everyone has the knowledge about it because it's a very important part of history that allowed us to really have inspirations and have a different perspective of who we can be.

- Okay, Adia, Angelique?

- I would like to say you can kind of see how, even though we like to think that our school systems are equal, it's not equal.

And I think with Brown, it kind of helps lighten that, lighten that a little bit where you can see in a community, you can see one school has everything and one school doesn't have everything.

So it really just puts everything onto display and it gets people to ask questions, well, why is this happening?

So that's what I think.

- Okay, and Angelique?

- I think it's important to know and acknowledge the work that has been done to even get to where we got with Brown v. Board of Education.

That was a time that we were able to see the future of Justice Thurgood Marshall show his stuff before the Supreme Court when he was working with the NAACP.

It's also important to understand that that's another way we got to the conversation of equality, but now we're having those conversations that equality was great and we had to get there in order to be where we are today, but now we have to open the doors and have the conversation about equity, that it isn't necessarily about giving everyone the same opportunities and the same resources that some people in some groups have lacked the ability to even be at the same starting line as everybody else.

And that in order to truly reach a place of equity, there needs to be more help, there needs to be some assistance.

And by taking away access to information, access to our history and our history books is not gonna help solve the problem.

So there is still work to be done, but it's also so important to recognize that all the work that was done when Brown v. Board of Education was going on, that was a team effort and it was comprised of five different cases from four different states.

- Yeah, okay, so I wanna talk about some of that in real time.

So we know that this is coming up on the 70th anniversary and Adia, you made an interesting point, you said that, you know, and all of you have made an interesting point, but you said something about resources depending on where you are.

And so, obviously, Brown says not separate but equal, it takes some time for that actually to get implemented, right?

It doesn't immediately happen because the decision comes out.

And so do you think today there's still segregation in schools?

Are there a divide in resources depending on where your school's located?

You mentioned that not everywhere has the same resources, so I'd like to maybe explore that a little bit more starting with you.

- Yes, I do think that there is a division of resources, depending on where you live, if you live in a certain zip code that may be more affluent.

And so that school has nicer things.

And if you live in another zip code that's not as affluent, you don't have as nicer things.

And you can of see it when you drive down the street, and it's not just for Topeka, it's for everywhere in the country.

Like depending on what street you drive down, you can just see that that community is not taken care of as opposed to another community.

And people are asking, "Well how is this happening?

Like how can we do this?

What can we do to make sure that this community has all the resources that they need?"

And it's also inspiring to see that the students in communities where there's not a lot of resources, they're still accomplishing amazing things.

So even though having resources would help, but just think about if we actually put money into there and to empower those students and tell them like, even though you're doing this with a little bit, we want you to have a lot so you can just accomplish even more.

- Yeah.

And Angelique, you were just talking about this too, opportunity, resources, depending on the areas.

What else could you add to this?

- Well, in the words of James Baldwin, "How long do we have to wait for your progress?"

It also comes down to knowing who you're electing on these school boards.

It comes down to knowing who you're electing in your state legislatures.

I come from a underfunded school district, but even despite that underfunding, school district continues to produce amazing students that do amazing things and people give back, there's multiple grants, but that's not the same for everybody else.

And again, it goes right back to that equity conversation that you need, one, you need to know who you're putting into office, who's creating these rules and regulations that affect the funding of your children's school.

And education doesn't just start and end at the school bell.

You have to educate at home as well.

So there's a lot of things that could be done, but it's really a team effort as well.

You have to, it requires work and it requires that you have knowledge and know who you're putting into these positions of power.

And you can't be docile and passive about these things.

You have to be informed 'cause information is power.

We've heard it time and time again, but it still remains true to this day.

- Okay.

So Asianah, I wanna throw something else into the mix.

Earlier we were talking about it's really nice to have mentors and teachers that look like you, but that's not always the opportunity, and you mentioned that you've had the experience of having both racially diverse and you've had other opportunities that it's more of a majority school.

And so I'm curious on your opinion on what are the benefits of having racially diverse classrooms and schools and educators?

- Yes.

So it gives you a different point of view on life.

Again, I'm a professional dancer, so I've been in all kinds of rooms in different states and have been in very different settings.

And so sometimes being like the only African American dancer on your team, it's a different experience.

Especially in Kansas where like the dynamics of everything is kind of coming to a form now, not so much then.

And so it really gave me a moment to kind of become a part of that history and to make that impact on my own almost because I was able to go through my own journey and become an educator.

And I thank God for this moment because if it wasn't for this moment, I wouldn't have half my students.

I teach a very diverse crowd of all ages and it brings unity, it brings just a different kind of scope of things, especially for the Topeka community and me being able to travel and go to different states, coming back to Topeka, especially recently, I've been able to see the expansion of our schools and resources and it's amazing to see that, 'cause that's what it's about.

And so I would just continue to push past the mindset of everything and to know that it's beyond the resources, that it's about continuing on the celebration and doing what we've been able to see as examples of the people that were mentors for us, but people that may not look like us, that have been able to pour into us as well.

- Yeah.

And Adia, in Kansas right now, we have that teacher retention crisis.

And so hearing what Asianah has to say about that racial diversity in schools and that benefit and her getting to go around and growing and experiencing, what impact do you think that has as well?

- I think it has a good impact getting all those different points of views.

Sometimes even though it is nice to look at people who look like us, sometimes you do need to broaden your scope, and broaden your horizon because too much of a good thing can be a bad thing eventually.

So I think what she was saying, having multiple diverse teachers to look at different things.

I know when I went to college, it was a complete opposite of what I experienced growing up, but I got to learn so much about how everyone grew up.

I got to learn a lot about my professors and see things from their perspective.

And so it is important to have racially diverse community.

- Okay.

And Angelique, for you, I wanna know, right?

We're forward-focused, we're forward, we've looked back, we're looking at Brown, we're seeing how it can impact us.

The future is bright.

I'm looking at you guys and I wanna know what can we continue to do today with you guys serving as role models for people who wanna volunteer, for children wanting to get involved in opportunities, educating people about the history.

I know we've got the 70th Anniversary Brown Coalition here in Topeka, but I'm gonna start with you, Angelique.

What do you think we can do today to keep forward movement as we continue to move forward from Brown?

- Educate, educate, educate.

It's so important to reach your hand back and uplift the next generation to come.

It's so important to provide them with the information necessary for them to be successful.

And oftentimes, it's not the prettiest of history, but it's like a rose growing from the concrete.

Something beautiful comes out of our history, even though it does come from parts of struggle, I think it's important that mentorship and being the person that you wanted your younger self to see is extremely important.

I'm a strong believer that in order, sometimes in order to do something, you have to see someone that looks like you do to really know it's possible.

It's scary being that first person, but it's possible.

So making sure that you're visible, that you're communicating with the youth, that you're educating the youth at that is super important.

Especially your peers too.

All of us amongst the same age group and even older folk, having to have that community and those conversations because again, the descendants of the Brown v. Board of Education case, they're still walking this earth to this day and there's so much to learn from previous generations.

So definitely having those conversations and making sure we're educating each other is super important because we're watching education be attacked through the legislature.

So making sure you know who you're voting for and putting into office is extremely important as well.

- Adia?

- I agree.

I think educating our younger generation, and I also think that they should be able to educate their parents as well.

So that way everyone is coming into the conversation and it creates a whole and healthy conversation about this is what we learned, this is how it impacts us, this is what I see.

And then it gives the parents a chance to say, this is what I saw growing up.

And so now we were able to bridge that gap and have a nice conversation about this.

- Okay, Asianah?

- I would like to say there's no place like home and that anything is possible.

Just have faith and just know that we all are in this together, literally.

And when it comes to a dream or just being a part of a moment like this, get involved, volunteer, get to know who you're around, bring things to a new, start something, 'cause with my business, I AM Passionette, we don't just dance, we do dance, voice, and literature.

It's a representation of who you are, where you're coming from, and basically also where you're going.

And so the rim of where we are is really helpful for the future.

- Okay.

And I wanna give you a quick minute to tell folks about the Brown 70th Anniversary Coalition.

Is that a way for folks to be able to get involved if they're interested in participating for 70th anniversary events?

- Absolutely.

It is a wonderful way to get involved and then also kind of looking out into the community and asking people, "Hey, where can I go volunteer at?"

There's lots of different ways to go and get that.

- So we've got dance, we've got entrepreneurship, we've got teaching, we've got the coalition, we've got the law, legislature.

We've got a little bit of everything.

So Asianah, Adia, and Angelique, thank you all so much for taking the time to visit with me today and to talk about Brown v. Board of Education.

That's all the time we have for this episode of IGI.

If you have any comments or suggestions for future topics, send us an email at issues@ktw.org.

If you'd like to view this program again or any previous episodes of IGI, visit us online at watch.ktwu.org.

For IGI, I'm LeTiffany Obozele.

Thanks for watching.

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