>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO AMANPOUR AND COMPANY.

HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.

AN OPENING FOR PRESIDENT BIDEN AT THE G-20.

WITH RUSSIAN AND CHINESE LEADERS OPTING OUT.

I ASKED WHAT SHOULD BE TOP OF HIS AGENDA AS HE FACES POLITICAL HEADWIND BACK HOME.

THEN, HAVING ILLEGAL CONTEXT THAT SUPPORT DECISION REPRESENTS A BIG CHANGE.

>> VICTORY FOR WOMEN'S RIGHTS ON TWO FRONTS IN MEXICO.

AS ABORTION IS DECRIMINALIZED IN THE COUNTRY'S PRESIDENTIAL RACE IS SET BETWEEN TWO FEMALE CANDIDATES.

>>> PLUS -- >> ♪ >> BLIND BOYS IN ALABAMA.

JIMMY CARTER AND RICKY McKINNEY TELL ME ABOUT THEIR NEW ALBUM, ECHOES OF THE SOUTH.

ALSO AHEAD -- >> A PORTION COMES BACK TO STUDENTS BEING ON THESE SORTS OF THINGS.

>>> COLLEGE SPENDING.

WHERE DOES IT GO AND WHO FOOT THE BILL LACKS WE SPEAK TO EDUCATOR MELISSA KORN ABOUT HER INVESTIGATION FOR THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.

>> I'M IMPORTANT COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY CANDACE KING LEAR, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LAYLA AND MICKEY STRAUSS, JIM ATWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, MARK J BLUSH IN HER, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, KOO AND PATRICIA .

WE TRY TO LIVE IN THE MOMENT TO NOT MISS WHAT IS RIGHT IN FRONT OF US.

AT MUTUAL OF AMERICA, WE BELIEVE TAKEN CARE OF TOMORROW CAN HELP YOU MAKE THE MOST OF TODAY.

MUTUAL OF AMERICA FINANCIAL GROUP.

RETIREMENT SERVICES AND INVESTMENTS.

ADDITIONAL SUPPORT PROVIDED BY THESE FUNDERS, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO A PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I AM THE UNCLE, SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

WORLD LEADERS ARRIVE IN INDIA FOR THE G20 SUMMIT.

THEY APPEAR DIVIDED OVER ISSUES LIKE RUSSIA'S WAR IN UKRAINE.

WITH NO JOINT STATEMENT AGREED UPON AT ANY OF THE MEETINGS THIS YEAR SO FAR.

FOR PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN, IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY TO SHOWCASE AMERICA'S -- ON THE WORLD ORDER.

A PITCH THAT NOT ONLY MATTERS FOR AMERICANS ABROAD, BUT FOR AMERICA'S OWN RATINGS AT HOME.

POLLING SHOWS WE ARE STRUGGLING.

67% OF DEMOCRATIC VOTERS SAY THE PARTY SHOULD NOMINATE A DIFFERENT CANDIDATE FOR NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION.

EVAN OFFICE IN MARYLAND, WHO PROFILED PRESIDENT BIDEN IN HIS BOOK, AND MONA SHARON.

SHE JOINS THE SHOW FROM ARLINGTON, VIRGINIA.

WELCOME TO BOTH OF YOU.

EVAN, LET'S START WITH YOU.

AS WE HAVE THE PRESIDENT TOUCHING DOWN IN INDIA, WHAT DOES HE HAVE TO ACCOMPLISH GOING INTO THIS G20 SUMMIT?

WHAT WOULD HE LIKE TO ACCOMPLISH?

>> IN SOME WAYS, THIS TRIP IS ABOUT PUTTING HIS MONEY WHERE HIS MOUTH IS.

HE HAS BEEN TALKING ABOUT THE IMPORTANCE OF GLOBAL COOPERATION FROM THE BEGINNING.

IT WAS PART OF HIS PITCH WHEN HE RAN AGAINST DONALD TRUMP IN 2020.

SAYING THE UNITED STATES NEEDS TO BE A BIG PLAYER IN THE WORLD.

HE NEEDS TO FORTIFY ITS RELATIONSHIPS WITH OTHER KEY PARTNERS AND ALLIES.

YOU ARE LIKELY TO SEE HIM, NUMBER ONE, GIVING A BIG EMBRACE, TO SOME DEGREE, OF INDIA.

WHICH IS THE WORLD'S LARGEST DEMOCRACY.

AT SOME LEVEL, THIS IS A REMINDER THAT COUNTRIES CAN HAVE DIFFERENCES AND STILL HAVE KEY RELATIONSHIPS.

INDIA IS A BIG CUSTOMER FOR RUSSIAN ENEMY -- ENERGY AND WEAPONS.

BUT FUNDAMENTALLY, BIDEN IS SAYING, WE ARE HERE AND WE WANT YOU TO BE A PART OF THESE BIG INTERNATIONAL ATTRIBUTIONS.

THE WORLD BANK, THE CAPITAL IMF, AND THE UNSUBTLE OBJECT OF SOME OF THESE COMMENTS IS CHINA.

THEY HAVE BEEN DOLING OUT MONEY AROUND THE WORLD AND WE WANT TO SAY, NO, THE UNITED STATES IS STILL HERE.

>> CHINA HAS THEIR PRESENCE, XI JINPING, NOT ATTENDING THE SUMMIT.

LAST YEAR, HE ATTENDED VIRTUALLY.

BIDEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE TODAY SAYING THEY ARE DISAPPOINTED IN CONVEYING THAT PRIME MINISTER MODI IS ALSO DISAPPOINTED IN CHINA'S ABSENCE.

BUT USE A WORD YOU ARE FAMILIAR WITH, IS THE UNITED STATES SMART NOW TO VIEW INDIA AS A POTENTIAL BULWARK AGAINST CHINA?

INDIA IS OBVIOUSLY A GROWING COUNTRY ECONOMICALLY, SURPASSING CHINA IN POPULATION.

THAT HAVING BEEN SAID, WE HAVE HAD MANY INDIAN EXPERTS WHO SAY, JUST HOLD YOUR HORSES A BIT HERE.

INDIA WILL NOT STEP IN AND TAKE SIDES ANYTIME SOON.

>> RIGHT.

INDIA IS CLEARLY STRADDLING HERE.

THEY HAVE BEEN BUYING UP RUSSIAN OIL, AS WE MENTIONED.

THEY HAVE BEEN IN CONTENTION WITH CHINA OVER THEIR BORDER IN A RECENTLY RELEASED MAP THAT SHOWED CHINESE OWNERSHIP OF A TERRITORY THAT INDIA CLAIMS.

AND, YET, THEIR RELATIONS WITH US HAVE BEEN STRAINED, PARTLY BECAUSE THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION, ALTHOUGH IT HAS BEEN COURTING INDIA, HAS ALSO EXPRESSED SOME DISMAY ABOUT THEIR DOMESTIC HUMAN RIGHTS RECORD.

SO, THERE IS THIS LITTLE DANCE GOING ON AT THE G 20.

WITH ALL OF THE MAJOR PLAYERS.

BUT HERE IS THE THING.

BIDEN IS VERY FORTUNATE IN THAT.

AT THIS G-20, NEITHER RUSSIA NOR CHINA IS IN EVIDENCE.

IN BOTH OF THOSE COUNTRIES, WHO ARE BIDDING FOR WORLD LEADERSHIP AND SO FORTH, ARE REALLY HITTING SOME SEVERE TURBULENCE RIGHT NOW.

RUSSIA, OF COURSE, IS FEELING THE EFFECTS OF SANCTIONS.

IT IS BOGGED DOWN IN A WAR IN UKRAINE THAT HAS ACCOSTED FINANCIALLY AND IN TERMS OF INTERNATIONAL PRESTIGE.

CHINA IS NOW HAVING SOME SEVERE ECONOMIC REVERSES WITH THE UNEMPLOYMENT RATE AMONG YOUTH SO HIGH THAT THEY HAVE DECIDED TO STOP PUBLISHING STATISTIC.

SO THIS IS A MOMENT FOR BIDEN TO STEP FORWARD AND SAY, LOOK -- BECAUSE PEOPLE ARE WORRIED ABOUT THE UNITED STATES.

ESPECIALLY, YOU KNOW, WHETHER WE ARE -- WHETHER WE OUGHT TO BE A WORLD LEADER.

THERE IS A LOT OF WORRY ABOUT WHAT MIGHT HAPPEN IN 2024.

BUT RIGHT NOW, IN 2023, BIDEN IS IN A POSITION TO STEP FORWARD AND SAY WE ARE THE ONLY ONES WHO HAVE EMERGED FROM COVID AND FROM THE RECENT TURMOIL WITH OUR ECONOMY IN DECENT SHAPE, AND WITH OUR ALLIANCES IN GOOD SHAPE.

>> THE PRESENT, AFTER HIS TRIP TO INDIA, HE WILL BE BEGET VISITING VIETNAM ALSO APPEARED A COUNTRY THE UNITED STATES IS HOPING TO USE, AGAIN, AS A BULWARK AGAINST CHINA.

OR AT LEAST AN ALTERNATIVE COMEDY OF MANY OF ITS INVENTORY AND PRODUCTS BUILT THERE AND NOT RELYING SO MUCH ON CHINA AS IT HAD IN THE PAST.

THIS LEADS US TO OUR NEXT QUESTION, EVAN, ABOUT HIS IDEA OF WHAT DECOUPLING MAY OR MAY NOT LOOK LIKE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND CHINA.

PRESIDENT BIDEN CONTINUES TO SAY THAT HE WOULD LIKE TO NAVIGATE A COMPETITION AND NOT ANYTHING FURTHER THAN THAT.

AND HE DOES NOT WANT TO HAVE CONFLICT WITH THE COUNTRY.

IT IS A FINE BALANCE FOR THE COUNTRY AND FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION, AND A FINE LINE FOR IT TO WALK.

THIS ADMINISTRATION IS CONTINUING ITS ERA OF TARIFFS, IT HAS MORE EXPERT CONTROLS AND RESTRICTIONS.

REPUBLICANS ARE CALLING FOR FURTHER RESTRICTIONS AFTER IT BECAME KNOWN THAT SOME CHIPS INSIDE OF PHONES MAY HAVE BROKEN CURRENT TRADE RESTRICTIONS WITH THE COUNTRY.

HOW IS THIS ADMINISTRATION WITH PRESENT BUT IN HANDLING THIS RELATIONSHIP?

IT IS THE ONE ISSUE WHERE YOU ARE SEEING AN AGREEMENT AMONG REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS, VIS- C-VIS CHINA.

>> IT IS.

IT IS INTERESTING AND COMPLEX.

I WAS IN BEIJING A COUPLE WEEKS AGO.

I CAN TELL YOU, IN CHINA, THEY ARE TRYING VERY HARD TO FIGURE OUT HOW FAR DOES THIS UNRAVELING GO.

AND WHAT I CONCLUDED BASED ON MY CONTEXT ON THIS SITE AND TALKING WITH PEOPLE IN BEIJING, WHAT WE ARE SEEING RIGHT NOW IS ESSENTIALLY A POLITICAL AND PSYCHOLOGICAL DECOUPLING.

BUT IT IS NOT ULTIMATELY AN ECONOMIC DECOUPLING.

USUALLY WITHIN THESE SPECIFIC ERRORS, TECHNOLOGY IS AT THE CENTER OF IT.

AREAS IN WHICH THE UNITED STATES IS ERECT BARRIERS AROUND WHAT IT WILL AND WILL NOT SELL AND WILL AND WILL NOT INVEST IN.

CHINA HAS BEEN DOING THAT FOR YEARS IN THE NAME OF NATIONAL SECURITY.

BUT THE BIGGER CHANGE IS THIS IDEA OF THE PARTING OF THE PAST BETWEEN THESE TWO GIANT COUNTRIES.

AND WHAT YOU ARE SEEING AT THE G-20 IS A PRETTY SPECIFIC DESIGNATION OF THAT.

CHINA IS ESSENTIALLY STAYING HOME.

PARTLY BECAUSE THEY HAVE A VERY FULL DOMESTIC PLATE.

I WILL BE DESCRIBING THIS IN NEW YORK IN A COUPLE WEEKS.

BUT THAT IS A MAJOR PREOCCUPYING FACTOR FOR PRESIDENT XI JINPING.

HE SAID THIS LOOKS LIKE A YEAR IN WHICH THIS IS ACTUALLY MORE OF AN AMERICAN SHOW THAN A CHINESE SHOW.

AND I THINK I WILL GO ELSEWHERE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE ELEPHANT IN THE ROOM AND THE HEADWINDS THAT PRESIDENT BIDEN IS BRINGING WITH HIM AND FACES AS HE MEETS WITH GLOBAL LEADERS?

THIS WEEK HAD DEVASTATING POLES, BUT FROM THE WALL STREET JOURNAL AND FROM OUR OWN POLLING.

WAS REGIONAL, 73% OF VOTERS SAY THEY BELIEVE BIDEN IS TOO OLD TO SEEK A SECOND TERM.

SAME THING FROM CNN.

THEY ARE CONCERNED THAT BIDEN'S AGE MAY NEGATIVELY AFFECT HIS CURRENT LEVEL OF PHYSICAL AND MENTAL COMPETENCE.

ON PAPER, YOU COULD SAY HE HAS ACCOMPLISHED QUITE A LOT.

BOTH DOMESTICALLY WHEN IT COMES TO HIS SIGNATURE LEGISLATION.

THE UNITED STATES, COMPARED TO OTHER WORLD ECONOMIES IS FARING FAR BETTER.

LOOKS LIKE WE MAY AVOID A RECESSION.

HE HAD KEPT NATO'S ALLIANCE INTACT, VIS-C-VIS THE WAR IN UKRAINE.

AND REALLY POSITIONED HIMSELF TOWARDS INVESTING MORE IN ASIA AND THE AMERICAS PRESENT THERE.

THAT BEEN SAID, HOW DOES THIS ADMINISTRATION, HOW SHOULD IT RESPOND TO THESE TYPES OF DEVASTATING FIGURES?

>> WELL, LOOK.

THE FACT IS THE PRESIDENT HAS A LOT TO BOAST ABOUT ON FOREIGN POLICY.

HE HAS DONE A CREDIBLE JOB.

I WOULD ARGUE HE COULD BE QUICKER ABOUT DELIVERING ARMS TO UKRAINE, HE STILL CAN.

BUT THAT MUCH HAVING BEEN SAID, YOU KNOW, VOTERS ARE NOTORIOUSLY UNWILLING TO GIVE PRESIDENTS CREDIT FOR FOREIGN POLICY SUCCESSES.

YOU KNOW, WE HAD GEORGE HW BUSH PRESIDE OVER A WINNING WAR IN THE GULF, AND ENJOY SOMETHING LIKE 93% SUPPORT RIGHT AFTER THE SUCCESSFUL CONCLUSION OF THAT WAR, AND HE WOULD GO ON TO BE DEFEATED TWO YEARS LATER.

SO, FOREIGN POLICY ONLY GETS YOU SO FAR WITH THE ELECTORATE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS THAT IS JOGGING PRESIDENT BIDEN IS THAT INFLATION HAS BEEN, YOU KNOW, PERSISTENTLY HIGH.

THE RATE IS TRENDING DOWN, BUT THAT NOT HAS -- THAT HAS NOT CAUGHT UP WITH WHAT PEOPLE ARE PAYING FOR GROCERIES AT THE SUPERMARKET.

PRICES ARE STILL WAY UP COMPARED WITH 2020 OR CERTAINLY IN 2019.

INFLATION IS VERY PUNISHING FOR PRESIDENTS.

VOTERS ARE NEVER HAPPY ABOUT IT.

AND THEN, OF COURSE, THERE IS CONCERN ABOUT HIS AGE.

WHAT CAN HE DO ABOUT IT?

HE CAN TRY TO BE A LITTLE BIT MORE PRESENT.

A LOT OF BOATERS FEEL THAT HE IS NOT REALLY INHABITING THE OFFICE.

THAT HE DOES NOT COMMUNICATE WITH PEOPLE ENOUGH.

YOU KNOW, IT IS INARGUABLE THAT THE PREVIOUS OCCUPANT OF THE OVAL OFFICE WAS WAY TOO MUCH IN OUR FEED AND IN OUR BRAINS.

BUT, ARGUABLY, THIS PRESIDENT HAS BEEN TOO LITTLE.

HE NEEDS TO REASSURE PEOPLE THAT HE IS IN CHARGE, THAT HE IS NOT SENILE, AND THAT HE IS NOT TOO FEEBLE TO SERVE ANOTHER TERM.

>> YOU KNOW THIS MAN QUITE WELL.

HOW DOES THE JOE BIDEN THAT YOU KNOW REACT TO THESE TYPES OF WHOLE NUMBERS?

HE HAS HISTORICALLY BEEN UNDERESTIMATED.

HE USED THAT AS HIS KRYPTONITE TO, YOU KNOW, TO ANOTHER JOURNALIST, WE KNOW THE POLLS HAVE NOT BEEN ACCURATE, TO SAY THE LEAST THE PAST FEW YEARS.

WHAT IS HIS RESPONSE, IN YOUR VIEW TO THESE FIGURES?

>> YOU KNOW, HE HAS TWO ELEMENTS.

THE HEART AND THE HEAD.

THE HEAD, THE RATIONAL PART OF HIM KNOWS THIS IS ROUGH SLEDDING.

AS A POLITICIAN, AS AN OCCUPANT OF THE WHITE HOUSE, YOU DO NOT WANT TO SEE POLLS LIKE THIS.

I THINK THERE IS FRUSTRATION ON HIS PART.

HE SAYS, LOOK AT WHAT WE HAVE DONE ON DOMESTIC LEGISLATION.

CLIMATE, INFRASTRUCTURE, DOMESTIC MANUFACTURING, ALL TVs AS HE THINKS WILL ULTIMATE PAY DIVIDENDS IN THIS COUNTRY.

AMERICANS DO NOT FEEL IT FOR PRECISELY THE REASONS WE HAVE JUST BEEN TALKING ABOUT.

YOU KNOW, INFLATION HAS A HANGOVER EFFECT.

EVEN THOUGH THE NUMBERS ARE GOING DOWN, THEY ARE STILL ELEVATED FROM WHERE THEY WERE A FEW YEARS AGO.

IT SCORCHES VOTERS.

BUT THERE IS ANOTHER ELEMENT.

HE KNOWS, FUNDAMENTALLY, HIS ENTIRE LIFE HAS BEEN ABOUT THESE MOMENTS WHERE PEOPLE SAY THIS GUY IS FINISHED, HE CANNOT DO IT.

AND THEN SOMEHOW, HE MANAGES TO COME BACK.

WHEN I WAS WRITING ABOUT HIM IN 2020, REMEMBER, HE WAS REALLY DEAD IN THE WATER BEFORE THAT SOUTH CAROLINA PRIMARY.

IT WAS JUST A CAMPAIGN THAT WAS NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

AND IN THE END, WHAT HAPPENED IS THE PARTY ESSENTIALLY COALESCED AROUND SOMEBODY WHO HAS A TRACK RECORD, WHO MAY NOT BE THE KIND OF SHIMMERING NEW OBJECT, BUT IS SOMEBODY THAT IS THE KEY ATTRIBUTE OF HAVING BEATEN DONALD J TRUMP FOR THE PRESIDENCY.

THAT IS WHAT DEMOCRATS ARE BANKING ON.

THAT VOTERS WILL COALESCE AROUND THAT FACT.

>> I SHOULD CORRECT MYSELF.

WITH FRANKLIN FORD THAT THAT BEING UNDERESTIMATED WAS BIDEN'S DIESEL, NOT HIS KRYPTONITE.

FORGIVE ME FOR THAT.

MONA, IN OUR FINAL FEW SECONDS, I WOULD LIKE TO GET YOU TO RESPOND TO THIS AD THAT THE CAMPAIGN IS PUTTING OUT THIS WEEKEND TO AIR ON 60 MINUTE.

>> ENTERED UKRAINE UNDER THE COVER OF NIGHT.

AND IN THE MORNING, JOE BIDEN WALKED SHOULDER TO SHOULDER WITH OUR ALLIES IN THE WAR-TORN STREETS.

STANDING UP FOR DEMOCRACY IN A PLACE WHERE A TYRANT IS WAGING WAR TO TAKE IT AWAY.

>> AIR RAID SIRENS BLAIR AS THE TWO MEN WALK TOGETHER.

>> IN THE MIDDLE OF A WAR ZONE, JOE BIDEN SHOWED THE WORLD WHAT AMERICA IS MADE OF.

THAT IS THE QUIET STRENGTH OF A TRUE LEADER WHO DOES NOT BACK DOWN TO A DICTATOR.

>> EFFECTIVE AD.

AND IN YOUR VIEW, ESPECIALLY NOTING YOU THINK YOU COULD HAVE DONE MORE IN AIDING UKRAINE.

PUTTING REPUBLICAN VOTERS ASIDE, HOW ABOUT UNDECIDED VOTERS?

>> YEAH, LOOK.

LEAVING ASIDE THE MERITS OF HOW HE GOT THE SHIPMENTS TO UKRAINE, THAT IS AN EFFECTIVE AD, I GUESS.

BUT HERE IS THE PROBLEM.

THERE IS SUCH A WIDESPREAD PERCEPTION AMONG VOTERS, INCLUDING AMONG DEMOCRATS, THAT BIDEN IS NOT UP TO THE JOB.

AND SO WHEN THAT IS PEOPLE'S SUSPICION, WHEN THERE ARE A SIGNIFICANT NUMBER OF VOTERS WHO THINK YOU MAY BE SENILE AT THIS STAGE, A PACKAGE LIKE THAT, A CANNED AD THAT IS NOT SPONTANEOUS AND IS NOT LIVE IS ONLY GOING TO GO SO FAR.

PEOPLE NEED TO SEE HIM IN REAL TIME.

THEY NEED TO SEE HIM REACT IN REAL TIME.

YOU KNOW, TO AN INTERVIEW OR TO A DEBATE.

OR TO LIVE ACTION THINGS.

BECAUSE THEY ARE WORRIED THAT HE IS MORE ENFEEBLED THAN HE REALLY IS, IN MY JUDGMENT.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, ON THE OTHER HAND, THE WAY HIS HANDLERS KEEP CODDLING HIM AND PROTECTING HIM FROM THOSE ENCOUNTERS, IT DOES RAISE QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER THEY THINK HE WILL PERFORM WELL UNDER THOSE CONDITIONS.

>> IT IS INTERESTING.

ACCORDING TO THE WALL STREET JOURNAL POLL, ONLY 40% IN PERCENT OF VOTERS THINK DONALD TRUMP IS TOO OLD TO BE PRESIDENT.

HE IS ONLY THREE YEARS YOUNGER THAN JOE BIDEN.

IT IS ALWAYS GREAT TO SEE YOU, THANK YOU.

>> LEISURE.

>>> ONE ISSUE THAT THEY FEATURE HEAVILY IN THE NEXT U.S. ELECTION IS ABORTION.

THE FUTURE OF A NEW DIGITAL AD.

THE SUPREME COURT DECISION TO OVERTURN ROE VERSUS WADE CONTINUES TO REVERBERATE.

SOUTH OF THE BORDER IN MEXICO, THE COURTS HAVE MOVED IN THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.

RULING THIS WEEK TO FEDERALLY DECRIMINALIZE ABORTION.

TAKE A LISTEN TO THIS REACTION FROM A STUDENT IN MEXICO CITY.

>> MEXICO IS AN INCREDIBLY MISOGYNISTIC, A COUNTRY THAT IS DEEPLY TRADITIONALLY RIGID IDEAS.

-- REPRESENT A BIG CHANGE.

I HOPE WE WILL BE ABLE TO SEE A CHANGE IN MENTALITY OF THE POPULATION SO THEY STOP HARASSING PREGNANT PEOPLE WHO DECIDE TO STOP THEIR PREGNANCIES.

>>> IT COMES AS A COUNTRY IT LOOKS TO GET ITS FIRST FEMALE PRESIDENT, WITH LEADING PARTIES ANNOUNCING WOMEN CANDIDATES FOR NEXT YEAR'S ELECTION.

FOR MORE ON HOW MEXICO GOT HERE, WOMEN'S RIGHTS ACTIVIST GABRIELLA HERRERA JOINS US NOW FROM MEXICO CITY.

GABRIELLA, IT IS GOOD TO SEE YOU.

THIS DECISION NOW BUILDS ON AN EARLIER RULING IN 2021 BY THE HIGH COURT.

DECRIMINALIZING ABORTION AND CALLING DECRIMINALIZING ABORTION UNCONSTITUTIONAL, BUT THAT ONLY APPLIED TO ONE STATE.

HOW SIGNIFICANT WAS THE RULING THIS WEEK?

AND WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION WHEN YOU HEARD IT?

>> HELLO, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

IT WAS A VERY, VERY EXCITING SUPREME COURT DECISION.

FIRST OF ALL, IT WAS UNANIMOUSLY RULED.

SO THAT IS INTERESTING.

AND, YEAH.

IT CAME TWO YEARS LATER.

IN ITS GROWTH AND EXPAND ON THAT RULING.

AND SO, BASICALLY NOW, ABORTION IS NOT A CRIME.

YOU KNOW, CALLING IT A CRIME IS ANTICONSTITUTIONAL.

SO, THE COURT REQUIRES ARTICLES 330, 331, 333, AND 334 TO BE REMOVED FROM THE FEDERAL PENAL CODE.

THESE WERE THE ARTICLES THAT CRIMINALIZED ABORTION.

SO, AS YOU SAID NOW, THIS MEANS CRIMINALIZING ABORTION IS ANTICONSTITUTIONAL.

BUT ALSO, THE RULING USES INTERESTING LANGUAGE.

IT CALLS IT A VIOLATION OF HUMAN RIGHTS.

AND IT INSISTS ON ABORTION AS A HUMAN RIGHT.

SO, THIS IS GREAT.

WHAT THIS MEANS, IT MEANS SEVERAL THINGS.

FIRSTLY, PEOPLE CANNOT BE PROSECUTED FOR SEEKING AN ABORTION OR FORGIVING AND ABORTION, OR TERMINATING A PREGNANCY.

SECONDLY, SOMETHING I CELEBRATE IS THAT PEOPLE WHO ARE SENT IN OR WERE SENTENCED BECAUSE OF THE CRIMINALIZATION OF ABORTION, THEY MUST NOW BE ABSOLVED.

SO THAT IS TWO REALLY GREAT THINGS OFF THE BAT.

ALSO, MEDICAL PROFESSIONALS AND INDIVIDUALS CANNOT BE PENALIZED, SUSPENDED, LICENSES CANNOT BE REVOKED IF EIGHT DECIDE TO PRACTICE ABORTIONS, BECAUSE THE COURT SAID THAT WOULD BE DISCRIMINATORY.

FINALLY, THIS RULING, SO THIS IS -- THIS IS OUR VERY IMMEDIATE AND WONDERFUL WHAT HAPPENS IMMEDIATELY, AND IT IS GREAT.

BUT THE RULING ALSO REQUIRES CONGRESS, THIS IS WHERE IT GETS A LITTLE STICKIER AND MORE, YOU KNOW, INTO THE FUTURE, IT REQUIRES CONGRESS TO TAKE ALL NORMS CRIMINALIZING ABORTION OUT OF THE PENAL CODE TO FOLLOW THE COURT'S RULING.

AND SO THAT WOULD EVENTUALLY ALSO MEAN THAT THE STATE PENAL CODES HAVE TO BE CHANGED.

BECAUSE THEY HAVE TO FOLLOW THE FEDERAL CODE.

>> IT IS STILL ILLEGAL IN 20 OF THE 32 MEXICAN STATES.

BUT THIS LOT NOW MAKES IT LEGAL TO HAVE AN ABORTION IN A FEDERALLY MANDATED, IN A FEDERAL HOSPITAL.

WILL THIS GO INTO EFFECT IMMEDIATELY?

>> EXACTLY.

WHAT HAPPENED WAS, YES.

S&S CONGRESS IS NOTIFIED, THEY ARE REQUIRED TO TAKE IT OUT OF THE PENAL CODE.

AS SOON AS CONGRESS TAKES IT OUT OF THE FEDERAL PENAL CODE, IT WILL BE EFFECTIVE IMMEDIATELY.

>> THIS FOLLOWS A LARGER TREND, IN TERMS OF LIBERALIZING LAWS ON ABORTION IN THE REGION AS A WHOLE.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ABOUT THIS MOVEMENT JUXTAPOSED WITH WHAT WE ARE SEEING IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE THE SUPREME COURT OVERTURNED ROE V. WADE?

>> I THINK IT IS A REFLECTION OF HOW POLITICS, YOU KNOW, THEY ARE QUITE POLARIZED IN THE REGION.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE THIS BACK AND FORTH BETWEEN, YOU KNOW, PROGRESS, PROGRESSIVE RULINGS AND MOVEMENTS, AND THEN THE BACKLASH OF A VERY CONSERVATIVE RULINGS AND GOVERNMENTS THAT COME INTO POWER.

SO IT IS REALLY A BACK-AND- FORTH.

YOU KNOW, THE PREVIOUS GUEST JUST SPOKE TO IT TOO.

>> YES.

AND WE ARE HEARING IN ABOUT AMERICAN WOMEN ACTUALLY CROSSING THE BORDER DOWN INTO MEXICO FOR ABORTIONS FOLLOWING THE RULING FROM THE SUPREME COURT.

YOU MENTIONED THE PRESIDENT, YOU HAVE A PRESIDENTIAL ELECTION, ANOTHER HISTORIC FIRST.

EITHER WAY, IT ENDS UP WITH A WOMAN LEAVING THE COUNTRY.

TALK ABOUT THESE TWO CANDIDATES.

NOTABLY, BOTH OF THEM SUPPORT DECRIMINALIZING ABORTION.

>> IT IS REALLY INTERESTING.

YOU KNOW, THE NEWS CAME, BASICALLY ON THE SAME DAY.

SO IT WAS JUST, LIKE, OH, WHAT IS GOING ON?

A LOT OF ACTIVITY POLITICALLY SPEAKING.

YES, WE WILL, YOU KNOW, MOST LIKELY WE WILL END UP WITH A WOMAN PRESIDENT, A FIRST FOR MEXICO.

AS A STUDENT YOU HAD ON PREVIOUSLY MENTIONED, AND A HIGHLY MISOGYNISTIC COUNTRY, THIS WILL BE VERY INTERESTING.

AND I WONDER, I THINK WE ARE ALL HOPING THAT THIS WILL MOVE THE COUNTRY FORWARD IN A NEW DIRECTION.

ONE CANDIDATE, CLAUDIA SCHOENBAUM IS THE RULING PARTY CANDIDATE.

NO, I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERN OR, YOU KNOW, PARTIAL EXCITEMENT BUT ALSO CONCERN ON WHETHER SHE WILL TOE THE PARTY LINE UNCERTAINTY AMBIVALENCE REGARDING HUMAN RIGHT.

AND ON THE OTHER HAND, SO THAT IS THE CONCERN THERE AND THE EXCITEMENT THERE.

AND SO ANOTHER CANDIDATE FROM THE PARTY CALLED FAMILY, WHICH HAS BEEN A TRADITIONALLY RIGHT- WING, VERY CONSERVATIVE PARTY, VERY PRO-BUSINESS, ANTI-RIGHTS, ET CETERA.

THERE IS CONCERN THERE.

WILL SHE TOE HER PARTY LINE, WHICH WILL BE ANTI-RIGHTS?

OR WILL SHE ACTUALLY DO, YOU KNOW, AND PUT INTO EFFECT ALL THESE THINGS THAT SHE HAS BEEN CLAIMING TO SAY ON HER CAMPAIGN?

SO THERE IS A BIG QUESTION THERE.

>> BOTH WOMEN, IN THEIR OWN RIGHT PROFESSIONALLY.

ONE IS AN ENGINEER BY TRAINING AND THE OTHER IS AN ENGINEER WHO LIKES TO DO STUNTS LIKE DRESSING UP IN INFLATABLE DINOSAUR COSTUMES.

I THINK WE HAVE A VIDEO OR PICTURE OF THAT AS WELL.

BUT IT DOES APPEAR THAT THE MARINO PARTY IS BACKING -- THERE SHE IS AS IN INFLATABLE DINOSAUR.

IT DOES APPEAR THAT CLAUDIA SHEINBAUM IS THE FAVORITE CANDIDATE HERE.

DO YOU THINK SOME OF THE ISSUES, MUST NOTICE LEGALLY FROM ASIDE, WE HAVE NOTICED DECLINE IN THAT OVERALL, BUT NOT WHEN IT COMES TO VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN.

WILL THIS BE A PRIORITY FOR WOMEN?

>> I THINK IT SHOULD BE, I HOPE IT WILL BE.

NOT JUST AS WOMEN, BUT AS LEADERS, IT SHOULD BE FOR ANY FUTURE PRESIDENT.

IT IS TRULY SOMETHING THAT I THINK IS A HUGE, HUGE PROBLEM FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IN OUR COUNTRY.

AND ALSO, YOU KNOW, DISAPPEARANCES.

I WOULD ADD TO THE NUMBERS OF FEMICIDE, HUGE NUMBER OF DISAPPEARANCES, THAT IS A HUGE CONCERN.

>> WE WILL BE COVERING THIS ELECTION CLOSELY.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANKS FOR THE INVITATION.

>> BACK HERE IN THE U.S., PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES ARE SPENDING HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF DOLLARS A DAY IN GETTING STUDENTS TO FOOT THE BILL.

COLLEGE COSTS HAVE SOARED, OUTPACING THE INFLATION RATE, WHILE THE STUDENT LOAN DEBT IS OVER $1.7 TRILLION.

HIGHER EDUCATION REPORTER AT THE WALL STREET JOURNAL, MELISSA CORN, INVESTIGATED 50 FLAGSHIP UNIVERSITIES.

WALTER ISAACSON IS JOINED TO DISCUSS HER FINDINGS.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THINKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOU HAVE THIS GREAT PIECE TITLED COLLEGES ARE SPENDING LIKE THERE IS NO TOMORROW.

YOU WROTE IT IN THE WALL STREET JOURNAL.

TELL ME EXACTLY WHAT IS HAPPENING.

WHY ARE THEY SPENDING SO MUCH MONEY?

YOU ARE TALKING MAINLY ABOUT PUBLIC AND STATE UNIVERSITIES.

>> RIGHT.

WE FOCUS OUR INVESTIGATION ON 50s LIKE FLAGSHIP UNIVERSITIES.

ONE IN EACH STATE.

THEY ARE GENERALLY NOT THE BEST- KNOWN OR MOST PUBLIC UNIVERSITY IN EACH STATE.

WE WANTED TO SEE WERE ALL OF THAT TUITION MONEY GOES.

AND WHAT OTHER REVENUE THEY ARE BRINGING IN.

SO, WE LOOKED AT, YOU KNOW, ACCOUNTING FOR INFLATION AND ADJUSTING FOR INFLATION, ADJUSTING FOR ENROLLMENT INCREASES, HOW MUCH THESE SCHOOLS WERE REALLY SPENDING.

AND WHERE IT WAS GOING IN TERMS OF CONSTRUCTION, SHINY NEW BUILDINGS, AMENITIES ON CAMPUSES, FACULTY AND STAFF SALARY BENEFITS, IT IS A HUGE PART OF WHERE ALL THOSE DOLLARS GO.

AND THERE WAS A GROWTH IN EVERY DIRECTION.

WE SAW A LOT OF INCREASES IN PROGRAMMING AND HIRING, YOU KNOW, EVERY WHICH WAY.

IT WAS JUST A SPRAWL AT THE UNIVERSITY.

>> ISN'T THIS A GOOD THING?

>> IT COULD BE.

GROWTH IS NOT A BAD THING.

WE THRIVE, WE REWARD AMBITION HERE IN THIS COUNTRY.

RIGHT?

WE LIKE THINGS TO GET BIGGER AND BETTER.

BUT OFTEN TIMES, THAT HAS TO BE DONE IN CONTEXT OF WHAT KIND OF RESOURCES YOU HAVE TO DO THAT WORK.

IF STATE FUNDING IS FALLING, BUT YOUR PLANS CONTINUE TO EXPAND, YOU HAVE TO LOOK SOMEWHERE ELSE FOR THAT MONEY.

WE FOUND THAT THE SCHOOLS WERE GETTING MORE AND MORE IN TUITION REVENUE, MORE THAN OFFSETTING ANY LOSSES THEY HAD IN STATE APPROPRIATIONS.

SO THE ACTUAL TUITION REVENUE WAS NOT JUST FILLING A WHOLE, IT WAS BEING USED THEN TO HAVE THIS EXPANSION, HAVE THIS 10 YEAR GRAND STRATEGIC PLAN OF WANTING TO BECOME THE BEST, NOT JUST IN OUR STATE AND REGION, BUT IN THE WORLD.

>> WHAT JUMPED OUT AT ME IN YOUR PIECE WAS AT THE UNIVERSITY OF KENTUCKY UPGRADED ITS CAMPUS TO THE TUNE OF $805,000 A DAY.

A DAY.

FOR MORE THAN A DECADE.

THAT IS A MOST $1 MILLION A DAY.

WHERE DID ALL OF THAT MONEY GO, AND WHY?

>> RIGHT.

THAT NUMBER, I DEFINITELY DID A DOUBLE TAKE WHEN IT CAME ACROSS THE WEBSITE.

THEY ARE REALLY PROUD OF THIS NUMBER.

THEY ARE INVESTING IN THEIR CAMPUS AND THEIR OPERATION.

SO, IT WENT TO A NEW HOME FOR THE LAW SCHOOL, BUSINESS SCHOOL, SCHOOL OF VISUAL ARTS, AND WENT TO A NEW STUDENT CENTER, UPGRADED FACILITIES.

IT WENT TO INFRASTRUCTURE.

ROADS, UTILITIES, THINGS LIKE THAT.

IT WENT TO A TON OF NEW DORMITORIES, WHICH WERE DONE IN PUBLIC AND PRIVATE PARTNERSHIPS.

SO THAT TAKES A BIT OF THE COST AWAY FROM THE UNIVERSITY ITSELF.

THESE ARE VERY NICE DORMS, WITH GRANITE COUNTERTOPS, AND WASHERS -- IN UNIT LAUNDRY, WHICH I CERTAINLY DID NOT HAVE IN COLLEGE.

THEY ALSO SPENT A LOT OF MONEY ON THEIR HEALTHCARE FACILITIES.

YOU KNOW, THE HEALTHCARE OPERATIONS FUNDED A LOT OF THAT.

THE SCHOOL SAYS THAT ON LESS THAN HALF OF THE COST OF THIS WAS PAID FOR BY UNIVERSITY FUNDS.

HOWEVER, THEY ALSO DETAIL THAT ANOTHER 20% WAS COVERED BY BOND.

THEY TOOK OUT DEBT.

UNIVERSITY PAYS THAT DEBT.

AND THAT THAT IS, IN SOME CASES, COVERED BY TUITION DOLLARS.

ULTIMATELY, IT ALL STILL COMES BACK.

NOT ALL, BUT A HUGE PORTION OF IT STILL COMES BACK TO THE STUDENTS BEING ON THE HOOK FOR THESE SORT OF THINGS.

THE SCHOOL SAID THEY DID IT BECAUSE THEY WANTED TO PROVIDE STUDENTS WITH AN ENVIRONMENT TO WHICH THEY HAD BECOME ACCUSTOMED THAT THEY ARE EXPECTING.

YOU KNOW, THESE DORMS ARE WHAT FAMILIES EXPECT.

THEY NEEDED TO BE COMPETING WITH OTHER UNIVERSITIES PUBLIC AND PRIVATE.

AND THIS IS THE WAY TO DO IT.

>> KENTUCKY IS ONE OF THE POOREST STATES IN THE COUNTRY.

20% OF KIDS LIVE HELLO THE POVERTY LINE.

HOW DOES THIS AFFECT STUDENTS?

>> YES.

KENTUCKY IS, AS YOU SAID, ONE OF THE MORE POOR STATES IN THE COUNTRY.

YEAH.

THERE COSTS FOR STUDENT TO ATTEND THE FLAGSHIP UNIVERSITY ARE IN THE TOP HALF OF ALL FLAGSHIPS.

THIS IS AN EXPENSIVE SCHOOL TO GO TO.

EVEN FOR IN-STATE STUDENTS.

EVEN AFTER THEY GET SCHOLARSHIPS, THEY ARE ON THE HOOK FOR UPWARDS OF $18,000 A YEAR.

AND THE SCHOOL DOES PROVIDE A LOT OF FINANCIAL AID, BUT THAT INCREASE IN AID HAS NOT KEPT UP NECESSARILY WITH THE INCREASE IN STICKER PRICE.

SO, ATTENDING KENTUCKY AS A KENTUCKY STUDENT IS NOW REALLY OUT OF REACH FOR A LOT OF STUDENTS AT THIS POINT.

>> I ONCE WROTE A BOOK ABOUT THE WOMEN WHO DID THE COMPUTER IN WORLD WAR II.

AND ONE OF THEM WENT TO NORTHWEST MISSOURI COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND SHE STUDIED MATH, AND SHE DID IT FOR $76.

NOW A SCHOOL LIKE THAT IS $14,000, AND PEOPLE, WE WILL NOT GET, YOU KNOW, PEOPLE FROM SMALL TOWNS SHE WAS FROM AN ATLANTA SUBURBAN MISSOURI.

THEY COULD BECOME GREAT CONTRIBUTORS IN THE ECONOMY.

IS THAT WHAT YOU ARE DRIVING AT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

WE WANT TO FOCUS ON PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES.

PRIVATE SCHOOLS, IT IS GREAT IF IT IS AFFORDABLE, BUT THAT IS NOT PART OF THE MISSION.

THEY CAN CHARGE WHATEVER THEY WANT AN APPEAL TO WHICHEVER STUDENTS THEY WANT.

BUT PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES, YOU KNOW, THERE CORE IS TO EDUCATE LOCAL RESIDENTS.

AND IF THEY ARE CHASING AFTER STUDENTS FROM OUT OF STATE, IF THEY ARE CHASING AFTER HIGH- PROFILE AND HIGH-PRICED FACULTY AND ADMINISTRATORS, AND LAZY RIVERS AND ALL THOSE OTHER AMENITIES THAT WE LIKE TO MAKE FUN OF THEY ARE LOSING AND SOMETHING IN THE PROCESS.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT AMENITIES LIKE GREAT DORMITORIES AND CLIMBING WALLS, THAT SORT OF THING.

IS THAT DRIVING THE COST?

IS THAT THE MAIN DRIVER HERE?

>> THAT IS NOT THE MAIN DRIVER.

I THINK WE CAN SAY IT IS A DRIVER.

IT IS A SYMPTOM OF THE ISSUE HERE.

SCHOOLS ARE BUILDING THESE BEAUTIFUL, STUNNING EMPHASIS.

I WOULD LIKE TO GO ON VACATION AT SOME OF THESE PLACES.

THEY ARE BUILDING THESE GREAT CAMPUSES TO APPEAL TO STUDENTS FROM OUT OF STATE OR FULL PAYING STUDENTS WHO DO NOT NECESSARILY NEED FINANCIAL AID WHO ARE FROM WITHIN THE STATE.

SO THEY ARE CHASING AFTER THESE WEALTHIER STUDENTS, WHO THEY THINK HAVE A HIGHER EXPECTATION OF QUALITY OF LIFE AND ALL THE BELLS AND WHISTLES OF COLLEGE, THE COLLEGE EXPERIENCE.

BUT THEY ARE PUTTING THAT BILL ON EVERYBODY, INCLUDING STUDENTS WHO MAYBE DO NOT CARE AS MUCH ABOUT THOSE SORTS OF THINGS.

>> SO TELL ME, WHAT IS REALLY DRIVING THIS?

IT'S GOT TO BE A REASON THAT THEY HAVE ALL THIS MONEY COMING IN.

>> WELL, THEY HAVE ALL THIS MONEY COMING IN BECAUSE THEY HAVE CHOSEN TO HAVE ALL THIS MONEY COMING IN.

THEY ARE FUNDRAISING LIKE MAD, THEY ARE RAISING TUITION, INCREASING ENROLLMENT, AND THOSE TWO THINGS COMBINED INCREASE THEIR TUITION REVENUE.

THEY ARE TAKING IN MORE OUT OF SCHOOL STUDENTS THAT TEND TO PAY MORE THAN IN-STATE STUDENTS.

THEY ARE BRINGING MONEY IN EVERY WHICH WAY THEY CAN TO FUEL THIS AMBITION AND THIS GROWTH, THIS, WE WANT TO BE THE BEST.

IT IS A VERY COMPETITIVE ENVIRONMENT.

>> THE MARKET IS KIND OF INSPIRING, ISN'T IT?

>> IT COULD BE.

IT DEPENDS ON WHO IS PAYING THE BILL FOR IT THOUGH.

>> WELL, WHO IS PAYING THE BILL?

>> STUDENTS AND TAXPAYERS.

RIGHT?

STUDENTS ARE BORROWING, THEIR FAMILIES ARE BORROWING, THEY ARE TAKING ON STUDENT DEBT TO ATTEND THESE SCHOOLS.

AND AS WE SEE THIS MASSIVE, YOU KNOW, STUDENT LOAN CRISIS NATIONWIDE, WE ARE SEEING THIS PLAY OUT TO A PRETTY DANGEROUS AND.

>> YOU THINK THE REAL PROBLEM HERE IS THAT WE HAVE A STUDENT LOAN CRISIS THAT HAS BEEN CAUSED BY THIS, BECAUSE THE STUDENTS HAVE TO PAY SO MUCH TO GET ALL THESE NEW AMENITIES?

AND NOW THE SUPREME COURT SAID THAT THE BIDEN PROGRAM CANNOT GO THROUGH.

IS THAT AT THE CORE OF THE PROBLEM YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT?

>> I THINK THAT IS A BIG PART OF THE PROBLEM.

THE CORE IS ULTIMATELY, WHAT DO THESE SCHOOLS WANT TO BE?

AND WHO ARE THEY GOING AFTER?

AND WHY?

RIGHT?

ARE THEY BEING TRUE TO THAT MISSION OF EDUCATING LOCAL STUDENTS IN AN ACCESSIBLE WAY AS AFFORDABLY AS POSSIBLE?

OR ARE THEY TRYING TO COMPETE WITH PRIVATE UNIVERSITIES FROM ACROSS THE COUNTRY WHO HAVE A DIFFERENT MISSION?

I THINK THERE IS THIS BIT OF AN IDENTITY CRISIS IN HIGHER EDUCATION IN PUBLIC HIGHER EDUCATION RIGHT NOW, AS SOME OF THESE FLAGSHIPS, IN PARTICULAR, TRY TO CHASE AFTER THE SAME STUDENTS, THE SAME DONORS, THE SAME FACULTY.

AND IN SOME CASES, THEY ARE LOSING SIGHT OF WHO THEY WERE MEANT TO BE.

>> WHAT SHOULD THEY BE CUTTING BACK ON?

>> THAT IS A TOUGH QUESTION.

I DO NOT KNOW THAT THERE IS ONE ANSWER FOR EVERY SCHOOL.

IT REALLY DEPENDS ON THE INSTITUTION, WHAT THEIR OWN FINANCES ARE AND HOW FAR BEYOND THEIR MEANS THEY HAVE BEEN SPENDING.

SO WE HAD SOME SCHOOLS IN PRETTY DIRE FINANCIAL SITUATIONS RIGHT NOW FACING MASSIVE MULTIMILLION DOLLAR, $100 MILLION DEFICITS, BECAUSE THEY SPEND MORE THAN THEY HAD AND THEY HAD OUTSIZED ROADIES -- ROSIE FORECASTS.

THEY NEED TO MAKE SOME PRETTY TOUGH DECISIONS.

YOU KNOW, PRETTY BRUTAL CUTS.

WHETHER THAT MEANS YOU ELIMINATE ENTIRE DEPARTMENTS OR TRIM THE FACULTY ACROSS THE BOARD, OR YOU RETHINK, YOU KNOW, WHAT IS BRINGING IN MONEY, WHAT NEEDS TO BE BRINGING IN MONEY?

IT REALLY VARIES BY SCHOOL.

I WOULD SAY THAT THE FIRST STEP FOR A LOT OF THESE SCHOOLS IS GETTING A HANDLE ON THEIR BUDGET AND FIGURING OUT WHERE THEY ARE SPENDING THEIR MONEY.

BECAUSE I THINK ONE OF THE MOST SHOCKING THINGS FROM OUR REPORTING WAS HOW LITTLE ADMINISTRATORS AND TRUSTEES KNOW ABOUT THEIR OWN BUDGETS.

>> LET ME TAKE AN EXAMPLE OF THE BUDGET, WHICH WAS NOT FOR BUILDINGS AND GRAND PROGRAMS.

BUT SOME PEOPLE TALK ABOUT A LOT NOW, THE INCREASE IN ADMINISTRATORS.

THE UNIVERSITY OF FLORIDA HAD MORE THAN 50 EMPLOYEES WITH TITLES OF DIRECTOR, ASSOCIATE DIRECTOR, DEAN'S OF THIS AND THAT.

THIS IS FROM YOUR ARTICLE, OF COURSE.

AND MORE THAN 160 DEAN'S DOING VARIOUS THINGS LIKE DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION, MENTAL HEALTH.

IS THAT PART OF THE PROBLEM?

OR IS THAT A GOOD THING HAPPENING?

>> I THINK THE EXPECTATION OF WHAT A UNIVERSITY PROVIDES HAS CHANGED A LOT OVERTIMES.

EVEN SINCE I WAS IN COLLEGE IN THE EARLY 2000, RIGHT, IT IS NOT JUST YOU GO AND SIT IN A PLANE ROOM AND YOU STUDY, AND YOU WORK IN YOUR TYPEWRITER.

RIGHT?

THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF HIGH- SPEED INTERNET, IN SOME CASES, AIR CONDITIONING AMMA WHICH, YOU KNOW, I CERTAINLY DO NOT HAVE AND WOULD HAVE LOVED.

THERE IS AN EXPECTATION OF PROVIDING SUPPORT FOR STUDENTS, BOTH IN TERMS OF ACADEMICS AND IN TERMS OF HEALTH.

AND THAT INCLUDES MENTAL HEALTH.

WHERE I THINK YOU START TO HAVE SOME QUESTION MARKS IS WHEN IS IT ENOUGH?

WHEN IS IT CODDLING VERSUS SUPPORTING?

YOU KNOW?

WHAT IS NECESSARY?

>> LET'S TAKE A SPECIFIC EXAMPLE.

LOTS OF NEW DEAN'S OF DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION.

THAT IS REALLY NOT NECESSARY?

>> I THINK THE STUDENT POPULATION HAS BECOME A LOT MORE DIVERSE AND THEY ARE PREPARING FOR A WORKPLACE AND A WORLD THAT IS MORE DIVERSE.

SO, MAKING SURE THEY ARE PREPARED FOR THAT IS A REALLY IMPORTANT THING.

THE MECHANIC MENTAL HEALTH IS NECESSARY OR UNNECESSARY?

>> I HAVE WRITTEN ABOUT SCHOOLS TRYING REALLY HARD TO PROVIDE LOW-COST MENTAL HEALTH SUPPORT SERVICES.

THEY ARE REALLY STRUGGLING WITH THIS.

STUDENTS, THERE IS A MAJOR MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS GOING ON IN HIGH SCHOOLS, AT COLLEGES, AND THE PANDEMIC ONLY EXACERBATED THAT.

SO, SPENDING MONEY AND MAKING SURE YOUR STUDENTS ARE PHYSICALLY AND MENTALLY HEALTHY ENOUGH TO PURSUE THEIR STUDIES, THAT MAKES SENSE TO ME.

I'M ALSO NOT THE ONE WRITING THE CHECKS THOUGH.

>> ONE OF THE DRIVERS OF COSTS, I'M TALK ABOUT LSU AND SOME OTHER PLACES DOWN HERE, OF COURSE, SPORTS.

NOT ONLY FOOTBALL, BUT ALL THE TEAM SPORTS.

I HAVE ALWAYS BEEN SOMEWHAT CONFUSED, YOUR ARTICLE SORT OF DELVES INTO IT.

ARE THESE THINGS THAT HELP THE UNIVERSITY RAISE MONEY, OR ARE THESE THINGS THAT COST STUDENTS MORE FEES?

>> SO, VERY FEW DIVISION I ATHLETIC PROGRAMS MAKE MONEY FOR THEIR SCHOOLS.

VERY, VERY FEW.

THEY ARE CONSIDERED AUXILIARY ENTERPRISES.

THEY ARE SUPPOSED TO BE SELF- SUSTAINING, BUT THEY ALMOST NEVER ARE.

THERE IS REALLY JUST A COUPLE THAT THE ATHLETIC OPERATION FLICKS MONEY BACK TO THE ACADEMIC SIDE.

RATHER, FOR MOST OF THESE, THE UNIVERSITY ITSELF PROVIDES ANIMAL SUBSIDIES TO THE ATHLETIC PROGRAM, AND STUDENTS OFTEN PAY FEES THAT ARE TARGETED DIRECTLY FOR ATHLETIC PROGRAMS, SO IT CAN BE, YOU KNOW, TO THE TUNE OF $50 MILLION A YEAR THAT THE UNIVERSITY IS PAYING TO HELP SUPPORT THEIR ATHLETIC PROGRAM.

NOW, IT CAN BE A MONEY PIT, OR IT COULD, AS SOME SCHOOLS SAY IN DEFENSE OF THIS, IT IS THE FRONT PORCH OF THE UNIVERSITY.

IT IS THE WAY THAT THE WORLD LEARNS ABOUT THEIR SCHOOL, IT IS GOOD FOR MORALE, ENGAGEMENT, AND ALL SORTS OF THINGS.

A LOT OF THAT MAY BE TRUE, BUT IT COMES AT A VERY HIGH PRICE.

>> WE JUST HAD DREW FAUST ON THIS SHOW, FORMER PRESIDENT OF HARVARD UNIVERSITY.

AND SHE WAS TALKING ABOUT PUBLIC UNIVERSITIES, NOT JUST PRIVATE ONES.

AND SHE SAID THERE HAS BEEN A MAJOR SHIFT IN THIS COUNTRY IN BELIEVING THAT HIGHER EDUCATION IS A PUBLIC GOOD, THAT WE SHOULD ALL SUPPORT OF TAXPAYERS, EVEN IF OUR KIDS ARE NOT GOING INTO HIGHER EDUCATION, VERSUS BEING JUST AN INDIVIDUAL GOOD THAT THE INDIVIDUAL GOOD SHOULD PAY FOR HIM OR HERSELF.

DO YOU SEE THAT SHIFT?

AND DO YOU EVEN WORRY THAT STORIES LIKE THIS MIGHT PROMOTE THAT SHIFT?

SO THAT PEOPLE WOULD SAY, WELL, THAT IS RIDICULOUS, SPENDING THIS MUCH.

IT IS NOT A PUBLIC GOOD, WE DON'T CARE IF THE REST OF THE POPULATION GETS EDUCATED AS WELL.

>> YOU KNOW, MY COLLEAGUES AND I DID THINK AS WE WERE WORKING ON THIS STORY, YOU KNOW, WHAT IMPACT IT COULD HAVE ON STATE LEGISLATORS, THE HOLDERS OF THE FIRST STRINGS.

STATE FUNDING HAS ALREADY DEPLOYED, MAYBE THIS'LL MAKE THEM MORE LIKELY TO CUT FURTHER AND THEY YOU GUYS ARE WASTING OUR MONEY.

BUT THERE IS ALSO AN ACCOUNTABILITY ELEMENT, RIGHT?

IF A STATE CONTINUES TO PROVIDE FUNDING, THEY MAY BE ABLE TO HAVE SOME OVERSIGHT OF WHERE THAT MONEY GOES.

AND WE STARTED TO SEE IN THE PAST FEW YEARS, SOME STATES OFFER TO PROVIDE MORE FUNDING TO THEIR UNIVERSITIES AND PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS BUT THEY SAY, WE WILL GIVE YOU THIS ONLY IF YOU HOLD TUITION FLAT OR YOU INVEST IN THIS PARTICULAR AREA.

SO, YOU KNOW, SOME OF THAT INVESTMENT CAN COME WITH AN OVERSIGHT RESPONSIBILITY AND AN OPPORTUNITY THERE TO HELP SHAPE WHAT KIND OF SCHOOLS THESE BECOME.

>> THAT SOUNDS BOTH GOOD AND MAY BE BAD?

DO I WANT THE STATE LEGISLATURE HERE TO BE TELLING THE CHANCELLORS OF THE UNIVERSITY, HERE IS THE WAY YOU SHOULD DO HIGHER EDUCATION?

>> PRESUMABLY, THERE IS SOME SORT OF CONVERSATION GOING ON AND IT IS NOT UNILATERAL, YOU SHALL PUT MONEY HERE.

BUT IF THE STATE IS PUTTING MONEY TOWARDS IT, PRESUMABLY THE STATE HAS A SAY IN WHERE IT GOES, TO SOME EXTENT.

THE BOARD OF GOVERNORS AND THE BOARD OF TRUSTEES ALSO HAS AN OVERSIGHT RESPONSIBILITY HERE.

THEY ARE FIDUCIARIES OF THE UNIVERSITY.

THEY SHOULD BE KEEPING A VERY CLOSE EYE ON WHERE THIS MONEY IS GOING AND WHERE IT SHOULD BE GOING.

>> TELL ME.

WHEN YOU DID THIS PIECE, YOU HELPED THE TRANSPARENCY OF ALL OF THIS.

IS THAT THE SOLUTION WE REALLY SHOULD BE LOOKING FOR?

WE ALL NEED TO UNDERSTAND WHERE THESE SELLERS ARE GOING AND WHY.

>> IS A HUGE PART.

MY COLLEAGUES AND I HOPE TO RELY ON FEDERAL DATA OUT THERE REGARDING UNIVERSITY SPENDING.

IT JUST WAS NOT RICH ENOUGH OR RELIABLE ENOUGH, AND THIS IS INFORMATION THAT IS THROUGH TO THE DEPARTMENT OF EDUCATION.

SO WE WENT AND COLLECTED THESE NUMBERS OURSELVES, LOOKING BACK 20 YEARS, WE PULLED AUDITED FINANCIAL REPORTS WERE 50 SCHOOLS.

THAT WAS A TON OF MANUAL LABOR, A TON OF DATA ENTRY.

AFTER THE STORY PUBLISHED, I THINK WE WERE SHOCKED TO SEE MESSAGES FROM CURRENT AND FORMER TRUSTEES OF FLAGSHIPS FROM STATE LEGISLATORS, LEADERS OF HIGHER EDUCATION IN VARIOUS STATES SAYING, HEY, DO YOU HAVE THE NUMBERS ON OUR SCHOOL TOO?

WE ARE CURIOUS WHAT THEY SAY.

WE SEE A TRUSTEE OF A FLAGSHIPS THING, I DO NOT KNOW WHERE MY SCHOOLS MONEY GOES, OH, I SHOULD PROBABLY LOOK INTO THAT.

IT SUGGESTED THAT TRANSPARENCY IN INFORMATION COULD BE A GOOD FIRST STEP HERE.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH AND THANKS FOR YOUR STORY.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> REALLY IMPORTANT WORDS THERE ON THE TRANSPARENCY NEEDED WHEN IT COMES TO UNIVERSITY SPENDING.

>>> OUR NEXT GUEST ARE CREDITED WITH SOME TRACKING THE AMERICAN CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENTS.

THE BLIND BOYS OF ALABAMA HAVE PERFORMED FOR THREE U.S. PRESIDENTS AND HAVE BEEN SPREADING LOVE, AS THEY CALL IT, FOR MORE THAN EIGHT DECADES, IF YOU CAN BELIEVE IT.

BUT THEY ARE SHOWING NO SIGNS OF STOPPING.

THEIR NEW ALBUM, A QUOTE ECHOES OF THE SOUTH" IS OUT NOW.

I SPOKE WITH JIMMY CARTER AND RICKY McKINNEY ABOUT IT EARLIER.

>>> JIMMY CARTER AND RICHARD McKINNEY, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, CONGRATULATIONS ON YET ANOTHER ALBUM.

I JUST HAVE TO ASK YOU, JIMMY, AFTER EIGHT DECADES, THE BLIND BOYS OF ALABAMA STILL GOING STRONG, BACK WITH ANOTHER ALBUM.

WHERE DID YOU GET THE INSPIRATION FOR THIS ONE?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, INSPIRATION.

WELL, LET ME PUT IT THIS WAY.

WE LOVE WHAT WE DO.

AND WHEN YOU LOVE WHAT YOU DO, THAT GIVES YOU MOTIVATION TO CONTINUE.THE TITLE OF THE ALBUM, "ECHOES OF THE SOUTH" DERIVED FROM A RADIO SHOW WHERE YOUR GROUP FIRST PERFORMED IN BIRMINGHAM, ALABAMA, ON JUNE 10th OF 1944.

AND I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE SIGNIFICANCE OF ALABAMA AND THE ORIGINS OF YOUR BAND.

NOT ONLY IN THE NAME, BUT HOW IT HAS HELPED YOU MUSICALLY THROUGHOUT YOUR CAREER IN JUST A MOMENT.

BUT LET'S PLAY FROM SOME OF THIS ALBUM HERE.

THE NEW SINGLE IS WORKING UNTIL MY DAYS ARE DONE.

LET'S LISTEN TO IT.

♪ RICKY, WHAT DOES THE SONG MEAN TO YOU?

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, THE BLIND BOYS HAVE BEEN SINGING FOR A LONG TIME.

PEOPLE DON'T KNOW WHAT WE WERE DOING UNTIL WE CAME TO ALABAMA.FOR VIEWERS AT HOME WHO DO NOT KNOW THE BEXAR IS IN ORIGINS OF THIS BAND, TAKE US BACK TO THE 1930s WHEN IT ALL CAME TOGETHER.

>> OKAY.

IN ALABAMA, WE WENT TO A SCHOOL FOR THE BLIND.

IN WE WERE IN A TOWN CALLED TALLADEGA.

THIS WAS FUNDED BY THE STATE OF ALABAMA.

EVERY BLIND CHILD GOT AN EDUCATION AND CAME TO THAT SCHOOL.

SO, THAT IS HOW WE GOT TOGETHER AND HOW WE STARTED, HOW WE MET UP AND STARTED SINGING TOGETHER.

WE HAD A PROGRAM IN BUNNY HILL AT THAT TIME CALLED ECHO SOUTH.

AND IT HAD A QUARTET THAT I IDOLIZED.

THEY WERE ALREADY ON THE ROAD.

SO WE DECIDED -- WE GOT TO GO AND BE A QUARTET.

SO WE THAT WE COULD MAKE A LIVING OUT OF IT.

WE COULD DO THE SAME THING.

SO THAT IS HOW THE BLIND BOYS STARTED.

NOW, HOWEVER, WHEN THE BLIND BOYS STARTED OUT, THEY WERE NOT KNOWN AS THE BLIND BOYS.

WE WENT BY AND CALLED THE HAPPY LAND JUBILEE SINGERS.

HOW THE BLIND BOYS NAME CAME ABOUT IS A LATER STORY.

THE BLIND BOYS AS A GROUP WE HAVE COME TO LOVE INTEREST FOR ALL THESE DECADES.

UNFORTUNATELY, YOU HAVE LOST TWO OF YOUR BAND MEMBERS OVER THE YEARS.

PAUL BEALE BEASLEY DIED IN MARCH OF THIS YEAR AND BENJAMIN CORD DIED IN 2022 PAIR THEY RECORDED ON THIS NEW ALBUM.

IT REALLY IS A DEDICATION TO THEM AS WELL.

LET'S PLAY A CLIP FROM YOUR LAST PERFORMANCE WITH PAUL BEASLEY, JUST FROM A FEW MONTHS AGO ON THE VIEW.

>>> I WOULD IMAGINE IT IS A BIT BITTERSWEET TO NOT HAVE PAUL AND BENJAMIN WITH YOU HERE TO CELEBRATE THE RELEASE OF THIS ALBUM.

>> IT WAS A DEVASTATING LOSS.

YOU KNOW, I AM TRYING TO GO ON.

>> RICKY, YOUR THOUGHTS?

>> MY THOUGHTS ARE LIKE THIS.

WE STARTED SINGING IN A NUMBER GROUP TOGETHER, I WAS ABOUT 20 YEARS OLD.

IT MAY SEEM REAL SOME KIND OF WAY TO MISS THAT VOICE.

HIS VOICE WAS OFTEN IMITATED BUT NEVER DUPLICATED.

BUT JUST TO KNOW THAT --.

BENJAMIN MOORE BECAME A FRIEND OF MINE.

BUT I AM JUST GLAD I GOT THE OPPORTUNITY TO SAY I GOT TO MEET AND RECORD.

>> MADE THOSE MEMORIES BE A BLESSING.

IT MAY SURPRISE AND VIEWERS TO KNOW THIS IS THE FIRST ALBUM THAT WAS FULLY RECORDED IN ALABAMA.

DESPITE THE NAME OF YOUR BAND, THIS IS A FIRST FOR YOU.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR YOU?

>> IT IS GOOD TO BE ABLE TO GO BACK, ALABAMA IS WHERE IT STARTED.

IT IS ONE OF THE PLACES WHERE EVERYBODY REALLY BECAME SOMEBODY.

A LACK LINED GOSPEL GROUP.

AND TO GO BACK TO WHERE THE GROUP FIRST GOT STARTED ON TALLADEGA, WHERE THE BLIND BOYS REALLY ARE FROM.

IT MAKES ME FEEL GOOD TO KNOW THAT PEOPLE STILL CAN APPRECIATE THE BLIND BOYS OF ALABAMA IN ALABAMA.

>> I JUST WANT TO SAY THIS TOO, THE ALBUM IS GREAT.

BUT IN MARCH OF NEXT YEAR, WE WILL HAVE TO TELL THE STORY ABOUT IT NOW.

IT WILL BE CALLED "SPIRIT OF THE CENTURY" THERE ARE A LOT OF THINGS I WANT TO DO WITH THE BLIND BOYS.

WE ARE STILL SINGING.

WE ARE NOT LOOKING AT NOTHING.

JIMMY IS NOT DEAD.

KNOWING HE IS STILL AROUND MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

BUT IT IS GOOD TO BE ABLE TO COME AND LET YOU KNOW THAT WE APPRECIATE YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING US HERE.

BECAUSE WITHOUT PEOPLE, WE WOULD NOT BE DOING WHAT WE ARE DOING.

BUT THE MAIN THING I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW IS THAT THE BLIND BOYS WERE ONE OF THE BEST SINGING GROUPS.

THE BLIND BOYS ARE A SINGING GROUP.

WE STARTED OUT, LIKE WE SAID, WITH JUST A GUITAR PLAYER.

WE ARE STILL SINGING.

WE TALK ABOUT A TIME, WHENEVER YOU HEAR "BLIND BOYS" YOU KNOW YOU WILL HAVE A GOOD TIME.

DO NOT MISS IT WHEN THE BOYS ARE BACK IN TOWN.THE BLIND BOYS OF ALABAMA ARE NOT GOING ANYWHERE.

AS YOU NOTED, A BOOK IS COMING OUT, A SHORT DOCUMENTARY IS RELEASED ABOUT THE BAND AS WELL.

SO MUCH TO CELEBRATE, INCLUDING THE RELEASE OF THIS NEW ALBUM.

JIMMY, BEST OF LUCK TO YOU.

WE WILL STAY IN TOUCH.

THANK YOU FOR ALL THESE YEARS OF MAKING US SO HAPPY LISTEN TO YOUR MUSIC.

WE APPRECIATE IT.

THE MAC THANK YOU SO MUCH, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

IN 91 YEARS YOUNG, JIMMY CARTER SAYS IT WILL BE HIS LAST YEAR WITH THE BAND.

>>> COCO GAUFF WILL PLAY A TOURNAMENT AFTER BEACHING THE RUSSIAN PLAYER INTO SETS.

ONE PROCESSOR GLUING HIS FEET TO THE FLOOR MINUTES DEPOSIT FOR 15 MINUTES.

THE PLAY FINALLY RESUMED.

19-YEAR-OLD COCO GAUFF BECAME THE YOUNGEST AMERICAN WOMAN TO REACH HER HOME GRAND SLAM FINAL SINCE SERENA WILLIAMS IN 1999.

FANTASTIC.

GO, COCO GAUFF, GO!

>>> CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR SPOKE TO SERENA WILLIAMS.

THE SISTERS SPOKE OF THE CHALLENGES THAT WOMEN AND AFRICAN-AMERICANS HAVE OVER CALMED AND STILL FACE IN THE SPORT.

LET'S HAVE A LISTEN.

>> HOW DID YOU DO IT?

HOW DID YOU, IN FACT, HOW DID YOU, 50 YEARS AGO WHEN THIS WAS NOT A WALK IN THE PARK, YOU DID NOT GET GIVEN TO YOU, THERE WAS NO DIVERSITY, EQUITY, INCLUSION, THE REST OF IT.

HOW DID YOU NEGOTIATE AND LEVERAGE YOUR STATUS TO INFORM THE U.S. OPEN THAT THEY NEEDED TO DO THIS?

>> WE HAD OUR FIRST TOUR.

IN 1972, I WON THE U.S. OPEN AND I WON $10,000.

AND NEST THE WON $25,000.

I'M NOT HAPPY.

WE HAD SO MUCH STUPID WE HAD OUR TOUR, SO MUCH TO DO.

ANYWAY.

1972 AT THE MEDIA CONFERENCE, I AM SITTING THERE INTERNALLY THINKING, I AM HAVING A HARD TIME WITH THIS.

AND I FINALLY SAID TO THEM, YOU KNOW, WE ARE NOT COMING BACK NEXT YEAR UNTIL WE ARE GETTING CO-PRIZE MONEY.

INTERNALLY, I AM SAYING, WHAT HAVE I DONE?

>> THE JOB IS NEVER DONE, BUT ARE YOU PLEASED WITH HOW MANY AFRICAN-AMERICANS ARE IN TENNIS?

ARE THERE MORE?

SHOULD THERE BE MORE?

WHAT DO YOU SEE AS THAT PATH RIGHT NOW?

>> THERE ARE A LOT OF AFRICAN- AMERICANS, BOYS AND GIRLS, PLAYING AT THE GRASSROOTS LEVEL IN COLLEGE LEVEL.

OBVIOUSLY, THERE ARE ONLY SO MANY PEOPLE'S MAKING IT TO PROSE.

THERE ARE NOT MANY.

OUT OF ALL THE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE THAT WOULD LOVE TO LAY PRO, IT IS WONDERFUL TO SEE THAT WOMEN ARE MAKING THEIR LIVES BETTER THROUGH SPORT.

AND THAT TRANSCENDS COLOR.

TWO, MAKE IT THREE INSPIRING WOMEN, THAT INCLUDES CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR PYRTEK IS A PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT IS COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" ON PBS.