- Most of us are used to shopping in stores where one section is devoted to fresh produce but the rest of the food for sale is either boxed, canned, or shrink wrapped.

Today's guest is an urban farmer and food advocate teaching the world about the benefits of growing our own food and eating fresh fruits and vegetables, whether they're grown on a community farm or in our own backyards.

She's Jamila Norman, this week on "Story in the Public Square."

(bright music) (bright music continues) Hello, and welcome to "Story in the Public Square," where storytelling meets public affairs.

I'm Jim Ludes from the Pell Center at Salve Regina University.

- And I'm G. Wayne Miller, also at Salve's Pell Center.

- This week, we're joined by Jamila Norman, an urban farmer, food activist, and host of "Homegrown" on the Magnolia Network.

She joins us today from Atlanta.

Jamila, thank you so much for being with us.

- Yeah, good morning, guys.

Thanks for having me.

- Well, we were chatting before we started, and we are just huge fans of your work, and we wanna talk about "Homegrown," but I wanna start talking about urban farming.

For an audience that may or may not be familiar with it, what is urban farming?

- Yeah, urban farming is just growing within, you know, a city landscape.

So whether it's right here, I'm in the City of Atlanta, or even in the suburbs, it's just, it's not rural, it's right in the city where you're growing.

- How widespread is this?

I'm thinking about, you know, there's a phenomena with food deserts, that is a problem in a lot of places across the United States.

How common is urban farming?

- I think it's pretty common.

I mean, you'll find people growing food on small lots, on rooftops, in a lot of metro cities, New York, California, in LA, you know, Chicago, Detroit.

So it's definitely something that people have taken on themselves, and just really are trying to solve some of their own issues around food and food access in their own communities.

- So you mentioned many other cities besides Atlanta.

So clearly you do not need, you know, the warmer climate of an Atlanta to be an urban farmer.

Do I have that correct?

I mean, you could do this in Buffalo, for example, or you could do this in parts of Minnesota.

- Yeah, absolutely.

Yeah, people farm all over the country.

I mean, what differentiates farming in Atlanta, whether it's urban or rural, from, say, a northern or Midwestern city is just how long your season is.

So Atlanta, we pretty much are able to farm year round.

When you go up to Vermont, some of the colder areas, you might only have six months where you can really farm, you know, when the weather's good.

So it just depends on your region and how much time you have to actually grow something.

But it can happen all over the nation.

- Yeah, Jim and I were talking before we began taping about victory gardens, which began after World War II, hence the name victory gardens, and they were urban farms, essentially.

So the current movement, does it trace its roots to victory gardens, or does it go back even further than that?

- Yeah, I mean, I think definitely victory gardens helped to sort of inspire the movement.

The difference between...

I'd say a victory garden generally is for an individual home or for a family, and an urban farm is, we're operating as independent businesses.

We're serving the market, we're selling produce, we're going to... You know, so we're operating as a business.

So it's kind of like taking that victory garden idea, and then, you know, pushing it into a business enterprise, where we're serving more than just our families, but, like, the larger community.

- So Jamila, how did you get into farming in general and urban farming in particular?

- Well, you know, my family is from the Caribbeans, and I've always been interested in sort of nature, the outdoors.

I always had a vision of, I'm gonna have my own homestead one day, and live off the land.

But you know, we found ourself in Atlanta, and I sort of found my way there.

I was an engineer for 10 years with the state, in environmental engineering, working on water, wastewater stuff.

And the community that I moved to in Atlanta, Southwest Atlanta, just really had some food access issues.

I mean, there's a lot of fast food, there's a lot of corner stores, but there just wasn't a lot of good food.

So I started really with a group of people in the neighborhood, and we were like, "Okay, we're gonna just grow some food for our families.

And then it's kinda like, I got the bug, you know, I caught the urban farming bug, and it just transformed into, you know, my own independent business enterprise.

- So you began Patchwork City Farms, and that's the farm that you have now.

Tell us about the history of that, and what you do today.

A fascinating story.

- Yeah, so- (laughs) Thanks.

Yeah, Patchwork City Farms started in 2010.

I was working full time as an engineer.

I was raising my three boys, that were, you know, in the public school system.

And I started with a friend of mine in the neighborhood, and we, the idea was that we didn't, we thought we were just gonna have smaller lots, and so we were gonna be operating on multiple lots in the city, transforming those vacant lots into farms, right?

So that was the idea of Patchwork.

Fast forward till now, I actually have an acre and a half that I purchased five minutes from my house, right in the city of Atlanta, and I operate the farm there.

And we are growing year round, literally 80 different types of fruits of veggies, herbs.

I sell at a local farmer's market, we sell to chefs, we do food donations to a, in partnership with a local nonprofit, and then we also sell online, and people come along to the farm and pick up produce.

So it's just really grown.

I have one additional patch that's around the corner, so it's still a Patchwork, but it's an additional half acre.

So altogether, it's like two acres that I'm farming on.

- So pardon the pun.

Give us a flavor of what you grow there.

You grow vegetables, you grow flowers.

Give us some of the selections.

If we were to come down and visit, we would see what?

And we would want- - I mean, like right now- We'd wanna buy it all.

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Like, right now, you know, it's springtime, so we have, like, all the leafy greens, spinach and multiple types of lettuce and kale and collards.

And then, throughout the year, we'll do tomatoes and cucumbers and eggplants, carrots, beets, strawberries.

I've got fruit trees that are not quite mature yet, but we'll have a lot of fruit coming in.

We harvested persimmons.

I do a lot of culinary herbs.

We do cut flowers, sunflowers and zinnias.

And now I'm branching off into a little bit of dye crops, like, I'm growing some indigo and marigolds and things like that for, you know, natural dyes.

It changes every year, and I'm always excited about growing something new and adding something new to the mix.

- How big is the workforce?

How many people do you have working there?

Obviously you're working there, but who else?

How many others?

- Yeah, yeah, usually when we're fully operational, we'll maintain two people, myself and a farm coordinator, and then, during height of the season, kind of like right now, I'll hire on another person and a half.

So we'll have like, you know, between three, three to four people working throughout the season on the farm.

- Okay, so I have to ask, do your boys work there, too?

Are they into farming, or what are they into?

- You know, they used to.

I mean, when I started this farm, they were five, seven, and nine, and now they're 23, 21 and 19.

So they're, like, finishing up college.

You know, they're kinda doing their own thing right now.

But I have one son, my middle son, he's into, he's going to culinary school.

He's always been into food, and he loves food, so.

But they helped me a lot on the farm when they were younger.

- Jamila, I know that you're also a food advocate, and some of the stuff that I've seen you talk about in other forums is about sort of encouraging people to eat fresh food.

I think you call it living food.

Why is that important, and how does that tie into the farming that you do?

- Yeah, you know, I have a background in environmental engineering, so I was... You know, I got a chance to see sort of firsthand, you know, how the environment affects communities, and specifically kind of like poor communities, more marginalized communities, Black communities.

And then, living in a sort of historically Black part of town here in Atlanta, I also saw like, you know, that there's just like not a lot of healthy food options, and then realizing that a lot of the diseases and just health issues that people are dealing with are really diet-related diseases.

So, you know, we're talking about heart disease, which is the number one killer.

That's really diet and exercise, you know.

We're talking about, you know, diabetes, things like that.

And so I just wanted to be part of the solution, and really, we're encouraging people to try to reduce the amount of processed food, and really incorporate a lot more fresh fruits and vegetables.

And then, the fresher things are, the faster, you know, the closer it is to the source, the more nutrient dense it is.

So when we're selling to customers, you know, usually it's maybe picked, you know, within a day, or, like, you know, no more than a couple of days.

So they're getting, like, the best, the freshest.

People get really excited about it, and they come back, and they tell stories about, you know, what we did, and how they can just tell that the food is different.

- You know, when I was growing up, really young, we lived in upstate New York, and we had a big hunk of land that had a huge garden.

At least to the memory of me as a seven-year-old, that was a huge garden.

And later we moved to Connecticut, and my dad still would put a patch of garden in the backyard, and we would grow vegetables and tomatoes and things that we would actually eat.

As an adult, I haven't done any of that, and I don't know that I would know how to start if I wanted to.

So for people like me who maybe wish that they were, had a little bit more of a green thumb, how do we even start farming or, or gardening, in this case?

- Yeah, I mean, you know, I don't have any formal training.

Like, my great grandparents on both my family's side were the last people to garden, and you know, by the time I kinda got to know them, they were in their 100s, so it surely wasn't showing me the ropes, you know.

But I just, you know, I just devoured information, read a lot, researched a lot.

I think, you know, there's so much, so many resources out there where, like...

I mean, you literally can go to YouTube University and learn everything.

You know?

And so that's kinda how I got into it.

I just was like, you know, I wanna learn and I wanna know, and just kinda jumped in.

And you have to like start, right?

You just, you know, start with one plant, nurture that, and then usually people get the bug and then they'll, you know, if they have space, they'll do a raised bed and, you know, try to plant some stuff.

And I'm still learning, even though I've been doing this, you know, almost 14 years.

I'm still learning, still pivoting, still adjusting, still reaching out to other farmers.

Like, "Oh, what are you doing with this?"

So definitely having a community and reaching out to other people that are growing helps, and supports you in whatever it is that you're trying to do.

- So Jim's memory brings back a memory of my father, who was the son of a farmer.

My father was an airplane mechanic, but he had a little garden, and we grew vegetables there.

We used to take the wastewater from a washing machine to water it.

My first job, I guess, was I would load vegetables and bring them around the neighborhood in a wagon and sell them to people.

Anyway, I just, I had to mention that, because you mentioned everyone has a farmer story.

The question I wanted to ask, though, it's, you have obviously inspired a lot of people to garden and to have their own urban farms.

Do you have any sense of how many people, or where?

I'm guessing, obviously, others in Atlanta, but what has your impact been in that regard, in spreading the word, as it were?

- Yeah, I mean, I will say definitely, you know, I have the show "Homegrown", and that's the premise of the show, is like really helping people to garden for themselves.

And previous to that, you know, within the Atlanta area, within the southeast, you used to get a lot of people that would reach out.

"Hey, I see what you're doing.

I wanna do what you're doing."

You know, people were inspired.

And now that we have, like, I have this national platform, we're getting people from literally all over the country to quantify it.

I mean, I have no idea, you know.

But literally, people calling in from all over the country, sending messages.

They're inspired, they're excited, they wanna learn.

Of course, everyone wants me to come to their own backyard.

(everyone laughing) I'm like, "You know, maybe we'll take the show on the road.

I don't know.

But right now, we're in Atlanta."

Yeah.

So it's just, it's definitely been inspiring.

And I think, you know, I'm just... You know, like you said, you have your story of being connected to farming in some way, and both of you guys have had your story, and it's like, part of the journey is actually uncovering for people that they have a connection, right?

It might have been, you know, severed a generation or two, but like, if you guys kind of sort of really looked back, you know, "Oh, my grandmother, she kept a a kitchen garden," or, "We always had something in the back," or, "We'd run outside and grab some herbs."

So those are kind of the stories that I'm hearing from people as we sort of, you know, vision and think about, you know, farming and gardening and how they can get into it.

- Well, if you're taking those kinds of requests, I can think of one place in the great northeast that would be thrilled to have your help.

(Wayne laughing) That would be my house.

- That figures.

- My house first, though.

- Listen, Jamila, you know- - I'll just get a bidding war going, and then, you know... - Actually, my wife is a really good gardener and, you know, suburban farmer, so.

But you can definitely come and visit and give us some tips.

Go ahead, Jim.

- Jamila, so you mentioned "Homegrown" on the Magnolia Network.

Season three debuted on April 1st.

How did the show come to be in the first place?

- I got an email.

(everyone laughing) - [Wayne] That's how everything begins these days, right?

- Literally, yeah.

I mean, it definitely is interesting, and it's definitely a journey I never saw myself taking.

You know, I didn't have visions of, like, being on TV.

And so this local production company reached out, and they're like, "We have this idea for this show, and there's this network getting ready to launch."

And for me, why I was interested in this show was that it was important for the company, and Magnolia Network specifically, that whatever it is that we shot was really, was authentic, was information that people can really, you know, take and implement wherever they are, and have success.

And so I saw it for myself as an opportunity to spread information, and sort of answer the requests of a lot of people that were reaching out to me, to be like, "Oh, can you help me do what you're doing?

And I'm like, "Well, I can be everywhere at once.

Oh, but here's a platform where I can share a lot of information at once.

And so the feedback we've been getting is like, "Oh my God, I was following that!

I followed that tip you shared on the show, and it's really working and helping."

So I feel really good that that was a vision for it, and that it actually is, like, manifested.

But yeah, it was an email, it was a cold call in February, and I just was like, "Yeah, I'm gonna check it out," you know, and the rest is history, as they say.

- [Jim] That's tremendous.

- So Jamila, we're taping this at the end of March, and season three of "Homegrown" will debut on April 1st, so we haven't had a chance to see it.

Obviously you've taped it.

Give us an overview of what season three will be about, just, you know, as best you can or as you can summarize.

How many episodes, first of all, and what's the general tenor of the season?

- Yeah, so season three, we did eight episodes.

We ventured a little bit further outside of the city, so some of the spaces that we're transforming have become bigger.

We have some interesting spaces that are not just homes but also businesses.

So we did a brewery where we showed someone how to grow hops and harvest the hops, so that they can incorporate it in their brewery.

We're adding more animals to the mix.

So we've got people that have...

I think, you know, season one we had chickens, but we added cows to some families, we added goats.

We just kind of like really stretched, and tried to bring in more of what people are expecting, you know, around farms, and it's not just vegetables.

It's just not a raised bed in a backyard.

Yeah, it was, It got really fun.

And just kind of going further outside of City of Atlanta, and really going into Metro Atlanta.

- One of the questions that I always ponder when I watch a show like "Homegrown" is, how do you find the properties or the families or the individuals that you're gonna help?

How do you find those those individuals?

- Yeah, we definitely do casting calls.

Like, we kind of put it out there, and we're like, "We're filming this show, we're looking for people who are wanting to do this for their families, who are already embarking on this journey."

And then, you know, we visit.

I mean, it's a very long process to do just one show.

I mean, we'll spend somewhere between four to eight months producing one show, just, because we're going from one, you know, from like, the way the property is, where nothing is done, to like totally transforming it.

So we're really on a long journey with each family.

And it just depends on the scale of the project.

But yeah, you know, we put it out there, people reach out, and then, you know, we're looking to see what is unique and interesting about this situation, and what kind of value would it add to the show, and, you know, how good are people on camera, how comfortable they are.

But yeah, people hit us up all the time.

"I wanna be on the show!

Pick me, pick me!"

Yeah, we definitely have a lot to choose from, you know.

- So I'm intrigued by the addition of more animals.

As you mentioned, you have had animals before.

Chickens, I recall.

Why add more animals?

I mean, I think it's a great thing to do.

You mentioned cows, you mentioned goats.

Love goats.

Wish we had a property where we could have a goat.

Why add animals, and why is that important, as important or equally important as the plants?

- Yeah, I mean, you know, first of all, like, you know, we're finding families that are really interested in incorporating animals into their, you know, their specific sites.

And also, you know, with farm animals, there just tends to be, from a sustainability standpoint, this ecosystem will where animals are working synergistically with the farm to kind of add value.

So whether, you're getting milk or you're getting eggs, or, you know, they're helping to fertilize a pasture and keeping an area green, just whatever that purpose that family is looking for, we're just helping them to figure out how to incorporate animals within their farm.

And also, people love animals.

Like, who doesn't love a goat, you know, or a sheep or cute cow?

- I've never met anyone who didn't.

- Yeah, people love animals, and I think that's generally sort of a lot of what people think about when they think of farms.

They think more animals than they think vegetables.

So, you know, we were definitely responding to sort of the demands of the consumer, and, you know, just keeping it interesting.

- So you've talked about the physical health benefits of the type of farming that you do and you inspire other people to do.

There's another aspect, too, and that's the mental health aspect of farming and gardening.

Talk about that.

I think many people will relate to what you get mentally just being outside or being in a greenhouse and working the land.

Talk about that.

- Yeah, you know, a lot of us are working in buildings.

You know, we're sitting in front of our computer.

We're not moving, we're not active, we're not getting fresh air.

So being outside, keeping a garden, you know, small, medium, large, working the farm, it just, you know, that, like you said, the mental health benefits of just sort of breathing fresh air and moving.

And just the process of seeing something either go from a really, really teeny seed or a small plant, and watching that grow, nurturing it, and now you have all of this harvest and this abundant harvest, and you get to like feed your family.

And you get to see that happen over and over again with a bunch of different plants throughout the whole year.

So it's just really, you know, it's exciting, it's magical, it's always new.

I'm always excited and giddy at the beginning of the year, 'cause I'm just like... You know, I plant carrots, for instance, and I'm always like, "Are they gonna make it?"

And then I pull a carrot, and I'm like, you know.

Like, I still get excited, you know, harvesting, you know, the vegetables and things that I grow, and I think that's what people, you know, are connected to.

Fresh air, just movement, just nurturing something.

And you know, and it's just a beautiful, it's a beautiful process and experience.

- Hey, Jamila, I know that you are also a founding member and current manager of the Southwest Atlanta Growers Cooperative, the SWAG Co-op.

What does SWAG do?

- Yeah, so Southwest Atlanta Growers Cooperative is a co-op of Black urban farmers here in the City of Atlanta.

And so it actually started specifically in the neighborhood where I was, because it was, like a lot of different Black farmers, small spaces, upwards of like three acres.

And I was just like, "Guys, we should just get together, form a co-op, so we can, you know, tell our story, represent Black farmers just in general, you know, sorta in the media, in the public eye, so people know that we work here and we're doing this work."

And then, essentially, it's just kind of grown to the Metro Atlanta region.

But really, it's about us coming together collectively to market our products, to inform people about who we are, where we are, how they can engage with us, how they can buy from the co-op, and then also finding resources to support the individual farmers so that they can be economically viable.

And I just saw that need, and was like, "Oh yeah, I started a farm, and I'm gonna start a co-op, too."

'Cause I have lots of time to do all the things.

- I was gonna say, we got about 30 seconds left here.

How do you do all of this?

Between the TV show, the farm, the co-op, we didn't even mention EAT MOVE BeWELL, you've got a ton of stuff going on.

- I don't know.

You know, I eat a lot of kale and greens.

(Jim and Wayne laughing) You know, I look back... You know, when you're young, you have so much energy.

I look back at some of the pictures, and my face was all like round and fat, and I just had so much energy.

And I just, I'm a doer, you know.

Like, if I see something, I'm jumping in it.

I wanna do it.

I wanna just get my hands dirty.

And if I see a need, I fill a need.

And, you know, that's just...

I think about energy later, I guess.

- Well, Jamila, we are so grateful to you for sharing some of that energy with us today.

She is Jamila Norman.

She's on "Homegrown" on the Magnolia Network, and Patchwork Farms.

That's all the time we have this week, but if you wanna know more about "Story in the Public Square," you can find us on Facebook and Twitter, or visit pellcenter.org, where you can always catch up on previous episodes.

For G. Wayne Miller, I'm Jim Ludes, asking you to join us again next time for more "Story in the Public Square."

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