The Intersection of Mental Health and Gun Violence

- Is it easier to access firearms now or mental health therapy?

- It's much easier to access firearms than mental health services.

We don't have the mental health infrastructure in this country to provide it in the scale that it's needed.

- [Jerome] Right.

- And that was before COVID.

- It is far more easier to access a firearm.

More people want firearms than therapy.

More people want firearms than mental health help.

You see what I'm saying?

So what we are looking at now is which one that we feel as a culture and a subculture is going to help us the quickest and the best.

- And it's typically that steel, that iron.

- You know, because again, it gives us this rush, this "Oh, I'm invincible."

(upbeat music) - Hello and welcome to another episode of Slice of the Community.

I'm your host, Jerome Moore.

And today, I have JC Shegog and Ingrid Cockhren.

How y'all doing?

- How are you doing?

- Great.

Look, I'm excited to have y'all here.

Y'all both do so much in your own capacity.

So I want to just take a quick 20 to 30 seconds for y'all to just break down what you all do, professionally, right?

Because we talking about the intersection of mental health and gun violence.

So, I'll start with you JC.

- Okay, well, I am a global defense contractor.

I train our NATO allies, the police, and military.

Locally, I provide security consulting, and I'm also a warrior coach.

- Wow!

Warrior coach, that's different.

(laughs) How about you, Ingrid?

- I am the CEO of a social media network that's dedicated to childhood trauma and adversity, as well as healing-centered practices and trauma-informed practices.

I'm also a psychology professor at Tennessee State University focused on child development and the Black experience.

- Right, and so I'm gonna get right into this.

We know what's been happening, just not here locally in Nashville but nationally and across the country when it comes to mental health and gun violence, firearms.

And I like to pose this first question to you, Ingrid, as far as, is it more the person or is it more the firearm when it comes to these situations, I mean kind of the relationship between the two, if it's a relationship at all?

- Yeah, there's definitely a relationship.

It's a complex issue.

And so if we think about what's practical, right?

We can easily put in policies and procedures in place to confiscate or sell back or really reduce the amount of guns that we have in this country.

That is something that is probably easier than to try to change the hearts and minds of the American populists, right?

So, that takes generations, right?

And so, it's easier to address guns, but it's definitely an issue of our mentality, our collective mentality, and our collective understanding of violence, and our collective understanding of how we operate when it comes to our collective presence.

How do we care for each other?

What does it mean to put the beliefs or the needs of the collective over the individual?

That is something that can be addressed but takes quite some time.

- JC, I wanna pose this one to you.

Gun violence.

What does, when you hear that, just that phrase, especially because of what you do, who you work with, how you work with these different countries around firearms, what does that mean when you hear that, "gun violence"?

- I hear crime.

I hear someone decided to take it upon theyself to inflict pain, trauma, and or death upon someone else with a firearm just because they wanted to.

- Right.

Having that military background, how does that play into mental health?

'Cause I'm pretty sure it goes in some type of mental health screenings when you going through these operations, and even before you sign, they want to do a psych value, see where you at mentally.

So, how do you think about that in intersection with gun violence or just firearms in general?

- Typically, you want to put the firearm in the hands of a responsible person.

Now, we know this is a task within itself.

- [Jerome] Right.

- But with the mental health components- - [Jerome] Right.

- People tend to let the firearm be the leader, kind of like the liquor is your liquid courage, right?

- Yeah.

- Well, firearms give you a false sense of strength and power, you know?

So now this is the control, instead of you being the controller.

- [Jerome] Right.

I want to examine the history of violence, right?

I truly believe this country specifically was founded on violence, right?

We know, we understand that.

Well, just the indigenous Native American folks, Black folks being enslaved, all that, just the relationship with the gun in itself, also with this country.

So Ingrid, how would you impact just that historical context of violence and guns along with the mental health of our country and what our country's mental health was founded on or the mental health that our country had to be, our founders, our leaders had to be under the influence, and that mental health when coming to, you know, the new world.

- Yeah, there's a lot there.

Our historical context is deep when it comes to guns and violence in general.

- [Jerome] Right.

- So, obviously when we think about the amount of land theft that took place, what would be needed to keep enslaved peoples under control, we're talking about domination, kind of what you were saying about power and exerting power over others.

And that is deeply rooted in our country.

And so, and then there's a lot of media assaults and propaganda around that as well.

So, we have to be safe.

That means that we have to protect our families from "savages," right?

- [Jerome] Right.

- And so, and even before that, when we think about, you know, settlers coming here, they were leaving oppression.

They were a traumatized group before they arrived.

- [Jerome] Right.

- Not to mention the fact that, you know, even, you know, those who were coming in, some of them were coming in as, you know, as sentences for crimes committed.

So, we think about those groups of settlers who came here in a distant land, unknown territory, having to go through a process that is traumatic coming from, you know, Europe, which there was a great, you know, migration out of Europe at this time because of the poor conditions, you know, economic issues, you know, the futile system and overall, and also, you know, the religious persecution that people were experiencing.

They brought those values here with them and then oppressed others.

- [Jerome] Right.

- And of course, I'm gonna need my gun to protect myself when I've stolen someone's land and I'm oppressing people and I am enslaving people.

And so, there's that context.

And then when we think about what that means today, trauma is passed on through generations.

So there's been a very clear thread that in order for me to protect myself in order for me to project masculinity, in order for me to be a provider, I have to be able to use guns.

And then, of course, we just have a history where guns are just extremely acceptable.

My back, you know, I'm a Tennesseean.

My family's from Texas.

And so I come from a family that uses guns.

And I also come from a military family.

So, we are not, I'm not fearful of guns, and I don't have an individual belief that you shouldn't use them or use them to hunt.

But the amount of guns that we have is inappropriate.

The types of guns that we have are inappropriate.

But then also the mindset, the belief that has been instilled upon us that certain groups are disposable, which makes us more likely to use guns against them.

- Right.

- Right?

Like women, like people of color.

Then we get into that historical context.

And even beyond that, I would like to add that, you know, when we think about what it means to protect and in this long history that we have, it is deeply embedded in racism, deeply embedded in racism through the reconstruction.

Well, obviously during slavery, there was some protection around killing people of color because they belonged to some of their property.

You had to pay that slave's master if you did harm to their slave.

And reconstruction is a free for all.

- [Jerome] Right.

- White men, in particular, were able to kill people of color with no type of legal repercussions.

And that is still something that we see today with, just recently, you know, people have killed in "self-defense" because someone was in my yard or on my property.

And they weren't even arrested at the time.

You know, this is something that's pervasive in our society.

- I want to pose that same question to you too, JC, and from your military background, specialist background, or your training background, your thoughts on this, the history of the gun, the history of the firearm in this country.

- Do you believe in the concept that crap rolls downhill?

And when you start looking at how things started.

- [Jerome] Right.

- A disgruntled people fighting for their freedom.

Fighting for their liberty.

And then they come to a new land.

When they get to the new land, they figure, "okay, this is what I'm gonna have to do.

I'm gonna have to assert myself."

- [Jerome] Right.

But I have a neighbor.

Now, we are cordial at first, but I want more.

So, now I get rid of this neighbor, and then I get rid of all the neighbors of the neighbors.

And then from there, "hmm, I got a lot of work to do.

I heard that we can get free labor."

- [Jerome] Right.

- So let's go and get some people to do some free labor, and then let's subject them to inhumane, unimaginable, traumatic, and deadly circumstances.

So now you looking at the mental health and the gun constantly working, constantly working.

Now, each generation sees this, and as human beings, we typically repeat what we see.

We repeat what we hear, and we do what we see.

- Right.

- So, this is kind of like the chickens coming home to roost.

You know, the kids on the street, they're not mimicking George Washington, they're not mimicking Ben Franklin.

They're mimicking people like the Gambinos, they're mimicking people like the Sambranos, you know, the gangsters that was, they were celebrated.

- [Jerome] Right.

- You know, they were also looked up as like heroes.

- [Jerome] Yeah.

- So this is what the kids are mimicking, you know, they're mimicking these gangster heroes who made all this money, and now it's passing down.

They just passing it along to the next generation, the mental health issues along with the gun.

- [Jerome] Yeah, if you think about just our country and just the propaganda that we see, right?

We see a country that like if you want something, you use violence, right?

If you want to get something done, it seems like violence is the only thing that is respected, right?

And so you see that carried on from a village group, individual kind of level.

And so that's what we perpetuate, right?

So, I always like to just pose that question, just that enticement with just harm and punishment that we might all just carry as Americans because of those historical context.

I'm gonna throw this one back to you, JC, around is it easier to access firearms now or mental health therapy?

I don't even know if there's any stats or anything like that.

But I would just like your just perspective on just where we are and which one you believe that an individual citizen could access at this very moment if they wanted to.

- It is far more easier to access a firearm.

More people want firearms than therapy.

More people want firearms than mental health help.

You see what I'm saying?

So what we are looking at now is which one that we feel as a culture and a subculture is gonna help us the quickest and the best.

- [Jerome] Right.

- And it's typically that steel, that iron.

- [Jerome] Right.

- You know, because again, it gives us this rush, this, "oh, I'm invincible."

- [Jerome] Right.

So, now, this is the result of that mentality.

- Maybe the firearm is my mental health therapy, right?

- For those that- - Right, for some, yeah.

- You know, for those, like for me, I like to go and shoot.

That helps me.

I like to also hit the bag.

You know, it helps me.

But if you are not disciplined, and what I mean by discipline, I mean holistic discipline, meaning A, accountable.

B, there's an environment of consistency and of standards.

And C, or three, there's a skill set being learned.

So, if we're not practicing holistic discipline, it's easier to get outta context.

It's easier to fall to the wayside.

It's easier to become one of those statistics.

- Ingrid, I'm gonna throw that same question to you.

You're in the mental health trauma profession.

Is it easier to access mental health from such a person like yourself?

Or do you believe people are just can access firearms easier?

- It's much easier to access firearms than mental health services.

We don't have the mental health infrastructure in this country to provide it in the scale that it's needed.

And that was before COVID, which is a collectively traumatic experience.

And so, since we've had a collectively traumatic experience and every time we do, we have an increase in firearm cells.

And so, and we've had that since COVID.

But then when we look at collectively traumatic experiences, they change so much about our society and they often pit us against each other.

So, if we think about COVID, and you think, you know, it happened in 2020, which was an election year.

It became a political football.

There were, you know, our political polarization is at its height.

And there's definitely, since even, you know, I guess, since Obama was running for president, there's been a very clear narrative of people are coming to get my guns, which is definitely fear mongering.

That goes back to that propaganda.

We have a very clear history of fear mongering around a lot of different areas, people of color taking jobs, people are, you know, the government's trying to come take my guns.

And even, you know, the second amendment is meant to protect the individual, and militias are able to protect themselves against a tyrannical government.

However, that fear mongering is deeply rooted in our mental health issues.

We are fearful young country.

Much of our issues internally and within this country are based in fear, fear of each other, tribalism, fear of outside invaders.

And, also, again, coming from, as a, you know, settling from a colony with this fear of tyrannical government is due to our past.

- [Jerome] Right.

- So, it's deeply rooted in fear and with good reason.

- Right.

- But also we have fear mongering that's used as a tactic to increase gun sales and among many things, other types of sales.

- I'm gonna throw this to you JC, and I'll come back to you, Ingrid, around the now, what's happening right now, unfortunately, we had a mass shooting here, right here in Nashville, Tennessee, at Covenant High School.

Not too long ago, we had the shooting at the grocery store at Buffalo, New York, where there was primarily Black folks, elderly, vulnerable population, and then again, in Texas as well, another school shooting, Being a specialist, being something that you do when it comes to risk management, security consulting, how do we combat these things from happening, from a firearm from a gun violence, just from a violence standpoint?

What are some things people can be thinking about to prevent these things?

- Imagine a village that sits within a valley.

- [Jerome] Okay.

- And this village got flooded with water.

- [Jerome] All right.

- And there's no way to pump the water out immediately.

So what we have to do is we have to send in the responders to help those that can't swim or doesn't have a place to stand on the foundation.

At the same time, we're gonna have to pump in resources to help those who can withstand the water and teach those to swim until we figure out a way to pump this water out.

- [Jerome] Yeah.

- And this is what we're going through in our society.

We have a lot of "water," (laughs) lot of guns out there.

And we need a multiple, the application- - [Jerome] Right.

- in order to maintain some type of order, maintain life because it's so easy.

- [Jerome] Right.

- It's so easy for people who are either suffering from a mental breakdown or those that just feel a certain way.

It's just too easy for them to access firearms and invoke their will on people.

- I want to go to you on the school.

Here in Nashville, Tennessee, we have, you know, school resource officers, SROs, right?

We don't have the amount of counselors that we need per ratio in our public schools right now.

How would the insertion of more resources, more funding, maybe to therapists, maybe to counselors around their social-emotional learning, and maybe instead of school resource officers, how would that benefit?

Some people don't even like the idea of youth being around police officers in school.

- [Ingrid] Right.

Especially the population of people of color, just because of the historical relationship between police and community.

But, can it be a and both?

How can we pour resources to our youth that may be feeling emotionally down, oppressed, and may want to enact harm on themselves or enact harm on others?

What role could somebody like yourself play in our school system?

- So, this is a complex topic, right?

- Yeah, yeah, yeah.

That's why we got you here.

(Ingrid laughing) - So, if we think about, you know, mental health services for youth, I'm always on the fence of whether or not the schools is the best place for that.

- [Jerome] Okay.

- Schools are struggling, obviously.

- [Jerome] Right.

- We have a lot of issues in our school system and because of that, we have basically, you know, our standing has been impacted in education.

If we really wanted to address youth mental health, we would have a mental health services infrastructure that is independent of the school system.

- [Jerome] Okay.

- It's kind of like a network of care focused on our mental health outcomes as a nation.

- Right.

- That would happen well before our kids get into school.

Our brains are about 80% developed by the time we are 3 years old.

- [Jerome] Right.

- Yeah.

And so what's happening from 0 to 3?

- [Jerome] Right.

- And people don't want to talk about that because we believe that this is the family business, it's individual responsibility.

But, you know, when we think about childhood trauma and lack of attachment in the home, just imagine if, you know, I used to work with juvenile offenders.

And if we think about a lack of a mother's love or lack of attachment with your caregiver, and that's the main driver.

- Yeah.

- For someone of a young age, being able to pull a trigger on someone else.

- [Jerome] Yeah.

- It is a lack of empathy that is instilled through the way that they are raised.

- [Jerome] Right.

- And the way that they're raised is impacted by the larger society.

- [Jerome] Right.

So, if we live in a racist society, if we live in a society that allows poverty to be at a crisis level.

- [Jerome] Right.

- If we allow for families to be under the weight of poverty, racism, and all the things that come along with kind of this system that we have, then, of course, we're gonna have children who have mental health issues.

It's adaptive.

- Right.

- You know, it's not, we talk about mental health like it is a perversion of the human experience.

Our mental health is a reflection of our environment.

- [Jerome] Right.

- If our environment is poor, then our mental health will be poor.

And we will employ tactics to ensure our survival.

And I have to be pretty coldhearted to survive- - [Jerome] Right.

- in poverty.

I have to be, I have to teach my children or prepare them to experience racism- - Right.

- when I live in a racist society.

- Right.

- And that is the issue that we need to address if we want to address youth mental health.

And we are not prepared to do that at this time.

- I wanna kind of circle back to access as we kind of come to a close.

Here in Nashville specifically from a state level after the covenant shooting, you know, everybody, we need red flag laws, we need universal background checks, we need bans on specific type of rifles or firearms.

What do you think can be preventative measures?

And I go to you, JC, first, and I want you to have you answer it too, Ingrid.

Preventative measures when it comes to access to firearms and while still giving United States citizens the second amendment right to bear arms.

- The main thing right now that is missing is cooperative communication.

- [Jerome] Okay.

- There's already laws and rules on the book concerning mental health.

- [Jerome] Right.

So, a lot of times mental health don't communicate with whoever it is that's given the authorization to get the firearms.

- [Jerome] Right.

- Okay?

As well as, like, I believe it's Japan.

Japan make you go through 3 to 4 months of testing and training before you get a gun.

- [Jerome] Okay.

- They're saying that you can have one.

But, what you're going to need to do is you're going to need to show competence, you're gonna need to show accountability, you're gonna need to show responsibility.

And this is what I think we should do.

- How about you, Ingrid?

Do red flag laws, universal background checks, those things, would that help the situation from a preventative standpoint of mass shootings and, you know, making sure the right people have firearms and are competent and disciplined.

- Yeah, I do not believe so.

- [Jerome] Okay.

- I think that there's always a way to get around policies and procedures.

- [Jerome] Okay.

- This goes back again to, you know, obviously removing guns from this situation would be the easiest way.

And then the other avenue is to change the hearts and minds of the citizens of this country.

And that is a long road, that is very clear paradigm shift in this country where we put the collective needs and the collective wellbeing over individual rights and freedoms.

This is not what we're based in.

We're based in individual rights and freedoms trumping the collective need and wellbeing to include at the expense of our children.

- JC, 10 seconds, anything else you want to leave with the watchers and the listeners around mental health and the intersection of gun violence?

- That people, once you become familiar with the tool, your environment, it's purpose, and then the law surrounding it, you would be a better custodian.

But once you start adapting an unreasonable mindset, these things are gonna continue to happen.

- Ingrid, 10 seconds.

- Yeah, I believe that our political leaders need to do what needs to be done in order to bring about the change that we need.

The easiest low hanging fruit is that we address the amount of guns that we have.

Until we have the political will to do so, then we will continue to see that.

If anything, it'll escalate.

- Well, I thank both of you all for unpacking and examining this from you all, both respected, professional just duties in what you all do.

And I wanna thank you all at home for watching another episode of Slice of the Community, and we'll see y'all next time.

(upbeat music)