This script has been lightly edited for clarity.

 

Jace Lacob: I’m Jace Lacob, and you’re listening to MASTERPIECE Studio.

 Since Season 1 of World on Fire, Parisian nurse Henriette Guilbert has had to be extremely careful about whom she trusts. Each encounter is a potential minefield of danger, as she conceals her true identity and her mission at the American Hospital.

 

CLIP

Webster: Are you okay? 

Henriette: I need to talk to you. I am Jewish Webster. My papers are forged. I’m Jewish.

Webster: Is that all?

Henriette: If the Nazis march into Paris, it won’t just be me who is in trouble.

 

Throughout the first season, she developed quite the knack for hiding in plain sight. As the Nazis marched into Paris, not only did Henriette avoid getting caught, but she also helped organize an underground escape route from the hospital. 

In Season 2, as the Nazis tighten their grip on the hospital, Henriette moves her operation to the French countryside, where she hides and rehabilitates fallen British airmen, and helps them return home to fight again another day. Her most recent patient is RAF pilot David, played by Gregg Sulkin. 

 

CLIP

Henriette: Are you alright? I’m sorry to keep you in there for so long.

David: It’s better than being dead.

Henriette: I got some bones from the butcher. It’s good. Eat.

 

Henriette’s skills are put to the test as she must tend to David’s injuries and keep him hidden from both the Nazis and the locals, who are suspicious about her movements. As they carefully make their way through the countryside, a budding romance develops between the two. But such sweet things never last in times of war. 

 

CLIP

Henriette: It is time.

David: Are you sure?

Henriette: One flashlight, I saw. We don’t have long.

David: No, I mean are you sure we don’t just run and disappear?

Henriette: I am sure.

 

Actor Eugénie Derouand joins the podcast to discuss trust, deception, and what drives Henriette to take these enormous risks. 

 

Jace Lacob: This week, we are joined by World on Fire star Eugénie Derouand. Salut, bonjour.

Eugénie Derouand: Bonjour.

Jace Lacob: Ça va?

Eugénie Derouand: Ça va, et toi?

Jace Lacob: Ça va bien. Henriette was introduced in series one of World on Fire, but as a sort of adjunct or companion to Webster’s larger story. But in series two, however, she moves into the foreground. What did you make of the increased focus on Henriette in series two?

Eugénie Derouand: The script for season two made me really, really excited because it focused a lot more on Henriette’s character. And I always thought Henriette was complex and interesting. Her story fascinated me. And this focus in this season is more on France and the French resistance, and Henriette is part of this group and plays a big role in helping people escape from the Nazis.

We see her taking bigger risks, but even though it’s dangerous, she continues with her mission, and she can’t stand by and watch injustice and suffering. This season allowed us to see Henriette’s world and understand how strongly she believes in her cause. I think it also shows the softer side of her character.

Jace Lacob: I love the relationship that develops between Henriette and Albert, who passes information from one another at the camp. It’s Henriette who tells Albert that Webster has made it back to the States. What did you make of the rather interesting bond between Henriette and Albert?

Eugénie Derouand: Henriette and Albert have a special connection and trust each other completely. And they have to trust each other as they share a dangerous secret. And they also both love Webster. Albert is Henriette’s only confidant. She can’t trust anyone else. So yes, their shared goal keeps them going. They are both dedicated to helping others.

Jace Lacob: Henriette’s brother, Luc, is at the Romainville camp, making it necessary for Henriette to keep returning and forcing Albert to help her with a dramatic escape plan. She’s caught red handed with morphine at the hospital and somehow twists her way out of danger once again. How is Henriette so good at thinking on her feet, at reacting, at becoming someone else?

Eugénie Derouand: She always stays calm under pressure and she can think quickly without letting stress affect her decisions. She can assess situations quickly because she’s observant. And she’s very confident and she adjusts to different places like moving from a busy city hospital to a small village. And she handles her emotions well. She stays in control when necessary. And even though she’s sometimes vulnerable, she never loses focus, even in very tough situations.

Jace Lacob: You mentioned her having to move from the city into a small village in the countryside after her cover’s blown and she has to escape the American hospital. She’s moving British airmen out of France, and she’s being looked at with suspicion by the locals. How does that dramatic shift from Paris change Henriette’s methods? Does she have to change the way she acts or the way she’s going about these covert activities?

Eugénie Derouand: Yes, in Paris, Henriette was a little safer because she could easily disappear in the crowds and the busy hospital meant she could hide easily and her position as a nurse meant she was in charge. She could act with authority and do things without attracting attention or being questioned much.

And in the countryside, she had to be very careful because people were suspicious of strangers. She tries to avoid drawing attention to herself and does sewing work to seem like an ordinary villager. And we also see her making herself a bit smaller, not behaving as confidently as she did when she was a nurse. It becomes more difficult to blend into the village, there are no big crowds. So, she stands out as a newcomer. She knows she’s being watched all the time, and everyone was watching everyone else because of the fear of the Nazis.

Jace Lacob: It’s in episode four where Henriette crosses paths with RAF pilot David, whom she discovers unconscious and wounded in the countryside. What does Henriette make of David initially?

Eugénie Derouand: Henriette, for me, sees him as someone who needs safety and her help and both of them are in danger. So, she’s a nurse first, and David is her patient. That’s her main focus. She understands she has to treat him quickly so he can be taken to a safe place.

Jace Lacob: I love that their first scene together is her fixing his dislocated shoulder. Something she’s never done on her own before. It’s intense and they need to be quiet lest they’re discovered. 

 

CLIP

Henriette: You have an infected wound and a dislocated shoulder. And I’m sorry, I don’t have any morphine.

David: No, I’ll be alright.

Henriette: No, you don’t understand. You mustn’t make a sound. There are ears everywhere. 

 

Jace Lacob: The scene also contains glimmers of humor and even romantic tension. How did you interpret their first scene together?

Eugénie Derouand: This scene shows us more of how capable and confident Henriette is and how she just does what needs to be done no matter what. And David is in pain and feeling vulnerable, but he immediately trusts her, and she feels a connection with him. And for the first time, we see her smile even though they are in a bad situation.

Jace Lacob: Henriette is angrily confronted by an older French woman who has heard rumors of British airmen in the woods. Henriette claims to be a seamstress, but she knows she can’t stay here. What does she make of this woman’s fear of her insistence that they’ll all be shot if the Germans discover someone helping the British?

Eugénie Derouand: She understands the woman’s fear. If the Germans find out about Henriette helping the British, the whole village is in jeopardy. So, it’s clear to Henriette that it’s time to leave and find safety elsewhere. She’s at risk of being betrayed.

Jace Lacob: I mean, if that weren’t enough, she’s then made an object of interest by a German officer who propositions her while she attempts to shield David’s hiding place with her body. She’s shaken by this encounter with the German soldier, but she puts on a brave face for David and refuses to leave him behind.

 

CLIP

Henriette: I’ll get you some morphine if I can, but we will have to leave tonight, as soon as it’s dark.

David: You go. Leave me, I’ll be alright.

Henriette: I’m not leaving you.

David: I’m wrecked. I’ll be too slow.

Henriette: I’m not leaving you.

David: But you don’t even know me.

Henriette: You haven’t been in France long enough. A few more days, and you will think as we do, that you are for me, and I am for you.

 

Jace Lacob: What sentiment is embedded in these words? What does that mean?

Eugénie Derouand: Henriette doesn’t believe in leaving anyone behind and she believes that they are stronger together and that they need each other to survive what they are facing. For her it’s not just a choice, it’s the way it is, and their unity will help them overcome whatever challenges they have to face.

Jace Lacob: They’re hidden in a truck, but nearly discovered and in the dark, they grip each other’s hands trying to stay silent. What does this human contact mean to Henriette? What has David so quickly come to mean to her? Is he a lifeline in this moment?

Eugénie Derouand: Yes, it’s more than just a physical contact. David becomes her strength. She can lean on someone else, even if only for a little while, and leaning on him in the truck shows us a rare moment of when she can get comfort and safety, which she hasn’t felt since we met her.

 

MIDROLL

 

Jace Lacob: Episode 5 finds the duo in the barn and there’s a sense of magic to these scenes in the hayloft. There’s a sense of temporary escape from the war and in each other’s arms. There’s also a great deal of sadness and loss here. The farmer’s wife with her eyes full of tears looking at the beauty of these two strangers, the risk that this woman is taking. Does Henriette see any of herself in this woman now that the tables have been turned and she is the one being hidden?

Eugénie Derouand: When Henriette sees the farmer’s wife crying, she knows this woman is taking a great risk to keep them safe. And this is what Henriette has done for many others in the past. And they have also both lost a lot because of the war. And the wife has lost her son and Henriette is missing her brother. The woman who has always rescued and helped others is now depending on the kindness and bravery of others. She deeply understands the farmer’s wife’s emotions. And at this moment, Henriette might feel a strong connection. She recognizes this woman’s strength and compassion, even though life is incredibly difficult.

Jace Lacob: Henriette’s stony facade has fallen here. She cries thinking about Luc not knowing where he is or if he’s even alive.

 

CLIP

David: You’ve been crying again.

Henriette: I keep thinking of my brother. He was arrested. They put him in Romainville. We had to get him out quickly. A Jew and a Communist. I don’t know if he’s still alive, if he got away.    

 

Jace Lacob: David has been sort of removed from all of this on the other side of the rainbow. Does she resent his naivete or does she envy it?

Eugénie Derouand: I think Henriette feels a mix of emotions in this moment. And I think she loves David’s innocence, which is completely opposite to how she feels because she has seen terrible things and knows from experience what is happening to people in this world. And maybe there is a bit of envy, her whole view of life and the world would have been changed because of her experiences, but I think these emotions would pass quickly as she just enjoys being with David and enjoys his humor and his perspective on the world.

Jace Lacob: They end up getting drunk and falling into each other’s arms in the hayloft. It’s sad and beautiful, these two lovers living purely in the moment. What does this moment mean to these two who could die tomorrow? Is this a raging against the dying of the light?

Eugénie Derouand: They understand life is unpredictable and that there is chaos all around them and the world outside is on fire but for that moment they have each other and they are living in this moment. And the scene reminds us that love and connection can be found even in the worst of times and if we are lucky enough to find it, we should grab it with both hands.

Jace Lacob: Hold on to it tightly. David asks her how she knows who to trust. “You don’t,” she says. “You mustn’t, ever. Trust is dangerous. There’s no safety anymore, not for anyone.” Does she see the irony here that they had to trust each other, trust the farmer and his wife?

Eugénie Derouand: Trusting others, of course, is risky, but they have no choice. And they have to trust the farmer, his wife and each other to stay alive, and Henriette understands the risks. The situation shows us how human connections become complicated during times of crisis and trust, even with its risks, becomes a lifeline.

Jace Lacob: She attempts to teach him French, and for a moment they’re in a romantic dramedy, “…la serrurier.” she croons. “There’s no such word,” he jokes, saying he’ll have to practice. “You’d be discovered and shot within a week.” she says. Is this what breaks the spell between them, the intrusion of reality into this little bubble that they’ve created?

Eugénie Derouand: She knows that the romantic moment is broken and pulling them back to the harsh reality of wartime. And she knows that any mistake could lead to serious consequences, even death.

Jace Lacob: He later asked her how to say I love you, but she won’t say it to him. Instead, she says that she’s going back to Paris to a new hospital where the Germans don’t know her. And she says that he has to go back as well. They laugh, they almost cry, they kiss. “Don’t forget me. Please don’t ever forget me.” What was it like filming this rather tragic but beautiful scene with Gregg?

Eugénie Derouand: Filming the scene with Gregg was very emotional. And yeah, it was great. It’s so great to play that kind of scene. Gregg and I collaborated closely to express genuine emotions making the scene quite heartbreaking. It illustrates the complexity and heartache of love and loss in wartime.

Jace Lacob: It’s such a beautiful, beautiful scene. Henriette gets David into position. She pushes him towards the shore.

 

CLIP

Henriette: Go! Get down to the beach. They will get as close to shore as they can. Good luck!

David: I will see you in Paris after the war. I will come back, and I will find you.

Henriette: I know you will.

 

Jace Lacob: Is this a beautiful lie that they’ve spun here, one tinged with hope and optimism?

Eugénie Derouand: So, while it may be a lie, they tell themselves to make the separation more bearable, and they use this dream to give themselves some much needed hope for a future they long for. And hope and disbelief is what will keep them going in the bad times ahead.

Jace Lacob: And then there are very bad times. After leaving David, Henriette is immediately surrounded by German soldiers in the tunnels and forced to surrender. She’s interrogated and unmasked as Henriette Guilbert, a hood placed over her head. Does she believe that this is the end for her?

Eugénie Derouand: Of course, Henriette is in danger. But I think she believes with everything she has that it’s not over. She’s very strong and keeps going because there are people who need her, and she will always try to find a way out and keep her mission alive. Even though it’s very dangerous, she’s fiercely determined to live.

Jace Lacob: She ends up back at Romainville where she’s reunited with Albert, and she knows she’s going to be sent to Ravensbrück in Germany. And he says, “If you go into that camp, you aren’t coming out.” Did meeting David change her perspective, change that drive? Or is she just as driven as ever to do what she needs to do in order to survive?

Eugénie Derouand: Henriette has always been driven and motivated by her courage and strength, and she has a strong will to survive. And before she met David, her whole focus was on what she could do for others and what she felt she had to do for others. But when she was with David for the first time, she could give in to her own needs and feel her own emotions. And I think she begins to see the possibilities of a life after the war. Love might be possible. And David is a way of reconnecting with that side of her. And it’s almost as if being with David gave her new determination and strength and gave her what she needed to keep going.

Jace Lacob: Albert helps her with preparations with bribes. He gives her a weapon which she conceals under her bandage. “Good luck,” he whispers. And this is the final image of Henriette we’re left with. What did you make of this image when you read the script for this episode, this final image of her standing here?

Eugénie Derouand: I was very worried about Henriette’s future and thinking about what might happen to her. And as she walks away, she looks afraid but confident, and already thinking about how to escape. Albert has given her a weapon and something to bribe with, and I really hope she uses them. I know that Henriette is strong, and she will keep fighting until the end, no matter what happens. And I know she will never give up, no matter what happens.

Jace Lacob: Well said. Eugénie Derouand, mille merci.

Eugénie Derouand: Merci. Merci à vous.

 

And we’re back with World on Fire historical advisor Richard Overy to unpack some historical topics from Episode Six. 

 

Jace Lacob: We’re told in this episode that Kiev has fallen, part of Germany’s Operation Barbarossa, which saw the access invasion of the Soviet Union. Japan attacks China as well, part of a plan to occupy China. World on Fire has thus stayed out of the Pacific theater. Japan has yet to attack Pearl Harbor and bring America into the Second World War. Did the threat of Japan seem distant and far away given the German bombs dropping on cities throughout Britain?

Richard Overy: It did seem very distant. I think most people didn’t think about it at all. I mean, even with the British government and the armed forces, they just basically crossed their fingers and hoped that the Japanese wouldn’t do anything in East Asia while they were so bogged down in the Mediterranean in Europe. But yes, even the war in China, which attracted a lot of attention during the 1930s and among the British public, faded from view, partly because it had reached a stalemate anyway in the China theater before Pearl Harbor. But yes, it didn’t feature a lot.

Jace Lacob: Churchill, in a 1941 speech, says, “We are in the presence of a crime without a name.” What did he mean by this exactly, and to what was he referring?

Richard Overy: Well, he was referring to what we now call the Holocaust. It was a crime without a name, because they didn’t know quite what the crime was, or what was going on. But, British intelligence services were able to track what was going on in the eastern front through police reports and so on and so on. It was a jigsaw puzzle with most of the pieces missing.

They thought that something horrible was going on in the east at the murder of the Jews, but it was difficult to pin it together, or to understand quite what German policy might be. They had to wait in the end until a number of brave Poles managed to smuggle themselves out of Poland and bring news of Auschwitz and Majdanek and the other extermination camps. But that happens later.

Looking back at it now, we should wish that the British had made more of it, made more of a fuss, publicized it more, made the Germans anxious about what world opinion would think about them. But that doesn’t really happen, not certainly until the end of 1942.

Jace Lacob: Sir James upholds his deal with Kasia, who having escaped to Britain, parachutes back into Poland. What sort of cooperation existed between British and Polish intelligence services at this point in the war?

Richard Overy: Well, not a lot, obviously. The Polish government was in exile and Polish forces were stationed in Britain, and so there were lines of communication. And they managed to get information from the Polish Home Army, the underground army that was formed in Poland. Again, information smuggled out one way or another. But actually, conditions in Poland I think the British knew remarkably little about, which is why they relied on parachuting only Poles, ethnic Poles into Poland, who would be able to merge with the wider population and perhaps not be so conspicuous.

But on the whole, throughout most of the war, the British view of Poland was very distant. Even though Poland had been the reason they’d gone to war in 1939, it was difficult to find what they could do to help Poland during the war. And they had so many of their own problems fighting the war in the Mediterranean, in Europe, in the Middle East, in East Asia, that Poland was never a top priority.

Jace Lacob: Henriette launches a daring escape plan as she’s headed to a concentration camp at the end of the episode. Was escape possible from the camps? Are there any particularly famous examples of escape?

Richard Overy: Not from the camps, no. On the way to the camps it’s possible. I think what she’s thinking of is probably escaping from a train. That did happen. Not obviously commonly, because most people did end up in the camp, but it was possible to escape from train, people did. Once you’re in the camp, escape is almost impossible. The escapes that we do know about in the camps in the East were mass breakouts quite often where the people in the camps had had enough and they would attempt a mass breakout.

Occasionally they would dig a tunnel and try to get out as they do from a number of concentration camps and extermination camps. But in almost all cases, they’re either betrayed, or it’s easily discovered, or if they do escape, they’re recaptured and executed.

Jace Lacob: Richard Overy, thank you so very much.

Richard Overy: My pleasure.

 

And with that, we say goodbye to another gripping season of World on Fire, and another year of MASTERPIECE. Coming up next, in the new year, we welcome in a brand-new season of the cozy, warmhearted, animal-filled drama All Creatures Great and Small.

 

CLIP

Siegfried: That was Slavens. Another difficult lambing he said. That’s the second one this month.

Helen: Poor man, he must really be struggling. 

Siegfried: Well he’s an experienced farmer, he’s perfectly capable of sorting it out himself.

Helen: Oh, it must be your sparkling company he enjoys, Siegfried.  

Siegfried: Oscar Wilde considered sarcasm the lowest form of wit.

Helen: But the highest form of intelligence.

 

Be sure to tune in on Sunday, January 7th for our double-header fourth season premieres of All Creatures Great and Small and Miss Scarlet and the Duke.