“Walk Like a Girl:” How a Queer Boy Growing Up in Nepal Became a Fashion Icon

HARI SREENIVASAN:  Bianna, thanks. Prabal Gurung, thanks so much for joining us. Your book, “Walk Like a Girl,” the title is a phrase that really was used as kind of a slur against you for so long. Why put this as the title of the book? What does this phrase mean to you now?

PRABAL GURUNG: You know, when I was growing up surrounded by a really strong mother and sister and strong women overall, and even my, you know, superhero – my favorite superhero was Wonder Woman – I never thought emulating women or the way they were, the complexities was anything bad. In fact, I thought it was empowering.

So when I went into the real world and the way it was thrown at me…I understood the intention behind it and the impact, the negative impact about it…but I felt like, you know, the term walk like a girl, which is used, you know, pejoratively often to diminish and demean someone, I wanted to take that term and transform it to a term and phrase of power, courage, and empowerment. And simply because, you know, I believe to walk like a girl in this world is to walk through softness and defiance and complexities and, you know, courage and vulnerability. (04:39) And I felt l-ike it’s also this way of saying, you know, I belong here. Unapologetically loving yourself and owning your space, and having the humility to be curious and understand, but also like, you know, not shrinking oneself because I think it’s important to understand that, you don’t need outside validation, that you are worthy on your own. The space that you occupy is enough.

SREENIVASAN:  You know, you start this book with some easily, you know, described as painful parts of your childhood growing up in Nepal. I mean, you knew you were different. You were trying on your mom’s lipstick and in secret your cousin’s dresses. And this was you know, your siblings and your mother were firmly in support of you. But you know, your larger family and community was not. And I wonder, they didn’t really understand you. So give us an example. What were the consequences?

GURUNG: Oh, from, I would want to say there was something subtle about it. There was nothing subtle, you know. They were really point blank, made me feel, say stuff like, oh, you’re a pansy, you are this, you are a girl, you are, you cry like a girl, you walk like a girl, you talk like a girl. And it was just so, I, it was so confusing. As I said earlier, like, you know, for me, there was nothing wrong with that. So it was really confusing.

And, but then the, then it got into when I went to school, it, because I did not fit into this more the narrow description of what a boy should look like. So that really bothered. And as we know in this world, the people in power oftentimes, you know, or the majority can’t see anyone who’s different than them. It really threatens their own existence. And my existence that was unapologetic, and, you know, just like unabashedly myself really bothered them. Because someone like me who wasn’t let’s say, who looked like them should be shrinking. Right. And, but I wasn’t. I really felt like the love and the acceptance that I got from my siblings and my mother back home empowered me to have a voice.

But then it turned into, you know, physical beatings, bullying. And to be completely honest, like, you know, when I look back at it, the physical aspect of it, you can still handle it. Because, you know, you kind of learn how to protect yourself. You know, I didn’t know every nook and corner. I didn’t know where the next punch was coming at me. I didn’t know that. But you kind of train yourself. And that’s a trauma that you, you know, as I always feel like as a marginalized person, anyone can understand that. You’re always in that, you know, flight to fight mode.

But it’s the impact and the volley of words, that negative words that come at you. The impact of it is, it really sinks in and stays with you. You know, your body registers it, you know? The physical wound and everything, it can heal but that is what I was like really initially not understanding. But when it got to me and stayed with me for a very long time. It took me a while to get to a place when I was like, you know what? I’m going to work on it. I’m, the world says that I don’t fit in. I’m gonna do my own thing.  

And I used to tell my mother, she reminds me, I used to say something like, you know, mom, I know my worth. The world just needs to catch up to it. I mean, I know how they’re gonna, I mean, I must have a precocious child. But, you know that’s how I look at it, you know?

SREENIVASAN:  So you go through school in Nepal and in India, you come to New York, you’re kind of learning the ropes of fashion, you’re interning, you’re going out at night, and you start realizing that there’s still this sort of sense of otherness. There’s a, there’s a quote here: 

“You’re beautiful. I don’t even think of you as Asian.” Even more ridiculous was when whenever, whoever hurled the insult would follow it up with, “Oh, lighten up! You know I love Asians!” Or, “I love sushi!” Or, “I love Indian food!” I cannot tell you how many times someone has said to me, “I’m normally not into Asians, but you are attractive.”

You are still an outsider, even though you know the place, relative to the place you came from, this was probably a very liberating environment. But here you are, finding yourself, wait, what happened?

GURUNG: That’s the thing, com, the complex story about America is that…you know America to me was this like a dream made in technicolor. Like, and this was New York City was where all my heroes were. Like Debbie Harry, Basquiat, Andy Warhol, Marc Jacobs, Madonna, and living in East Village. And, you know, you look at all these colorful misfits, and I was like, I, when I looked at, got a glimpse of New York through, you know a few magazines or like glimpses that I saw, it felt like home to me. It was beckoning to me. When I arrived here – and also, lemme just, let’s just not forget, America has this incredible PR pitch about everyone is welcome here. You know? And the truth of the matter is very complex: everyone is welcome as long as you follow the rules within the boundary, the lines. and as long as you are in close proximity to what they, how they behave, or how they look. 

The minute you are different, you are made directly, or indirectly, aware of your difference. And to me, it was really baffling in the beginning because it was like, alright, wait, wait a second. Like, is this okay for them to say this? You know? And then I realized, I thought it was an isolated thing for me, but it’s like, it is every person of color, every marginalized person go through this in some way or the other. Like, there’s so many times, my friends, you know, they tell me incidents when they’re in their office, they open Indian food, and people will like, what’s that smell? Versus like, what’s this fragrance? It’s those words. You know, like, it’s like, and so it’s, I always felt like that’s why words have power, you know?

And that the word, like from smell to a fragrance is going, goes from a tolerance to celebration. You know? So all that stuff mattered. And you know, you come here and you realize that oh, wow, like the world that I thought I would be completely accepted, it is not accepting me. But then what it does, I’m also incredibly grateful for this country, because in this country is where you can question and write a book like this. When you can question all these ideas and norms that are so preconceived and rooted in this, I would say deep colonial beliefs. That’s what I feel, you know.

SREENIVASAN:  You know there’s, there’s this idea that America has of like the overnight success, right? And by the time, by the time you’re pulling off your kind of magical first show, It’s almost like an entire village, a community of people, was you had collected along the way over years and years of doing all the hard work, really just came out in belief and support of you. But, you know, I wonder about this idea that we have that oh, well, it’s just, you know, this kind of moment. And he just arrived and it just happened for him… 

GURUNG: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it was absolutely, when I started my, as I, like, when I started my brand, it was deep in recession, fall 2009, Bill Blass had closed. I was looking for a job. I went to headhunters. And the reaction that I was getting was, oh, he is not talented enough, or he is not right for us, you know? And so I was like, all right, you know what? Lemme just give it a shot. You know, if it doesn’t work out, I’ll blame it on recession. I went on unemployment. That’s the beauty of this country, is like, you know, you have to have an, that’s the thing about America is, you know, opportunity is just an idea waiting to happen. This luck is just an idea waiting to happen again. I had this idea and I went on unemployment. I, that gave me the strength. Okay. You know, I moved from a massive apartment to a tiny little studio in the East Village, right in front of Hell’s Angels. My friend’s studio like, apartment, became my studio. And, you know, all like, my friends’ gallery became my show space. Everyone came together,

But at the same time, just to see this collective force of people coming, because I had a belief that I had a story to tell, you know? And as I said, like, and maybe perhaps the fact that I come from the part, like from Nepal and India, that part, that continent, I didn’t expect everything to happen in one go. I was very patient about the fact that, you know, I’m okay with building it slowly and surely. But then you know luck had a different thing for me, and it got on the cover of Women’s Wear Daily. Zoe wore it, and it just took off immediately. And to be completely honest, I was just waiting. I was hoping for a line in Women’s Wear Daily to be mentioned about my collection. I got the cover, and that completely changed my life.

SREENIVASAN:  So there is an excerpt in the book about your vision board, what you had kind of set out, <laugh> as, as the goals for yourself. And it says, start a brand check. Get in a few stores, check, make a growth plan. Check dress Oprah, check Michelle Obama, check, check, get in Vogue. Done. Apply for A-C-D-F-A Vogue Fashion Fund. Win a Vogue Fashion Fund. Check, check. Go to the Met Gala several times, check, become the creative director of Chanel (maybe that’s still out there). Yeah. Start a foundation. I mean, you know, when I look at this, and I guess this is a question for maybe to abstract for people beyond just the fashion industry, you have accomplished most of what’s on this list, right? And I, I guess my question is not just what’s your next vision board but how do you find your WHY? 

GURUNG: It’s simple. It was my mother. My mother has been a roadmap for like, you know strength and resilience and everything that I do. She’s been my north star. Anytime that something’s happened, I’ll call her and I’ll be like, you know, Hey mom, this is happening. You know, like, this is so and so celebrity is like wearing my stuff.
And, you know, she’s always been someone who’s celebrates with me, but also says, like, I still remember the thing that changed for me was when she said to me after I dressed Michelle Obama, you know, was she said to me, I’m glad that happened because it was her idea. She was the one who planted the seed of dressing someone like Michelle Obama, because she felt that she you know, former first lady, Michelle Obama was the one that I was describing in the women that I wanted to dress. And then when it happened, she said to me, the success no longer is yours. It just doesn’t belong to you. It belongs to the country, the continent, every marginalized person. Now, what are you going to do with it? Are you going to be keeping it for yourself? Or is it going to be impacting everyone else? And that’s when our foundation, six foundation in Nepal, we started that with my siblings and my friends. 

And my why came not because, oh, I want to be x, y, z million dollar companies, or like, I want to be on, those are all important goals. But my thing was, am I making someone feel seen with through my work? Am I making even one person? Because I know what it feels like to turn the pages of magazines, turn on television, or look at the cover of a book and or, and see empty mirrors reflecting back nothing that looks like you, nothing, you know, that resonates with you.

so my why is less ego driven, but rather like, how do I serve the community, the the people around me? And even far, you know far away. Because I think at the end of the day, that’s our, our job as humans. It’s, we are not living for, just for ourselves. Our, we are vessel for us. Like, you know, servitude and service is, that’s what I believe in

SREENIVASAN:  You’ve been an outspoken advocate for inclusivity and diversity in fashion and design, and you’ve been active in political campaigns, and you’ve gotten pushback from, of course, members of the fashion world say, oh, look, this is Prabal just looking for another publicity cycle. You know, stay in your lane, work on your clothes, don’t do this. And I wonder, as you see the recent administration’s rollbacks on so many of the things that you hold dear, how do you stay engaged? How do you continue your work? What do you see as your place or your responsibility?

GURUNG: I think for anyone who like, looks like me or who don’t look like the majority, our biggest job is to make sure we don’t give into cynicism. You know, we acknowledge all the trauma and everything that we go through, have an open communication within the community and outside of it, but show up unapologetic as ourselves. Because the biggest resistance to the patriarchy, or to the majority, to everything out there that is like in resisting our existence, is showing up unapologetically, unabashedly ourselves. That is a first step towards that. 

…sometimes I think back about that collection though, who gets to be American, and it’s five years later, we still are having that conversation. You know, and, and I think about the the promise and the hope of the, let’s say the Obama era, like the Obama years, like, you know, brought about America and like, you know, and how it gave us hope. And the thing about what often times like America forgets is what happens in America has a ripple effect down the globe, you know, like across the world. 

And so, through my runway shows where the people I dress, for instance, you know, when we go to, when we do the Met Gala, people I dress, people I take as my guest. It’s very diverse. It’s colorful, it’s like exactly like my dinner table. And that’s what I want to show on a runway, simply because if it is possible within the confines of my house, it is possible in the outside world. This colorful, diverse, incredibly amazing people. And the more we see us, the world sees us, the less afraid we are of each other. That’s how I look at it.

And going back to what you asked about, you know, mentioned about how people were saying, oh, it’s for publicity, or this, I always say, for me, it’s my life. It’s my, it is who I am. It has been my existence. And it’s not just a moment, it’s a movement, and it’s more than a movement: it is the way we all exist.

SREENIVASAN:  You go out of your way to say, look, I’m not just in this for the cloth. I’m trying to tell stories, with the types of clothing and the fashion that I’m creating here, I want to tell, especially the stories of Nepal. So how do you figure out what stories to tell?

GURUNG: It’s instinct. You know, the beauty of being a creative person is an artist is your instincts I feel like. We’re, we get the opportunity to hone in our instincts, and we, and I react to not just things that I look that are beautiful, whether it’s paintings or listen to that music, but it’s also political stuff right? Now. I’ll never forget when I did my 10 year anniversary collection, it was after a meeting with a potential investor who asked me what the brand stands for. And I said, you know, know, I want to create a new Americana, because Americana, for the longest period of time, has been dictated by this, you know, these great designers like Donna Karen, Ralph Lauren, and Calvin. You know, but I, the America that I see is insanely immensely and amazingly colorful. And I want to bring that to the forefront and create that new version of Americana.

And I’ll never forget when he turned to me and said, well, you don’t look American. You know, how are you gonna define America? And I said to him like ‘I am an American citizen. You know, I pay my taxes. I make more than 90% of my clothes in America. I’m engaged politically and civilly, everything through my foundation, through everything that I do. And it’s still not enough. What you’re saying is I’m not white. That’s what you’re trying to say.’ And he kept quiet. I’ll never forget, and needless to say I didn’t get that investment obviously, you know. But I remember getting in the cab and I was like, thinking, will it ever be enough?

That triggered me to do a collection called “Who Gets To Be American”, you know? And that collection, my 10 year anniversary collection informed the next year’s Met Gala, you know, and that’s where Andrew Bolton, everyone’s like, you know, said in his notes, like, Prabal Gurung asked this on his runway show. And we are trying to answer this. Not that I knew that was going to have a ripple effect, I was just reacting to something that felt not right for me. You know? And that’s how I look at it, is like, you know, bringing my story from our part of the world is – I keep on saying – you know, look, for the longest period of time we’ve been told East meets West. And I said, no, no, no, the narrative has to change. It’s the West has to meet the East now…because that is, that is what needs to be done. Because East has done the work – the West has to do the work now. 

SREENIVASAN:  The memoir is called “Walk Like a Girl.” Author and fashion designer, Prabal Gurung, thanks so much for your time.

GURUNG: Thank you so much. I really appreciate This means a lot.