DNC Chair Ken Martin on Trump and the Future of the Democratic Party

MICHEL MARTIN: Thanks, Bianna. Ken Martin, Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for speaking with us.

 

KEN MARTIN: Thanks for having me, Michel.

 

M MARTIN: Obviously, when we arranged to have this conversation some time ago, our plan was to talk about your plans for the Democratic National Committee, to talk about some of the disagreements that Democrats had been having. But then of course, over the last few days, you know, we were confronted with the horrific, you know, murder of state representative Melissa Hortman and her husband, and also the, the wounding of state Senator John Hoffman and his wife. You know, thankfully they seem to be recovering, but I know you’d known her for a long time. You’re the former chair of, of the party in Minnesota. So you would just give me your, just give me a memory of Representative Hortman, a longstanding speaker of the house, in fact, one of the longest serving and undertook that position at a relatively young age. So what, what is your most significant memory of her?

 

K MARTIN: Well, thank you Michel, for asking. And let me just say that obviously as a proud Minnesotan you know, my heart breaks, obviously for all of my friends and colleagues back home in Minnesota. Imagine you know, waking up to the news on Saturday, as I did – and many Minnesotans – that there had been a shooting in Minnesota only to find out later that it was at the homes of some legislators. And then only to find out later in the day that two of your very close friends, Melissa and Mark Hortman, who I’ve known over half of my life, were assassinated. And two of my other friends were – they, they attempted to murder them as well.

And Melissa Hortman was an amazing change maker in our state. Shewon in 2004, came into the legislature and immediately started to climb the ranks. In 2018 when we won back the house majority, she became the speaker one of our longest serving speakers and frankly, one of the most consequential.

You know, when Tim Walz was put on the ticket by Kamala Harris last fall, the first call he made after getting the news was to speaker Hortman. And what he said is ‘thank you – thank you for all you did, because if it wasn’t for you, I wouldn’t be on the ticket.’ And that’s true because so much of the remarkable legislation that passed in Minnesota – commonly referred to as the Minnesota Miracle – she was the architect of it. She was the person who not only pushed for it, but was persistent and relentless in making sure that other Democrats understood that power is fleeting, and that when you have power, you have to use it to make the biggest difference for as many people as you could.

And so truly you know, she leaves an amazing legacy, a remarkable legacy that’s going to impact generations of Minnesotans to come. And it’s so devastating on a very personal level to lose someone I was so close to. But for the state, just, she was such an amazing leader. And our heartbreaks all, all Minnesotans, regardless of party are just in pain right now. And I wish I was back home with theM 

 

M MARTIN: I would imagine so. You know, like you and like so many other people, you know, I woke up to this news and, you know, at first I was shocked, but then I thought, should I be shocked? I mean, if you think about it, over the last, you know, months and few years, I mean, there were two assassination attempts directed at, at now-president Trump. I mean, the Governor of Pennsylvania’s home was Firebombed in the middle of the night while his family slept. Not to mention the January 6th mob attack on the Capitol. So I guess what I’m saying is, it’s shocking on the one hand, but is it really shocking? 

 

K MARTIN: Yeah, I think, I think it’s a fair question, Michel. And the reality is, is I, I hear people say in, in both this weekend and even before, that this is not who we are as America. I would say, unfortunately, this is who we are. But it is not who we should be. It’s not who we need to be, meaning that we all have a responsibility. If you reject this type of violence and you don’t wanna see any more of it, we should acknowledge that this is who we’ve become as a country. But it does not mean this is permanent. It does not mean this is who we need to be. It requires all of us in this moment, Michel, to speak out against political violence of any form or any kind. 

 

M MARTIN: So, so let me go back to, to what you think your role is right now. I mean,  I would assume that you didn’t run for the chairman of the Democratic National Committee so that you would be kind of offering condolences to the country at a time like this. But unfortunately, this is your task right now. But on a broader sense, what do you see as your role as chairman of one of the great, you know, political parties in America?

 

K MARTIN: Well, we’re the oldest political party in this country, in the oldest and longest enduring democracy in the world. My role and responsibility right now is, is singular. And that’s to win elections to put us back into power, to actually help us stop this tyrant in the White House and what they’re doing to destroy the values of this great country. And so what does that look like, of course? And, you know for me, it’s a fierce focus on building the infrastructure everywhere. Our philosophy here is very simple: when you organize everywhere, you can win anywhere. And as a result, we’ve already started doing that.

I’m four months on the job, Michel, and we have overperformed, or won in almost every special election on the ballot since Donald Trump was inaugurated. There’s a huge opportunity in every crisis. And right now, that opportunity is that we can expand our coalition to many people in this country right now who either left our party supported Donald Trump and are having buyers remorse, or people who have felt abandoned by our party right now, there’s an opportunity to give them hope again, that their better days are ahead of them, that the Democratic party is fighting for them and their families and their communities.

 

M MARTIN: Okay. You used the word crisis. What is the crisis for the Democratic party? Is it a crisis of brand? Is it a crisis of message, or is it a crisis of ideas?

 

K MARTIN: I think it’s all of it to be, if I’m being honest with you. But let me start with last spring there was research, Michel, that showed for the first time in modern history that the perceptions of the two political parties has flipped. That the majority of Americans now believe that the Republican Party best represents the interests of the middle class, the working class, and the poor. And the Democratic party is the party of the wealthy and the elites. That is a damning indictment on our party for sure. And certainly, you know you know this as well as I do, Michel, most people in this country do not vote on policy and issues; they vote on perceptions and feelings. And there’s many people in this country who are feeling forgotten, who are feeling left behind and feeling like the Democratic party does not represent them anymore, or, or isn’t fighting hard enough for them in their communities. And so, you know, that perception is gonna take time to change.

And so when I say there’s a crisis, there’s a crisis of bringing an identity right now, there’s a crisis of perception, and we have to do a better job of giving people a sense that we’re going to fight hard for them when we’re back in power. And look, in this moment right now, Michel, when things are so chaotic in Washington DC, we also have to stand up and fight against Donald Trump. And you know, the reality is, in 2016, someone said to me that the Republicans are shameless, but the Democrats are spineless. If we’re not willing to stand up and fight hard against Donald Trump right now, how do we believe that the American voters are gonna think that we would fight for them and their families if they put us back in power? But more importantly, more importantly – I, I ask this question everywhere I go to Democrats – if we’re not willing to stand up and fight like hell for the things we believe in, then the question is, do we really believe in them at all? 

 

M MARTIN: Okay, so, so whose fault is this?

 

K MARTIN: I think it’s everyone’s fault. All of us who’ve been involved in this for many years. The reality is, Michel, this is, you know, not a singular occurrence of one election. We’ve been losing ground with people for years. Because –

 

M MARTIN: Because why? Because why? WHY?

 

K MARTIN: Yeah. Well, why? I, I think is, you know, it, it, there’s a multitude of factors of why we’ve been losing ground, right? I would argue one is how we campaign, right? We show up three to four months before an election. The first conversation we have with voters is asking them to do something for our party and candidates, which is to vote for us. Then we don’t show up for two years again. And same time, we have the same conversation. And so voters don’t believe that we actually care about them as people, as humans, that we don’t really invest in their communities, that we’re not invested in their success. Right? And so, you know, part of it is how we campaign. We need year round organizing like we have in Minnesota where the first conversation we have with voters is not transactional, but it’s asking voters what their hopes and dreams are for their communities, and eventually building a relationship around shared values. And after, and only after we’ve earned the right to ask for their vote, asking them to vote for our party and candidates.

And so that –  I would argue one of the reasons we’ve lost is because of the way we treat voters and their communities as just commodities. The second reason I think we’ve lost trust is because when we get into office, we don’t actually deliver on the promises we made.

 

M MARTIN: So, so, so here’s where I have to have to jump in here and just ask, a lot of the, your first four months in office has been taken up with, or at least that we publicly see disputes with other members of the party, people like the outgoing vice chair, David Hogg. Some of what you’re saying about Democrats sort of over promising and underdelivering is exactly what he’s been saying. So what is the, what, what’s the source of the tension here? 

 

K MARTIN: I mean, yeah, look, I’ve never had an issue with what David Hogg is talking about. I think primaries are really important. I think it’s important to hold elected officials accountable. And I also think it’s important to have primaries so we bring new voices into the party process. But let me be very clear. I pushed a neutrality pledge long before David Hogg was ever involved in democratic politics. In 2017, after the 16 election, I was the author of the Super Delegate Reform on the Rules and Bylaws Committee. And I also brought a neutrality pledge forward at that time, because I believe actually the way we win is by expanding our coalition through addition, not subtraction. And that means –

 

M MARTIN: The neutrality pledge means what? That people who are part of the party apparatus party shouldn’t ___ in primaries?

 

K MARTIN: Party, party party officer. Yeah. Party officers shouldn’t – party officers should not be putting their thumb on the scale and picking winners or losers. Our job is to stay out of primary fights and let the will of the primary voters prevail, and then whoever they choose, without interference from party bosses, right? Then we work like hell to get elected. Why does that matter to me? Because just like David, I believe we win through addition, not subtraction. We win by bringing people into the party, not by pushing them out. And that’s how I’ve always led. 

 

M MARTIN: What was so dangerous about his idea? I mean, David Hogg is a young man who first came to public attention as a survivor of the, of the Parkland High School shooting in Florida which is where he went and became active as a lot of young people have around the issue of gun violence, because they are so directly affected in school shootings, which have also tragically become, you know, commonplace, ok? He’s gone to college, he’s now ran for this position in the party, and had this notion of creating a PAC to try to encourage…well, I guess, to challenge incumbents who he felt were under – or who people in the PAC felt were underperforming. Why is that such a bad idea in your opinion?

 

K MARTIN: I didn’t say it was a bad idea. And I think, I think what’s important to understand is that you can’t do both. You can’t be the referee when your job is to actually create a fair and level playing field for all candidates and frankly, their supporters, right, without interference from party bosses, and then also be involved in a PAC that in fact is involved in primaries. You just can’t do both. This was not a question of impugning his motives or what he’s trying to do at all. Only to say that our, we also have a responsibility as party leaders. Our chief responsibility is to stay outta primaries because it’s not up to us to influence it one way or another for an incumbent or a challenger. Our job is to stay out.

Why is it important to stay out? It’s because we don’t want supporters of candidates to feel like their voice didn’t matter, that they didn’t have an opportunity to be heard, that they didn’t have an opportunity to fairly compete for our party nomination. And if there’s anything that’s gonna help us grow the party and bring new voices in, especially voices of younger people who are disillusioned with the party, it’s making sure that party bosses are not putting their thumbs on the scale in any way, shape, or forM And so this is not about impugning David’s motives at all. I am a big fan of David Hoggs, right? This has never been about David Hogg, just the opposite. This has been about my longstanding belief right, for many years that our party should be neutral in primaries, and that our party should be inclusive.

 

M MARTIN: I understand, I understand your point, but David Hogg was elected to that position just as you were. And if that’s a different vision of other people in the party, I understand that you have a strong, strong view of the matter, but he was elected just like you were. Why not just let it play out? And say that’s your –

 

K MARTIN: It did play it, it did play out. It did play out. And David decided to resign his position before there was another vote. 

 

M MARTIN: A CBS News/You Gov poll found that 71% of Democrats and 78% of Americans overall think the party has been ineffective in standing up to Trump. Focus groups led by Anat Shenker-Osorio found voters liken Republicans to lions and Democrats to sloths. So how do you shed that image of, you know, passivity and show that the party can fight?

 

K MARTIN: You gotta get out there and fight. You gotta grow a spine. People gotta throw a punch, right? I mean, I, you know, just a few weeks ago when there was a child who died of measles in Texas, I sent out a tweet that said, Robert Kennedy murdered another child. The first people to complain, of course, were Democrats, right?

 

M MARTIN: What did they complain about? I, what did they, what did they say?

 

K MARTIN: Well, I’ll tell you what some of them said, well, you know, we, we’ve gotta, we’ve gotta preserve the option to work with these folks. You know, we shouldn’t be so aggressive in our messaging. I will tell you this, now is not the time – when we see what’s happening in this country – for Democrats to worry about offending someone to throw a punch and then pull it back because we use the wrong words. You think that Republicans have any compunction when they get into office? No. They rush forward with their agenda, and at the end of the day, they don’t care about offending Democrats or even working with Democrats.

Now, look, Michel, I’m not suggesting at the end of the day that we have to stoop to their level, that we have to lie, we have to exchange misinformation and disinformation, but gosh darn it, we do have to throw a punch. We do have to get out there and fight for our values. We do have to give people a sense that we actually are going to fight for them in their communities, because that’s part of the reason why you see research like that. They don’t believe the Democratic party is actually gonna stand up and fight hard for what they believe in. And at the end of the day, that contributes to those perceptions and feelings that the Democratic party has abandoned them and their families.

 

M MARTIN: And what about on something like immigration where, you know, some of the – clearly some of the behavior that this administration is engaging in is distasteful to many Americans. But other people agree with it. How would you recommend that Democrats navigate that?

 

K MARTIN: Well, look, Democrats have said that we need border security. In fact, they president Biden and others negotiated out with the most Republican conservative member of the US Senate and James Lankford from Oklahoma last year, a bipartisan deal to actually bring forward strict border security and immigration reform who killed that bill? Donald Trump. Donald Trump and the Republicans walked away from it. And guess what? They now have complete unified control of government. Where is their immigration bill? Where is their immigration policy to actually make sure that we have border security? 

 

M MARTIN: Well, their immigration policy is – <crosstalk>

K MARTIN: instead, we have this chaotic,

 

M MARTIN: Well, they’re, look, they argue that their policy is mass deportation. That’s not a secret. I mean, that’s what they’re doing. So –

 

K MARTIN: Right. But my point is, is that policy is chaotic, it’s dysfunctional, it’s not actually helping us solve the issue on the border in any meaningful way. And the point that I’m trying to make to you is that, yes, the Republicans can talk all they want about actually putting policies forward, but what we’re seeing on the streets, when you’re rounding up people indiscriminately, right? When you are essentially creating chaos around this issue, it’s not a long-term solution. It might make you feel good to round people up and say, you’re deporting theM But look what’s happening around this country. Even Donald Trump and the Republicans are losing ground on this issue because they don’t believe that this is the right, right way to deal with immigration and to deal with deportation. We, as a party, of course, we are ready and willing to have the conversation about immigration policy in this country and of course, border security. The Republicans refuse to do it, and instead, what they’re doing is just inflicting chaos and dysfunction throughout this country through these mass deportations that aren’t going to actually solve the issue. It’s making it worse.

 

M MARTIN: Ken Martin, Mr. Chairman, thank you so much for talking with us. I do hope we’ll talk again.

K MARTIN: Thank you, Michel.