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BIANNA GOLODRYGA, ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to “Amanpour.” Here’s what’s coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The data can’t be propaganda. The data has to be something that you could trust.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Trump and his allies go after the numbers. Is the U.S. still heading for the golden age he promise? I asked Nobel Prize winning
economist, Paul Krugman and former White House chief economic adviser under President George W. Bush, Greg Mankiw.
Then —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: In the current unimaginable condition, they may have only days left.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Horror for hostage families and for the Palestinian civilians, as starvation in Gaza continues, time is ticking for leaders to stop the
suffering. Israeli journalist Barak Ravid weighs in on the status of ceasefire talk.
Plus —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: A threat was made by a former president of Russia, and we’re going to protect our people.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: But is Trump’s envoy ready to confront the Kremlin? I speak to Russia expert Alexander Gabuev as Ukraine feels the deadly force of Putin’s
drones.
Also, ahead —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SAMI TAMIMI, AUTHOR, “BOUSTANY”: Cooking and writing about food is — it’s a good tool to — for people to dive deeper into our culture.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: — documenting the dishes of his homeland. Acclaimed Palestinian chef Sami Tamimi tells Michel Martin how he’s keeping his
cultural heritage alive in the midst of war.
Welcome to the program everyone. I’m Bianna Golodryga in New York sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
According to the White House, the U.S. economy is booming. According to data, the U.S. economy is slowing, with one report in particular fueling
concerns about a weak job market. In response, President Trump is hiring a new jobs data chief after firing the person responsible for producing the
numbers he claims were rigged. It’s a move backed by White House economic adviser, Kevin Hassett. Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KEVIN HASSETT, U.S. NATIONAL ECONOMIC COUNCIL DIRECTOR: As an economist, I like to go for what I can prove. And what I can prove is that the datas are
— the data have become very unreliable. They could be politically manipulated because they’re so untransparent. There’s a black box system
out there making the jobs numbers that needs to be improved.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Senate Minority Leader Chuck Schumer is now calling for Hassett to be fired after voicing the fears of Trump’s critics.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY), U.S. SENATE MINORITY LEADER: What does a bad leader do when they get bad news? Shoot the messenger. That’s just what
happened with the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. He ought to start governing like a leader, not like someone who imitates authoritarian
leaders.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Trump is also set to hire a new member of the Federal Reserve’s Board of Governors after a Biden appointee resigned. This as his tariffs
are starting to generate a significant amount of money. So, what exactly is going on in Trump’s economy? Well, here to break it all down, let’s bring a
Nobel Prize winning economist Paul Krugman and Greg Mankiw, who served as chair of the White House Council of Economic Advisers under President
George W. Bush. Welcome both of you.
So, let’s start with the surprise firing Friday of Erika McEntarfer, the head of the Bureau of Labor Statistics. Greg, let me start with you. How
significant of a move was this? What was your reaction? This is traditionally a non-partisan role, and I believe she was confirmed last
year, 86 to eight.
GREG MANKIW, FORMER CHAIR, WHITE HOUSE COUNCIL OF ECONOMIC ADVISERS AND PROFESSOR OF ECONOMICS, HARVARD UNIVERSITY: It was one of the most
petulant acts I’ve ever seen a president engage in. Anyone who’s in dealt with the federal statistical agencies know that they’re run by
professionals. There’s not a shred of partisanship in there that I’ve ever witnessed.
I mean, indeed, I think if the commissioner of the BLS wanted to insert some partisanship, he or she would have a tough time doing it given the
large number of people involved and the very spelled out processes that have occurred.
The fact there are big revisions is not a surprise. It’s probably the case that we have bigger revisions when there’s more uncertainty. And one thing
Donald Trump has generated is a lot of uncertainty about what’s going on in the economy and economic policy.
GOLODRYGA: You, Greg, know firsthand and you’ve seen a president’s reaction when he’s delivered economic news that he may not like, that may
actually even hurt him politically in the job. Have you ever witnessed a situation where a president, President Bush, perhaps was threatening to
fire some of his top economic advisers or the BLS commissioner?
MANKIW: No, never. I remember one time getting a call over dinner from President Bush that the jobs report the next day was going to report that
we — the economy had created 1,000 jobs. And he said 1,000 jobs. It’s almost nothing in the economy of 150,000 workers. So — 150 million
workers, excuse me.
So, no. But he never suggested the data was wrong. He never suggested there was anything going on with the BLS. I’ve never heard of any presidents
suggest anything like that.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. And, Paul, I mean, the president even came out in sort of justifying his firing, claimed that she had provided great news, great jobs
data just before the election. And that was actually not true. I believe the jobs report for last October was even worse than the one that we got on
Friday. Janet Yellen never one to offer hyperbole here, has called this firing the kind of thing you’d only expect in a Banana Republic. Are we at
risk of undermining the credibility of the U.S. economy by moves like this?
PAUL KRUGMAN, NOBEL LAUREATE and Distinguished Professor, Economics, City University of New York: Oh, very much so. I mean, this is — again, very
much. This is Banana Republic stuff. This is — I wrote about it, I called it Caracas on the Potomac. It’s — this is the kind of thing we only see in
authoritarian regimes.
This is — the BLS is the most professional, I mean, as — agency — well, I shouldn’t dis other agencies, but it’s incredibly professional,
incredibly careful. They’re very transparent. Revisions happen because they always have to trade off timeliness against full accuracy. So, they give a
preliminary report each month that is based on what they have at that point. It often gets it always gets revised, at least a little bit.
You have big revisions now because we’re in a very uncertain state. And this kind of revision is typically what happens when the economy is in fact
going through some kind of inflection point. There’s not a hint. I mean, as Greg says, if you — you cannot — to — the idea that they are
surreptitiously on some hidden basis cooking the books, that would be impossible to do without there being lots of buzz about it happening.
And of course, it’s not. And it — you know, Trump had no problem with the numbers when they were good. As soon as they get bad, it’s a conspiracy
against him. And it’s — and, you know, every accusation is actually a confession. Clearly, he’s, now — if you look at what Kevin Hassett is
saying, clearly, he’s hoping to start stuffing the BLS with people who will give him the numbers he wants. And that’s Banana Republic territory.
GOLODRYGA: As someone who’s an experienced economist, Greg, are you surprised to hear Kevin Hassett defend the President’s move? As vigorously
as he has?
MANKIW: Yes, I’ve known Kevin for a very long time and he — I used to think of it as an excellent economist, but he says a lot of things on TV
now as the president’s representative that don’t make a lot of sense to me. And so, he has decided that he values loyalty to the president probably
more so than at a professional economist probably should. He should probably stick to his knitting, make arguments that other economists would
view as credible. I think lately he’s been going off the reservation of what professional economists usually say.
GOLODRYGA: Some even suggesting perhaps he’s doing this because he is eyeing the Fed chief job. We’ll get to that in just a second. But let’s dig
through these numbers, Paul, because they were weak, much weaker than expected, specific — especially when you add the revisions, down by over
250,000 jobs. Goldman Sachs called the downward revisions, quote, “among the largest since 1960,” and rare to see such revisions outside of a
recession.
And it is interesting that it was that point how steep these rescissions — these revisions were that Kevin Hassett pointed out. Well, there must be a
fluke here. The numbers must be rigged. Talk about the state of the U.S. economy from your perspective. Because I was listening to an interview with
Jared Bernstein, an economic adviser to President Biden prior to this jobs report on Friday, and he said he wasn’t worried about an imminent
recession. He was more worried about stagflation. Do these numbers change that?
KRUGMAN: No. I mean, this is not yet recession territory. I mean, even the revised numbers are still positive and it would take a while for it to be –
– actually be a recession. But they are consistent. Two things. They’re consistent with an economy that is slowing, that an economy that is
flattened out, not turned into a nose dive but has flattened out.
And you know, that we have a lot of other data sources. We have interviews. We have surveys of purchasing managers. We have automatic data processing,
which produces its own job numbers. Everybody considers them less reliable than the BLS, but it’s an independent source. And all of the data have been
pointing to a slowing economy.
So, I think Goldman Sachs has said that basically what’s happened now is that the BLS data have come into line with the other information we have.
This is not something that is completely at odds with everything else we’re seeing. On the contrary, it was those strong job numbers that were kind of
inconsistent with what we were seeing elsewhere.
This is — you know, this happens. This is normal. The numbers were — the revision was unusually big, but, you know, these are pretty weird times
with wild changes in tariff rates and all of that. So, you would expect there to be a lot of noise, a lot of things happening. And basically, now
we have a consistent story which says, not that the U.S. economy has fallen off a cliff, but that all of the chaos that we’re seeing in policy and just
generally, the craziness of the world right now is translating into a slow down on job growth.
Nothing sharp. I mean, if this was at odds with everything else we were seeing, then you would say, well, gee, what happened here? But it’s not.
GOLODRYGA: And, Greg ironically, this perhaps could give President Trump what he’s been demanding of his Fed Chair Powell for many, many months now,
and that is cutting interest rates. I believe the odds of a September cuts sharply went up after this jobs report. What should concern the Fed chair?
What concerns you more at this point? Rising inflation or a slowing economy perhaps a slowing jobs market?
MANKIW: Well, the tariffs that we’ve put on sort of pushes the economy in a stagflationary direction. So, it tends to raise inflation and it tends to
slow growth. And so, that gives the Fed a very difficult choice. I think the market’s right that the rate — the chance of a rate cut in the next
meeting has gone up with this jobs report. But they’re also keeping an eye on inflation, and that’s presumably going to start reflecting the effects
of the tariffs in the months that come.
GOLODRYGA: And, Greg, I know you’ve long opposed protectionism, what you view these tariffs to be. Many voters though see them as a way of bringing
back U.S. manufacturing. Is there any political logic at this point to justify some of these tariffs? And going forward, I mean, there’s also the
argument to be made about the revenue coming in that it’s very hard to break off this revenue rush as well.
MANKIW: No, I’m opposed to these tariffs. I think it’s a terrible policy. I do think though that if we end up with 15 percent tariffs and no
retaliation, that’s not nearly as bad as it will look on so-called Liberation Day when tariffs were much higher and it looked likely that a
lot of our trading partners would retaliate.
So, we might end up in an OK place. Not an ideal place, but an OK place. And it’s hard to know exactly how this is going to end up. You know, we’d
have sort of deals with Europe and Japan, not so much with Canada, which is one of our major trading partners. So, maybe he’ll get — Trump will get to
a good — a reasonable place, if not a great place. But I’m still worried. And I think that this whole tariff episode was a step in the wrong
direction.
And partly, they create a lot of uncertainty. And we still have uncertainty. Because remember, these tariffs are being challenged in court.
And until the Supreme Court decides whether Trump has the authority to impose these tariffs, the uncertainty is not going to get resolved.
GOLODRYGA: And the baseline, I think tariffs will likely be fine for the president. I think it was some of the other tariff — or some of the other
tariffs, excuse me, the sectoral tariffs that I think that he is allowed and legally has the right to impose, it is some of these other tariffs that
may actually see an intervention perhaps legally.
Paul, you call this a tax on consumers. Are consumers seeing the full effects of this tax just yet?
KRUGMAN: Not yet. What we see so far in the data is that the United States has borne the cost of the tariffs. There’s basically nothing in the data
saying that foreigners are eating them. But for the moment, U.S. businesses have mostly been eating the tariffs. They have not been passing it through
to consumers, probably because they were hoping that the tariffs would come down a lot. That won’t last.
And you know, if you think that Trump’s blow up over the jobs number is upsetting, wait until we start to see this in consumer prices, which we
almost certainly will, possibly as early as next week. We’re going to get our first — you know, we’re going to get another CPI report on Tuesday.
And — but if not then, then a month or two down the road we’re going to be seeing inflation picking up. And I think it’s a very safe prediction that
Trump will claim that those are rigged numbers and politically motivated. So, we’re going to be seeing a lot of bad stuff.
And look, actually, in terms of the tariffs, how bad are they? You know, if you take a serious economic analysis, I Substack about this over the
weekend. They probably cut a fraction of percent off U.S. GDP in the long run, which is bad, but not horrific.
But it is important to notice that among other things, the United States — you know, we have trade agreements. We have free trade agreements with
Canada, Mexico, and South Korea. We have negotiated trade agreements with almost everybody else and everything that we’ve done is a flat violation.
The United States has just broken trade agreements, which have —
GOLODRYGA: Including an agreement the president himself negotiated during his first term, the USMCA with Canada and Mexico as well.
Greg, before we go, just quickly. You don’t follow — neither one of you follow the stock market, you follow the data. But are you surprised to see
that the markets continue to, at least until now, shrug off this type of jolting headline after headline, the president firing the BLS commissioner,
you know, threatening to fire the Fed chief on and on, these tariffs even, they seem to have factored that all in thus far? And aside from Friday’s
sell off, I believe the markets are even up today. How do you explain that?
MANKIW: There’s lots of things that affect the stock market. So, you’re right, the tariffs are generally negative for the stock market, but I think
the A.I. enthusiasm, I think a bigger event in terms of affecting what’s going on in the market right now.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Never a dull moment. Gentlemen, thank you so much for taking the time. Really appreciate it. Paul Krugman, Greg Mankiw.
Again, rare that both of you would come on and agree on almost every single issue we’ve raised, but thus are the times that we are in. So, appreciate
it and thanks for breaking it down.
KRUGMAN: Thank you.
MANKIW: Thanks a lot.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Stay with CNN. We’ll be right back after the break,
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: President Trump’s special envoy, Steve Witkoff, is going back to Russia. He’ll potentially meet with Vladimir Putin on Wednesday amid
rising tensions between Moscow and Washington. In Kyiv, though there’s little expectation for a breakthrough with the Russian president. There is
hope that the change in rhetoric and Trump’s tougher stance with Putin may lead to increased support for Ukraine and they certainly need it.
Ukrainians continue to pay the price of this war with their lives. 31 people were killed in a Russian strike in an apartment building in Kyiv
last week. Let’s get more now. Alexander Gabuev is director of the Carnegie Russia Eurasia Center. He joins me now from Lisbon. Sasha, it, it is good
to see you.
So, tensions have now been heightened over the few days as a president ordered two nuclear submarines to be positioned, quote, “in the appropriate
regions” on Friday, following inflammatory statements that we’ve all come to know sadly all too well from former Russian president, Dmitry Medvedev.
Here’s how President Trump responded to this.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Former president of Russia who’s now in charge of one of the most important councils, Medvedev, said some things
that it were very bad, talking about nuclear. And when you mention the word nuclear, I say, you know, my eyes light up and I say, we better be careful
because it’s the ultimate threat.
He shouldn’t have said it. He’s got a fresh mouth. He said things in the past too. And so, we always want to be ready. And so, I have sent to the
region two nuclear submarines. I just want to make sure that his words are only words and nothing more than that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: His words typically, at least for the last few we years, several years, have been just that words that he is taken to social media.
I’m talking about Medvedev. Yes, he wants — as president of the country and then he had that famous switcheroo with Vladimir Putin. He’s not known
to be in Putin’s inner circle or very close with him, and thus, many were surprised actually by this move, by President Trump. What was the reaction
in the Kremlin? How did you respond to it?
ALEXANDER GABUEV, DIRECTOR, CARNEGIE RUSSIA EURASIA CENTER: I think that President Medvedev — former President Medvedev has a special role. He is
the troll in chief. So, his mission, partially, is trolling the western establishment and particularly get under the skin of Western leaders,
including President Trump, and scare them with Russian nukes or whatever Russia can do in response for the West, helping Ukrainian self-defense
effort. And this time around, he has finally gotten President Trump’s attention.
I wouldn’t pay too much attention to that nuclear saber-rattling on the Russian side. I think that the military professionals know what the real
signals are and what the fake signals are. The question is whether President Trump distinguishes between them and whether he gets a proper
military advice to what are the Russian signals that you should respond to and react forcefully in order to establish deterrence and what is just
noise, which former President Medvedev obviously is. I hope that he’s getting proper professional military advice.
GOLODRYGA: Maybe you’re not the right person to ask, you focus more on Kremlin insiders and who has Putin’s ear. But who would be advising Trump
about just that?
GABUEV: Well, I think that President Trump has professionals still in uniform in the Pentagon and in the U.S. Intelligence Community. But we
should distinguish between the theatrics of Trump’s reaction to anything. And his real intent to put pressure on the Russian leadership. And for now,
we have yet to see any really powerful steps to put pressure on Russia.
We are in a better place where we have been compared to — after the fallout of President Zelenskyy’s meeting with Trump and his vice president,
J. D. Vance in the Oval Office. The U.S. is back to sharing intelligence. The U.S. is back to supplying weapons to Ukraine. However, all of these
supplies are commercial.
It’s not that the U.S. is ready to — the president is ready to go to the Congress and ask U.S. Congress to pass another supplemental to provide
weapons that are needed to Ukraine. So, with that, Vladimir Putin feels that he is pretty confident that time is on his side and he can dictate the
terms of how the resolution of the conflict and war end will be unfolding. He doesn’t want to see a deal that’s not on his terms. That’s very clear.
GOLODRYGA: So, Putin still feels confident despite this deadline fast approaching on Friday, I believe, that President Trump seemingly out of the
blue made clear, went from 50 days to 10 to 12 days just last week. And that is the threat to impose secondary sanctions unless Russia was willing
to make a ceasefire deal.
Now, he spoke out, President Trump, again today against India in particular, announcing 25 percent secondary sanctions or tariffs on the
country for continuing to purchase Russian oil. Any pressure from that on President Putin though? It doesn’t sound like from your perspective there
is much.
GABUEV: We’ll see whether threat on India actually materializes and how India reacts. It’s very difficult, if not totally impossible, to remove
Russian oil and oil products from the global market without seeing a major growth in the oil prices, which probably President Trump doesn’t want to
see because that will affect the price at the pump in the United States. And he said on multiple occasions that he doesn’t want to see high oil
prices.
So, India and China together import about 80 percent of oil that Russia ships to the global oil market. And with India going away, bulk of that
will flow to China anyway, because China has said very clearly for now that it will not stop buying oil from Russia.
So, if India just turns away from Russian oil and now, it’s about 40 percent of what India imports, that’s a lot. That’s very difficult to
replace, but technically possible if India turns to producers in the Gulf, Saudi Arabia brings some more oil, and the Europeans buy more from the
U.S., it’s possible to bridge this gap for India. But not for India and China together.
And since China is still behind Vladimir Putin, it’s likely that the cash that’s so much needed to fund Putin’s war enterprise will still continue to
flow into the Kremlin’s war chest.
GOLODRYGA: And you obviously are a China expert as well. The same type of threats that President Trump is leveling against India. We haven’t heard
yet against China. They too are in the midst of tariff negotiations and a trade deal, which that deadline is looming as well. Do you see China
perhaps stepping in and supplementing whatever India if they ultimately decide to cut some of their purchase of Russian oil? Do you see China
actually doing that?
GABUEV: I’m not sure that China can fully supplement Russia with what India was buying. And again, India has not cut right its shipments of
Russian oil yet. We’ve heard some news of large Indian oil processing companies shifting to buying some more crude from the Gulf instead of
Russia. But India has not yet announced that it’ll cancel all of its purchases from Russia. And again, that will be technically not impossible,
but really difficult to do.
For China, we’ve heard that in Stockholm when the secretary of treasury was talking to Chinese first deputy prime minister Hu Jeng-feng (ph) who is
special envoy of chairman Xi Jinping in dealing with United States that China is not ready to throw Russia under the bus, including on energy
deliveries.
And it’s unlikely that China will take all of the oil if under hypothetical scenario that India cancels all of the contracts with Russia. But it can
take some. And definitely, even the 40 percent of Russian exports still being able to flow to China will fund Putin’s war machine for the next six
months to one year.
And in the Kremlin calculus, based on everything what we know, that’s more than enough to crush Ukrainian resolve and force Kyiv into negotiation on
Putin’s terms. Whether Putin is right or wrong on this prediction, only time will tell. But at least that’s what the Kremlin is thinking right now.
GOLODRYGA: Yes. As it relates to China, you wrote for The Financial Times, Beijing has demonstrated its ability to create adaptable infrastructure,
designed to support Russia. And this is now going on for over three years. I do want to ask you about what Ukraine needs most of all, and that is
additional aid and military equipment. And as you noted, it doesn’t appear that President Trump is anywhere near going back to Congress and asking for
another supplemental.
But the U.S. Ambassador to NATO, Matt Whitaker, said today that he expects many more countries to announce over the coming weeks that they will
provide funds for the American military to provide equipment and ammunition. Is this plan, do you think something that Putin takes seriously
and is it a new way perhaps to help fund and supply Ukraine with what they need to make this war, at least possible for them to continue fighting in
the weeks and months to come?
GABUEV: I think there are three elements here. Number one, this is a welcome news, and it’s good that European countries are ready to fund
purchases of munitions and various equipment from the U.S. that’s really needed to sustain Ukrainian self-defense effort, particularly we are
talking air defense, Patriots that are nowhere to be found except for the U.S.
And unfortunately, and that’s the second point, a lot of this equipment is in short supply. No military wants to give away its own munition if it
feels that its storage is near empty. And that’s the situation in the U.S. military and that’s the situation in many of the European militaries. So,
we are talking about new orders, not the confidence of these militaries to transfer the existing stash of this vital munitions to Ukrainians. So, here
we might have some delivery problems and the time lag.
And third element, what’s really crucial for Ukrainian self-defense effort right now are drones and investment into drones production. Because the bad
news is that Ukraine was in the lead of drones over the last 2.53 years. But now, Russia is not only catching up but surpassing Ukraine. And unless
there is major inflow of drones and funding into Ukrainian production of drones, Ukraine is really on its back foot and pressed against the wall.
GOLODRYGA: Yes, which is why President Zelenskyy was really pushing for President Trump to join in on investing in Ukraine on a joint drones
project both for Ukraine going forward and the United States. One could say that the drone investment is sort of the new rare earth minerals
investments that President Zelenskyy is trying to in front of President Trump for continued support. Alexander Gabuev, always good to see you.
Thank you so much. Take care.
GABUEV: Thank you so much. Great being with you.
GOLODRYGA: All right. Well, Israel is considering expanding the war in Gaza, this is according to an Israeli official. Prime Minister Benjamin
Netanyahu wants to push for freeing hostages through, quote, “military defeat of Hamas.”
This after shocking video was released by Hamas on Friday, showing two Israeli captives, Evyatar David and Rom Braslavski, emaciated and fragile.
The images have drawn outrage both at home and abroad with French President Macron calling them unbearable.
Tens of thousands of protestors took to the streets in Tel Aviv over the weekend demanding the return of all hostages Meanwhile, Netanyahu’s
government continues to deny claims of starvation in the enclave despite a growing number of humanitarian organizations calling out this manmade
calamity.
Well, as desperate Palestinians risk their lives just to get food with little or no progress on ceasefire negotiations, the nightmare continues
for all in the Strip. Axios Global Affairs Correspondent Barak Ravid joins me now.
Barak, it is good to see you. And first, let me get you to respond to this news that’s Prime Minister Netanyahu is considering expanding a new Gaza
offensive and seizing the entire enclave perhaps. What more are you learning?
BARAK RAVID, GLOBAL AFFAIRS CORRESPONDENT, AXIOS: Well, you know, that’s what his people are saying. And they’re briefing reporters that Netanyahu
has basically made up his mind that he’s going to order a full occupation of the Gaza Strip, including places where the IDF either hasn’t operated in
like the central camps in Gaza or in Gaza City where the IDF operated in the beginning of the war, but hasn’t been operating there for a long time.
And those are regions that the IDF hasn’t been operating in because they believe that there are hostages being held there. And the IDF was concerned
that an operation there will most likely lead to their death. So, now Netanyahu and his people are saying, no, we’re actually considering doing
that. And what Netanyahu and his people are not saying is how is this going to get them closer to getting the 20 live hostages back home alive. And the
families of the hostages are extremely concerned that an expansion of the war into those areas would lead to those hostages being killed by either
Hamas or the IDF military operation.
GOLODRYGA: Just in the last hour, I spoke with the family — brother of actually one of those hostages in that horrible video where you even have
Holocaust survivors coming out and saying that it brings back terrible memories and images for them, and that is of Evyatar David. Hamas released
a video of him, a propaganda video that was too unbearable for his brother to watch. But he did speak out in Israel and then to me in just the last
hour. And here’s what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ILAY DAVID, BROTHER OF EVYATAR DAVID: I don’t think so. That’s why Hamas pulled out of the negotiations recently. That’s why he’s using my brother
in his twisted sick experiment on human lives because he’s not pressured enough, because not enough leverages are putting pressure on him. And right
now, all the leaders of the world, all the leaders of all nations should stand up together, united, and put every ounce of pressure they can on
Hamas. Hamas must be begging for a deal and they must be begging for ceasefire.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: So, you hear that, Barak, and this is something that you have been reporting over the last few weeks, that these current ceasefire talks
in this time around the impediment has been Hamas, that they’re the ones who refused to sign off on a deal. We heard that from Evyatar David’s
brother just now, saying that his brother has days perhaps to live given the conditions that he was in in that video.
What are you hearing about the pressure that’s being put on Hamas? Could more be done perhaps to get them to agree to a deal?
RAVID: First, you know, we all saw those videos of Evyatar David and Rom Braslavski, the two hostages being held by Hamas and the Islamic Jihad. And
I think that when you look at those videos, you realize that any minute is crucial here. And therefore, there needs to be, you know, a deal that would
lead for their release, alive, and bring them back home to the families.
I think that last week when Hamas presented its response to the Gaza deal proposal, it was not a yes. On the other hand, it was not a no. The gaps
remained after Hamas gave its response, but the gaps were not such that you cannot see how you can bridge them. They were bridgeable. And I think that
the fact that Israel and the U.S. decided to pull back from the negotiations was a mistake.
Because when you look 10 days after everything is stuck, there’s a stalemate. And the statement allowed Hamas to change course and start
focusing on the humanitarian crisis in Gaza rather than on continuing the negotiations for the release of the hostages. And I think that the fact
that the negotiations are at a log jam does not serve the interest of the hostages or their families.
GOLODRYGA: Barak, quickly, what is the status currently of the aid situation there in getting more aid into Gaza?
RAVID: So, there’s an international effort to bring more aid in. We’re still waiting to hear what President Trump is going to do. He said on
Sunday that he — the U.S. is going to give more money, but he also said that Israel will have to make sure that people in Gaza are fed. But I think
that more broadly, the main question right now, to me at least, is after six months of this war taking place under President Trump’s watch, the
question is to me whether President Trump is going to continue following Benjamin Netanyahu’s policy or whether he’s going to try and put forward a
new policy and get Netanyahu to align himself with him. It’s still a question mark.
I’m not sure that President Trump supports an expansion of this war, and I think that an expansion of this war, at least in my assessment, would lead
to another year of war in Gaza, which means a total hijacking of Trump’s first half of his second term. And I’m not sure this is something President
Trump wants.
GOLODRYGA: And as you see, you see the data and the surveys and the polls, I’m not sure that it’s something most Israelis want at this point either,
another year of war. Barak Ravid, good to see you. Thank you so much.
RAVID: Thank you.
GOLODRYGA: And we’ll be right back after this short break.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
GOLODRYGA: Well, now as we just discussed, starvation still grips Gaza under Israel’s siege, where the U.N. warms a famine is unfolding before our
eyes. We take a moment to consider the heritage under threat. Traditional Palestinian food has long been a source of identity and memory for the
diaspora. Sami Tamimi is an award-winning chef who was raised in the old City of Jerusalem and uses cooking to tell the story of Palestine. He joins
Michel Martin to discuss his new cookbook, “Boustany,” and the cultural resilience of his homeland.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Bianna. Sam Tamimi, thank you so much for talking with us once again.
SAMI TAMIMI, AUTHOR, “BOUSTANY”: Thank you very much for having me.
NEWTON: Your new book is “Boustany.” What does it mean?
TAMIMI: In Arabic, it means my garden. It’s related to the whole narrative of the book where, you know, I talk about my grandfather’s garden in Hebron
where we used to spend quite a lot of time there, especially in the summer. And I talk about it because it connects to a lot of things. I always kind
of reminisce on food and memories, and this is what really kind of connects me to, you know, Palestine, my family, the heritage, the food as well is
very, very kind of strong element in our kind of culture, but also the family.
And my father just loved his little Boustany or the little garden, a piece of land that he had, and he grew so many things, vegetables and fruit, and
you name it.
MARTIN: You became famous as part of the team at Ottolenghi in London, which is something that, you know, it’s a kind of its own story as a
cultural touchstone, as a place of amazing food. I wondered if — I was thinking about African American food or the food that we call like soul
food, you know, in America. You know, a lot of us grew up eating it and we thought of it as home food. We didn’t think of it as restaurant food. We
didn’t think of it as cuisine.
And I wondered when you were cooking in, you know, these restaurants, you were head chef, you’re in, you know, major cities around the world, you
know, doing your thing, I wonder, did you think of Palestinian food in that way? It’s like, this is for home, whereas this is for work, as different
from work?
TAMIMI: Yes. I mean, there are — have got a lot of dishes that you only eat at home because they are — they — I mean, although they are made with
love, but they are — they take a lot of time and care and sometime they don’t kind of — they’re not suitable for a restaurant serving.
And I kind of — from an early kind of age, I wanted to, I was really loyal to the traditional Palestinian and I wanted to eat it and I wanted to cook
it at home, but I didn’t want to serve it in a restaurant because I wanted to do a mixture of something else to use all the elements, being loyal to
the dishes, but not ruin them.
And we just add in kind of different layers and pictures and flavoring to present it in a kind of restaurant kind of way. We didn’t do that so much
at Ottolenghi. It’s more the cookbooks that kind of started like that.
MARTIN: It just seemed like for years some of these dishes are familiar, but we — it’s sort of been served under the rubric of Mediterranean,
right? Like big part of the world. Big region. Middle Eastern. And I wonder, do you think that people are starting to see Palestinian food as
part of the culture of these people in this place?
TAMIMI: Yes, and thanks to a lot of chefs and authors and people like me who have been writing about it and also because people no longer want to
just kind of — when you present them with a cookbook that kind of Middle Eastern, it’s like where in the Middle East. It’s a huge part of the world
or Mediterranean. Mediterranean run from Europe to the Middle East to the Gulf, to — it’s kind of, you know, half of the world you can kind of put
under the umbrella of Mediterranean.
And I personally don’t like these kinds of cookbooks because they don’t offer you anything that kind of original in a way, they don’t focus on one
place, but also people really want to kind of focus on where it is from. And also, the history of it, the background, the tradition.
People ask me to the day what kind of tahini I use or what the kind of sumac, can you give us a brand, where it comes from. It’s really, really
important for people. And also, Palestinian, because of what’s happening now for so many years, never had the credit for people been borrowing
Palestinian dishes, putting them out there and not giving them their credit. But also, as a Palestinian, I think people were in such a shock of
what happened that food was kind of part of their preservation, but they didn’t think that they needed to protect it and put it out there.
And I see that in writing. I mean, I — this is what I write about Palestinian cooking at the moment because I see it as documenting, first of
all, but also showing that these dishes didn’t just kind of happened. They have their own history, their stories. They’re waving with the whole
culture, the connection to the land, to the farming, to the surrounding, which, you know, really, really important in the whole kind of —
MARTIN: But of course, the whole question of history, story, culture, narrative, what is true and what belongs to whom is so very fraught in this
part of the world. It’s so very challenging and so very emotional. And I remember, honestly, I’ll tell you, I remember we talked about your previous
cookbook, “Falastin,” and I remember getting this angry e-mail from somebody who said, because we were writing — we were talking about
Falastin and Palestinian cookery that I was negating the existence of Israel.
And I was like, huh, can you even talk about history and talk about the — a place without getting — wading into the politics of it?
TAMIMI: I mean, you can’t. Everything that you touched in the region turn into politics. But you can’t also not talk about it because it’s — they
are facts. It’s not something that I make up and just write a cookbook and it’s not my narrative as well. And also, I don’t talk for the Palestinian.
I am one Palestinian man that see the narrative as it is. I don’t make my own narrative to sell a cookbook. They are facts. It’s history. It’s been
written. I just go back and search for it. And I don’t — I have the authority to write a cookbook and write what’s the background, the history.
And you don’t have to try hard to dig into the facts.
MARTIN: Well, I would also say though, that this book is very personal. It’s infused with your memories.
TAMIMI: Yes.
MARTIN: Your memories of experiences, your memories of relationships, your memories of flavors, your memories of how it made you feel. And it reminded
me of so many people that I know who live apart from the place of their birth and also the place of their memory and how the food brings them back
to it.
TAMIMI: Yes. I mean, that’s the thing. When you say Palestine or Palestinian, you get bombarded by lots of kind of negative. And I want to
show how people live in modern town Palestine and talking to all these really inspiring people. They all kind related to food and the way they
live their life. And it’s really, really inspiring because, I mean, I remember a couple of them saying, we don’t want to sit and cry about what
happened. We want to kind of help ourself, the family, our community, our country.
And this kind of really, really kind of important to show to people, because through cookbooks and through — we are connected really strongly.
We all understand that the language of cooking and eating and sharing food and celebrating that and through “Falastin” and now “Boustany,” I wanted to
show another side of the Palestinian, which is not just people being starved and being killed and bombarded, and it’s kind of — there’s quite a
lot of my own memories, but also, they’re related to people that they know, they’re related to my family, my growing — you know, me growing up in
Palestine. And this is something that over generation now that they come is going to get lost and it’s important to write them for next generations.
MARTIN: OK. So, now, let’s talk about some of the recipes. So — well, let us talk about some of your favorites, if I can put you on the spot. And I
also want to know which ones that I can easily make without having to be a trained chef.
TAMIMI: You can do the couscous fritters. I already published a similar recipe, not really similar, but the based on the same dish that my mom used
to make for us as kids. And it’s total comfort. It’s just warm couscous with tomato and onion, and it brings so much joy and comfort. And I wanted
to bring them back because I think people really once to try them, they’re really beautifully cut. It bring you also comfort. But also, I wanted to
bring them back in a different way.
So, I decided to add peppers into them and a lot more heat and shape them in a kind of patties and serve them with a really punchy lemon — preserved
lemon, dill, and capers yogurt. And they’re a hit. And people really love them, but also kids love them.
MARTIN: What about the soups? I mean, I noticed that you said that whenever you’re feeling sad or feeling a little unsettled that you want a
soup. I am the same way. What about a soup?
TAMIMI: I prefer not a super hot, like a temperature hot soup. But freekeh soup, for example, vegetables, which is a very simple soup. Always, it’s
very soothing.
MARTIN: It’s an unsettled time. I mean, it’s a very difficult — difficult doesn’t even capture it. I mean, the words I’m using are just not adequate
to describe the suffering that many people are experiencing.
TAMIMI: I am sad. I am very sad about what’s happening in Gaza and Palestine. But I am a hopeful person. I am positive. And I let my work talk
for itself. I am eager — I’m almost like on a mission now to promote as much of the Palestinian food and culture and this keeps me sane and keeps
me thriving and going forward.
MARTIN: You said — you wrote, once again, I wanted to focus on Palestinian food, not just because of where I come from. I believe that
Palestinian food tradition and culture have a lot to offer the world. They are a great testimony to resilience in a way of preserving food culture by
passing it down through generations. You write, the responsibility of writing these recipes and stories has weighed heavily on my shoulders. And
you say, I hope and wish that many of you try the recipes, read the stories, and want to know more about Palestine, the place, its people, its
culture, and its food, this wonderful place I call home.
Is there a time when you think you’ll be able to go home and feel at home?
TAMIMI: Not as it is now. I — for me, going back — I mean, I get it call — I don’t want to kind of turn it into this kind of political thing, but
for me, going back home, it means that I’m treated like a second-class citizen. I am the known person in my own country, and I still get treated
badly. I couldn’t be as successful if I stayed back home, which is really sad to think about it in a way.
MARTIN: It is. But the book itself is not sad. You talked about the responsibility weighing heavily on you.
TAMIMI: of course.
MARTIN: But like you said, you also don’t want to overshadow the pride and the joy. And so, how do you want us to think about it now that you’ve
gifted us with this? What would you like us as readers and as cooks to draw from this work?
TAMIMI: To cook the food. To really kind of — this is — this connects you also to the whole narrative, the book, but also to the place and to the
people. To cook the food and also read the stories and wanting to know more. And hopefully, you know, people want to kind of read a lot more about
what happened. And it’s not just black and white like we see it nowadays, it’s more — there’s a lot more to it than it is.
But also, cooking and writing about food, it’s a good tool to — for people to dive deeper into a culture, into people, and also to try to understand
what happened. I’m hoping, yes, just for people to cook from it. And, you know, it is deliberately lighter weight than “Falastin” because I wanted to
— because it’s me and because I’m talking about myself and my memories, there’s quite a lot of positive in it and it’s thing — it’s something that
really important for people do kind of also read it and see it.
I am — I cook when I’m happy and I cook better when I’m happy.
MARTIN: Sami Tamimi, thank you so much for speaking with us once again.
TAMIMI: Thank you very much.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: And finally, for us, a 2000-year-old discovery preserved in the ice. A group of scientists have uncovered these tattoos on the remains of a
mummy found in Siberia. And using 3D imaging have reconstructed the intricate ink. Now, look at this, archeologist identified a rooster on her
thumb and leopards and stag on her arms. Even a mythical half lion half eagle creature. That is amazing. And look how well preserved that is. Wow.
Well, that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can
always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
END