September 10, 2025

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. " HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> Translator: WE ARE MOST LIKELY DEALING WITH A LARGE- SCALE PROVOCATION.

>> Translator: THIS MESSAGE SAYS THAT THERE IS A ROGUE PLAYER IN THIS REGION.

>> TWO WARS, TWO CRISES.

NATO MEMBER POLAND SHOOTS DOWN RUSSIAN DRONES INSIDE ITS AIRSPACE.

ALSO, HOW SHOULD AMERICA RESPOND TO ISRAEL'S SHOCKING ATTACKS ON QATAR.

AND THE NEGOTIATING PROCESS.

I ASKED SENATOR ELISSA SLOTKIN.

> >> THEN "WE THE PEOPLE. "

HISTORIAN AND JOURNALIST JILL LEPORE WARNS THE ELITES HAVE NOW TAKEN OVER THE U. S. CONSTITUTION.

> >> PLUS -- >> THESE ARE ESSENTIALLY THE HARDEST MISSIONS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS OR ASKS ITS SOLDIERS TO DO.

>> THE SECRET AMERICAN MISSION IN NORTH KOREA THAT WENT BADLY WRONG.

INVESTIGATIVE JOURNALIST MATTHEW COLE TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT HIS QUEST TO UNCOVER THE TRUTH.

> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. " IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A.

AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS MARK J. BLECHNER THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION SETON J. MELVIN THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

TWO MAJOR CONFLICTS NOW AT RISK OF SPINNING OUT OF CONTROL.

THE POLISH PRIME MINISTER SAYS HIS COUNTRY IS THE CLOSEST IT'S EVER BEEN TO OPEN CONFLICT SINCE WORLD WAR II AFTER NATO FIGHTER JETS WERE FORCED TO TAKE OUT RUSSIAN DRONES WHICH WERE FIRED INTO ITS AIRSPACE.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> Translator: WE ARE MOST LIKELY DEALING WITH A LARGE-SCALE PROVOCATION, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, WE'RE IN CONSULTATION WITH OUR ALLIES.

I'M IN CONSTANT CONTACT WITH THE NATO SECRETARY GENERAL.

THIS IS SO THAT WE CAN RESPOND TO THIS TYPE OF THREAT AS EFFECTIVELY AS WE DID TONIGHT.

>> AND HIS FOREIGN MINISTER RADOSLAV SIKORSKY SAID POLAND HAS NO DOUBT THE DRONES FLYING INTO ITS TERRITORY WERE NOT AN ACCIDENT.

RUSSIA DENIES THAT.

AND AFTER ANOTHER MASSIVE AERIAL BOMBARDMENT OF UKRAINE, UKRAINE'S FOREIGN MINISTER WARNS PUTIN'S SENSE OF IMPUNITY KEEPS GROWING.

> >> MEANWHILE, ISRAEL'S UNPRECEDENTED ATTACK ON DOHA, TARGETING HAMAS NEGOTIATORS, IS BEING QUESTIONED AT HOME AND BEING CONDEMNED ABROAD.

HERE IS PRESIDENT TRUMP.

>> I'M NOT THRILLED ABOUT THE WHOLE SITUATION.

IT'S NOT A GOOD SITUATION.

BUT I WILL SAY THIS.

WE WANT THE HOSTAGES BACK, BUT WE ARE NOT THRILLED ABOUT THE WAY THAT WENT DOWN TODAY.

>> QATAR'S GOVERNMENT MIGHT HAVE HOPED FOR A STRONGER CONDEMNATION FROM THE U. S. THEY CALL IT A FLAGRANT VIOLATION OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

AND IN A MOMENT, WE WILL DIG IN TO ALL OF THIS WITH SENATOR ELISSA SLOTKIN.

> >> BUT FIRST, LET US TURN TO POLAND AND NICK PATON WALSH WHO IS FOLLOWING THE STORY AND FILED THIS REPORT.

>> BEHIND ME HERE IS A MEETING OF WHAT'S CALLED THE E-5, TOP EUROPEAN DEFENSE OFFICIALS.

THE POLISH DEFENSE MINISTER HAD TO RUSH BACK TO DEAL WITH THE CRISIS IN HIS OWN COUNTRY.

THE FRENCH MINISTER NOW THE PRIME MINISTER.

STILL A MESSAGE OF UNITY THEY'RE TRYING TO GIVE OUT.

THE UK SECRETARY OF DEFENSE JOHN HEALEY CALLING THIS A NEW LEVEL OF HOSTILITY FROM RUSSIAN PRESIDENT VLADIMIR PUTIN AND SAYING THAT THE ACTIONS TAKEN BY NATO JETS, DUTCH AIRCRAFT SCRAMBLED TO INTERCEPT THESE DRONES MARKS THE FIRST DEFENSIVE ACTION OF ITS KIND SINCE RUSSIA INVADED UKRAINE.

WHAT WE KNOW IS DURING THE NIGHT, 19 INTRUSIONS WERE RECORDED BY POLAND INTO THEIR AIRSPACE.

THAT MAY NOT MEAN 19 SEPARATE DRONES, BUT CERTAINLY FOUR OF THEM SHOT DOWN ACCORDING TO SOME INITIAL POLISH OFFICIAL REPORTS.

AND INDEED, DAMAGE DONE TO CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE FROM THAT DEBRIS FALLING.

EXTRAORDINARY.

YOU CAN SEE SOME OF THE VIDEO.

THE NOISES WE'VE BECOME ACCUSTOMED TO HEARING OVER UKRAINE NOW OVER NATO TERRITORY.

RUSSIA'S MINISTRY OF DEFENSE REFERRED TO FOR ANSWER ON THIS BY THE KREMLIN SAID THEY DID NOT INTEND TO TARGET POLISH SITES.

THAT'S NOT THE SAME AS SAYING THEY DIDN'T INTEND TO SEND DRONES INTO POLISH AIRSPACE.

BUT THEY ALSO SAY THEY'RE OPEN TO DIALOGUE WITH POLAND ON THIS MATTER.

POLISH AIRSPACE CLOSED DURING THE BID TO COUNTER THESE DRONES.

EXTRAORDINARY TO EVEN IMAGINE, FRANKLY, THIS MOMENT OF NATO'S EASTERN FLANK SECURITY BEING IN DOUBT THIS FAR INTO RUSSIA'S INVASION OF POLAND.

A SIGNIFICANT ESCALATION BY MOSCOW, WHETHER THEY TRY TO SUGGEST THIS WAS POTENTIALLY A NAVIGATIONAL ERROR OR THE RESULT OF GPS JAMMING OR SOMETHING, AS THEY MAY DO IN THE DAYS AHEAD.

CLEARLY DESIGNED MOVE HERE TO TEST NATO'S RESPONSE.

SO FAR, WHEN I STEPPED OUT OF HERE, WE HAVE NOT HEARD OF CONCRETE MEASURES POTENTIALLY FROM NATO TO RESPOND TO THIS, ALTHOUGH THE UK DEFENSE MINISTER DID SAY THEY WOULD BE INSTRUCTING WAYS OF BOLSTERING POLAND'S AIR DEFENSES.

BUT A REAL MOMENT OF TEST HERE CERTAINLY FOR THE WHITE HOUSE AS WELL.

I SHOULD REMIND EVERYBODY ON SUNDAY, WHEN ASKED AFTER THE PRETTY HORRIFIC RECORD ASSAULT AGAINST KYIV, PRESIDENT TRUMP WAS ASKED IF HE WAS READY FOR THE NEXT WAVE OF SANCTIONS AGAINST RUSSIA.

HE SAID HE WAS.

HE SAID HE TALKED TO VLADIMIR PUTIN VERY SOON.

HE SAID VERY SOON LEADERS WERE GOING TO D. C. TO TALK ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED.

NONE OF THAT HAS HAPPENED NOW ON WEDNESDAY.

HE SAID THOSE VISITS WOULD OCCUR BY TUESDAY.

A LOT OF QUESTIONS NOW AS TO TRUMP'S RESPONSE, WHETHER THERE WILL BE A UNIFIED NATO RESPONSE, INCLUDING THE U. S. TO THIS EXTRAORDINARY UNPRECEDENTED VIOLATION OF POLAND'S AIRSPACE.

I SHOULD POINT OUT, THERE ARE MANY CONCERNED THAT THIS JUST MAY BE THE BEGINNING THAT RUSSIA MAY BE TRYING TO TEST AND SEE WHAT PUSHBACK IT GETS FROM NATO FROM TRYING SOMETHING LIKE THIS, AND IT MAY AGAIN TRY TO VIOLATE POLAND OR OTHER EASTERN NATO MEMBERS' AIRSPACE.

AND INDEED, I SHOULD ALSO POINT OUT FOR EVERYBODY THAT THIS WAS PART, IT SEEMS, THESE DRONES LAUNCHED AS PART OF ANOTHER SUBSTANTIAL ATTACK AGAINST UKRAINE.

400 DRONES LAUNCHED THAT SAME NIGHT.

THE FACT THAT SOME OF THEM STRAYED INTO NATO AIRSPACE A REMARKABLE SENSE THAT THE KREMLIN FEELS BUOYED, FEELS AFTER THE SUMMIT EARLIER THIS MONTH THAT IT HAS POSSIBLE SUPPORT FROM CHINA AND INDIA, AND CERTAINLY WE'VE SEEN OVER THE PAST 48 HOURS WITH 24 PENSIONERS KILLED IN A SINGLE STRIKE IN DONETSK BY A RUSSIAN AERIAL BOMB, MOSCOW UPPING ITS AGGRESSION RATHER THAN THE OPPOSITE.

>> SO NICK PATON WALSH LAYING ALL THAT OUT FOR US.

AND HOW WILL NATO RESPOND TO THIS MAJOR ESCALATION BY RUSSIA?

AND WILL THE U. S. START USING ITS UNIQUE LEVERAGE WITH ISRAEL?

OUR NEXT GUEST IS CALLING FOR JUST THAT, EVEN BEFORE THE LATEST ATTACK IN QATAR, MICHIGAN DEMOCRATIC SENATOR ELISSA SLOTKIN SAID "IT APPEARS THAT THE NETANYAHU GOVERNMENT THINKS THAT THERE ARE NO LIMITS TO WHAT THEY CAN DO WHILE STILL RECEIVING U. S. SUPPORT. "

SO I DO BELIEVE A MESSAGE HAS TO BE SENT.

AND AS A MEMBER OF THE SENATE COMMITTEE ON ARMED SERVICE, SHE IS WELL PLACED TO ANSWER HOW NATO SHOULD RESPOND TO RUSSIA'S ESCALATION AS WELL.

SENATOR SLOTKIN JOINS ME NOW FROM WASHINGTON.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, SENATOR.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> SO I WANT TO ASK YOU AS AN AMERICAN RATHER THAN A DEMOCRAT OR A REPUBLICAN, YOU ARE A DEMOCRATIC SENATOR, BUT THIS SURELY IS A MOMENT OF TRUTH FOR AMERICA AND ITS ALLIANCES.

AND I WANT YOU TO PICK WHICH ISSUE TO TAKE FIRST.

I CAN'T TELL WHICH IS MORE IMPORTANT OR MORE DANGEROUS, ISRAEL'S UNPROVOKED, UNPRECEDENTED ATTACK ON NEGOTIATORS IN U. S. ALLY QATAR WITHOUT EVEN TELLING THE U. S. , OR RUSSIA'S MAJOR ESCALATION INTO NATO AIRSPACE.

>> YEAH, WELL, I CERTAINLY THINK THE RUSSIAN ESCALATION IS THE NEWEST ITEM, BUT IT IS KIND OF INTERESTING AND IRONIC THAT ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING AT THE SAME TIME.

I THINK WITH RUSSIA, IF YOU JUST REVIEW THE DATA POINTS FROM TRUMP ROLLING OUT THE RED CARPET FOR PUTIN.

WE KNOW HE WANTS TO WIN THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR HIS WORK ON BRINGING AN END TO WAR THERE AND IN THE MIDDLE EAST.

HE ROLLS OUT THE RED CARPET.

HE COZIES UP TO HIM.

AND THE DATA POINTS SINCE THEN ARE BASICALLY LIKE A THUMB IN THE EYE TO TRUMP.

PUTIN GOES AND DOES THIS BIG EVENT WITH THE CHINESE LEADERSHIP.

HE LAUNCHES THE LARGEST ASSAULT ON KYIV SINCE THE BEGINNING OF THE WAR.

AND NOW IS TESTING, LIKE A TODDLER, THE SORT OF NATO LIMITS BY SENDING DRONES OVER.

AND I'M GLAD THAT THE ES HAVE CALLED FOR CONSULTATION.

I PERSONALLY THING WE HAVE TO SEND A STRONG MESSAGE BACK TO PUTIN BECAUSE HE IS CLEARLY WALKING ALL OVER PRESIDENT TRUMP.

AND, YOU KNOW, I DON'T THINK A NOBEL PRIZE IS IN HIS FUTURE FOR THE PRESIDENT.

SO IT IS INTERESTING DEVELOPMENT THAT WE NEED TO RESPOND TO.

>> SO CALLING FOR CONSULTATIONS IS OFFICIALLY KNOWN AS ARTICLE 4.

THAT WOULD POTENTIALLY LEAD TO ARTICLE 5, WHICH, SENATOR, YOU REMEMBER THE TIME PRESIDENT BIDEN AND ALL THE NATO LEADERS IN THE EARLY YEARS OF THIS WAR SAID NOT ONE INCH.

IF RUSSIA STRAYED ONE INCH INSIDE NATO TERRITORY, WHETHER BY AIR, LAND, OR SEA, THEN IT WOULD TRIGGER A FULL NATO RESPONSE.

I MEAN, LOOK, IT'S DAMNED IF YOU DO AND DAMNED IF YOU DON'T.

I KNOW NOBODY WANTS TO GO TO DIRECT WAR WITH RUSSIA, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, WHAT IS THE SIGNAL, THEN, THAT YOU SAY NEEDS TO BE SENT NOW?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY I THINK THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN DRAGGING HIS FEET ON A BIPARTISAN PROPOSAL ON ANOTHER ROUND OF SANCTIONS.

THE BILL IS READY TO GO.

IT'S COLED BY BOTH THE DEMOCRAT AND REPUBLICAN.

WE COULD DO THAT TOMORROW AND THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN RELUCTANT TO DO THAT, THINKING HE CAN BE THE ONE WHO KIND OF CONVINCES PUTIN TO THINK --TO LISTEN TO HIS BETTER ANGELS.

I THINK THE OTHER THING THAT'S EXTREMELY IMPORTANT IS THAT WE HAVE TO HAVE ALL OF OUR NATO ALLIES RIGHT THERE ON THE EASTERN FLANK WITH A MUCH STRONGER MILITARY POSTURE.

AND THE POLES DID A DECENT JOB OF TRYING TO REACT WHEN THE DRONES CAME FROM TWO DIFFERENT DIRECTIONS INTO THEIR TERRITORY.

THEY NEED TO BE ON HIGHER ALERT AND JUST START SHOOTING ANYTHING DOWN THAT COMES OVER THEIR AIRSPACE, AS LONG AS IT CAN BE SAFELY DONE.

SO A MORE AGGRESSIVE DEFENSE POSTURE AT A MINIMUM, BUT SANCTIONS FOR ME ARE --THIS IS THE MOMENT IN MY MIND THAT WE ACTUALLY DO WHAT WE'VE BEEN PROPOSING FOR THE LAST EIGHT MONTHS AND DO ANOTHER ROUND OF SANCTIONS ON THE RUSSIANS.

>> AND ACTUALLY, PRESIDENT TRUMP PUT OUT ON TRUTH SOCIAL I THINK HIS CONDEMNATION RUSSIA INVADING POLAND'S AIRSPACE THERE.

SO IT WILL BE INTERESTING TO SEE IF HE FINALLY STOPS GIVING EXTENDED DEADLINES TO PUTIN AND ACTUALLY DOES SOMETHING TO STOP HIM.

YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY IT'S ALL ABOUT POLAND IS THE TRANSIT PLACE FOR NATO WEAPONRY AND EQUIPMENT INTO UKRAINE.

UKRAINE HAS SUFFERED INCREDIBLE AS YOU SAID UPTICK IN TARGETING, INCLUDING A LOT OF GOVERNMENT TARGETS, A U. S. TARGETS INSIDE UKRAINE, EUROPEAN TARGETS INSIDE UKRAINE, CIVILIAN TARGETS.

SO DO YOU THINK APART FROM SANCTIONS, IT'S ALSO CALLING OUT FOR MASSIVE INFUSION OF AIR DEFENSE SYSTEMS AGAIN?

>> WELL CERTAINLY I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THE -- IF YOU'RE THE UKRAINIANS, IF YOU'RE NATO MEMBERS, MANY PEOPLE HERE IN THE UNITED STATES, WE THINK WE HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO HELP A DEMOCRACY DEFEND AGAINST THE INVASION BY AN AUTOCRACY.

SO I THINK THERE IS A STRONG SUPPORT FOR THAT, CERTAINLY IN A PLACE LIKE MICHIGAN WITH AS MANY AS UKRAINIAN MICHIGANDERS WE HAVE.

I THINK THE LAST ADMINISTRATION STRUGGLED WITH THIS BECAUSE AMERICA IS NOT LOOKING TO GET INTO A HOT WAR WITH RUSSIA, BUT THERE IS CERTAINLY MORE WE CAN DO TO HELP THE UKRAINIANS DEFEND THEMSELVES.

AND BY THE WAY, THEY'VE BEEN ABSOLUTELY IMPRESSIVE ABOUT HOW THEY'VE GOTTEN CREATIVE, HOW THEY'VE ADAPTED COMMERCIAL TECHNOLOGY, HOW THEY'VE TAKEN RISKS AND GONE BOLD INSIDE OF RUSSIA.

YOU HAVE TO GIVE THEM CREDIT.

AND I THINK A LOT OF MILITARIES ARE LEARNING FROM WHAT THEY'VE BEEN DOING.

BUT I THINK THERE IS MORE THE UNITED STATES AND NATO CAN DO.

AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES RUNS OUR FOREIGN POLICY.

HE HAS TO MAKE THAT DECISION, THAT TURN.

YOU KNOW, HE TOLD HIS BASE THAT HE WAS GOING TO GET OUT OF THE WAR, THAT HE WAS DONE WITH UKRAINE, THAT HE WAS GOING TO QUICKLY BRING IT TO AN END.

PUTIN IS LITERALLY DANGLING IN FRONT OF HIS FACE THIS CHALLENGE.

AND THE QUESTION IS WHAT IS HE GOING TO DO ABOUT IT.

OBVIOUSLY, I HOPE HE HAS A CHANGE OF HEART AND HE HELPS THE UKRAINIANS IN A VERY SERIOUS WAY.

BUT TO ME THIS IS A VERY OPEN QUESTION.

PUTTING OUT A TWEET IS ONE THING.

ACTUALLY CHANGING YOUR POSTURE TOWARDS PUTIN WOULD BE SOMETHING VERY DIFFERENT.

>> AND NOW, WHAT ABOUT THE OTHER ESCALATION WHERE THE U. S. HAS DIRECT LEVERAGE.

DOESN'T NEED TO GET INTO A WAR TO DO THIS, BUT HAS DIRECT LEVERAGE WITH ISRAEL BECAUSE OF MAJOR FINANCIAL AND MILITARY BACKUP.

AND APPARENTLY AND TRUMP ALLUDED TO BEING VERY UPSET ABOUT THIS, SET OFF ITS ATTACK ON A RESIDENTIAL BUILDING IN DOHA WHERE NEGOTIATORS WERE STUDYING APPARENTLY THE LATEST PEACE OR WHATEVER, CEASEFIRE PROPOSAL.

THE U. S. DIDN'T KNOW.

THEY WERE INFORMED APPARENTLY AS THIS THING WAS UNDER WAY.

WHAT SHOULD THE U. S. POSTURE BE NOW?

>> WELL, CERTAINLY I THINK WE SHOULD RECOGNIZE THAT THIS IS ALSO A CHANGE.

I MEAN, TO REVIEW THE BIDDING, THE UNITED STATES ASKED THE QATARIS YEARS AGO TO SET UP AN OFFICE SO THEY COULD ENGAGE WITH HAMAS, RIGHT.

YEARS AND YEARS AGO, ISRAELIS AND OTHERS NEEDED A PLACE WHERE THEY COULD NEGOTIATE.

WE NEEDED A PLACE WHERE WE CAN HAVE THESE CONVERSATIONS, AND WE ASKED THE QATARIS TO SET UP A LOCATION IN THEIR OWN COUNTRY.

THE PLACE OF THE ATTACK TODAY WAS IN A WELL-HEELED NEIGHBORHOOD --OR ATTACK YESTERDAY, EXCUSE ME, A WELL- HEELED NEIGHBORHOOD 18 MILES FROM THE EL EDIED AFTERNOON BOYS.

THIS IS A PARTNER IN QATAR THAT WE WORK WITH QUITE A BIT AND DEPEND ON FOR THE SAFETY OF OUR AMERICAN SOLDIERS THERE.

SO IT IS DEFINITELY A BIG MOMENT.

WE HAVEN'T HAD ISRAEL TAKE MILITARY ACTION, OVERT MILITARY ACTION AGAINST A GULF STATE TO MY KNOWLEDGE EVER.

AND CERTAINLY USING FIXED-WING AIRCRAFT IS A MAJOR DECISION.

YOU HEARD A PRETTY STRONGLY-WORDED STATEMENT FROM THE PRESIDENT TODAY ABOUT NOT APPROVING THE STRIKE, NOT KNOWING, AND THIS NOT MOVING US ANYWHERE POSITIVE TOWARDS PEACE.

IT TOOK OUT FROM WHAT I UNDERSTAND SOME LOW-LEVEL MEMBERS, BUT NOT LEADERSHIP.

BUT THE IDEA THAT WE'RE GOING TO HAVE A NEGOTIATED END TO THIS WAR NOW SEEMS FURTHER OFF THAN CERTAINLY IT WAS.

AND THE UNITED STATES IS, AGAIN, HAS SOME DECISIONS TO MAKE.

I CAN ONLY IMAGINE WHAT THE CONVERSATIONS HAVE BEEN BETWEEN THE WHITE HOUSE AND BIBI NETANYAHU SINCE THIS PUTS PRESIDENT TRUMP AGAIN IN A REALLY TOUGH SPOT.

HE SAID HE WAS GOING SOLVE THIS CRISIS IN DAY ONE.

AGAIN, HE WANTS THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE TO SOLVE THIS LONG-STANDING PROBLEM.

AND WE SEEM MUCH FURTHER FROM THAT THAN WE DID TWO DAYS AGO.

>> LET ME ASK YOU, PRESUMABLY --WELL, I'M GOING TO ASK YOU.

DO YOU CONDEMN THIS FIXED-WING UNPRECEDENTED -- >> YES.

>> SAY THAT AGAIN?

>> YES.

IT DOES NOTHING POSITIVE.

IT OPENS UP SORT OF A NEW CHAPTER IN THE MILITARIZATION AND CONFLICT IN THAT REGION IN GENERAL.

AND IT'S WITH AN AMERICAN PARTNER THAT WE HAVE REAL EQUITIES WITH.

SO I THINK THAT IT IS A BARE MINIMUM JUST NOT SUPPORTIVE OF THE GOALS THAT CERTAINLY THE UNITED STATES HAS, AND I WOULD HOPE THAT ISRAEL WOULD HAVE.

AND I THINK IT'S RIGHT THAT THE PRESIDENT HAS BEEN PRETTY VOCAL TODAY PUBLICLY WITH THE ISRAELI LEADERSHIP.

>> ALSO ADDING THAT OF COURSE THE HOSTAGES HAVE TO COME BACK.

AND OF COURSE, EVERYBODY BELIEVES THAT THAT SHOULD HAPPEN.

AND THAT'S WHAT WAS UNDER NEGOTIATION.

ONE MOTHER, ONE ISRAELI MOTHER SAID OF THIS ATTACK ON QATAR, "NETANYAHU HAS EXECUTED MY SON. "

NOW THAT IS THE ANGUISH OF A MOTHER WHO IS VERY AFRAID OF WHAT MIGHT BE THE FALLOUT FROM THIS ATTACK ON HAMAS.

SO, AGAIN, THE U. S. HAS LEVERAGE.

YOU BELIEVE IT SHOULD PUT SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA FOR WHAT PUTIN IS DOING.

SHOULD IT, AS YOU SAID YOU WOULD HAVE VOTED TO DO IN JULY SUSPEND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS TO ISRAEL?

WHAT SHOULD IT DO?

BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHILE WANTING TO END THE WAR, AND WANTING AS YOU SAID THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE, HE'S ALSO ALLOWED NETANYAHU --HE HAS GIVEN HIM THE REINS.

HE HAS GIVEN HIM THE SPACE TO ESSENTIALLY DO WHAT HE WANTS.

>> UH-HUH.

WELL, LOOK, ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES ARE LONG-TERM ALLIES, AND WE TYPICALLY HAVE TOUGH CONVERSATIONS IN PRIVATE.

TODAY YOU SAW THOSE TOUGH CONVERSATIONS HAPPEN IN PUBLIC, AND I HOPE THAT THAT IS AN IMPORTANT MOMENT FOR THIS PRESIDENT, PRESIDENT TRUMP TO START USING SOME OF THAT LEVERAGE IN PRIVATE CONVERSATIONS.

TO BE HONEST, VOTING ON IT IN THE SENATE, IT'S SOMETHING THAT WE CAN DO, BUT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES DIRECTS FOREIGN POLICY IN THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA, AND WE HAVE TREMENDOUS LEVERAGE TO HAVE REALLY TOUGH CONVERSATIONS WITH BOTH ALLIES AND ADVERSARIES.

AND I THINK TO ME, THE PRESIDENT SHOULD BE USING SOME OF THAT LEVERAGE.

EVERYONE WANTS A FINAL HOSTAGE DEAL TO BRING PEOPLE HOME, ALL THE HOSTAGES, ALL AT ONCE.

AND HAMAS COULD END THIS WAR TOMORROW IF THEY JUST GAVE UP, DID THE RIGHT THING AS LEADERS AND SAID WE'RE NOT GOING TO CONTINUE THE SUFFERING OF PALESTINIANS BY, YOU KNOW, DRAGGING THIS OUT AGAIN FOR A FURTHER -- WE'RE TWO YEARS INTO THIS RIGHT NOW.

THEY COULD END THIS IMMEDIATELY.

BUT I ALSO THINK THAT GOING AFTER AND TAKING MILITARY ACTION IN A PARTNER NATION THAT'S TRYING TO HOST THESE NEGOTIATIONS, IT JUST TAKES US FURTHER AWAY FROM PEACE.

>> SO YOU VOTED TO --YOU WOULD HAVE VOTED TO SUSPEND OFFENSIVE WEAPONS YOU SAID BECAUSE OF THE HUMANITARIAN CRISIS, EVEN BEFORE THIS CURRENT CRISIS, THE STARVATION, ET CETERA IN GAZA.

DO YOU THINK THE U. S. SHOULD DO THAT NOW, THE SENATE SHOULD VOTE, THE PRESIDENT SHOULD DO THAT?

>>, AGAIN, THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES COULD SOLVE THIS PROBLEM BY HAVING FIRM CONVERSATIONS WITH BIBI NETANYAHU TOMORROW.

THE VOTES COME UP HERE BECAUSE THAT'S OUR ONLY HOOK INTO FOREIGN POLICY, THIS ISSUE, WHATSOEVER.

BUT THE TOOLS ARE AT THE PENTAGON, AT THE CIA, AND AT THE WHITE HOUSE IN TERMS OF THE THINGS THAT WE SHARE.

THOSE CONVERSATIONS CAN BE HAPPENING TOMORROW IF THE PRESIDENT IS ACTUALLY GOING TO FOLLOW UP HIS WORDS FROM TODAY WITH BIBI.

>> SO LET ME ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU HAVE WRITTEN A MAJOR NEW PAPER ABOUT YOUR VISION.

AND LET'S NOT FORGET, YOU WERE A PENTAGON ANALYST, A CIA ANALYST, YOU'VE BEEN IN THE FIELD.

YOU UNDERSTAND THESE THINGS, AND YOU'RE ON THAT SENATE ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE.

A NEW SORT OF IDEA FOR A NEW FOREIGN POLICY.

THREE BIG THINGS.

JUST LET ME KNOW -- LET US KNOW WHAT YOUR VISION IS.

>> YEAH.

WELL, LOOK, WE'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT MILITARY ACTIVITY FOR THE FIRST COUPLE OF MINUTES HERE.

BUT I THINK WHEN I TOOK A BREATH AND SAID LOOK, THERE IS A LOT OF FIGHTING IN WASHINGTON.

WE'RE NOT DEALING WITH THE STRATEGIC ISSUES WE SHOULD BE.

IF I'M QUEEN FOR THE DAY, WHAT WOULD BE THE FOREIGN POLICY AND THE NATIONAL SECURITY APPROACH THAT I WOULD DO AND HOW WOULD IT BE DIFFERENT?

I REALLY WENT BACK TO BASICS.

AND THE MILITARY STUFF THAT WE'RE ALL TALK ABOUT IS PART OF THE ISSUE, BUT NATIONAL SECURITY HAS CHANGED BECAUSE THE WORLD HAS NGED.

WE NOW HAVE ECONOMIC SECURITY FOR ME IS THE NUMBER ONE ISSUE IN THE UNITED STATES.

THE SHRINKING MIDDLE CLASS IS THE REASON WE'RE HAVING THIS FRACTIOUS AUTHORITARIAN MOMENT IN OUR HISTORY AT THIS MOMENT IN AMERICA.

AND IF WE DO NOT STRENGTHEN AND GROW THAT MIDDLE CLASS, WE'RE IN TROUBLE AS A DIVERSE NATION.

NUMBER TWO, WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THAT WE ARE IN A TECH ARMS RACE ALREADY.

THE TECHNOLOGY PARTICULARLY AI ARE GOING TO COMPLETELY CHANGE WHAT WE MEAN BY WARFARE.

CYBER ATTACKS, WHICH ARE ALREADY AFFECTING EVERYONE THAT I KNOW, BUT ATTACKS ON OUR INFRASTRUCTURE, THE CHANGE IS IN OUR WORLD FROM CRYPTO CURRENCY.

IT'S ALREADY HAPPENING.

AND AI IS GOING TO BE A BIGGER CHANGE TO OUR ECONOMY THAN THE INTERNET.

SO WE NEED TO GET A HANDLE ON THAT AND UNDERSTAND WE'RE IN THIS RACE.

AND TO ME, THINGS LIKE SETTING UP A MANHATTAN PROJECT FOR AI ARE SOMETHING THAT I'M PROPOSING.

GET THE GREATEST SCIENTISTS IN THE WORLD, JUST LIKE WE DID IN THE MANHATTAN PROJECT BACK 80 YEARS AGO.

A LOT OF IMMIGRANT SCIENTISTS, FOREIGN SCIENTISTS WHO HELPED US WIN THAT RACE, WE NEED THE SAME THING ON AI.

AND THEN WE NEED TO SET UP SOMETHING LIKE THE ATOMIC ENERGY COMMISSION TO GO THROUGH THE RULES OF THE ROAD OF HOW WE DEAL WITH THIS VERY BRAND-NEW TECHNOLOGY.

AND THEN BECAUSE WARFARE IS CHANGE, BECAUSE IT'S ECONOMIC AND BASED ON TECH, IT MEANS THE VICTIMS, THE PEOPLE ON THE BATTLEFIELD ARE DIFFERENT.

IT'S NOT SOLDIERS VERY FAR AWAY, RIGHT.

IT'S OUR OWN CITIZENS WHO ARE BEING --WHO ARE THE VICTIMS OF THESE CYBER ATTACKS, WHO ARE AT RISK IF OUR INFRASTRUCTURE GOES DOWN.

WE NEED TO RETHINK HOW WE DEFINE HOMELAND SECURITY AND REARRANGE OUR GOVERNMENT TO PROTECT PEOPLE HERE, NOT JUST THE WAY WE DID 80 YEARS AGO.

THAT'S A COLD WAR MODEL, BUT SOMETHING NEW.

SO I'VE CALLED FOR A REWRITING OF THE 1947 NATIONAL SECURITY ACT.

EVERYTHING YOU KNOW ABOUT THE U. S. GOVERNMENT AND HOW WE DO SECURITY IS BASED ON SOMETHING THAT'S 80 YEARS OLD.

IT NEEDS TO BE REWRITTEN.

AND THOSE ARE SYSTEM OF THE IDEAS IN THE SPEECH.

>> AND YET THERE ARE A COUPLE OF CHALLENGES THERE BECAUSE YOU'VE TALKED ABOUT FOREIGN ENGINEERS AND PEOPLE LIKE THAT.

INSTEAD OF THAT, THERE IS DEPORTING, THERE IS DENYING VISAS.

>> YEP.

>> AND THERE IS ROUNDING UP THE WORKFORCE OF AN ALLIED NATION, SOUTH KOREA, FROM A COUNTRY WHO WANTED TO INVEST IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO THERE IS THAT.

AND THEN THERE IS DEPLOYING THE U. S. MILITARY AND NATIONAL GUARD AS DOMESTIC LAW ENFORCEMENT IN VARIOUS CITIES.

>> YEP.

>> IT LOOKS LIKE CHICAGO MAY HAVE ESCAPED THAT THREAT, ACCORDING TO THE WHITE HOUSE, BUT ANOTHER CITY MIGHT NOT.

SO WHO DO YOU THINK YOU CAN CONVINCE?

BECAUSE IT WOULD BE A LOT OF SHAPE SHIFTING FROM THE CURRENT POLICY TO DO WHAT YOU SUGGEST?

>> YEAH.

WELL, FIRST OF ALL, YOU HAVE TO BE ABLE TO MANAGE DAILY CRISES, THE TEN THINGS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS ANNOUNCING EVERY SINGLE DAY, BUT ALSO GIVE THE FUTURE A SEAT AT THE TABLE AND THINK OUTWARD.

AND THAT'S WHAT WASHINGTON ISN'T DOING RIGHT NOW.

TRUMP IS FLOODING HIS OWN, GIVING US TEN THINGS TO TALK ABOUT AND TWEET ABOUT ALL DAY LONG SO WE'RE NOT THINKING FIVE YEARS OUT, TEN YEARS OUT, 15 YEARS OUT.

AND I THINK THE JOB OF LEAD SERS TO NOT JUST DEAL WITH THE DAILY GRIND, BUT ACTUALLY THINK AROUND CORNERS.

SO THAT'S WHAT I WAS TRYING TO DO.

IN THE MEANTIME, THE PRESIDENT IS DOING THINGS THAT I THINK CONTRADICT THE VALUES OF OUR DEMOCRACY, RIGHT.

PUTTING UNIFORMED MILITARY IN OUR STREETS IS ABOUT AS CONTRARY TO OUR PERSONAL HISTORY, RIGHT.

WITH NO OFFENSE TO THE BRITS WHO ARE WATCHING, OUR ENTIRE IDENTITY WAS SHAPED AROUND A FOREIGN MILITARY OCCUPYING OUR TERRITORY AND TREATING BADLY AND ABUSING OUR CITIZENS.

SO TO HAVE THE RISK OF OUR NATIONAL GUARDSMEN, OUR UNIFORMED MILITARY IN OUR CITIES IS TO ME A VERY, VERY DANGEROUS STRATEGIC PROBLEM FOR OUR COUNTRY.

SO WE CAN'T STOP WORKING ON THAT.

WE HAVE TO REACT TO THAT.

WE HAVE TO PUSH BACK ON THAT.

BUT WE CAN'T JUST IGNORE THE FUTURE THREATS, BECAUSE THEY'RE HERE.

THEY'RE UPON US NOW.

>> SENATOR ELISSA SLOTKIN, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> FROM MASKED I. C. E. AGENTS GRABBING PEOPLE OFF THE STREETS TO DEPLOYING THE NATIONAL GUARD IN DEMOCRAT-RUN CITIES, MANY OF TRUMP'S MOVES RAISE SERIOUS QUESTIONS ABOUT CONSTITUTIONAL RIGHTS AND LIMITS.

THE U. S. CONSTITUTION IS AMONG THE OLDEST IN THE WORLD.

AND MY NEXT GUEST HAS BEEN EXPLORING ITS HISTORY AND PLACE IN THESE TROUBLING TIMES.

IN "WE THE PEOPLE," HISTORIAN JILL LEPORE MAKES THE CASE FOR CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENTS, AND SHE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM CAMBRIDGE, MASSACHUSETTS.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> JILL LEPORE, YOU KNOW, FROM THE BEGINNING OF THIS ADMINISTRATION, EVERYBODY IN THE SORT OF LEGAL FIELD AND THOSE WHO ARE EXPERTS WERE ASKING WHAT WOULD CREATE A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS IN THE UNITED STATES.

BASED ON THINGS THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD SAID BEFORE HE EVEN TOOK OFFICE FOR THE SECOND TIME.

SO WHAT DO YOU THINK WILL CAUSE A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS?

WHAT ELEMENT RIGHT NOW DO YOU THINK COULD, WOULD, OR NOT?

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK A LOT OF SCHOLARS ARE QUITE CAUTIOUS ABOUT THE LANGUAGE OF CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS WITH REGARD TO THIS ADMINISTRATION IN PARTICULAR BECAUSE THE LANGUAGE OF CRISIS AND EMERGENCY HAS BEEN SO GALVANIZING FOR THE ADMINISTRATION.

IT IS THE ASSERTION OF --THE PROCLAMATION OF EMERGENCY DECLARATIONS AND THE USE OF THOSE TO TAKE ON EMERGENCY POWERS THAT HAS LANE BEHIND SO MANY OF THE ACTIONS THE ADMINISTRATION HAS TAKEN THAT THE COURTS ARE FINDING UNLIKELY TO CONTINUE TO FIND TO BE IN VIOLATION OF THE CONSTITUTION.

SO I THINK IN --I THINK THAT ACCOUNTS FOR SOME OF THE RETICENCE, TO USE THE LANGUAGE PARTICIPATES IN THE EMERGENCY POLITICS THAT WE ARE IN.

AND I SHARE SOME OF THAT HESITATION.

YOU KNOW, I'M AS A SCHOLAR SOMEONE WHO TAKES A LONGER VIEW.

AND I THINK WE ARE IN A KIND OF ROLLING CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS IN THE SENSE THAT THERE HAVE BEEN CONCERNS RAISED ABOUT THE LEGITIMACY OF A CONSTITUTION THAT LIES BEYOND THE POWER OF THE PEOPLE TO AMEND IT, WHICH IS A FOUNDATIONAL IDEA OF AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONALISM, THAT COMMITMENT TO THE PEOPLE'S POWER TO AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.

>> I'M GOING TO GET TO THAT IN MORE DETAIL.

BUT BECAUSE SOME OF THE JUSTICES HAVE BEEN SPEAKING QUITE UNUSUALLY, THERE IS A RECENT INTERVIEW WITH CONSERVATIVE JUSTICE AMY CONEY BARRETT.

SHE'S GOT A BOOK OUT, AND SHE WAS ASKED WHAT WOULD CUTE A --CONSTITUTE A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS.

HERE'S WHAT SHE SAID.

>> I DON'T KNOW THAT I COULD GIVE A DEFINITION OF CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW THAT WE'VE REALLY FACED ONE IN THIS COUNTRY.

WE FACED A LOT OF TUMULT IN THE COUNTRY, BUT WE HAVE ALWAYS SURVIVED, AND AMERICA'S COMING UP ON ITS 250th ANNIVERSARY.

AND I THINK WE CAN BE PROUD OF THE WAY THE CONSTITUTION HAS HELD.

>> AND YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT.

IT HAS HELD.

>> IT HAS HELD, AND I THINK WE RIGHTLY CELEBRATE THE 250th ANNIVERSARY, NOT JUST OF THE DECLARATION OF INDEPENDENCE NEXT YEAR, BUT OF AMERICAN CONSTITUTIONALS AND THE FIRST STATE CONSTITUTIONS WERE PASSED IN 1776.

BUT WE CERTAINLY HAVE HAD CONSTITUTIONAL CRISES.

AS PEOPLE SAID ABOUT THE CIVIL WAR, THE CONSTITUTION DOESN'T COME IN 500 MILES OF ADDRESSING THE QUESTION OF SLAVERY.

THE LOSS OF 750,000 AMERICAN LIVES IN A FOUR- YEAR WAR OVER THE BATTLE TO END SLAVERY AND SETTLE THE QUESTION OF THE RIGHT OF STATES TO SECEDE FROM THE UNION, IT'S A MATTER OF HISTORICAL RECORD IS A CONSTITUTIONAL CRISIS.

I THINK THERE IS A KIND OF STRICT DEFINITION THAT INVOLVES THE GEARS OF THE MECHANISM THAT IS THE CONSTITUTION BECOMING LOCKED.

IT'S DESIGNED IN THE AGE OF ENLIGHTENMENT AS A MACHINE THAT IS SUPPOSED TO WORK AS PERFECTLY AS POSSIBLE.

IT'S LIKE A CLOCK WORKS WITH WEIGHTS AND BALANCES.

SO MUCH OF THE GENIUS OF THE CONSTITUTION IS THE PRECISION OF THE SEPARATION OF THOSE POWERS.

WE ARE NOW WITNESSING A KIND OF CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE THAT REALLY IS NOT SEEN ACROSS AMERICAN HISTORY, WHICH IS A ROLE PLAYED BY THE EXECUTIVE SIMPLY DECLARING A NEW CONSTITUTIONAL INTERPRETATION.

IF THE PRESIDENT BELIEVES IT'S CONSTITUTIONAL, IT IS CONSTITUTIONAL.

THE ULTIMATE ARBITER OF THE MEANING OF THE CONSTITUTION IS THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH, NOT THE JUDICIAL BRANCH, AND CERTAINLY NOT CONGRESS OR THE PEOPLE.

AND THERE IS NO PROVISION FOR THAT WHATSOEVER IN THE CONSTITUTION.

NOTHING IS FURTHER FROM THE BALANCING OF FORCES THAT THE CONSTITUTIONAL WAS DESIGNED TO SET IN MOTION.

>> OKAY.

SO IN YOUR BOOK, "WE THE PEOPLE," YOU DISCUSS OBVIOUSLY IN DEPTH WHAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT NOW, SOME DYSFUNCTIONAL IN THIS CONSTITUTIONAL SYSTEM AND HOW TO AMEND IT.

AND YOU ARGUE THAT THE CONSTITUTION WAS DESIGNED TO CHANGE AND GROW AND REGULARLY AND CONTINUOUSLY AMENDED.

BUT THAT'S NOT HOW THAT'S WORKING.

SO WHY NOT?

AND WHAT'S THE COST OF THAT?

>> THE U. S. HAS ONE OF THE MOST DIFFICULT CONSTITUTIONS TO AMEND IN THE WORLD.

IT'S ALSO THE MOST INFLUENTIAL CONSTITUTION IN THE WORLD.

IT'S OF GREAT SIGNIFICANCE.

BUT OTHER CONSTITUTIONS, INCLUDING THE STATE CONSTITUTIONS IN THE UNITED STATES ARE VERY REGULARLY AMENDED.

AMERICAN STATES HAVE HELD HUNDREDS OF CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTIONS, IN MANY CASES JUST REPLACED THEIR CONSTITUTIONS.

IT'S VERY COMMON AROUND THE WORLD.

SO IT IS A DISTINCTIVE FEATURE OF THE AMERICAN CONSTITUTION THAT WE HAVE NEVER HAD ANOTHER CONVENTION AND THAT THE CONSTITUTION, ONLY 27 AMENDMENTS HAVE BEEN RATIFIED.

A VERY LOW RATE COMPARED TO THOUSANDS ACROSS THE STATES WHERE THE AMENDMENT RATE IS SOMETHING LIKE 75%.

SO IT'S DISTINCTIVE.

AND THERE ARE MANY PEOPLE WHO WOULD SAY THAT IS BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION IS SO GREAT.

IT HASN'T BEEN CHANGED VERY OFTEN BECAUSE IT WAS SO WELL DESIGNED AND PERFECT --NEARLY PERFECT FROM THE BEGINNING.

AND, YOU KNOW, THAT'S A GOOD FAITH ARGUMENT.

I SEE MORE THAT THE AMENDMENT --MANY OF THE AMENDMENTS HAVE BEEN CRUCIALLY NECESSARY, CERTAINLY THE CIVIL WAR AMENDMENTS AND THE PROGRESSIVE ERA AMENDMENTS WERE ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL.

AND MANY OF THE FAILED AMENDMENTS HAVE HAD DIRE CONSEQUENCES.

I THINK THE FAILURE OF THE CHILD LABOR AMENDMENT WHICH WAS PASSED BY CONGRESS IN 1924 AND SENT TO THE STATES AND WAS NEVER AMENDED WAS PROBLEM IN THE '20s AND '30s.

IT REMAINS ACTUALLY A PROBLEM TODAY.

CONGRESS PASSED THE EQUAL RIGHTS AMENDMENT IN 1972.

IT HAS NOT BEEN RATIFIED.

I THINK MOST AMERICANS WOULD AGREE THERE IS SOMETHING KIND OF POLITICAL SETTLEMENT THAT'S NEVER QUITE BEEN MADE THAT WE SEE WITH US IN MANY WAYS.

SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED IN PLACE OF CONSTITUTIONAL AMENDMENT, WHICH WAS THE DESIGN WRITTEN INTO THE CONSTITUTION THAT YOU CAN AMEND THE CONSTITUTION.

BY WAY OF POPULAR RATIFICATION, IS THAT THE SUPREME COURT ENACTS CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE BY INTERPRETING THE CONSTITUTION DIFFERENTLY.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT'S A POWER THAT THE COURT HAS LARGELY ASSUMED.

IT'S NOT ESSENTIALLY WRITTEN INTO THE CONSTITUTION.

AND I THINK IT'S A PRACTICE THAT IS WOMEN ESTABLISHED AND RESPECTED, BUT IT HAS -- IT REALLY HAS REPLACED IN LONG PERIODS, DECADES OF AMERICAN HISTORY WHERE THERE HAVE BEEN NO AMENDMENTS EFFORTS BECAUSE THE COURT HAS BEEN PARTICULARLY ACTIVE.

>> AND I SORT OF ASKED YOU WHAT'S THE COST OF THAT.

YOU BASICALLY BELIEVE, I THINK, IF I'M GETTING IT STRAIGHT, THAT THE CONSTITUTION IS A LIVING DOCUMENT THAT NEEDS, AS YOU'VE LAID OUT, AMENDMENTS BY THE MECHANISMS THAT IT IS PROVIDED.

BUT YOU REMEMBER IN 2013, SUPREME COURT JUSTICE ANTONIN SCALIA ARGUED IT'S NOT A LIVING DOCUMENT.

HE SAID, QUOTE, IT'S DEAD, DEAD, DEAD.

THEY BELIEVE PEOPLE LIKE THAT ARE CALLED ORIGINALISTS.

SO HOW DO YOU GET --AND YOU'VE SAID IT'S IN THE HANDS OF THE ELITES NOW TO AMEND OR NOT TO AMEND.

HOW DO YOU JOG AND JIGGLE THIS.

>> CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE IS GOING TO HAPPEN ONE WAY OR THE OTHER.

ORIGINALISTS CALL THEIR METHOD OF CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE CONSTITUTIONAL RESTORATION.

IT IS A METHOD OF CONSTITUTIONAL CHANGE.

IT'S JUST DISGUISES ITSELF AS A METHOD OF RESTORATION.

BUT IT IS A FORM OF CHANGE.

WE'VE SEEN A LOT OF CHANGE IN THE CONSTITUTION UNDER AN ORIGINALIST SUPREME COURT.

I THINK THAT THE BROADER QUESTION IS WHAT IT MEANS TO OUR UNDERSTANDING OF AND CAPACITY FOR SELF-GOVERNMENT THAT WE DON'T EXERCISE THE POWER TO AMEND.

IT'S NOT THAT I THINK OH, THERE IS A BUNCH OF AMENDMENTS THAT I WHICH COULD BE PASSED.

I ACTUALLY DON'T HAVE SUCH A WISH LIST.

IT'S THE PRACTICE OF CONVENING CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTIONS WHICH USED TO HAPPEN IN THE STATES ALL THE TIME BUT HASN'T HAPPENED IN THE UNITED STATES SINCE 1986 WHEN RHODE ISLAND HELD THE LAST FULL DRESS CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION, WAS A PRACTICE SORT OF LIKE JURY DUTY.

YOU MAY NOT LOVE JURY DUTY, YOU MAY LOVE JURY DUTY.

BUT PEOPLE THINK IT'S THE RIGHT THING TO DELIVER AMONGST THEMSELVES WHAT IS TRUE.

AND IF WE WERE TO SAY TODAY REPLACE JURIES WITH AI AND JUST SAY YOU KNOW WHAT?

WE COULD FEED ALL THIS TESTIMONY AND ALL THIS EVIDENCE INTO AN AI.

WE KNOW IT WOULD MAKE A BETTER DECISION.

PEOPLE ARE ALWAYS SAYING YOU COULD DO THAT FOR THERAPY OR DOCTORS AND YOU'RE GOING TO GET A BETTER DECISION.

EVEN IF WE THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A BETTER DECISION, I DON'T THINK WE WOULD SAY WE SHOULD GET RID OF JURIES, BECAUSE WE UNDERSTAND THAT IS A CIVIC PRACTICE.

THAT IS WHERE WE GLUE OURSELVES TOGETHER AS A SOCIETY, WHERE WE AGREE THAT WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DECIDE WHAT'S TRUE TOGETHER, THAT WE HONOR AND TRUST OUR CAPACITY AS CITIZENS IN A DEMOCRACY.

A CONVENTION IS SOMETHING LIKE THAT.

WE'RE NOT READY TO HAVE A CONVENTION.

WE DON'T --IT'S AS IF --IT'S AS IF WE HAVEN'T HAD JURY DUTY FOR 60 YEARS, AND NO ONE EVEN --IF WE HAD ABOLISHED JURY DUTY IN 1971, WHICH IS THE LAST TIME THE CONSTITUTION WAS MEANINGFULLY AMENDED, IT WOULD BE VERY HARD TO BRING IT BACK.

PEOPLE WOULD BE LIKE I WOULD NOT TRUST THE DETERMINATION OF MY GUILT OR INNOCENCE WERE I ACCUSED OF A CRIME OF 12 RANDOM PEOPLE.

I THINK WE DON'T ACTUALLY TRUST ONE ANOTHER IN THAT WAY BECAUSE WE HAVE LOST SO MANY OF THE SKILLS OF DEMOCRATIC DELIBERATION.

SO I THINK LESS THAN DO WE HAVE THE CONSTITUTION I WANT OR YOU WANT, IT'S MORE THAT WE DON'T HAVE THE CAPACITY TO THINK CONSTITUTIONALLY ANYMORE.

>> WELL, OKAY.

SO HOW DO YOU SEE THAT BEING REKINDLED?

YOUR BOOK IS CALLED "WE THE PEOPLE," FOR VOTERS TO TAKE BACK CONTROL OF THEIR RIGHTS.

AND YOU HAVE A PERSONAL STORY.

I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU AS FAMILY USED TO HOLD REGULAR CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTIONS AROUND THE I THINK THE DINING TABLE.

>> YEAH.

I HONESTLY I'M REALLY KOOKY, BUT I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE DO THIS.

YOU HAVE TO HAVE FAMILY RULES.

YOU HAVE FAMILY MEETINGS.

YOU HAVE FAMILIES MEETINGS.

IF YOU BELIEVE IN CONSTITUTIONALISM AND YOU ALSO TEACH IT, A WAY TO DO THAT IS TO HAVE AN ANNUAL CONSTITUTIONAL CONVENTION WITH YOUR FAMILY.

WE USED TO DO IT BEFORE SCHOOL BEGAN, LIKE RIGHT BEFORE LABOR DAY.

AND WE BROUGHT OUT LAST YEAR'S CONVENTION WHICH BRINGS OUT THINGS LIKE CHORE SCHEDULES AND WHO HAS TO DO THE VACUUMING VERSUS WHO DOES THE DISHES, BEDTIMES, SCREEN TIME ALLOWED IS.

AND, YOU KNOW, IT'S A DIFFERENT YEAR.

THERE IS DIFFERENT REASONS YOU WANT TO BE ON A SCREEN.

KIDS ARE A DIFFERENT AGE.

YOU'RE GOING TO UPDATE THE RULES, BUT YOU SORT OF KIDS GET A CHANCE TO PETITION AND SAY I WILL -- I WILL AGREE TO WALK THE DOG IF I CAN HAVE AN EXTRA HALF HOUR BEFORE I HAVE TO GO TO BED.

THOSE ARE WAYS TO TEACH CIVIC SKILLS, THE WAY THEY ARE TAUGHT IN K THROUGH 12 CLASSROOMS ALL OVER THE COUNTRY WHERE WE UNDERSTAND.

KIDS SHOULD SIT IN A ROOM TOGETHER AND ARGUE OUT STUFF AND DISAGREE AND COME TO A RESOLUTION.

I THINK GROWN-UPS DON'T HAVE THAT MUCH ANYMORE AS A CONSEQUENCE OF OUR HYPER POLITICIZED POLITICS.

>> JILL LEPORE AT HARVARD UNIVERSITY.

> >> NOW FOR A MAJOR INVESTIGATION INTO A SECRET MISSION GONE WRONG.

A "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORT REVEALS THE DETAILS OF A BOTCHED OPERATION ALLEGEDLY GREENLIT BY PRESIDENT TRUMP IN 2019 WHICH LED TO U. S. NAVY S. E. A. L. s KILLING SEVERAL NORTH KOREAN CIVILIANS, ALL THIS WHILE HIGH-STAKES NUCLEAR NEGOTIATIONS WERE GOING ON BETWEEN THE TWO LEADERS.

JOURNALIST MATTHEW COLE REPORTED ON THIS STORY, AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO DISCUSS IT.

>> MATTHEW COLE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU JUST RECENTLY PUBLISHED A PIECE IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" ABOUT A S. E. A. L. TEAM 6 MISSION THAT MOST AMERICANS DID NOT KNOW ABOUT.

>> SO THIS IS 2019.

THE ADMINISTRATION IS TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO DENUCLEARIZE OR NEGOTIATE WITH NORTH KOREA, RIGHT.

AND THE ADMINISTRATION, LIKE EVERY PART IN ANY NEGOTIATION WANTS AS MUCH AS AN ADVANTAGE AS POSSIBLE TO TRY TO GET AN EDGE.

WHAT ARE THEY THINKING, WHAT ARE THEY SAYING, LET'S TAP THE PHONES.

BUT GETTING SOMETHING INTO NORTH KOREA IS NOT THAT EASY.

WHY DID THEY GO WITH THIS PARTICULAR ROUTE?

>> LET ME JUST SAY THAT EVEN IN OUR REPORTING, AND WE'RE VERY EXPLICIT IN THE STORY THAT THERE WERE SOME DETAILS THAT WE WITHHELD BECAUSE OF THE SENSITIVITY AND THE NATURE OF THE LISTENING DEVICE OR THE CAPABILITIES OF THE U. S. GOVERNMENT HAS THAT WE WANTED TO ERR ON THE SIDE OF CAUTION.

IN 2018, THE U. S. GOVERNMENT SAW AN OPPORTUNITY TO PLACE A LISTENING DEVICE IN NORTH KOREA IN THE MIDDLE OF A SERIES OF NEGOTIATIONS.

LET'S UNDERSTAND AND GET AN IDEA OF WHAT THE NEGOTIATORS ON THE NORTH KOREAN SIDE ARE SAYING TO KIM JONG-UN.

AND SECONDLY, THERE WAS A SORT OF LONGER TERM --A POTENTIAL FOR A LONGER TERM STRATEGIC ADVANTAGE TO GET ACCESS TO NORTH KOREAN COMMUNICATIONS, PERIOD.

AND SO THE QUESTION IS HOW DO YOU GET A DEVICE INTO NORTH KOREA.

ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THE NAVY S. E. A. L. s GET THESE MISSIONS IN THE END IS BECAUSE THEY CAN COME IN THROUGH THE WATER, RIGHT.

THERE WAS NOT A POSSIBILITY TO PARACHUTE INTO NORTH KOREA.

YOU WEREN'T GOING TO CROSS OVER LAND VIA CHINA OR SOUTH KOREA.

SO THE ONLY WAY IN IS THROUGH THE WATER.

AND ULTIMATELY, THE NAVY S. E. A. L. s, AND PARTICULARLY THE ELITE S. E. A. L. TEAM 6 UNIT, THEY'RE THE BEST AT THE ABILITY TO GET IN.

AND SO THE PLANNING AND THE REHEARSING FOR THIS WENT ON FOR MONTHS IN LATE 2018, AND MEANWHILE, THE S. E. A. L. TEAM 6, THE NAVY SPECIAL OPERATIONS WAS LOOKING AT THE PLACE THAT THEY WERE GOING IN NORTH KOREA TO SEE WHEN AN OPENING WOULD BE -- WHEN TO GET IN.

WHEN WOULD THE BEST POSSIBLE TIME.

AND SO THERE WAS AN OPENING IN EARLY 2019 IN THE WINTER.

THE WATER WAS EXTREMELY AND THEY JUST DETERMINED THAT WAS WHEN THEY WERE GOING DO IT.

AND IT CAME DAYS, WEEKS BEFORE THE PROPOSED SUMMIT IN HANOI.

SO THERE WAS AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF TENSION AROUND WHETHER, YOU KNOW, BEING ABLE TO GET IN, GET OUT UNDETECTED, AND WHETHER DOING SO COULD DERAIL THE POSSIBLE SUMMIT.

AND SO THE LARGE SUBMARINE GETS OUT INTO THE JAPANESE SEA, AND EVENTUALLY MAKES ITS WAY TO NORTH KOREA.

THEY GET INTO NORTH KOREAN WATERS.

THEY DEPLOY THESE TWO S. E. A. L. DELIVERY VEHICLES, EACH WITH ROUGHLY SIX S. E. A. L. S IN THEM.

AND THEY MOTOR THEIR WAY UNDER WATER.

THEY'RE CONSIDERED WET SUBS, WHICH MEANS EVERYONE IS IN A SUIT WITH SCUBA GEAR, AND THE WATER IS SO COLD THAT THEY HAD TO HAVE NEOPRENE SUITS THAT HAD HEATING ELEMENTS TO THEM TO KEEP THEM FROM FREEZING BECAUSE IT WAS A TWO-HOUR RIDE INTO THEIR LOCATION WHERE THEY WERE GOING.

THE MINI SUBS GOT ABOUT 150 --BETWEEN 100 AND 200 YARDS, METERS FROM THEIR LOCATION AT THE SHORELINE.

AND THE S. E. A. L. s GET OUT AND THEY MAKE THEIR WAY.

>> THEY HAVE PRACTICED THIS OVER AND OVER AGAIN.

WHAT JUST SEEMS LIKE A PHYSICALLY GRUELING TASK.

AND A LOT OF THINGS HAVE TO GO RIGHT.

WHAT WENT WRONG?

>> YOU'RE RIGHT.

SO MUCH HAS TO GO RIGHT.

IT HAS TO BE ALMOST PERFECT.

THERE WERE IN THE AFT DIRECTION SEVERAL THINGS THAT THE S. E. A. L. s BELIEVE WENT WRONG.

WE SHOULD SAY FIRST OF ALL THERE IS A CERTAIN AMOUNT OF AMBIGUITY AND LACK OF FIDELITY ABOUT WHAT WENT WRONG BECAUSE THE NATURE OF THE OPERATION STARTED WITH THE FACT THAT S. E. A. L. s AND S. E. A. L. TEAM 6 AND SPECIAL OPERATION FORCES HAVE BEEN SINCE 9/11 FIGHTING WARS IN AFGHANISTAN AND IRAQ AND THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND DURING ALL OF THOSE MISSIONS, WHAT THEY HAD WERE LIVE OVERHEAD CAMERAS.

THEY HAD VIDEO FEEDS.

>> SURE.

>> OFTEN IN HIGH DEFINITION.

SO YOU HAD THE ABILITY TO SEE WHAT WAS GOING ON ABOVE THEM AND COMMUNICATE WITH THEM.

WELL, THERE WAS NONE OF THAT FOR THIS.

THIS WAS OLD-FASHIONED, BEHIND ENEMY LINES, NO COMMUNICATIONS.

AND SO THEY HAD TO MAKE DECISIONS BASED ON WHAT THEY COULD SEE IN FRONT OF THEM.

SO THERE IS A LIMITATION IN TERMS OF UNDERSTANDING WHAT MAY HAVE GONE WRONG.

WHAT MAY HAVE GONE WRONG, THOUGH, WAS ONE OF THE TWO MINI SUBS MISSED ITS LANDING MARK.

IT RELEASED --IT TURNED ITSELF AROUND.

IT RELEASED THE S. E. A. L. S. THE S. E. A. L. S STAYING UNDERWATER MADE THEIR WAY TOWARDS THE SHORE.

BOTH THE MINI SUB AND THE S. E. A. L. s AT THAT POINT MISSED ANY INDICATION THAT THERE WAS A FISHING SKIFF, THAT THERE WAS A SMALL BOAT ON THE WATER.

MEANWHILE, IT'S THE MIDDLE OF THE NIGHT.

THE SEA IS CALM.

IT'S QUIET.

THESE FISHERMEN ARE ALONE OUT THERE, AND THE MINI SUB, HAVING MISSED ITS MARK, TURNS ITSELF AROUND.

AND WHEN IT TURNS ITSELF AROUND, THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY A THEORY THAT IN DOING SO, BECAUSE THE WATER WAS IN SUCH SHALLOW WATER, THAT ITS ENGINES MADE A WAKE ESSENTIALLY.

SO THAT FROM ABOVE THE WATER YOU COULD HEAR OR SEE MOVEMENT IN THE WATER AND CAUGHT THE ATTENTION.

SO AS THAT MAY BE HAPPENING, THE S. E. A. L. s HAVE NOW MADE THEIR WAY TO SHORE.

THEY'RE ON THE BEACH.

THEY'RE AT --BETWEEN KNEE AND WAIST- HIGH WATER.

THEY'RE TAKING OFF THEIR SUITS AND THEIR GEAR.

AND AT THAT POINT, AT LEAST ONE OF THE S. E. A. L. s SEES THE BOAT WITH THREE NORTH KOREANS ON IT.

AND ONE OF THE THREE TWO OR THREE NORTH KOREANS DIVES INTO THE WATER.

AT THAT POINT, ONE OF THE S. E. A. L. S ON THE MISSION HAS CONCLUDED THAT THEY HAVE THESE NORTH KOREANS WHO THEY'RE NOT SURE ARE THEY FISHERMEN?

ARE THEY SECURITY?

ARE THEY ARMED?

DO THEY HAVE A RADIO TO CALL BACK FOR HELP?

THAT THEY HAVE DISCOVERED THE MINI SUB, AND THAT THIS ONE WHO DIVES INTO THE WATER IS TRYING TO LOOK AT THE MINI SUB, RIGHT.

AND SO AS SOON AS THAT PERSON POPS BACK UP, THAT S. E. A. L. DECIDES TO FIRE HIS WEAPON.

AND AT THAT POINT, THE S. E. A. L. s HAD BEEN UNDER STRICT ORDERS THAT HAD THEY INTERACTED WITH ANY HUMANS, WHETHER IT WAS SECURITY OR FISHERMEN, THAT THEY HAD TO ABORT THE MISSION.

THEY OPENED FIRE.

THE REST OF THE S. E. A. L. s OPENED FIRE ON THE REST OF THE BOAT.

THEY MAKE THEIR WAY BACK TO THE BOAT TO SEE AND INSPECT.

THEY DISCOVER THAT THERE IS NO WEAPONS.

THERE IS NO RADIO.

IT APPEARS TO BE JUST NORTH KOREAN CIVILIANS, FISHERMEN.

AND THEY DITCH THE BODIES IN THE WATER AND THEY GET BACK INTO THE MINI SUBS AND THEY CALL IN WITH A DISTRESS SIGNAL TO THE NUCLEAR SUBMARINE OFFSHORE.

AND THAT NUCLEAR SUBMARINE HAS TO COME IN THE DISTANCE FOR THE MINI SUBS AND THE LARGE SUB AND GET THEM OUT.

AND THEY WERE ABLE TO.

>> IN YOUR REPORTING, YOU TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HOW THIS S. E. A. L. TEAM WAS FORMED IN 1980.

HOW IT'S BECOME KIND OF THIS ALMOST LEGENDARY UNIT IN PART BECAUSE OF HOLLYWOOD, IN PART BECAUSE OF SOME OF THEIR SUCCESSFUL MISSIONS.

BUT YOU ALSO GO ON TO WRITE AMONG SOME IN THE MILITARY WHO HAVE WORKED WITH THEM, THE S. E. A. L. s HAVE A REPUTATION FOR DEVISING OVERLY BOLD AND COMPLEX MISSIONS THAT GO BADLY.

MOST OF US NEVER HEAR OF ANY OF THE RISKS THEY TAKE THAT DID NOT WORK OUT.

GIVE US SOME EXAMPLES.

CIRCUMSTANCES >> SURE.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO REMEMBER THAT THE JOB THAT THESE MEN SIGN UP FOR, TRAIN FOR, AND THEN GO OUT AND DO IS INCREDIBLY RISKY AND HARD.

AND IT IS BY NO MEANS --I DON'T WANT TO LEAVE THE IMPRESSION, AND I DON'T THINK WE DID IN OUR ARTICLE, THAT WHAT THEY'RE DOING IS A PIECE OF CAKE.

IT'S THE OPPOSITE.

THESE ARE ESSENTIALLY THE HARDEST MISSIONS THAT THE GOVERNMENT HAS OR ASKS ITS SOLDIERS TO DO.

THEY DO THEM.

THAT SAID, THEY'RE STILL HUMAN.

AND SO --AND THEY MAKE MISTAKES.

THEY'VE HAD A SERIES OF MISSIONS AFTER 9/11 WHERE, YOU KNOW, PART OF IT WAS IT'S LESS ABOUT MISCONDUCT AND MORE ABOUT THEY MAKE MISTAKES AND THEY HAVE --THEY'VE HAD A LEGACY OF COVER-UPS, OF LYING ABOUT TRYING TO AVOID SCRUTINY OR ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THEIR ERRORS.

AND SO WE CITED A FEW OPERATIONS.

ONE WAS IN AFGHANISTAN, WHICH WAS A HOSTAGE RESCUE.

IN 2010 OF A BRITISH CITIZEN WHO WAS BEING HELD IN AFGHANISTAN AND S. E. A. L. s ACCIDENTALLY KILLED HER.

BUT THE PROBLEM WAS THAT IN THE HOSTAGE RESCUE AFTER THEY KILLED HER, THEY LIED ABOUT HOW SHE DIED AND THE FACT THAT THEY KNEW THEY HAD LIKELY DONE IT.

SO IT LED TO A VERY EMBARRASSING MOMENT FOR PRESIDENT OBAMA AT THE TIME WHO HAD TO REPORT TO THE BRITISH GOVERNMENT THAT WHAT THEY ORIGINALLY SAID HAD HAPPENED DID NOT HAPPEN.

MORE RECENTLY UNDER THE FIRST TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, HE GREENLIT A VERY RISKY MISSION INTO YEMEN TO GO AFTER AL QAEDA IN 2017.

AND IT WAS -- IT LED TO 30 CIVILIANS BEING KILLED IN A VILLAGE.

THEY LOST HUGE AIRPLANE, AND A MEMBER OF S. E. A. L. TEAM 6 DIED.

AND THE, YOU KNOW, THE POINT WE TRY TO MAKE IN THE STORY IS THAT MEMBERS OF THE SPECIAL OPERATIONS COMMUNITY AND OF THE MILITARY, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE REASONS WHY THEY WERE SPEAKING ABOUT THIS MISSION WAS SORT OF TWOFOLD.

IT WAS NOT JUST THAT THE S. E. A. L. s, IT WAS A REMINDER THAT EVEN AMONG THE ELITE, MISTAKES ARE MADE, BUT ALSO THAT THESE THINGS ARE INCREDIBLY HIGH RISKS.

AND WE AS A CIVILIAN GOVERNMENT DIFFERENT THAN THE REST OF THE AMERICAN PUBLIC.

IF THE VISION AND THE VIEW OF S. E. A. L. TEAM SIX ARE ONLY THEIR GREAT SUCCESSES, THE DEATH OF THE KILLING OF OSAMA BIN LADEN OR SAVING CAPTAIN PHILLIPS IN THE INDIAN OCEAN FROM SOMALI PIRATES IS THAT THEY ARE, YOU KNOW, SUPERMEN THAT CAN DO ANYTHING.

AND IN FACT, IT'S NOT LIKE THAT AT ALL.

IT'S INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT.

AND SO THERE HAS TO BE MORE OVERSIGHT AND SCRUTINY AND AWARENESS ABOUT WHAT THE RISKS ARE WHEN A PRESIDENT SIGNS OFF ON USING THESE UNITS ON THESE KINDS OF MISSIONS.

>> SO GETTING BACK TO THIS MISSION.

I'M SURE IT SPURRED A LOT OF DIFFERENT INTERNAL REVIEWS.

WHAT DID THEY FIND?

WAS THERE SOME ACCOUNTABILITY?

>> WELL, NOT REALLY.

THERE WERE MULTIPLE INVESTIGATIONS, FIRST UNDER THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND THEN WHEN PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN CAME INTO OFFICE AND DISCOVERED THAT THIS OPERATION HAD HAPPENED.

AND WHAT THEY ULTIMATELY CAME DOWN TO WAS IT WAS JUST A SERIES OF UNFORTUNATE OCCURRENCES THAT, YOU KNOW, AT THE END OF THE DAY, THE S. E. A. L. s THAT OPENED FIRE ON THE NORTH KOREANS WERE WORKING WITH THE ASSUMPTION THAT THEY HAD BEEN COMPROMISED AND AT THAT POINT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING TO DO WAS TO PROTECT THEIR LIVES AND GET OUT SAFELY AND WITHOUT BEING CAUGHT.

AND SO THE DEATHS WERE RULED LEGAL.

THEY HAD OPERATED WITHIN THE RULES OF ENGAGEMENT.

THERE WAS NO DETERMINATION OF ANY KIND OF MISCONDUCT.

IT WAS JUST A, YOU KNOW, YOU PICKED EVERY POSSIBLE THING THAT COULD HAVE GONE WRONG, IT WENT WRONG.

I THINK THERE IS WHAT WE UNDERSTAND IS BECAUSE THERE WAS ESSENTIALLY ONLY THE STORY OF THE SIX TO EIGHT S. E. A. L. s WHO WERE ON THE MISSION, THERE WAS NOTHING ELSE TO GO BY.

SO MILITARY INVESTIGATORS HAD THE SAME ISSUE.

BECAUSE WHAT THEY DIDN'T HAVE WAS ANY KIND OF OVERHEAD VIDEO.

THEY HAD NO OTHER ABILITY TO KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING OR WHAT HAPPENED.

AND SO THE CIRCUMSTANCES WERE SO UNIQUE.

THE S. E. A. L. s APPROPRIATELY GET AN ENORMOUS AMOUNT OF LEEWAY HERE.

AND WHAT IT WAS, THE MILITARY DETERMINED IT WAS JUST A SERIES OF UNFORTUNATE EVENTS, AND THERE WAS NO ONE REALLY TO BLAME.

>> WHEN DID MEMBERS OF CONGRESS KNOW ABOUT THIS, HEAR ABOUT THIS?

BECAUSE USUALLY THESE KIND OF MISSIONS, THERE ARE SELECT MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO HAVE DIFFERENT COMMITTEES WHO ARE IN THE LOOP.

>> YEAH.

WELL, ONE OF THE MOST SURPRISING THINGS IN REPORTING ON THIS STORY WAS THAT THE PRESIDENT DURING HIS FIRST TERM NEVER INFORMED CONGRESS AT ALL ABOUT THE MISSION BEFORE OR AFTERWARDS.

AND SO THE MISSION WAS FIRST BRIEFED TO WHAT THEY CALLED THE GANG OF EIGHT BY THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION.

THE GANG OF EIGHT IS THE TOP FOUR --IT'S THE TOP REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRAT IN THE HOUSE AND THE SENATE AND THEN THE TWO LEADERS OF BOTH THE INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEES.

AND SO THAT GETS YOUR EIGHT.

AND THEY DIDN'T LEARN ABOUT IT UNTIL AT LEAST TWO YEARS AFTER THE MISSION HAD OCCURRED.

AND THAT WE BELIEVE MAY HAVE VIOLATED LAW.

ABOUT NOTIFYING CONGRESS WHEN A PRESIDENT IS REQUIRED TO NOTIFY CONGRESS.

>> YOUR STORY CAME OUT.

THE PRESIDENT WAS ASKED EXPLICITLY ABOUT THIS STORY.

AND HE STATED, QUOTE, I DON'T KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT IT.

I'M HEARING IT NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME.

YET IN YOUR REPORTING, YOU POINT OUT THAT THIS MISSION HAD EXPLICIT AUTHORIZATION FROM THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES WHEN THAT NUCLEAR SUBMARINE WAS CLOSE TO NORTH KOREA.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF HIS RESPONSE?

>> WELL, I'M NOT GOING TO GET INTO THE HEAD OF THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, BUT I CAN TELL YOU THAT OUR SOURCES WERE --WE HAVE PLENTY OF THEM, AND IT WAS VERY CLEAR THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD APPROVED THE MISSION ALL THE WAY THROUGH.

WAS VERY WELL VERSED WITH WHAT HAPPENED TO THE EXTENT THAT HE PAID ATTENTION.

I'M NOT GOING SPECULATE.

I AM COMFORTABLE WITH THE --VERY CONFIDENT WITH OUR REPORTING.

AND I'M SURE MY COLLEAGUE DAVE PHILLIPS IS AS WELL.

AND I THINK THE SAFEST THING TO SAY IS WHAT THE PRESIDENT SAID IN THE AFTERMATH WAS NOT ACCURATE.

>> IT'S HARD TO KNOW WHETHER THE FAILURE OF THIS MISSION IMPACTED THOSE TALKS IN HANOI.

BUT NOW, WE LITERALLY --ONE OF THE IMAGES OF 2025 IS GOING TO BE PRESIDENT XI JINPING, VLADIMIR PUTIN, KIM JONG- UN, AND NARENDRA MODI AT THIS MEETING, JUST LAST WEEK, THE END OF THE ANNIVERSARY OF WORLD WAR, A BIG PARADE.

PRESIDENT XI JINPING AND KIM JONG- UN PLEDGED DEEPER TIES.

AND I WONDER, IS THIS ALL CONNECTED?

THESE MISSIONS DON'T HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.

THE REACTIONS DON'T HAPPEN IN A VACUUM.

>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THE QUESTION IS WHETHER OR NOT THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, WHEN THEY MAKE --THE PRESIDENT MAKES A DECISION TO TAKE SUCH A HUGE GAMBLE WHAT THE RISK VERSUS REWARDS ARE.

AND I THINK THE ACT OF JOURNALISM IS IN A PARTICULAR CASE WHERE EVEN CONGRESS WAS KEPT IN THE DARK ABOUT A MISSION LIKE THIS.

IT'S IN THE PUBLIC INTERESTS TO HAVE SOME UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT THE PRESIDENT HAS AUTHORIZED, WHAT THE U. S. MILITARY, WHAT THE U. S. GOVERNMENT HAS DONE IN SECRET.

AND IN PARTICULAR, WHEN THINGS GO BADLY OR WRONG, NOT NECESSARILY BECAUSE ANYONE MADE --DID SOMETHING, ANY MISCONDUCT, BUT, YOU KNOW, THIS IS HOW WARS CAN, YOU KNOW -- THIS IS HOW TENSIONS AND CONFLICTS CAN ESCALATE.

AND ESPECIALLY WHEN THINGS ARE IN SECRET, NOT TO MENTION THE ISSUE OF SEPARATION OF POWER HERE IS BETWEEN CONGRESS AND THE EXECUTIVE BRANCH.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, I TRY TO NOT THINK ABOUT OR SPECULATE TOO MUCH ON THE DYNAMIC THAT THIS MISSION OR PUBLISHING THIS MISSION MAY OR MAY NOT HAVE ON WHAT FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS, HOW FOREIGN GOVERNMENTS ARE GOING TO VIEW IT AND RATHER ABOUT HOW -- AND I THINK THE POINT IS HOW THE U. S. GOVERNMENT BEHAVES AND ACTS AND CONDUCTS ITSELF, ESPECIALLY BEHIND CLOSED DOORS.

>> INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES" MATTHEW COLE.

THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, HARI.

> >> AND FINALLY TONIGHT, SOARING TO VICTORY, A SWISS TEAM HAS WON THE WORLD'S OLDEST AND MOST PRESTIGIOUS HOT AIR BALLOON EVENT.

THE DUO SECURED THE ANNUAL GORDON BENNETT CUP AFTER LANDING IN ROMANIA ON MONDAY.

24 TEAMS SET OFF FROM METS, FRANCE LAST FRIDAY.

>> AIMING TO COVER THE GREATEST POSSIBLE DISTANCE FROM THE LAUNCH SITE WITHOUT ANY PREMATURE LANDINGS OR INTERVALS.

AFTER NEARLY 1,400 KILOMETERS, AND OVER 67 HOURS, THIS SWISS PAIR CLAIMED THEIR TROPHY IN GOGOCU, ROMANIA.

THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING, AND GOODBYE FROM LONDON.