September 23, 2025

>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

PRESIDENT TRUMP LASHES OUT, LAM BASTING THE UNITED NATIONS AND THE WORLD ON CLIMATE AND IMMIGRATION.

AS HE ADDRESSES ITS GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

AND HERE IN THE CORRIDORS OF POWER, A WAVE OF ISRAELI ALLIES JOIN THE MAJORITY FORMALLY RECOGNIZING A PALESTINIAN STATE.

WHILE IN GAZA, DOZENS MORE ARE KILLED BY THE IDF, WITH ISRAEL INCREASINGLY ISOLATED.

TOUGH QUESTIONS FACING THEIR GOVERNMENT.

I'LL PUT THAT TO DANNY DANON, THE ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U. N.

> >> PLUS, A SHOWDOWN BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND BRAZIL, AS THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION TARGETS THOSE WHO LED THE BOLSONARO PROSECUTION.

BRAZIL'S FOREIGN MINISTER WILL JOIN ME.

> >> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

MARK J. BLECHNER.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

SETON J. MELVIN.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

JEFFREY KATZ AND BETH ROGERS.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE, I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, HERE IN NEW YORK AT THE UNITED NATIONS.

WHERE DONALD TRUMP HAS USED HIS ADDRESS TO ATTACK THE 80-YEAR-OLD INSTITUTION AND HIS OWN EUROPEAN ALLIES.

WITH A MAGA-STYLE RALLY SPEECH, TRUMP STARTED OFF BY TOUTING HIS OWN NESTIC DOMESTIC ACHIEVEMENTS, BEFORE LAYING INTO THE UNITED NATIONS TO THE EUROPEAN UNION ON EVERYTHING FROM CLIMATE CHANGE TO MIGRATION POLL SITUATIONS.

TAKE A LISTEN.

>> THE U. N. HAS SUCH TREMENDOUS POTENTIAL.

I'VE ALWAYS SAID IT.

IT HAS TREMENDOUS, TREMENDOUS POTENTIAL.

BUT IT'S NOT EVEN COMING CLOSE TO LIVING UP TO THAT POTENTIAL.

FOR THE MOST PART, AT LEAST, FOR NOW, ALL THEY SEEM TO DO IS WRITE A REALLY STRONGLY WORDED LETTER AND THEN NEVER FOLLOW THAT LETTER UP.

IT'S TIME TO END THE FAILED EXPERIMENT OF OPEN BORDERS.

YOU HAVE TO END IT NOW.

I CAN TELL YOU.

I'M REALLY GOOD AT THIS STUFF.

YOUR COUNTRIES ARE GOING TO HELL.

CLIMATE CHANGE.

BECAUSE IF IT GOES HIGHER OR LOWER, WHATEVER THE HELL HAPPENS, THERE'S CLIMATE CHANGE.

IT'S THE GREATEST CON JOB EVER PERPETRATED ON THE WORLD, IN MY OPINION.

CLIMATE CHANGE, NO MATTER WHAT HAPPENS, YOU'RE INVOLVED IN THAT.

NO MORE GLOBAL WARMING, NO MORE GLOBAL COOLING, ALL OF THESE PREDICTIONS MADE BY THE UNITED NATIONS AND MANY OTHERS, OFTEN FOR BAD REASONS, WERE WRONG.

THEY WERE MADE BY STUPID PEOPLE THAT HAVE GIVEN COUNTRIES NO CHANCE FOR SUCCESS.

IF YOU DON'T GET AWAY FROM THIS GREEN SCAM, YOUR COUNTRY IS GOING TO FAIL.

>> AND ON THE WAR IN UKRAINE, THE PRESIDENT AGAIN TOUTED HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN PUTIN, BUT ALSO SAID THAT HE WAS READY TO IMPOSE STRONG SANCTIONS ON RUSSIA, ONLY IF NATO COUNTRY FIRST AGREED TO STOP BUYING RUSSIAN OIL.

IGNORING THE FACT THAT SINCE 2022 IN THE FULL-SCALE INVASION, EUROPEAN ALLIES HAVE IMPOSED WAVES OF SANCTIONS ON PUTIN.

AND ON GAZA, AS HIS CLOSEST ALLIES RECOGNIZE MRIN PALESTINIAN STATEHOOD NOW, HE AGAIN INSISTED THE MOVE REWARDS HAMAS.

TRADITION DICTATES, OF COURSE, THAT THE FIRST COUNTRY TO ADDRESS THE U. N. ON EVERY GENERAL ASSEMBLY IS BRAZIL.

MEANWHILE, BRAZIL AND THE U. S. ARE AT LOGGER HEADS OVER THE PROSECUTION OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT JAIR BOLSONARO, A STAUNCH TRUMP ALLY.

WASHINGTON HIT BRAZIL WITH A 50% TRADE TARIFF IN AN ATTEMPT TO STOP BOLL SAN NARROW'S TRIAL, BUT HE'S NOW BEEN SENTENCED TO 27 YEARS IN PRISON FOR PLOTTING A COUP AGAINST LULA.

BRAZIL'S LEGISLATURE IS CURRENTLY DEBATING WHETHER TO GRANT AN AMNESTY.

AND THE U. S. IS REVOKING VISAS AND IMPOSING SANCTIONS ON THE WIFE OF THE JUDGE WHO OVERSAW BOLSONARO'S CONVICTION.

HERE'S PRESIDENT LULA DA SILVA EARLIER.

>> THE AGGRESSION AGAINST THE INDEPENDENCE OF THE JUDICIARY BRANCH OF POWER IS UNACCEPTABLE.

THIS INTERFERENCE IN DOMESTIC AFFAIRS IS AIDED BY A SUBSERVIENT FAR RIGHT, FALSE PATRIOTS, PLAN AND PUBLICLY PROMOTE ACTIONS AGAINST BRAZIL.

BRAZIL SENT A MESSAGE TO ALL ASPIRING AUTOCRATS, AND THOSE WHO SUPPORT THEM, OUR DEMOCRACY, OUR SOVEREIGNTY, ARE NONNEGOTIABLE.

>> AND WHILE PRESIDENT TRUMP MADE SOME POSITIVE REMARKS ABOUT HIS BRAZILIAN COUNTERPART, HE CRITICIZED THE COUNTRY, SAYING IT WAS DOING, QUOTE, POORLY.

I'M JOINED NOW HERE BY THE COUNTRY'S FOREIGN MINISTER, MAURO VIEIRA.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> DO I DARE ASK YOU ON A PUBLIC FORUM HOW YOU RESPOND TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S SPEECH IN GENERAL, AND HIS SPECIFIC ATTACKS ON BRAZIL, SAYING THAT YOU'RE GOING TO FAIL WITHOUT HIM?

>> WELL, BRAZIL IS A COUNTRY OF NEGOTIATION AND VERY OPEN.

WE ARE ALWAYS READY TO TALK AND NEGOTIATE.

AND WE HAVE BEEN APPROACHED BY OTHER HIGH OFFICIALS OF THE U. S. GOVERNMENT AND I MYSELF SAID THAT THE POLITICAL ISSUE IS -- THERE'S NO SPACE AT ALL, NOT EVEN ONE INCH TO NEGOTIATE, BUT WE ARE READY TO NEGOTIATE THE TAXES, THE TARIFFS, THAT WE CAN DO, ALTHOUGH THEY ARE ILLEGAL, THEY ARE NOT --THEY ARE NOT IN THE STRUCTURE.

>> STRUCTURE.

>> YEAH, IN THE STRUCTURE OF ALL THE TRADE AGREEMENTS THAT WE HAVE.

BUT WE'RE READY TO TALK AND TO DISCUSS.

THE ONLY THINGS THAT WE CANNOT DISCUSS, THE SOVEREIGNTY OR THE INDEPENDENCE OF POWER, AND BRAZIL, AS PRESIDENT LULA SAID IN HIS SPEECH TODAY.

>> YEAH, THAT YOUR DEMOCRACY IS SOVEREIGN AND NOTHING CAN INTERFERE WITH IT.

>> YES, OF COURSE.

>> CAN I ASK YOU, BECAUSE EVERYBODY PICKED THIS UP, BECAUSE MAYBE YOU CAN CLARIFY.

PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID SOME NICE THINGS ABOUT PRESIDENT LULA.

YOU TELL ME HOW THEY MET.

BUT IN FRONT OF THE WORLD, HE SAID, AND WE'RE GOING TO MEET NEXT WEEK.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

THIS IS NEWS TO YOU?

>> WELL, THEY NEVER MET BEFORE, AND TODAY, THEY HAVE OCCASIONS TO SHAKE HANDS AND EXCHANGE A COUPLE OF WORLDS, MAYBE, FOR 15 OR 20 SECONDS, AS PRESIDENT LULA WAS LEAVING THE PODIUM.

THEY MET AT THIS ROOM, AT THE BACK OF THE PODIUM.

AND IT'S TRUE PRESIDENT LULA TOLD ME THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID THEY SHOULD MEET AND THEY SHOULD TALK.

I HOPE WE CAN TALK WITH PRESIDENT LULA --WITH PRESIDENT TRUMP, PRESIDENT LULA WILL ALWAYS BE READY TO TALK, AS HE HAS BEEN IN THE PAST TO TALK TO ANY CHIEF OF STATE THAT HAS INTEREST TO DISCUSS ISSUES WITH BRAZIL.

AND IT WILL HAVE TO BE BY A PHONE CALL OR VIDEO CONFERENCE, BECAUSE UNFORTUNATELY, PRESIDENT LULA IS LEAVING TOMORROW, BACK TO BRAZIL, HE'S VERY BUSY, HE HAS A VERY BUSY AGENDA, SO, IT WON'T BE POSSIBLE TO MEET PERSONALLY, BUT THEY WILL SPEAK AND I'M VERY GLAD THAT IT HAPPENED.

>> DO YOU THINK A MEETING BY VIDEO OR WHATEVER WILL MANAGE TO REDUCE THE BIG THING THAT TRUMP HAS DONE, AND THAT IS HE IMPOSED 50% TARIFFS ON YOUR COUNTRY?

>> YEAH.

>> PRESIDENT LULA TOLD ME, YOU KNOW, HE'S HAD INTERVIEWS, HE'S WRITTEN ABOUT, I THINK HE USED THE WORD EMPEROR.

>> YEAH.

>> WE ARE NOT GOING TO BOW TO THE DICTATES OF AN EMPEROR, I'M PARAPHRASING.

CAN YOU JUST GIVE ME THE FACTS ABOUT THE TRADE DEFICIT?

BECAUSE TRUMP SAYS THAT THE U. S. HAS A TRADE DEFICIT AND THAT'S ONE OF THE REASONS WHY HE'S SLAPPING THOSE TARIFFS ON, BUT I THINK IT'S THE REVERSE, ISN'T IT?

>> NO, NO.

HE'S NOT WELL INFORMED, MAYBE HIS ADVISORY DIDN'T PASS ONTO HIM THE RIGHT NUMBERS.

BUT BRAZIL HAS A HUGE DEFICIT, AND IT'S -- >> WITH THE U.S.

>> WITH THE U. S., YES.

WE HAVE OVER THE LAST 15 YEARS, WE HAVE MORE THAN $410 BILLION OF DEFICIT WITH UNITED STATES, IT'S SOMETHING AROUND $20 BILLION EVERY YEAR.

AND OUR TARIFFS, THE AVERAGE TARIFF TARIFFS OF BRAZIL TO IMPORT FROM THE UNITED STATES IS 2.

7%.

>> YEAH.

>> THIS IS VERY LOW.

>> YEAH.

THE THING --THE MOST IMPORTANT ISSUES WE IMPORT --PRODUCTS WE IMPORT FROM THE UNITED STATES OUT OF TEN, EIGHT ENTER BRAZIL TAX-FREE.

>> UH-HUH.

>> SO HE'S NOT WELL-INFORMED, AND HE REPEATED IT ONCE AGAIN.

I THINK IT'S FUNDAMENTAL THAT THEY SPEAK ON THE PHONE.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT PRESIDENT LULA HAS THE OCCASION TO EXPLAIN ALL THAT TO HIM.

>> AND JUST ONE MORE QUESTION, IN RESPONSE TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHO SAID, WITHOUT ME, WITHOUT US, THE UNITED STATES, BRAZIL WILL FAIL.

BUT HAS BRAZIL DIVERSIFIED ITS ECONOMY?

DOES IT RELY TOTALLY ON THE U. S. FOR ITS ECONOMY OR ARE THERE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT BRAZIL -- >> NO, WE HAVE A VERY BALANCED TRADE WITH THE WORLD.

AND WITH EACH CONTINENT OF THE WORLD.

WE HAVE 20% TO 25%.

THE SECOND LARGEST TRADE PARTNER OF BRAZIL IS EUROPEAN UNION.

UNITED STATES IS THIRD.

AND THE FIRST PARTNER IS CHINA.

AND THE TRADE WITH THE UNITED STATES TODAY REPRESENT SOMETHING AROUND 11% OF OUR FOREIGN TRADE, TRADE WITH OTHER COUNTRIES.

SO, OF COURSE, IT'S AN IMPORTANT COUNTRY FOR BRAZIL, IT'S AN IMPORTANT PARTNER IN TERMS OF INVESTMENTS, OF TARIFFS.

WE HAVE ALSO A LOT OF INVESTMENTS, BRAZILIAN BUSINESS PEOPLE WE INVEST IN THE UNITED STATES, WE EXPORT, WE IMPORT, AND THOSE BRAZILIANS WHO INVEST HERE, THEY GENERATE 120,000 JOBS IN THE UNITED STATES, WHICH IS VERY IMPORTANT, SO, WE FAVOR VERY GOOD CLIMATE OF BUSINESS BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

>> SO, DO YOU THEN THINK, AS MANY BRAZILIANS DO, AND MANY OBSERVERS, THAT PART OF PRESIDENT TRUMP'S REACTION TO YOU IS PRESSURE FROM FORMER PRESIDENT BOLSONARO'S SON, WHO CAME HERE TO LOBBY FOR THIS ADMINISTRATION TO RESIST AND TRY TO GET YOUR COUNTRY TO STOP THE INVESTIGATION AND THE PROSECUTION OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT, BOLSONARO?

AND DO YOU THINK THE PRESIDENT IS STILL TRYING TO AFFECT WHAT'S HAPPENING TO BOLSONARO?

I MEAN, PRESIDENT TRUMP?

BECAUSE, EVEN NOW THAT HE'S BEEN CONVICTED OF ATTEMPTING A COUP AGAINST LULA'S ELECTION, YOU SEE YOUR LEGISLATURE IS TALKING ABOUT AMNESTY.

TO, SO, TELL US WHERE ALL THIS STANDS.

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, PRESIDENT TRUMP, OF COURSE, IS A VERY BUSY MAN, BEING PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES, AND HE MAY NOT BE WELL INFORMED.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE HE GETS HIS INFORMATION ABOUT THE POLITICAL SCENE IN BRAZIL, I DON'T KNOW IF HE HAS MET PERSONALLY THE SONS OF THE FORMER PRESIDENT OR HOW THIS INFORMATIONS GET TO HIM, BUT THEY ARE DISTORTED ON THE WAY HE RECEIVES IT.

THE --THE TRIAL WAS VERY LONG.

THERE ARE HUNDREDS OF THOUSANDS OF PROOFS AGAINST BOLSONARO, AGAINST THE GENERALS AND THE PEOPLE WHO WORK FOR HIM.

THEY WERE ALL CONVICTED, AS PRESIDENT LULA SAID, THE FIRST TIME IN HISTORY IN BRAZIL THAT A FORMER PRESIDENT IS TRAILED AND CONDEMNED, BECAUSE HE TRIED TO DESTROY BRAZILIAN DEMOCRACY, AS WELL AS VERY HIGH RANK MILITARY.

SO, AND THIS IS DONE, BECAUSE THE POWERS ARE TOTALLY INDEPENDENT IN BRAZIL.

AND THERE IS NO POSSIBLE INTERFERENCE.

NOT EVEN IN TERMS OF AMNESTY.

ESPECIALLY WITH THIS, BECAUSE THE CONSTITUTION LIMITS THE POWER OF THE PRESIDENT TO GIVE AMNESTY.

AND DEMOCRACY IS FUNDMENTAL, IT CANNOT BE AMNESTY.

>> UNDERSTOOD.

BUT IS YOUR LEGISLATURE ABLE TO VOTE FOR IT OR NOT?

>> OF COURSE, THEY ARE DISCUSSING, THERE IS HUGE --THERE WAS HUGE MANIFESTATION, POPULAR MANIFESTATION IN THE STREETS THE LAST DAYS AGAINST THE AMNESTY.

THEY ARE DISCUSSING, BUT IF THEY APPROVE A VERY AMPLE AMNESTY, IT WILL BE UNCONSTITUTIONAL AND IT WON'T BE APPLIED.

>> SO, AS YOU KNOW, OTHERS HAVE SAID THAT WHAT THE BRAZILIAN DEMOCRATIC AND JUDICIAL PROCESS DID AFTER A FORMER PRESIDENT REFUSED TO RECOGNIZE AN ELECTION AND REFUSED TO ACCEPT THAT HE HAD LOST AN ELECTION, WAS IN A WAY A LESSON TO HOW THE UNITED STATES SHOULD HAVE DONE IT.

YOU KNOW, WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP DIDN'T --AND STILL DOESN'T RECOGNIZE THAT HE LOST THE 2020 ELECTION, THEN THERE WAS THE ASSAULT ON THE CONGRESS, AND NOW THAT HE'S BACK IN OFFICE, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PARDONED ALMOST ALL THOSE WHO WERE CONVICTED UNDER THE JANUARY 6th COUP ATTEMPT.

>> YEAH.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT BRAZIL IS SHOWING HOW DEMOCRACY SHOULD STAND UP FOR ITSELF OR NOT?

>> WELL, I DON'T KNOW IF THIS IS INTERPRETATION OF PRESIDENT TRUMP, IF THIS IS HOW HE SEES THE PROBLEM, BUT WE ARE NOT CONCERNED WITH THE THE OPINION OF OTHER COUNTRIES, WE ARE CONCERNED IN OUR DEMOCRACY, IT'S --WE SHARE A LOT, OUR DEMOCRACY, WE FOUGHT FOR IT, 40 YEARS AGO, WHEN WE APPROVED THE CONSTITUTION IN 1988, AND WE HAVE RESISTED DIFFERENT PRESSURES, ESPECIALLY THIS ONE, WHICH WAS VERY, VERY SERIOUS, WITH A PLAN TO KILL THE PRESIDENT, THE VICE PRESIDENT, AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE SUPREME COURT.

SO, I THINK --AND THE PROOF IS CLEAR, THE TRIAL WAS OPEN, THEY HAD AMPLE RIGHT OF DEFENSE, IT WAS BROADCASTED BY TELEVISION, SO --THERE'S NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

>> I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE PRESIDENT LULA WAS DOING NOT SO WELL IN TERMS OF THE ECONOMY, IN TERMS OF WHAT PEOPLE WERE THINKING BEFORE ALL THIS FLARED UP.

NOW HE'S DOING A LOT BETTER FOR BEING, YOU KNOW, SOMEBODY WHO IS SEEN TO BE STANDING UP TO THE GREATEST SUPERPOWER.

IT'S SERVED HIM WELL, IN A WAY, POLITICALLY, THIS --THIS CONFRONTATION.

>> WELL, WHAT I CAN TELL YOU IS THAT FROM THE ECONOMIC POINT OF VIEW, THE COUNTRY WAS -- UNEMPLOYMENT THE LOWEST IN HISTORY, INFLATION ON THE CONTROL, AND GROWTH, AVERAGE GROWTH OF 3%, 3.

5% A YEAR, WHICH IS GOOD IN THE PRESENT CIRCUMSTANCES AROUND THE WORLD, SO, IN TERMS OF ECONOMY, IT WAS GOING VERY WELL.

AFTER ALL THIS, HE DEFENDED VERY STRONGLY, PRESIDENT LULA DEFENDED VERY STRONGLY THE DEMOCRACY, THE SOCIETY, THE SOVEREIGNTY, AND, OF COURSE, HIS RATE OF APPROVAL, RAISED, YES, RAISED AND THAT'S VERY GOOD.

AND IT'S NOT ONLY BRAZIL, IN OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE REGION, THE SAME HAPPENS, SO -- >> LET ME ASK YOU ANOTHER BIG INTERNATIONAL FORUM THAT YOU'RE GOING TO BE HOSTING IN A COUPLE OF MONTHS, IS THE COP.

IT'S HAPPENING IN, I BELIEVE, IN THE AMAZON REGION.

FIRST OF ALL, YOUR REACTION TO PRESIDENT TRUMP, WHERE, YOU KNOW, HE PROUDLY AGAIN STATED THAT HE HAD PULLED THE UNITED STATES OUT OF THE FAKE, WHAT HE SAID, CLIMATE PARIS CORDS.

HE SAID GREEN ENERGY IS A BIG CON.

THAT ALL COUNTRIES THAT CONTINUE WITH GREEN AND RENEWABLE POLICIES ARE --WILL FAIL.

AND HE SAID IT'S A HUGE SCAM.

WHAT IS YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I WOULD LIKE TO LET IT VERY CLEAR THAT ALTHOUGH BOTH PRESIDENTS HAVE NEVER MET BEFORE AND THEY NEVER SPEAK ONE TO THE OTHER, PRESIDENT LULA CONGRATULATED PRESIDENT TRUMP WHO OPPOSED HIM IN HIS SOCIAL MEDIA WHEN HE WAS ELECTED, AND RECENTLY, MAYBE ABOUT A MONTH AGO, HE SENT A LETTER TO PRESIDENT LULA INVITING HIM TO COME TO COP-30.

THIS IS VERY IMPORTANT, AND THE UNITED STATES IS THE LARGEST ECONOMY, HAS TO BE PRESENT.

WE HOPE HE WILL BE PRESENT, IF NOT, HE WILL APPOINT A HIGH LEVEL OFFICIAL TO REPRESENT THE UNITED STATES.

AND PARTICIPATE IN THIS COP, WHICH WILL BE THE COP OF TRUTH, AS PRESIDENT LULA SAYS, BECAUSE IT'S THE MOMENT TO TAKE VERY IMPORTANT DECISIONS AND TO LAMENT EVERYTHING IS THAT WAS DISCUSSED SO FAR.

AND THIS IS A MOMENT TO TRY TO SAVE THE PLANET AND CONTROL CLIMATE CHANGE.

>> AND JUST BRIEFLY, BEFORE I MOVE ONTO THE PALESTINIAN ISSUE, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID RENEWABLES ARE RUBBISH, ESSENTIALLY, HE SAID THAT THEY DON'T WORK, THAT FOSSIL FUEL IS THE BEST, AND THAT COUNTRIES -- DO YOU FIND YOUR USE OF RENEWABLES ARE NET POSITIVE OR NET DRAG ON YOUR ECONOMY?

>> WELL, THIS IS HIS OPINION, WE HAVE A TOTAL DIFFERENT OPINION.

BRAZIL IS A CHAMPION OF ENERGY AND --CLEAN ENERGY AND ENERGY TRANSITION.

ELECTRICAL MATRIX IN BRAZIL IS 92% RENEWABLE.

AND AS FAR AS ENERGY, IT'S SOMETHING LIKE 50 OR 52.

WE BELIEVE IN RENEWABLES AND WE BELIEVE AND WE ARE FIGHTING FOR ENERGY TRANSITION.

THIS IS A CONTRIBUTION, THIS WILL SAVE THE PLANET.

THAT'S OUR POSITION, OF COURSE, HE HAS A DIFFERENT ONE.

BUT IT'S UP TO HIM.

>> I KNOW BRAZIL RECOGNIZED A PALESTINIAN STATE, OFFICIALLY, I THINK, IN 2010.

YOU WERE VERY MUCH IN THE VANGUARD, BUT A LOT OF ISRAELI ALLIES ACROSS EUROPE, CANADA, AUSTRALIA, ELSEWHERE, HAVE CHOSEN TO DO SO AT THIS UNGER.

WHAT IS YOUR REACTION?

BECAUSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID THIS IS JUST A REWARD FOR HAMAS, THAT THEY NEED TO SEE, OBVIOUSLY, THE HOSTAGES RELEASED, AND THAT'S THE ONLY LINE THAT DREW AN APPLAUSE.

AND OBVIOUSLY THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT IS VERY AGAINST THIS AND IS THREATENING SORT OF RETALIATION.

TELL ME WHY YOU THINK IT'S IMPORTANT, WHAT IT WILL DO AND WHY --AND WHETHER YOU THINK IT IS A REWARD FOR HAMAS AND TERRORISM?

>> IT'S NOT --FROM OUR POINT OF VIEW, IT'S NOT A REWARD FOR HAMAS.

WE CONDEMN HAMAS FOR THE TERRORIST ATTACK THAT WAS TERRIBLE.

WE STRONGLY CONDEMN TOO, TODAY.

BUT THIS DOES NOT JUSTIFY THE VENGEANCE AGAINST THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

THE OTHER DAY, THERE WAS A FORMER HIGH OFFICIAL FROM THE IDF, THE ISRAELI DEFENSE FORCE, WHO SAID THAT THE -- THE NUMBER OF DEATHS IS SOMETHING LIKE 10% OF THE POPULATION OF GAZA, SO, THIS IS 200,000 PEOPLE.

AND SO FAR, THE NUMBERS WE ARE -- >> DEATHS AND INJURIES.

>> LOOKING AT 60,000 OR 70,000.

SO, IT'S VERY SERIOUS.

AND THAT'S WHY PRESIDENT LULA HAS BEEN SAYING THAT IT'S A GENOCIDE, AND THAT'S WHY WE'RE JOINING SOUTH AFRICA IN THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE IN THIS QUESTION AND THIS DISCUSSION ABOUT GENOCIDE.

FOR US, IT'S A GENOCIDE.

YOU CANNOT USE HUNGER AS A WEAPON OF WAR.

YOU CANNOT DO WHAT'S GOING ON IN GAZA.

>> AND WE'LL WAIT TO SEE WHETHER IT MAKES A DIFFERENCE.

AND WE'RE GOING TO HAVE THE ISRAELI AMBASSADOR ON AFTER THIS BREAK.

>> THAT'S GOOD.

>> FOR THE MOMENT, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH, A PLEASURE TO BE WITH YOU AGAIN.

>> AND LIKE WISE, THANK YOU.

> >> WHILE THE POWERFUL GATHER IN THE HALLS BEHIND ME, IN GAZA, PEOPLE ARE DYING.

AS ISRAEL INTENSIFIES ITS OFFENSIVE ON GAZA CITY, IT HAS KILLED DOZENS MORE IN THE ENCLAVE TODAY.

THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION WORSENS BY THE SECOND, AND ISRAELI HOSTAGES ARE LEFT TO LANGUISH AND IN GRAVE DANGER.

TRUMP'S ONLY APPLAUSE LINE TODAY WAS WHEN HE CALLED FOR THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES.

HERE'S WHAT ONE HOSTAGE MOTHER HAS SAID ABOUT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU'S EXISTING PLAN.

>> Translator: HE KNOWS THE DANGER THAT LIES ON THE HEADS OF HOSTAGES AND SOLDIERS HEADS AND DECIDED WITH ELIBERATE INTENT TO SENTENCE HIS PRIME MINISTER'S DEATH.

HE IS SENTENCING HIS CITIZENS TO DEATH.

OUR CHILDREN'S BLOOD IS A POLITICAL INSTRUMENT.

>> ISRAEL IS INCREASINGLY ISOLATED, BUT ITS PRIME MINISTER CONTINUES TO DEFY WARNINGS.

ISRAEL'S AMBASSADOR TO THE UNITED NATIONS, DANNY DANON, IS JOINING ME NOW.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> ALL RIGHT, SO --WOULD YOU DISPUTE THE FACT THAT ISRAEL IS BECOMING INCREASINGLY ISOLATED AND INCREASINGLY VIEWED AS A PARIAH AROUND THE WORLD?

YOU HAVE ALL THESE ALLIES NOW, FROM CANADA TO EUROPE TO AUSTRALIA AND BEYOND, JOINING THE MAJORITY IN RECOGNIZING A PALESTINIAN STATE, OFFICIALLY.

>> IT'S BEEN A VERY LONG WAR.

AS FOR US.

NO UNEXPECTED IT TO LAST TWO YEARS.

WE DIDN'T EXPECT IT TO BE SO LONG.

AND I KNOW THAT MANY COUNTRIES WANT TO SHOW THAT THEY ARE DOING SOMETHING.

BUT WE ARE FOCUSED ON THE GOALS OF THE WAR.

AND THE GOALS ARE TO BRING THE HOSTAGES BACK AND ELIMINATE HAMAS.

WE HAVE ACHIEVED A LOT.

BUT WE HAVEN'T FINISHED THE JOB.

AND WE ARE COMMITTED.

THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TELLING OUR ALLIES.

IT IS VERY NICE TO HAVE ALL THOSE DECLARATIONS, THE CONFERENCES, BUT LET'S FACE REALITY.

AND PRESIDENT TRUMP GIVE A VERY POWERFUL SPEECH, AND HE FACED REALITY.

THE REALITY IS, WE ARE 48 HOSTAGES STILL IN GAZA.

WE HAVE TO DO EVERYTHING WE CAN, AND WE WILL BRING THEM BACK HOME, AND HAMAS IS STILL IN PART OF GAZA, STILL THEY HAVE CONTROL.

I THINK THAT WE ARE MOVING FORWARD AND WE'RE GETTING CLOSE TO THE SITUATION WHERE WE'RE ABLE TO DEFEAT HAMAS.

IT'S NOT EASY FOR US TO HEAR THE CONDEMNATIONS, BUT I WOULD ASK ANY LEADER THAT CAME HERE TODAY, WHAT WOULD YOU DO IF YOU HAD 48 CITIZENS OF YOUR OWN COUNTRY IN GAZA?

>> IT IS AN AWFUL SITUATION FOR THOSE HOSTAGES, THERE IS NO DOUBT ABOUT IT.

BUT MANY OF THE FAMILIES SAY THAT IT IS YOUR GOVERNMENT'S POLICIES THAT ARE, YOU KNOW, LENGTHENING THEIR ISSUES AND THEIR IMPRISONMENT AND CAPTIVITY AND THEIR MORTAL DANGER.

MANY HOSTAGES HAVE SAID THE NEWEST OFFENSIVE IN GAZA ARE HARMING THEIR LIVES.

THE BOMBING IN --I SEE YOU SHAKING YOUR HEAD.

>> WE HAVE NO INTEREST TO PROLONG THIS WAR.

>> NO, I'M TALKING ABOUT THE HOSTAGES NOW.

>> I'M TELLING THAT ALSO TO THE HOSTAGE FAMILIES.

WE MEET THEM, WE HOST THEM HERE, THEY WILL COME HERE THE DAY AFTER TOMORROW.

BUT WE'RE DOING EVERYTHING WE CAN TO BRING THEM HOME.

AND SITTING BY AND WAITING FOR HAMAS TO GET THE RELEASE OF THE HOSTAGES IS NOT GOING TO HAPPEN.

ONLY PRESSURE ON HAMAS WILL MOVE THE NEEDLE.

WE ARE PLANNING MORE PRESSURE.

AND I THINK IT'S MOVING TO THE RIGHT DIRECTION.

>> YOU KNOW, I'VE COVERED MANY WARS, AND BY THE WAY, I'M GOING TO MAKE A FORMAL PETITION TO YOU RIGHT NOW TO LET US INTO GAZA.

YOU CAN ANSWER ME IN A SECOND.

BUT WHAT WE'VE SEEN IS THAT THE UNITED STATES, YOUR CLOSEST ALLY, SAID THAT THIS TIME LAST YEAR, IN FACT, MORE THAN A YEAR AGO, ISRAEL HAD ACCOMPLISHED ITS MILITARY OBJECTIVES.

YOU HAD DEFEATED HAMAS AS A RULING ENTITY, AS A POWERFUL ENTITY, AND YOU COULD HAVE GONE INTO MORE NEGOTIATIONS TO GET YOUR HOSTAGES BACK THEN.

THAT'S NUMBER ONE.

NUMBER TWO, YOUR OWN MILITARY OFFICIALS, YOUR FORMER CHIEF OF STAFF OF THE MILITARY, HAS SAID THAT THIS YEAR, HE TOLD A COMMUNITY MEETING IN SOUTHERN ISRAEL THAT 1 IN 10 PALESTINIANS, IE 10% OF PALESTINIANS OF GAZA, HAVE BEEN KILLED OR INJURED SINCE THIS WAR BEGAN.

MORE THAN 200,000 PEOPLE KILLED OR INJURED, AND THAT ISRAEL TOOK THE GLOVES OFF AND FACED NO LEGAL RESTRICTIONS IN ITS ACTIONS.

THIS HAS GONE BEYOND WHAT MOST PEOPLE WOULD SAY WAS YOUR RIGHT TO SELF-DEFENSE.

CIVILIANS ARE BEING KILLED BY THE THOUSANDS EVERY DAY AND STARVED TO DEATH.

>> I BEG TO DIFFER WITH YOU ABOUT EVERYTHING.

AND LET'S START WITH -- >> WHAT?

THIS IS YOUR OWN PEOPLE THAT ARE SAYING THIS.

>> LET'S START ABOUT THE IDEA OF HAMAS.

EVERY LEADER THAT'S SPOKEN IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY SPOKE ABOUT THE DAY AFTER WITHOUT HAMAS.

>> YES.

>> EVEN PRESIDENT MACK RON SAID IT.

>> CORRECT.

>> MY QUESTION IS, WHO IS EXACTLY GOING TO REMOVE HAMAS?

>> YOU'VE ALREADY -- >> NO.

IT'S NOT TRUE.

>> THEY'RE SAYING SO.

>> HAMAS IS NOT LISTENING TO THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY.

THEY'RE NOT TAKING ORDERS.

THE ONLY WAY TO GET RID OF HAMAS IS WHAT WE ARE DOING.

THE BURDEN IS ON OUR SHOULDERS.

IT'S EASY TO SAY HAMAS WILL NOT BE PART OF THE EQUATION, BUT IT'S UP TO US TO COMPLETE THE JOB.

AND WE HAVE ACCOMPLISHED A LOT, BUT WE HAVEN'T FINISHED THE JOB.

YOU HAVE AREAS TODAY THAT HAMAS IS STILL IN CONTROL.

IF ISRAEL TODAY PULL OUT OF GAZA AND ALLOW HAMAS TO REBUILD ITS POWER, IT'S A THREAT TO ISRAEL AND THE PALESTINIANS ARE DOOMED WITH THE REGIME OF HAMAS.

>> THE LATEST FACTS SAY THAT ISRAEL HAS NOW CONTROLLED AND DOES CONTROL 75% OF GAZA AND, AGAIN, THAT HAMAS IS, YOU KNOW, NOT THE MAJOR THREAT THAT IT WAS AND NOT THE POWER THAT IT WAS AFTER OCTOBER 7th.

I WOULD ASK YOU THIS, AS WE KNOW, TRUMP DID CALL FOR THE --FOR THE RELEASE AND EVERYBODY HAS, EVERYBODY HAS CALLED FOR THE RELEASE OF THE REMAINING HOSTAGES, BUT THAT HAS ONLY COME SO FAR BY NEGOTIATIONS AND CEASE-FIRE.

YOU'VE HAD A FEW SUCCESSES IN RESCUING THEM, BUT EQUALLY, MILITARY ATTEMPTS HAVE LED TO DEATHS OF HOSTAGES.

NOW, IN THE UNITED STATES, IN YOUR MOST IMPORTANT ALLY, YOU ARE SEEING PUBLIC OPINION PLUMMET, AND I'VE HEARD MANY OF YOUR MAIN SUPPORTERS HERE IN THE UNITED STATES SAY, THIS IS A DANGER FOR ISRAEL.

THAT 9% OF YOUNG AMERICANS, ONLY 9%, SUPPORT YOU CURRENTLY.

A RECENT L SAYS BETWEEN 2018 AND '21, THE SHARE OF EVANGELICALS UNDER THE AGE OF 30, WHO BACKED YOU OVER THE PALESTINIANS, PLUNGED FROM 69% TO 34%.

AND AN AP POLL SAYS 50% OF AMERICANS SAY THE MILITARY'S RESPONSE HAS GONE TOO FAR.

>> WE'VE SEEN THAT.

>> MY QUESTION AGAIN, WHEN WILL YOU GO INTO A DAY AFTER NEGOTIATION?

TO TALK ABOUT THE END OF THE WAR?

>> MAYBE YOU HAVE A SHORT MEMORY, BUT I DON'T.

>> I DON'T HAVE A SHORT MEMORY.

>> I HAVEN'T FORGOTTEN -- >> NOR HAVE IT.

>> WITH ALL DUE RESPECT TO THE LEADERS AND THE DECLARE RATIONS, WE HAVE A COMMITMENT.

>> YES.

>> AND THE COMMITMENT IS TO BRING THE HOSTAGES CORRECT.

>> CORRECT.

>> WE BELIEVE IF WE STOP THE WAR NOW, WE WILL NOT GET THEM BACK.

ALL THE DEALS THAT YOU MENTIONED WERE BROUGHT BECAUSE WE USED MILITARY POWER.

CALLS FROM THE U. N. WILL NOT RELEASE THE HOSTAGES, IT'S ONLY THE MILITARY AND THE MIGHT OF THE IDF THAT BROUGHT HAMAS IN A POSITION TO NEGOTIATE WITH US.

AND THAT'S WHAT IS GOING TO HAPPEN.

WE'RE GOING TO PUT MORE PRESSURE, AND I BELIEVE THAT WE WILL BRING HAMAS TO A POSITION THAT THEY'LL HAVE TO ACCEPT A DEAL.

THEY'LL RELEASE THE HOSTAGES AND GIVE THE KEYS TO SOMEBODY ELSE.

WE HEARD MANY PEOPLE SPEAKING ALLOWING THE PALESTINIANS TO RULE IN GAZA AND A DEMAND TO GIVE THEM THE KEYS.

WE GAVE THEM THE KEYS.

20 YEARS AGO, EXACTLY 20 YEARS AGO, PRIME MINISTER SHARON HANDED THE KEYS FOR GAZA TO THE PALESTINIANS.

HE UPROOTED THE JEWISH COMMUNITIES, TOOK OUT THE MILITARY OUT OF GAZA, AND WE TOLD THEM, GO, BUILD YOUR FUTURE.

LET'S LIVE TOGETHER.

COEXIST.

WE AREN'T GOING TO BE THERE.

WE LEFT THE BORDER WITH EGYPT AND WE LEFT IT TO THEM.

AND WE SAW WHAT HAPPENED.

SO, WE WILL NOT MAKE THAT MISTAKE AGAIN.

>> MANY PEOPLE SAY THAT PRIME MINISTER SHARON PULLED OUT WITH NO NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY OR THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY AND JUST BASICALLY LEFT THIS PLACE TO THEM.

>> EXACTLY.

>> WE KNOW WHAT HAPPENED AND I COVERED THE ELECTIONS AND I KNOW WHAT HAPPENED SINCE.

BUT ISRAEL HAS HAD CONTROL OF THAT PLACE EVER SINCE AND MY QUESTION TO YOU IS, NOW, WHAT IS YOUR REACTION GOING TO BE?

BECAUSE TO THE RECOGNITION AND TO THE OTHER THINGS, BECAUSE WE HEAR, WE KNOW, THAT BRT ENJAMIN NETANYAHU, YOUR PRIME MINISTER, HAS SLAPPED ANOTHER SIEGE ON THE WEST BANK IN THE LAST FEW DAYS, CLOSING THE LAST AVAILABLE IN AND OUT PLACE INTO THE WEST BANK, THAT'S A BRIDGE INTO JORDAN.

WE HEAR SOME OF YOUR MORE EXTREME MINISTERS TALK ABOUT ZERO EVER PALESTINIAN STATE, SO DOES THE PRIME MINISTER.

AND THE EXPULSION OF ALL PALESTINIANS.

CAN YOU TELL ME, WHAT IS IT?

IS IT THE EXPULSION OF ALL PALESTINIANS?

IS IT TRYING TO GET THEM TO VOLUNTARILY LEAVE?

IS IT TO SIEGE BOTH THE WEST BANK AND GAZA?

>> THERE'S NO DECISION OF THE GOVERNMENT OF ISRAEL ABOUT EXPELLING ANYONE.

THAT'S A LIE.

THE ONLY THING THAT PRIME MINISTER SAID THAT HE WILL SPEAK HERE ON FRIDAY, MEET PRESIDENT TRUMP ON MONDAY, THEN HE WILL COME BACK TO ISRAEL AND DISCUSS WHAT ISRAEL SHOULD DO, FOLLOWING WHAT WE SAW HERE AT THE U. N.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK?

>> I THINK WHAT HAPPENS HERE -- >> WHAT DO YOU THINK THE REACTION WILL BE OF YOUR GOVERNMENT.

>> I WILL GET TO THAT, BUT WHY IT'S IMPORTANT, BECAUSE WE BELIEVE IN NEGOTIATIONS.

WE ARE A PEACEFUL NATION.

WE SIGNED PEACE TREATIES WITH JORDAN -- >> EGYPT IS CALLING YOU THE ENEMY.

>> WITH THE UAE, WITH BAHRAIN.

AND ALSO, BY THE WAY, WE HAD NEGOTIATIONS WITH THE PALESTINIANS IN THE PAST.

AND IN THAT NEGOTIATION, YOU HAVE SOME KEY ISSUES TO DECISION CUSS.

THE ISSUE OF STATEHOOD, BORDERS, REFUGEES, JERUSALEM, WHAT'S HAPPENING HERE IS THIS SHOW, THEY'RE TRYING TO BYPASS DIRECT NEGOTIATIONS.

PRESIDENT MACRON BELIEVES THEY WILL COME AND RECOGNIZE PALESTINIAN STATE AND IT WILL HAPPEN TOMORROW MORNING.

THAT DOES NOT HAPPEN IN OUR -- >> HE TALKS ABOUT A CEASE-FIRE, ALL OF THEM TALK ABOUT THE RETURN OF THE HOSTAGES.

THEY TALK ABOUT PHASES.

NOBODY IS IGNORING WHAT'S IMPORTANT TO YOU.

BUT MANY ISRAELIS, INCLUDES HOSTAGE FAMILIES, SAYING THIS IS NOT THE WAY TO GET THE HOSTAGES.

AND THEY DON'T THINK THAT'S YOUR NUMBER ONE GOAL ANYMORE.

>> PEACE IN THE MIDDLE EAST WILL COME FROM DIRECT NEGOTIATIONS.

>> THEN WHY DO YOU THINK -- >> I THINK THERE SHOULD BE A RESPONSE TOWARDS WHAT HAPPENED HERE.

>> WHAT WILL THAT BE?

>> THE GOVERNMENT WILL HAVE TO SIT DOWN AND DISCUSS IT.

AND THERE ARE DIFFERENT WAYS.

YOU CAN ENHANCE THE JEWISH COMMUNITY -- >> THAT MEANS MORE SETTLEMENTS.

>> YOU CAN TAKE ACTIONS AGAINST THE P.A., WHICH ORCHESTRATED THIS CHARADE.

YOU CAN SHOW WHAT WE REALLY THINK ABOUT PRESIDENT MACRON -- >> IT'S A LOT OF ALLIES.

IT'S EVERY MEMBER, PERMANENT MEMBERS OF THE SECURITY COUNCIL EXCEPT FOR THE UNITED STATES.

>> OKAY.

>> THIS IS A BIG THING.

BUT I WANT TO ASK YOU, BECAUSE YOU SAID THAT ONLY DIRECT NEGOTIATIONS WILL LEAD TO PEACE.

AND YET, I ASSUME YOU SUPPORTED OR ASKED THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO DENY THE P.A., AGAIN, THE ONLY BODY THAT'S LEGITIMATELY RECOGNIZED AS THE REPRESENTATIVES OF THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY, YOU'VE DENIED THEM VISAS.

MAHMOUD ABBAS CANNOT COME HERE.

SO, HOW DOES THAT GO TO YOUR POINT?

>> IT WAS A U. S. DECISION.

I THINK IT WAS THE RIGHT -- >> APPARENTLY IT'S AGAINST THE U. N. CHARTER.

>> I'LL TELL YOU WHY IT WAS THE RIGHT DECISION.

PEOPLE MAYBE THE DISTINCTION BETWEEN THE HAMAS AND P.A., THEY CONTINUE TO PAY TERRORISTS, THEY HAVE A PAY TO SLAY POLICY.

THERE WAS A TERROR ATTACK IN JERUSALEM, SIX ISRAELIS WERE MASSACRED.

THE P.A., PRESIDENT ABBAS, WILL PAY THE FAMILIES OF THE TERRORISTS A MONTHLY SALARY OF $1,000 A MONTH FOR LIFE.

>> FROM WHAT I GATHER, THAT IS NO LONGER THE CASE.

>> NO, THAT'S THE CASE.

>> IT -- >> AND YOU CAN ASK PRESIDENT ABBAS NEXT TIME YOU INTERVIEW HIM.

>> I WILL.

>> AND HE WILL TELL YOU -- >> I'LL ASK HIS REPRESENTATIVE TOMORROW, ACTUALLY.

>> AND THEY WILL TELL YOU FOR THEM, THAT'S PART OF THEIR IDEOLOGY AND PRESIDENT ABBAS SAID IT IN THE GENERAL ASSEMBLY LAST YEAR WHEN HE CAME HERE, THE LAST DOLLAR HE HAS, HE WILL USE IT TO PAY FOR THE FAMILIES OF THE MARTYRS.

THAT'S WHAT HE CALLED THE TERRORISTS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU A QUESTION.

DO YOU SEE THE PICTURES?

OKAY, SO, WE'VE JUST HAD THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF BRAZIL, AND HE SAID --HE USED THE WORD VENGEANCE.

THIS VENGEANCE THAT ISRAEL IS TAKING, AFTER THE TERRIBLE CRIMES OF OCTOBER 7th, AND EVERYBODY KNOWS THAT THEY WERE TERRIBLE CRIMES.

BUT THIS VENGEANCE -- >> IT'S NOT A VENGEANCE.

>> IT'S GONE OVERBOARD.

EVEN PRESIDENT BIDEN, YOUR STRONGEST COLLABORATOR, ALLY, CAME FROM THE UNITED STATES TO ISRAEL AND SAID TO THE PRIME MINISTER, DON'T DO WHAT WE DID IN VENGEANCE AFTER 9/11.

DON'T DO WHAT WE DID -- >> IT'S NOT A VENGEANCE.

I'M LOOKING AT YOU AND I'M TELLING YOU, IT'S NOT A VENGEANCE.

WE WANT --IT CAN BE OVER TOMORROW MORNING, ONCE THE HOSTAGES ARE RELEASED, HAMAS GIVE THESE WEAPONS, YOU KNOW, YOU REMEMBER WHAT HAPPENED IN BEIRUT WHEN THE PLO WAS DEPORTED TO ANOTHER COUNTRY.

IT'S GOING TO BE OVER IN ONE DAY.

BUT IT WILL NOT BE OVER WITH HOSTAGES IN GAZA AND HAMAS IN POWER IN GAZA.

AND WE WANT IT TO BE OVER, YOU KNOW, MY FATHER, MY LATE FATHER FOUGHT IN GAZA.

I MYSELF SERVED IN GAZA.

MY SON WAS IN GAZA AS AN OFFICER.

WE HAVE NO DESIRE TO BE THERE.

WE DON'T WANT TO SEND OUR BOYS TO RISK THEIR LIVES.

EVERY DAY, WE HAVE ISRAELI CASUALTIES IN GAZA.

WE WANT TO PULL OUT, BUT WE WILL PULL OUT WHEN WE KNOW THAT WE GOT THE HOSTAGES BACK AND THAT HAMAS IS OUT OF THE GAME.

>> AS YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT BIDEN AND HIS SECRETARY OF STATE TOLD ME AS THEY WERE LEAVING, HIS SECRETARY OF STATE, THAT BECAUSE OF THIS WAR, EVEN MORE HAMAS ARE BEING RECRUITED.

ALMOST THE SAME YOU SAY YOU'RE KILLING.

AND I GUESS IN THE END, I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER FOR YOU AND FOR THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, THE DEATH OF SO MANY CHILDREN AND WOMEN CAN EVER BE A JUSTIFICATION?

YOU'RE GOING AFTER, YOU SAY, AFTER HAMAS, BUT THE INTERIM, THE COLLATERAL DAMAGE IS A HORRIBLE WORD, THE CIVILIAN CASUALTIES, AND --ARE HUGE AND I WONDER HOW ISRAEL, WHICH HAS SUFFERED SUCH HORROR IN ITS PAST, WILL BE ABLE TO GET OVER THIS AND ANSWER TO THIS.

EVEN NOW, SOME OF YOUR RESERVISTS, THEY DON'T WANT TO GO, THEY'RE WRITING LETTERS, THEY'RE SAYING THAT WE'VE ACHIEVED OUR AIMS -- >> IT'S NOT TRUE.

>> WELL, WE SEE THE LETTERS AND SO DO YOUR FORMER DEFENSE AND INTELLIGENCE PEOPLE.

THEY SAY IT.

>> WE HAVE A STRONG NATION.

WE REGRET THE LOSS OF LIFE OF ANY CIVILIANS, BUT TO BLAME IT ON HAMAS, PERIOD.

WE HAD A CEASE-FIRE BEFORE OCTOBER 7th.

THEY CAME INTO OWN COMMUNITIES, KIDNAPPED OUR BABIES, RAPED OUR WOMEN, DON'T BLAME US FOR WHAT WE ARE DOING.

IT'S THE RULE OF SELF-DEFENSE.

>> NOT BLAMING.

NOT BLAMING THE VICTIMS.

>> WHEN THE U. S. ATTACKED OSAMA BIN LADEN AND THERE WERE CASUALTIES AMONG CIVILIANS, NO ONE BLAMED THE U. S. BUT WE REGRET IT, I WILL TELL YOU THAT.

WE REGRET IT.

AND THINK WE CARE MORE ABOUT THE FUTURE OF THE PALESTINIANS IN GAZA THAN HAMAS.

WE WANT TO HAVE A FUTURE FOR THEM, BUT THERE WILL BE NO FUTURE FOR THEM IF HAMAS WILL STAY IN POWER.

>> I THINK THE QUESTION IS, WHERE DOES LEGITIMATE SELF-DEFENSE BEGIN AND END?

ANYWAY, YOU'VE ANSWERED THE QUESTION, AND WE WILL CONTINUE TO WATCH IT AND WE'LL INVITE YOU BACK ON THE PROGRAM AS THE ISRAELI RESPONSE -- >> I HOPE THAT -- >> BECOMES MORE APPARENT.

>> I HOPE THAT WE WILL DO IT AFTER THE HOSTAGES ARE BACK.

>> I HOPE SO, TOO, AND I HOPE YOU WILL LET, ON BEHALF OF THE GLOBAL PRESS, WHO HAS ME TIGED YOUR GOVERNMENT TO ALLOW US TO GO AND TO REPORT ON WHAT'S GOING ON, SO WE CAN SEE ALL SIDES OF THE STORY.

WHY DO YOU KEEP US OUT?

>> WE WANT TO KEEP YOU SAFE.

>> WE'RE WAR CORRESPONDENTS.

WE'LL CONTINUE THIS CONVERSATION.

>> THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU, AMBASSADOR.

> >> NOW, AS WE SAID, IN HIS LENGTHY SPEECH HERE AT THE UNITED NATIONS TODAY, PRESIDENT TRUMP REPEATED AGAIN AND AGAIN HOW STRONG THE U. S. ECONOMY IS UNDER HIS LEADERSHIP.

BUT DOES THIS REFLECT REALITY?

THE FEDERAL RESERVE IS LOWERING INTEREST RATES IN AN EFFORT TO LIFT UP THE DETERIORATING U. S. LABOR MARKET, BUT IT'S THE FIRST TIME SINCE DECEMBER THAT ITS TAKEN ANY ACTION, SO, HOW CAN THE FED BECOME MORE RESPONSIVE TO THE NEEDS OF DEMOCRACY?

IN HIS LATEST "NEW YORK TIMES" ESSAY, ADAM TOOZE IS TRYING TO ANSWER THAT QUESTION BY TAKING A DEEP DIVE INTO THE AMERICAN CENTRAL BANKING SYSTEM.

AND EXPLORING THE CHALLENGES IT FACES TODAY.

HE ED WALTER ISAACSON TO EXPLAIN.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

ADAM, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GLAD TO BE HERE.

>> IN A SUPREME COURT RULING THIS PAST MAY, WHICH IT ALLOWED THE PRESIDENT TO DISMISS A LOT OF EMPLOYEES FROM INDEPENDENT AGENCIES, IT HAD A CARVEOUT FOR THE FEDERAL RESERVE, AND IT SAID IT WAS A UNIQUELY STRUCTURED QUASI-PRIVATE ENTITY WITH A DISTINCT HISTORIC TRADITION.

EXPLAIN THAT TO ME.

>> YEAH, THIS IS ABOUT AN EXTRAORDINARY FACT THAT THIS CENTRAL AGENCY OF GOVERNMENT, I THINK EVERYONE, GENERALLY, WHEN THEY FOLLOW THE NEWS, THINKS OF THE FED AS PART OF THE GOVERNMENT, THE AMERICAN STATE, DOES INDEED HAVE ORIGINS IN 19th CENTURY BANKING POLITICS, AND THIS MAKES IT LIKE OTHER CENTRAL BANKS.

CENTRAL BANKS ARE BANKS TO BANKERS, AND BANKERS ARE A VERY POWERFUL LOBBY BROWN.

FROM THE LATE 19th CENTURY ON, IT WAS CLEAR THAT AMERICA AS IT ENTERED THE 20th CENTURY WAS GOING TO NEED A CENTRAL BANK, AND THIS WAS A HUGELY CONTROVERSIAL ISSUE IN GILDED AGE AMERICA, WITH POPULOUS PARTS OF THE U. S. PROTESTING AND WANTING EASY MONEY AND WALL STREET, WHICH, AT THE TIME, WAS VERY REMOTE FROM OTHER PARTS OF THE U.S., ANCHORING ITSELF ON THE GLOBAL GOLD STANDARD THAT WAS CENTERED ON LONDON AT THE TIME.

>> SO, THAT BEGINS IN 1913, WITH THE FED AND IT'S A TIME WHEN WILLIAM JENNINGS BRIAN RUNNING FOR PRESIDENT IS SAYING THAT WE SHOULDN'T BE CRUCIFIED ON THE CROSS OF GOLD.

THEY WANT EASY MONEY, THEY WANT, YOU KNOW, THEY DON'T WANT --IS THAT WHY THE FED WAS STARTED, SO THAT THE BANKERS COULD HAVE A MORE STABLE CURRENCY?

>> IT'S A COMPROMISE.

SO, DE FACTO THE U. S. AFTER THE CIVIL WAR WAS ON THE GOLD STAND ABOUT, WHICH WAS PUNISHINGLY AUSTERE, RIGHT?

TO GET BACK TO THE GOLD STANDARD AFTER THE U. S. CIVIL WAR, THERE BECAUSE SEVERE DEFLATION.

AMERICAN FEDERAL GOVERNMENT AT THE TIME IS A TINY, TINY FRACTION OF THE AMERICAN ECONOMY.

SO, EFFECTIVELY, IT WAS TIED TO THE BRITISH-BASED GOLD SYSTEM, AND THAT'S WHAT PROVOKED THE POPULIST BACKLASH OF THE 1890s.

THINK OF THIS IN TERMS OF NEGATIVE EQUITY, IF YOU HAVE A MORTGAGE ON A PROPERTY NOW, IF YOU'RE IN THE SUBURBS, OR IF YOU'RE A FARMER, AND ALL OF A SUDDEN, THE PRICE OF EVERYTHING STARTS FALLING, INCLUDING THE VALUE OF YOUR PROPERTY.

YOU'RE IN A PICKLE, BECAUSE YOU ARE GOING TO END UP IN DEEPER AND DEEPER NEGATIVE EQUITY.

WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYAN'S GREAT RUN FOR HIS RUN FOR THE PRESIDENCY SEVERAL TIMES WAS ALL ABOUT TRYING TO LOOSEN THAT CROSS OF GOLD THAT WAS BEING PRESSED DOWN.

FROM THE POINT OF VIEW OF WALL STREET, THE MONEY THERE IS A CAUSE OF HUGE PANIC.

SO, WHAT DO YOU DO?

BY 1913, UNDER THE STEWARDSHIP OF THE VERY COOLLY PROCESSIVE, QUITE ARIS CATTIC FIGURE OF WOODROW WILSON, YOU HAVE A COMPROMISE.

AND IT HAS ELEMENTS OF THE WALL STREET BANKING INTEREST AND IT HAS ELEMENTS OF POPULISM.

AN THEN A STRUGGLE HAS UED, AND THEN HAS NEVER STOPPED, ABOUT WHAT THE FED'S PRIORITIES ARE AND WHAT IT SHOULD GIVE THE CENTRALITY TO.

SHOULD IT BE MONETARY STABILITY, SHOULD IT BE COB NEXTS TO THE WIDER WORLD?

OR SHOULD IT BE THE INTEREST OF AMERICA'S DOMESTIC POLITICAL ECONOMY AS DIVERSE AS THOSE ARE, RIGHT?

SO, THAT'S THE KIND OF SETUP AND, INDEED, WE'RE STILL LIVING IN THAT -- IN THAT ARGUMENT, THAT ONGOING ARGUMENT.

>> WELL, THE CURRENT ARGUMENT ABOUT THE FED, REALLY, IT SEEMS TO BEGIN IN 1979, WITH PAUL VOLCKER, WHERE HE REALLY JACKS UP INTEREST RATES TO FIGHT INFLATION, AND YOU HAVE A TWO-PRONG SYSTEM.

TRYING TO FIGHT INFLATION, BUT TRYING TO KEEP UNEMPLOYMENT FROM GOING TOO FAR UP.

TELL ME HOW THAT IS --DEFINES THE FED TODAY.

>> I THINK I MIGHT ROLL IT BACK ANOTHER DECADE TO THE LATE '60s, OR, INDEED, THE '60s AND TAKE PEOPLE TO THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT, BECAUSE THAT'S REALLY WHERE THE DEBATE ABOUT FULL EMPLOYMENT TAKES CENTER STAGE.

THE '60s ARE THOUGHT OF AS A PERIOD OF BIG GOVERNMENT, GREAT SOCIETY, WE'RE DOING THE MANIPULATION OF THE U. S. ECONOMY, AMERICA BEING A SOCIETY OF RACIALIZED INEQUALITY.

THE REALLY CUTTING QUESTION, THE CANARY IN THE GOLD MINE IS BLACK MALE UNEMPLOYMENT.

NO ONE UNDERSTOOD THIS BETTER THAN THE MARTIN LUTHER KING WING OF THE CIVIL RIGHTS MOVEMENT.

SO, FROM THE '60s ONWARDS, THERE'S AN ARGUMENT GOING ON ON THE AMERICAN LEFT ABOUT WHAT THE PRIORITIES OF ECONOMIC POLICY SHOULD BE.

AND THOSE ARE WRITTEN IN THE '70s, WHILE THE BATTLE IS STILL GOING ON FOR THE HEARTS AND MINDS OF AMERICAN POLITICS.

LAST REALLY GREAT STRUGGLE, INTO THE HUMPHREY HAWKINS FEDERAL RESERVE ACT, WHICH GIVES IT THE DUAL MANDATE THAT YOU REFER TO, ONLY SHORTLY THEREAFTER, FOR THE CARTER APPOINTED HARD MONEY BOARD OF THE FED, COMING OUT OF WALL STREET WITH PAUL VOLCKER AT THE HELM.

WE THINK OF HIM AS A LOVELY CENTRIST, BUT HE WAS A HARD MAN OF MONEY, TO YANK UP INTEREST RATES, AS YOU SAY, AND FUNDAMENTALLY TILT AMERICA'S POLITICAL ECONOMY AWAY FROM THE AMERICAN WORKING CLASS, UNEMPLOYMENT SHOOTS UP.

THERE'S AN ARGUMENT ABOUT HOW VOLCKER HIMSELF INTENDED THIS, BUT THERE WERE KEY MOMENTS IN HIS VARIOUS SPEECHES WHERE HE MAKES PRETTY CLEAR THAT HE UNDERSTANDS THE BREAKING TRADE UNION POWER IS KEEP TO SHIFTING AMERICA'S POLITICAL ECONOMY, AND JUST FROM A TECHNOCRATIC POINT OF YOU, ONCE DO THAT, IT'S EASIER TO ADJUST THE COST OF LIVING.

THE BIG TRADE UNIONS IN THE '70s ARE ALL ABOUT INDEXING.

THAT'S BROKEN IN THE '70s BY THE VOLCKER SHOCK.

AND SO, THEN WE EMERGE IN THIS NEW WORLD OF INDEPENDENT CENTRAL BANKING, WITH TECHNOCRATIC LEADERSHIP.

Ph.

D IN ECONOMICS IS THE MINIMUM QUALIFICATION FOR THIS INCREDIBLY POLITICAL JOB.

>> IN "THE NEW YORK TIMES" OPINION PIECE THAT YOU WROTE RECENTLY, YOU SAID, WHEN YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP TRYING TO INFLUENCE OR OVERWHELM THE FED, YOU SAID, WE SHOULD START BY THINKING, WHAT TYPE OF CENTRAL BANK DO WE WANT TO HAVE?

TELL ME WHAT YOU MEAN BY THAT.

>> WELL, TAKE THIS AS A PARTICULAR INSTANCE OF A MORE GENERAL DILEMMA OF PROGRESSIVE PEOPLE IN THE U. S. RIGHT NOW IN THE FACE OF THE TRUMP ONSLAUGHT, WHICH IS, IS OUR FIRST AND PRIMARY REFLEX AND INDEED IN SOME SENSES DUTY AND RESPONSIBILITY TO JUST SIMPLY DEFEND THE STATUS QUO AGAINST THIS ONSLAUGHT, OR DOES THAT CONDEMN YOU TO A LACK OF IMAGINATION AND ULTIMATELY ALSO A LACK OF ABILITY TO MOBILIZE AGAINST TRUMP?

BECAUSE ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S ENERGIZING MAGA RIGHT NOW, THEY'VE UNLEASHED THE POLITICAL IMAGINATION OF THEIR PEOPLE.

THERE'S NOTHING THEY DON'T THINK THEY CAN DO.

AND THE PROBLEM WITH THE DEFENSIVE POSITION THAT'S BEEN ADOPTED, I THINK, BY MANY PEOPLE IN --IN NOT JUST THIS AREA OF CENTRAL BANKING, BUT ACROSS THE BOARD, IS THAT IT ROBS YOU OF THAT OPPORTUNITY TO KEEP THINKING.

AND THAT'S WHAT I'M APPEALING FOR US TO DO, BUT ALSO, SIMPLY, I MEAN, NOT JUST ON KIND OF META GROUNDS, BUT TACTICALLY.

SAY THAT TRUMP MANAGES TO SEIZE CONTROL OF THE FED.

WHEN, YOU KNOW, THE MOMENT COMES WHERE THE DEMOCRATS TAKE BACK CONTROL OF CONGRESS AND MAYBE THE WHITE HOUSE, WHAT'S THE AGENDA GOING TO BE?

ARE WE GOING TO SIMPLY RESTORE THE OLD FED?

SAY WE MANAGE TO STOP HIM, SAY THE COURTS S ACTUALLY BOMB HIS BLOCK HIS EFFORT.

SAY THEY DON'T MANAGE TO FIRE LISA COOK.

IS THE NEXT MOVE GOING TO BE TO MAKE IT EVEN HARDER TO FIRE GOVERNORS OF THE FEDERAL RESERVE?

>> WELL, WHAT'S YOUR ANSWER THERE?

WHAT SHOULD WE DO TRYING TO DO WITH THE FED?

>> WHAT I THINK WE SHOULD BE TRAIING TO DO IS THINK ABOUT WHAT WE THINK A DEMOCRATIC FED WOULD LOOK LIKE.

A PROPERLY DEMOCRATIC -- >> DEMOCRATIC MEANING RESPONSIVE TO THE PEOPLE, NOT TO THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY.

>> AND TO THEIR REPRESENTATIVES.

I THINK THE REAL ISSUE HERE IS CONGRESS.

IS --AND RIGHT NOW, THE FED BUDGET DOES NOT HAVE ANY SERIOUS CONGRESSIONAL OVERSIGHT.

THERE'S A KIND OF SYSTEM THAT RUNS BY THE POLITICIZATION OF THE APPOINTMENT OF FED GOVERNORS, BUT IT'S NOT ACTUALLY A ROUTINE MATTER.

AND I THINK THAT FED MANDATE THAT YOU TALKED ABOUT THAT WAS SET IN THE 1970s IS SOMETHING THAT COULD BE PERIODICALLY REVIEWED.

SO, AS TO DISCUSS THE QUESTION OF WHETHER WE'RE FOR INSTANCE MEASURING UNEMPLOYMENT RIGHTS, WHETHER WE'RE CAPTURING THE RIGHT THINGS, AND WE KNOW THAT JEROME POWELL, FOR INSTANCE, HIS --HIS CHAIRMANSHIP, AND THE BOARD HAS BEEN QUITE IMAGINATIVE IN DOING THIS, BUT THEY'VE BEEN DOING IT ESSENTIALLY ON THEIR OWN SAY-SO, RIGHT?

SO, THEY'VE BEEN LOOKING INCREASINGLY AT RACIAL INEQUALITY IN THE AMERICAN LABOR MARKET, AS A HIGHLY SENSITIVE MARKER.

THAT'S GREAT, BUT IT DOESN'T NECESSARILY HAVE ANY POLITICAL BACKING, AND THAT, I THINK, IS A WEAKNESS.

YOU COULD SAY --YOU COULD SAY, WE JUST CAN'T TRUST AMERICAN DEMOCRACY RIGHT NOW, ALLOWING CONGRESS TO INTRUDE MORE.

BUT THAT'S REALLY A --A LOGIC OF DEFEATISM.

AND THAT DEFEATISM IS WHAT ANIMATED THEM IN THE '80s AND '90s TO SAY, WE SHOULDN'T TRUST POLITICIANS.

YOU CAN SEE THAT RIGHT NOW IN THE ARGUMENTS BEING MADE.

THEY ARE ALWAYS AFTER THE NEXT ELECTION.

THAT'S THE ONLY THING ON THEIR MINDS.

SO, REALLY, WE SHOULD TAKE THE IMPORTANT THINGS AWAY FROM THEM.

AND THAT'S A CON DEN SENSE, REALLY, THAT I DON'T THINK AMERICAN POLITICS HAS MERITED AND DESERVED.

THE CURRENT MOMENT IS NO DOUBT A BAD ONE, BUT A BAD MOMENT IS NOT NECESSARILY THE RIGHT PLACE TO THINK STRATEGICALLY ABOUT OUR OPTIONS GOING FORWARD.

>> WELL, YOU SEEM TO BE ARGUING, THEN, FOR A MORE DEMOCRATIC FED, MORE RESPONSIVE TO POLITICS.

WELL, THEN, WHY ISN'T TRUMP RIGHT?

HE GOT ELECTED, WHY CAN'T HE DO WHAT HE WANTS WITH THE FED?

>> BECAUSE OF THE WAY HE'S DOING IT, RIGHT?

AND THE CLEAR INTENTIONALITY HERE TO JUST CYNICALLY BLOW THIS UP.

THE MECHANISMS THAT ARE BEING USED, THE ASSAULT, ESSENTIALRY, ON THE PRIVATE FINANCES OF BOARD MEMBERS THAT ARE SELECTED BECAUSE THEY'RE VULNERABLE.

THIS ISN'T AND ORDERLY, SERIOUS POLITICS OF MONEY.

THIS IS THE SAME OLD SAME OLD MAGA NO HOLDS BARRED ASSAULT.

PRECISELY, I THINK, SO IS THE CHANNEL, THIS IS ACTUALLY VERY VALUABLE IN SERIOUS CONVERSATION, INTO APPROPRIATE PATHS.

THERE SHOULD BE MECHANISMS FOR DOING THIS IN A MORE ORDERLY FASHION.

>> SUPPOSE THERE WERE A DEMOCRATIC PUSH BY THE PEOPLE, THROUGH TRUMP, TO SAY, HEY, LOWER INTEREST RATES.

IS THAT SOMETHING THE FED SHOULD RESIST OR SHOULD IT BOW TO THE WILL OF THE PEOPLE?

>> I MEAN, I DON'T SEE THERE'S ANY PROBLEM OF A POLITICS OF LOW INTEREST RATES BEING PUSHED.

ONE OF THE AFFECTS OF THE SORT OF STRUCTURAL CHANGE THAT I AM INVITING THAT WE THINK ABOUT, INVITING US TO THINK ABOUT, IS THAT IT WOULD FORCE POLITICAL PARTIES TO ACTUALLY OFFER AGENDAS ON THESE KIND OF ISSUES.

THE POINT IS NOT DO I APPROVE OF TRUMP'S PARTICULAR POLITICS OR NOT.

THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS THAT, YOU KNOW, REFLEX AGAINST TRUMP'S TOXIC POLL SICKS, WE RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY OF A MORE SERIOUS ARGUMENT ABOUT THIS ISSUE.

AND I DON'T DISAGREE WITH YOU, YES, A POLITICS OF MONEY AND INTEREST RATES IS NATIVE TO AMERICAN DEMOCRACY.

IT GOES ALL THE WAY BACK TO THE 19 th CENTURY.

READ WILLIAM JENNINGS BRYAN'S SPEECH.

THE RANGE OF SOPHISTICATED ARGUMENTS HE OFFERS IS EXTRAORDINARY BY MODERN STANDARDS.

WE'VE LOST ALL OF THAT.

AND I DON'T SEE HOW ENTRENCHING EXCLUSIVITY ON THIS ISSUE IS GOING TO MAKE THINGS ANY BETTER.

I THINK IN PRINCIPLE, WHAT IT PROBABLY DOES, AS IN SO MANY OTHER AREAS, IS TO BREED A KIND OF IRRATIONAL POPULISM IN THE --IN THE SWAMP THAT EMERGES BEYOND THE BOUNDS OF THE, YOU KNOW, RESPECTABLE DISCOURSE IN THE FED.

>> ALL OF THIS IS HAPPENING, THE FED, PERHAPS UNDERMINING ITS INDEPENDENCE, AND YET, THE BOND MARKET DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE DONE MUCH.

WHY IS THAT?

>> WELL, I MEAN, IT'S TWO-SIDED.

IT HASN'T.

THERE'S BEEN NO PANIC.

I THINK THAT'S VERY IMPORTANT.

AND WE SHOULD GIVE CREDIT TO THE TREASURY PEOPLE.

BESSENT MAY APPEAR LIKE A TOTAL SYCOPHANT, BUT HE LOOKS LIKE HE KNOWS HIS BUSINESS.

THAT'S IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE IT'S A LIFE SUPPORT TYPE SYSTEM.

IT'S A THING WITH TRILLIONS OF DOLLARS GOING IN EVERY DAY, AND YOU JUST HAVE TO KEEP THE MONITORS IN THE EMERGENCY ROOM TICKING OVER, AND THEY'RE DOING A GOOD JOB AT THAT.

IF YOU LOOK AT INTEREST RATES, OVER THE LONG RUN, IT'S A SLIGHTLY DIFFERENT STORY, BECAUSE GERMANY WITH A LOW DEBT ENVIRONMENT AND VERY INDEPENDENT BANK BORROWS AT MUCH LOWER INTEREST RATES THAN THE UNITED STATES DOES NOW, SO, YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE YIELDS NOW.

EVEN FRANCE, WHICH SOME OF THE LISTENERS MAY HAVE SEEN, WAS A CRISIS CASE A COUPLE OF WEEKS AGO, BORROWS AT LOWER INTEREST RATES THAN THE UNITED STATES.

SO, THE UNITED STATES IS MOVING INTO THE ZONE OF A COUNTRY WITH A HEAVY DEBT BURDEN, WITH SOME QUESTIONS ABOUT ITS POLITICAL MANAGEMENT OF ITS MONETARY POLICY, AND THE CRUCIAL THING TO SAY IS, IT'S NOT A DISASTER.

THE SKY DOESN'T FALL.

DOES IT SHIFT OVER TIME, THE PARAMETERS OF ECONOMIC POLICY MAKING?

SURE IT DOES, BECAUSE IT MAKES MORE DEBT MORE EXPENSIVE.

AND THAT WILL CAUSE SOMEBODY LIKE TRUMP TO SAY, WELL, IF ONLY WE COULD HAVE LOWER INTEREST RATES.

SO, YOU GET CAUGHT IN THIS QUESTIONING, THEN, OF HOW ARTIFICIAL OR HOW NATURAL THOSE INTEREST RATES ARE, BUT IT DOESN'T PRODUCE AN IMMEDIATE DISASTER.

YOU HAVE OTHER PRIORITIES, LIKE THE 2008 FINANCIAL CRISIS OR THE COVID SHOCK, AND THEN YOU DO BIG POLICY.

AND THE U. S. DID.

AND BOTH OF THOSE WERE MAJOR AND HIGHLY SUCCESSFUL POLICY INTERVENTIONS.

THE QUESTION ABOUT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION IS, WHAT ARE THEY DOING IT FOR?

YOU KNOW, ALL OF THIS, AND WHAT IS THEIR POSITIVE PROJECT?

IT SEEMS BASICALLY BE TO GIVE HUGE, YOU KNOW, TAX GIVEAWAYS TO BILLIONAIRES.

THAT'S NOT A GOOD USE OF THE KIND OF POLITICAL FREE SPACE THAT YOU COULD HAVE.

BUT IF YOU WANTED TO DO A GREEN NEW DEAL, IF YOU WANTED TO DO A TRULY TRABS FORMATIVE SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC POLICY, IF YOU WANTED TO ELIMINATE CHILD POVERTY IN THE U.S., WE KNOW HOW TO DO IT.

IT'S A MATTER OF MONEY.

>> WAIT, BUT THOSE ARE POLITICAL JUDGMENTS IN THIS COUNTRY, AND THE COUNTRY'S MADE THE OTHER POLITICAL JUDGMENT FROM THE ONE IT JUST PUSHED.

>> YEAH, ABSOLUTELY.

I MEAN, THAT'S --I DON'T THINK ANYONE DISPUTES THAT.

IT'S A RIGGED SYSTEM, OF COURSE, WITH A HEAVILY CONSERVATIVE SENATE, BUT ABSOLUTELY, WITHIN THAT EXISTING STRUCTURE, IT EXPRESSES THOSE PRIORITIES ARE THERE.

WITH A LOT OF, YOU KNOW, I MEAN, THERE'S A LOT OF LEVERAGE BEING EXERCISED.

SO, I DON'T THINK IT'S NORMALIZED WHAT'S HAPPENED WITH THE BIG BEAUTIFUL BILL.

THEY HAD THE MAJORITY, THEY GOT IT THROUGH, BUT THAT'S --YEAH.

>> WELL, YOU COULD ARGUE FOR DEMOCRACY, YOU HAVE TO BE IN FAVOR OF DEMOCRACY, RIGHT?

>> I'M NOT FOR A SECOND DISPUTING THAT, RATHER THE CONTRARY.

>> OKAY.

THE CAUSE OF THIS IS THE PRESIDENT'S ATTEMPT TO PUSH LISA COOK OFF THE BOARD.

YOU'VE SERVED ON A COMMITTEE WITH HER.

TELL ME ABOUT HER.

>> SHE'S A VERY -- VERY, VERY SENSIBLE, DEDICATED ECONOMIST, POLICY MAKER, I WAS ON A COMMITTEE THAT WAS INVOLVED WITH ISSUES WITH GREEN FINANCE, ACTUALLY.

ONE OF THE, YOU KNOW, ONE OF THE ZONES OF IVE THINKING ABOUT CENTRAL BANKING THAT HAD A MOMENT OF OPPORTUNITY BETWEEN THE, YOU KNOW, THE GREEN NEW DEAL IN 2018, AND THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION RUNNING OUT OF STEAM IN 2023, AMONGST THE INFLATION PANIC.

SO, THAT'S THE CONTEXT IN WHICH I GOT TO KNOW HER AND I WAS VERY GRATIFIED TO SEE THAT SHE ULTIMATELY WENT THROUGH A GRUELING --A GRUELING, GRUELING CONFIRMATION PROCESS IN THE SENATE, WHICH SHE ALREADY SUFFERED SAND SUFFER ED SLANDER AGAINST HER PROFESSIONAL RECORD.

THIS IS THE FIRST BLACK WOMAN TO BE APPOINTED TO THE BOARD, WORTH SAYING, AND AS SUCH, JUST RARE AS RARE AS CAN POSSIBLY BE, THE NUMBER OF BLACK WOMEN THAT CHOOSE TO AND ARE AWARDED ECONOMICS Ph.

Ds IN THE UNITED STATES IS LOW.

SO, SHE'S A PRECIOUS PERSON TO HER --TO HAVE FOUND HER WAY OR TO BE PROMOTED ONTO THE FED BOARD TO ENSURE THAT DIVERSITY STANDPOINT AND THAT EXPERTISE THAT'S LASER FOCUSED ON THE ISSUES OF STRUCTURAL INEQUALITY AND JUST BRINGING MACRO ECONOMIC CHOPS TO THAT JOB AND SO IT'S SCAN LAL DOUSE TO SEE HER ATTACKED IN THIS WAY.

>> DO YOU THINK THE U. S. IS IN A MOMENT WHERE IT REALLY COULD HAVE A SENSIBLE DEBATE ABOUT MONETARY POLICY?

>> AH, I HONESTLY DON'T KNOW.

BUT I ALSO FEEL THAT WE NEED TO WEIGH THE COSTS OF NOT POSING THE QUESTION.

AND WHAT I SEE RIGHT NOW ARE AN AWFUL LOT OF FOLKS SAYING, NOW IS NOT THE MENT, DON'T BRING IT UP.

THEN YOU UNDERSTAND HOW DANGEROUS THIS IS, AND AS I SAY, THAT FORCES US INTO A DEFENSIVE POSITION, WHICH, YOU KNOW, COMING FROM NEW YORK, WITH THE PROSPECT OF MAMDANI BEING ELECTED AS MAYOR, THERE'S A PART OF AMERICAN SOCIETY THAT'S ANSWERING IN DIFFERENT TERMS.

AND I FRANKLY COULDN'T HAVE FORGIVEN MYSELF IF I HADN'T AT THIS MOMENT WRITTEN A PIECE, SOMETHING LIKE THIS, NOT BECAUSE I NECESSARILY AM THE PERSON APPOINTED TO DO IT, BUT I'VE BEEN PART OF A DECADE-LONG CONVERSATION ABOUT THE POLITICS OF MONEY.

THE QUESTION HAS BEEN OPENED UP BY PEOPLE I WOULD RECOGNIZE AS MY ENEMIES.

DO I SAY, OH, NO, WE RALLY AROUND THE STANDARD OF TECHNOCRATIC INDEPENDENCE?

THAT'S NOT A POLICY WE CAN RESPONSIBLY ADVOCATE.

AND THIS IS A BLACKMAIL THAT WE'RE GOING TO BE CONTINUOUSLY SUBJECT TO.

IT HAPPENS IN LARGE PARTS IN EUROPE, AS WELL, WHERE WE'RE ALSO SEEING THE RISE OF THE FAR RIGHT, WHICH IS THE ARGUMENT, ZIP IT, NOW IS NOT THE MOMENT.

THAT'S A DIFFICULT QUESTION.

YOU SURE YOU WANT TO BRICK THAT UP?

I FIND THAT UNSETTLING NOW, EVEN COMING FROM THE LEFT.

I DON'T --I DON'T PERSONALLY SUBSCRIBE TO THAT, AS A VIABLE POLITIC.

IT'S A SELF-MUTE LAKE, FOR FEAR OF THE STRUGGLE AND THE FIGHT OVER THESE ISSUES.

>> ADAM TOOZE, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK AND THE UNITED NATIONS.

>