Joe Manchin on Gov’t Shutdown, Trump and “Deafening” Silence of GOP

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Senator Jeanne Shaheen told us earlier why she’s not seeking re- election next year. Well, Joe Manchin is already on the other side, having retired from the Senate after about 14 years. He long walked down the center of the aisle, so to speak, as a Democrat from the red state of West Virginia, even becoming an independent at the tail end of his Senate career. Now, he’s flirting with a White House run. His new book is called “Dead Center,” and he joins Walter Isaacson to talk about polarization and the government shutdown.

 

WALTER ISAACSON: Thank you, Christiane. And Joe Manchin, welcome to the show.

 

JOE MANCHIN: Oh, Walter, thanks for having me. I appreciate being with you.

 

ISAACSON: We’re in the midst of yet again, another big government shutdown struggle going on over the past few days. Tell me, what would you do if you were still in the Senate right now?

 

MANCHIN: You know, it’s funny. I’ve been thinking about that. Just today, I was thinking about what could have been done. I can tell you this. I would’ve been gathering up whatever Republicans I could and whatever Democrats I could, and started meeting like we always did when we knew that the leadership got to an impasse. When we knew that they were playing politics or they were being pressured from the White House or from their base. We got together. Always, we could always get about eight of us, four Ds and four Rs. I don’t know if they’re still there. I hope, I would like to think there’s that mindset still there, but get together and then come up with what we thought was reasonable that we could agree on, and we could sell it to our, to our bases, basically our caucuses. And then go into the leadership with both John Thune, who is a good person, a good friend of mine, and Chuck Schumer, who I can talk to and always have and been a friend. So we have our differences. We all do. But this is not a time to shut government down. There’s never a time to admit you couldn’t do your job. And that’s what you’re doing when you shut down, Walter.

 

ISAACSON: Yeah. You talk about these gangs of eight or gangs of 10 or so where you have four or five from each side. Right? And do it in the middle. Used to do that a whole lot. How come that’s not possible now? Why is it that the Senate, which is supposed to do such things, you can’t even find 10, 12 people to say, we will be the center and we will hold it together.

 

MANCHIN: I like to think they’re still there. They’re still my friends, and I know them very well, and I talk to as many as I can. But the push from the White House and the dominance that Donald Trump has over the party and over the caucus is nothing like that’s ever been known or seen before. He makes no, he doesn’t camouflage anything that when he is upset, when he’s against you, he wants you out, he’ll be fighting against you, this and that. And I’ve just said, whoever the president – I’ll never forget, Bob, Robert, Robert C. Byrd, the former senator from West Virginia who passed away, and I replaced he always told me, Joe, he says, make make it very clear to you, I have never worked for a president, nor will I ever work for a president. I worked to uphold my oath to the Constitution and to the people from our great state of West Virginia. And that’s it. But do it with a tenure in your eye and do it respectfully. And I always adhered to that. 

 

So I’m saying that our Republican friends and leadership have to say, Mr. President, I’m sorry. It doesn’t work that way. Do you remember when he and Mitch McConnell fell out pretty bad in his first term? It was over trying to – Hey, I got 50, you got 54 Republicans give me what I need. And they said, Mr. President, doesn’t work that way. Tried to explain it. He got very upset about that. But I think hopefully he understands now the filibuster protects both sides when they’re in the minority. And what goes around comes around, Walter, this’ll happen again. It’ll change.

 

ISAACSON: Explain to me then why the Republicans, all your colleagues and friends from back in the days when you were in the Senate, you know them all. What is Trump doing to them? I mean, what, why has Trump turned it into a pure authority of the President and these people, you can’t even find five or six of them to stand up.

 

MANCHIN: Well, you remember how we used to say it’s guilt by association. They’d see you talking to someone and say, oh, you’re colluding with Walter now you must be on Walter’s side. Okay. And I said, now it’s guilt by conversation. We can’t even have a conversation, let alone get together and have a meal or talk over –

 

ISAACSON: Wait, is that because of Trump?

 

MANCHIN: I think that it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s put it much more on the, on the front, front burner, because he makes no bones. He’s going after retribution to anybody who’s opposed him in the past. He’s using the judicial system, which I would say, Mr. President, trust me, this will bite you. Whatever you think you’re doing today to satisfy your own desires, it’ll come back and bite you worse than what you’ve ever can anticipate. Please don’t do it. And I’m asking my Republican friends, you have a constitutional right. Do not abdicate your responsibilities, that you take the separation of the three equal powers, executive, legislative, and judicial. Work autonomously, but work under the respects saying, Donald Trump is our president, he’s my president and he’s your president. We want him to succeed. To succeed you have to be able to speak truth to power respectfully. If you can’t do that, then you’re not helping your president. 

 

ISAACSON: You just used the word retribution, which really does seem to sum up what’s happening now with Donald Trump using the judiciary, as you said, Congress and everything to have retribution against anybody who opposes him. Why is that – I mean, how is that being allowed to happen? And what could that do to our system if it becomes a system of retribution? 

 

MANCHIN: Well, again, my friends in the Republican majority in the Senate right now, and also in the House – silence is deafening. Silence is truly deafening, Walter. And they’re not saying a word and speaking up. Let me give you a little bit. What goes around comes around. 2013, Harry Reid was being pressured by the Obama administration. We’ve got to get our people confirmed. So you’re gonna have to do the nuclear option. That means bypass the filibuster. They should have been able to sit down and work through the differences this way. Will and pleasure when, when a president is elected, that president ought to have the ability to put his staff together as quickly as possible, that he can do the job that people elected him to do. Now with that being said that should only be a 51 vote threshold. No cloture vote, no 60 vote threshold, just 51. And say, listen, that’s because their will and pleasure. The president wants them in their, his administration. And when he leaves, they leave. They’re not held over for someone of their other administration that might have a complete different philosophy or ideology. That’s what they should have worked out. But they didn’t. So Harry pulls the trigger on the nuclear option and also on the circuit and district judges. Guess what happened? Within a couple years Mitch McConnell, Republicans are in the majority, they pull the plug nuclear option on Supreme Court Justice.

 

ISAACSON: And you’re talking about getting rid of the filibuster in that case?

 

MANCHIN: Getting rid of the filibuster. So what goes around comes around. If the president thinks retribution is a way you can basically hold your staff and show how tough you are and go after the people that you think went after you unfairly without setting an example of justice. And the rule of law that goes around, it’s gonna come around. And I’ll guarantee you, the Democrats will be justified in using it. This is what’s wrong. There’s not enough character there to stand up and say, just because you did it to me, I’m not doing it to you. I’m gonna show you how we lead. I’m gonna show you how you have empathy and sympathy. But those people will pay the price in the public polling. 

 

ISAACSON: You’ve mentioned twice in this conversation. You mentioned it, right, a whole lot in your book, “Dead Center,” a very strong narrative book about the filibuster and why it must be protected. Something many of your democratic colleagues don’t believe in as well. Explain why you would protect the filibuster, and you did so during the Biden years. 

 

MANCHIN: The filibuster is the only tool in politics, not just in America, but any place in the world that I’ve ever known, the filibuster is the only thing that gives, that gives input to the minority. Most governments, most, most legislators, whoever’s in the majority has total, absolute power. That’s the way it works in Congress. You get 218, you don’t have to even consider this, the minority side, but in the Senate, you always have to consider the minority to have input. That’s why we’ve had the stability that we’ve had in our laws and our financial system, everything that we put in, it’s hard when they call it the most deliberate body in the world, Walter, you know, better than anybody. It is hard to pass legislation. It’s even harder to repeal it or get rid of it.

 

ISAACSON: Well, okay, wait, wait, hard to pass legislation. Let me take an example from your career, which is after Sandy Hook. You called it one of the darkest days in American history. And you and a Republican senator, Pat Toomey, had a bill that would’ve addressed gun violence in sort of a balanced way. And yet because of the filibuster, even it couldn’t get through. Isn’t that a problem? I mean, aren’t we having more dark days because of the filibuster?

 

MANCHIN: Here’s what we should have done. We should have brought that bill up two or three times working and let the public do its work. It was simply a a registration basically. You had to have a background check in order to get a gun. Anybody that grew up in a gun culture like me and you and everyone else that knew had people, had guns around us, you learn you don’t, you know how to carry a gun, when to have it loaded. You never loan a gun to an irresponsible member of your family, and you never sell a gun to someone you don’t know. That’s just a gun etiquette that we talk – we call it gun sense. And that’s all we try to do. I didn’t know anybody didn’t have a background check when they bought a gun or if their dad bought a gun for ’em. That’s just the way it was done. That’s all we asked for. Let’s least know that what people that are going to gun shows and buying two sacks of guns, what’s the purpose? And did we do a background check to see if this was a credible person or a responsible person? None of that. That’s all we asked. And couldn’t even get that done because of the toxic political atmosphere. But –

 

ISAACSON: But also because of the filibuster.

 

MANCHIN: 80% of the people believed it. And here’s the thing thing, that’s why it’s deliberate. We could have run it the first time and gone back and said, listen, please contact those – we lost three or four Democrats that didn’t vote for ’cause They thought it would hurt ’em in their reelection. They lost anyway. These were dear friends of mine, and I told ’em, it’s not gonna make a difference. The problem is, Walter, when I did what I did with the Manchin-Toomey bill, with the background check, my entire state thought, oh, Joe turned against us. He don’t want us to have our Second Amendment rights. I took time to go back home and go to every gun store in, in West Virginia and explain, this is a fairness. This is what we learn when we’re young. This is what you all teach. All we’re asking for is that when you go to a gun show, there shouldn’t be someone that has a table next to you that paid $250 to sell whatever they want to, and not required a background check. But you as a licensed dealer had to have it if you’re at that gun show, that’s unfair competition. But you have to go out and explain what you’ve done. Nobody, I guess, didn’t wanna work that hard. But it, you know, it didn’t tank me. I was able to get reelected in 2018 after doing it. And you just gotta work. Can’t give up.

 

ISAACSON: You became an independent in 2024, having been a Democratic governor, democratic senator from your state and you became an independent. And you explained it in the book “Dead Center” because the you felt that neither party represented the Common Sense Center. I’m gonna read you a quote from that book, which is, “I am thoroughly convinced that the majority of people in our country share my commonsense politics, which is not the least bit hard to sum up: Put people first, country before party. Be fiscally responsible and socially compassionate. That’s it.” Why have there not been more people in public office citizens who say, okay, I’m going to go this independent route. Why have we become more polarized instead of more independent?

 

MANCHIN: Walter. The majority of people participating in the political process today are registered no party affiliation like me, independent.

 

ISAACSON: Well then why are all the government officials, Congressman Senators polarizing rather than playing to that large group of Americans who are independent?

 

MANCHIN: Because the duopoly, duopoly of the business acumen of the Democrat, Republican corporations have shut this thing down to where no one else can participate. They make it almost impossible to get through a primary. They can target primaries. They’re not opening up primaries. They’re not, they’re not embracing rank choice voting or an open primary or a 51% majority before you can take office. They’re not, there’s very few states, only two that I know of that do all of that. They don’t want that to happen. ’cause they can control the flow. 

 

If you can control, and I’ll use a perfect example, the 2024 election. Think about that. Walter just not that long ago, 2024 election, there was what about $11 billion spent. But with that being said, seven, only thing we heard about was seven battleground, battleground states. 43 states were predetermined, only seven. That’s where the middle, they were looking for that middle. But you know what, you elect someone from the middle, they go to Washington, pick a side left or right. There’s no center, maybe center left, center right. There’s no moderate middle. There’s no structure for that because the system doesn’t allow, that’s what has to be broken down. 

 

ISAACSON: You’ve said the reason that we can’t come together in the center is money and politics and social media. What else do you think is divided? 

 

MANCHIN: Walter, I can tell you this. If we’d have been on, if I could have put a team together and worked in this 2024 election and got on 50 ballots, we could have contended, we could have basically made a position where the middle and the people could have voted for the middle and not have –

 

ISAACSON: Well you thought about that. Why did you do it?

 

MANCHIN: They couldn’t get on six 50 ballots the way that it’s almost impossible. They had to I think no labels of friends of ours and tried everything humanly possible, got on 16 ballots and that took ’em over a year. And I think 30 or $40 million. It’s almost impossible to do, but it can be done and should be done

 

ISAACSON: If you had run in 2024, because I know you thought about it. You had a lot of lunches and dinners about it. Would you have run with a Republican running mate?

 

MANCHIN: Absolutely. Former, someone who’s a former Republican that has that same philosophy that I had, I would’ve ran as their vice president. Didn’t make any difference. I wasn’t there. I said, listen, let’s go in there and heal this country. Let’s start making, make sure that they know we’re the United States. And you can only do that by uniting the two former parties that have gone completely to their, to their extremes. That’s not who we are. And there’s a lot of Republicans, good Republicans, and former good Democrats. I couldn’t, I couldn’t remain a Democrat any longer. And I couldn’t join a Republican party. And I told people, they said, why don’t you just be a Republican? I said, they won’t like me anymore than Democrats. I said, Walter, I’ve never met a Republican that was always wrong. And I never met a Democrat’s always right. They’re both my friends. 

 

And I never campaigned against the Republicans running for reelection. That’s why I did so much in the middle. That’s why I did center, just having some, some basic decency about you that I’m not going to come out and campaign against you on the weekend then come back Monday when we’re in the Senate together, you be a D and I be an R, or vice versa. And I said, Walter, will you work with me on this? He says, hell no, Joe. You just went out and tried to defeat me. You’ve given $10,000 to my opponent outta your pack trying to defeat me. Why do you think I wanna work with you? That’s the atmosphere we have in Washington that has to stop.

 

ISAACSON: Well, if you wanna stop it, ’cause in Washington, you have that atmosphere. Why isn’t Americans together, which you, you know, you’re helping to, push – why doesn’t it run for state legislatures and other places, get this from the ground up?

 

MANCHIN: Well, we’re trying to do that. We’re trying to accumulate the resources that we can protect people that truly put their country or their state or the office before themselves. Commit themselves to basic, I think of saying term limits. I believe that if you put term limits on a national ballot, it passed by 80%. You know, no senator should be there longer. In 12 years, two terms, house being six, two year terms, 12 years. President should be one six year term. The president chief of the, you know, the commander in chief should not spend one day thinking about a reelection, do your job every day. And the Supreme Court 18 years. I think that would pass. 

 

ISAACSON: Wait, wait. All these things are, I know constitutional amendments. How are we gonna fix it? Now as we go into our 250th birthday and become more polarized, how could you possibly start a centrist movement that’s gonna work? 

 

MANCHIN: Well, let’s see what type of centrist are work, running on whatever ticket they’re running on, let’s say on a Democrat ticket, let’s say in the 2026 midterms. The people say, enough’s enough. We’re just gonna flip it. We’re not crazy about where the Democrats have gone. And we’re upset that the Republicans have so much power. We’re gonna try to neutralize that a little bit. That’s gonna give you a telltale sign. That’s why they’re so concerned about redistricting right now and going back and playing games with that. I hope California doesn’t join into Texas and some of the other ones are doing. And I, I would like to see it backfire. When you think you can stack the deck and get what you want, you’ll get caught and it’ll come back and backfire on you. So that’s, that’s yet to be seen. 

 

ISAACSON: Are you gonna are you gonna run for president in 2028 with a –

 

MANCHIN: I’m gonna do –

 

ISAACSON: Republican on the ticket?

 

MANCHIN: I’m gonna do whatever I can to help my country. I truly am. And there’s a lot of good people I’m trying to recruit. I’m having a harder time recruiting people to just participate than ever before. Now, with all this violence, people are more scared of that as they are basically saying nasty things about ’em and putting things about your past and your family and on and on. I can live with all that, but people now are truly concerned about their life. And that’s wrong. We should not accept violence any way. And it has to be put out. It has to stop.

 

ISAACSON: Joe Manchin, thank you so much for joining us. 

 

MANCHIN: Appreciate it, Walter. It’s always great being with you. Thank you.