October 23, 2025

♪ >>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

A HISTORIC MEETING AT THE VATICAN BETWEEN POPE LEO AND KING CHARLES.

THE FIRST BRITISH MONARCH TO PRAY WITH THE POPE IN 500 YEARS.

I SPEAK TO RELIGIOUS SCHOLAR CHRISTOPHER LAMB ON THE SYMBOLISM AND THE SCANDALING SHADOWING THE MONARCHY.

>>> ANNIE LENNOX JOINS ME TO LOOK BACK ANOTHER HER CAREER AND MEMOIR.

>>> A DISTURBING LOOK INSIDE ISRAEL'S PRISONS.

A DIRECTOR FOR DAWN, DEMOCRACY FOR THE ARAB WORLD NOW SPEAKS TO MICHELLE MARTIN ABOUT ALLEGATIONS OF TORTURE AND ABUSE AGAINST PALESTINIAN DETAINEES.

♪ ♪ >> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & CO."

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B.POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUSS.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

MONIQUE SCHOEN, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON AND WE BEGIN CAN A HISTORIC VISIT TO THE VATICAN WHERE BRITAIN'S KING CHARLES AND QUEEN CAMILLA MET WITH POPE LEO.

IT IS THE FIRST TIME IN 500 YEARS A BRITISH MONARCH HAS PRAYED WITH THE POPE.

THE HISTORY OF DIVISION GOES BACK TO KING HENRY VIII WHO INFAMOUSLY BROKE WITH ROME IN HIS DESPERATION TO DIVORCE HIS FIRST QUEEN, KATHERINE OF ND MARRY ANNE BOLEYN.

THIS IS AFTER CENTURIES OF CONFLICT BETWEEN PROTESTANT AND CATHOLIC.

>> IS NOW AND SHALL BE.

AMEN.

>> A SYMBOLIC ENCOUNTER BETWEEN THE HEADS OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND AND THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

CHRISTOPHER LAMB IS THE AUTHOR OF "THE OUTSIDER: POPE FRANCIS AND THE BATTLE TO REFORM THE CHURCH."

HE'S JOINING ME NOW FROM ROME.

CHRISTOPHER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, AND WERE YOU ALSO GIVEN YOU'RE A SCHOLAR OF ALL THIS, DID IT SEND CHILLS UP YOUR SPINE?

DID YOU SORT OF INTERNALIZE THE HISTORY OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING?

>> WELL, CHRISTIANE, YES, IT WAS REALLY EXTRAORDINARY TO WITNESS THIS, AND I REALLY FELT LIKE I WAS SEEING, YOU KNOW, AN HISTORICAL AND EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT, AND, YOU KNOW, IT IS AN AMAZING TURNAROUND AS YOU SAID.

500 YEARS AGO, KING HENRY VIII BROKE WITH ROME AND ESTABLISHED HIMSELF AS LEADER OF THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND, AND IN THE CENTURIES AFTERWARDS, THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE PAPACY AND THE MONARCHY WAS ONE OF CONFLICT, TENSION, AND SUSPICION.

THE VATICAN, THE HOLY SEE, AND THE BRITISH STATE ONLY RE-ESTABLISHED RELATIONS IN 1982, AND SO TO SEE THIS MOMENT WHERE A KING AND A POPE, AN ENGLISH KING AND A POPE WERE PRAYING TOGETHER IN THE SISTINE CHAPEL BETWEEN THE FRESCOS OF MICHAELANGELO WITH THE VATICAN CHOIRS AND ROYAL CHOIRS SINGING TOGETHER, IT REALLY WAS AN EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT, AND I THINK ALSO PARTLY THIS IS DOWN TO KING CHARLES' OWN PERSONAL FAITH.

HE SEEMS TO HAVE A VERY STRONG FAITH, AND HE IS WILLING TO ENGAGE WITH THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN A WAY THAT NO MONARCH DOLLARS NO BRITISH MONARCH THAT HAS DONE IN CENTURIES.

SO IT REALLY DID FEEL LIKE AN EXTRAORDINARY MOMENT TO WITNESS TODAY.

>> AND CHRISTOPHER, BUCKINGHAM PALACE WAIVED ITS ESSENTIAL BAN ON SEEING ANY MONARCH, ANY BRITISH MONARCH PRAY IN PUBLIC.

THEY ALLOWED THESE PICTURES.

SO IT WAS A CLEAR MESSAGE, AND AS YOU SAID, THE KING IS NOT ONLY KNOWN FOR HIS PERSONAL FAITH, BUT ALSO AS SORT OF AN ACT VIS ACTIVIST IF YOU LIKE AS WELL.

ON THE BIGGER PICTURE OF INTERFAITH AT A TIME LIKE TODAY, NOT JUST BETWEEN CATHOLIC AND PROTESTANT, BUT ON A BIGGER PICTURE, YOU KNOW, JEWS, MUSLIMS, CHRISTIANS, IN THIS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT AND TURBULENT WORLD RIGHT NOW.

>> YES.

ABSOLUTELY.

AND I THINK THIS VISIT SENT A MESSAGE THAT DIVISIONS AND DISAGREEMENTS OF THE PAST CAN BE OVERCOME.

THEY DON'T HAVE THE DEFINE THE FUTURE.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT IT WAS STAYING TODAY.

I MEAN, THE, YOU KNOW, THE INTRACHURCH BATTLES HAVE BEEN VIOLENCE.

THEY'VE LED TO DEATH, TO MARTYRS, BUT TODAY WAS A SIGN, A SYMBOL THAT THOSE DIVISIONS HOWEVER DEEP BE FELT, DON'T HAVE TO BE -- DON'T HAVE TO HAVE THE LAST WORD, AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT WAS BEING COMMUNICATED VERY STRONGLY TODAY BY POPE LEO AND KING CHARLES.

POPE LEO IS CONCERNED ABOUT POLARIZATION AND DIVISION, AND HIS MEETING WITH THE KING, I THINK, SHOWS THAT DIALOGUE IS POSSIBLE, THAT IT'S IMPORTANT TO LISTEN.

IT'S IMPORTANT TO HAVE AN ABILITY TO TALK TO PEOPLE WHO YOU STILL DO HAVE DISAGREEMENTS WITH.

I MEAN, LET'S BE CLEAR.

THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE CHURCH OF ENGLAND AND THE WIDER ANGLICAN COMMUNION DO HAVE PROFOUND DIFFERENCES PARTICULARLY WHEN IT COMES TO THE INATION OF WOMEN, FOR EXAMPLE.

CATHOLICISM BARS THAT, BUT THE ANGLICAN CHURCH DOES NOT.

DESPITE THE DEEP DISAGREEMENTS, THE VISIT TODAY SHOWS THAT THOSE DON'T HAVE TO DEFINE THE RELATIONSHIP, AND I THINK THAT'S A VERY POWERFUL MESSAGE TO COMMUNICATE TODAY.

>> AND YOU MENTIONED, YOU KNOW, ORDAINING WOMEN WHEREAS WE KNOW SARAH MULLALLY HAS BEEN APPOINTED THE HEAD OF THE ANGLICAN CHURCH JUST AFTER THE KING, AND THAT'S A FIRST.

THE FIRST WOMAN TO LEAD THE ANGLICAN CHURCH, AND AS YOU SAY, CLEARLY THE CATHOLICS DON'T ALLOW THAT AT THE MOMENT, BUT EVEN THOUGH POPE LEO HOSTED THE KING AND QUEEN, DID THIS INVITATION COME FROM POPE LEO?

DID IT COME FROM BUCKINGHAM PALACE?

WAS IT SOMETHING THAT POPE FRANCIS HAD SET IN MOTION?

DO YOU KNOW WHAT LED TO IT AND WHY IT'S TAKEN THIS LONG, 500 YEARS, FOR THIS TO HAPPEN?

>> WELL, THIS VISIT HAD BEEN PLANNED UNDER POPE FRANCIS.

KING CHARLES AND QUEEN CAMILLA WERE TO UNDERTAKE A STATE VISIT TO THE VATICAN IN APRIL, BUT BECAUSE POPE FRANCIS GOT UNWELL AND HE WAS HOSPITALIZED, IT HAD TO BE POSTPONED.

THE KING, THOUGH, DID MANAGE TO BRIEFLY GREET POPE FRANCIS EARLIER THIS YEAR WHEN HE WAS UNDERTAKING HIS STATE VISIT TO ITALY.

SO POPE LEO IS THE SECOND POPE THAT KING CHARLES HAS MET THIS YEAR.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT -- THAT COMES FROM THE FRANCIS PONTIFICATE, BUT HAS BEEN TAKEN UP BY LEO.

I MEAN, MORE BROADLY IN THE LAST SAY 60 YEARS, THE CATHOLIC CHURCH AND THE ANGLICAN COMMUNION HAVE BEEN UNDERTAKING A DIALOGUE.

THEY HAVE BEEN SEEKING TO WORK MORE CLOSELY TOGETHER.

THEY HAVE BEEN TRYING TO RESOLVE THE THE TRINAL AND OTHER DIFFERENCES.

IT BEGAN WHEN THE ARCHBISHOP OF CANTERBURY THEN MET WITH POPE PAUL VI.

THAT THEN STARTED A DIALOGUE WHICH IN MANY WAYS HAS BEEN THE SORT OF CONTEXT TO WHAT WE SAW TODAY, WHICH ALSO INCLUDED KING CHARLES GOING TO THE BASILICA OF ST.

PAUL'S OUTSIDE THE WALLS.

A VERY IMPORTANT ROMAN BASILICA, WHERE HE SAT ON A CHAIR THAT HAD ENGRAVED ON IT, THAT THEY MAY BE ONE WHICH IS THE MOTTO REALLY OF THE MOVEMENT TO TRY AND BRING THE CHRISTIAN CHURCHES CLOSER TOGETHER.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING, AND ALL THOSE LITTLE DETAILS SPEAK -- SPEAK REAL VOLUMES.

I SAID WHEN WE STARTED THAT YOU HAD WRITTEN A BOOK ABOUT POPE FRANCIS AND I UNDERSTAND THAT YOU'RE GOING TO PUBLISH NEXT YEAR YOUR BOOK ON POPE LEO.

SO IN THE TIME THAT HE'S BEEN PONTIFF, AND LET'S NOT FORGET HE'S AMERICAN, BROUGHT UP IN SOUTH AMERICA, IS HIS AGENDA AND WHERE HE'S HEADED AND WHERE THE CHURCH IS HEADED BECOMING CLEARER?

>> YES, I THINK IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS THE LEO PAPACY HAS REALLY TAKEN OFF, AND I THINK IT IS CLEAR THAT POPE LEO WANTS TO CONTINUE WITH THE REFORMS AND THE DIRECTION THAT POPE FRANCIS WANTED TO TAKE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH, WHETHER IT COMES DOWN TO THINGS LIKE PROTECTING THE ENVIRONMENT, CALLING OUT FOR BETTER TREATMENT OF IMMIGRANTS, BUT ALSO RMS INSIDE THE CATHOLIC CHURCH WHICH POPE FRANCIS WAS KEEN TO DEVELOP AND KEEN TO MOVE FORWARD ON.

OF COURSE, LEO IS THE FIRST AMERICAN POPE IN HISTORY.

IT'S EXTRAORDINARY THAT THE CARDINALS CHOSE AN AMERICAN POPE.

IT WAS PREVIOUSLY THOUGHT IMPOSSIBLE THAT THAT WOULD HAPPEN, BUT LEO'S ALSO SOMEONE WHO SPENT MANY YEARS IN LATIN AMERICA.

SO HE FOLLOWS ON FROM THE FIRST LATIN AMERICAN POPE, AND HIS VISION OF THE CHURCH IS REALLY SHAPED BY HIS TIME IN PERU, AND SO HE IS SOMEONE WHO IS VERY MUCH IN LINE WITH THE FRANCIS VISION OF THE CHURCH.

OF COURSE, HE DOES HAVE A QUITE DIFFERENT PERSONALITY TO FRANCIS.

POPE FRANCIS WAS KIND OF, YOU KNOW, VERY CHARISMATIC POPE, A REAL DISRUPTER YOU COULD SAY TO THE CLERICAL AND VATICAN ESTABLISHMENT.

LEO IS MORE LOW-KEY INDIVIDUAL.

HE'S A BIT MORE PROCESS-FOCUSED.

HE'S PERHAPS A LITTLE MORE RESERVED, BUT HE IS DETERMINED, AND HE CLEARLY WANTS TO BUILD ON THE VISION OF THE CHURCH THAT POPE FRANCIS ARTICULATED AND THE REFORMS THAT HE BEGAN.

>>M-HMM.

YOU KNOW, I'M STILL THINKING ALSO ABOUT WHAT YOU SAID.

BOTH POPE FRANCIS AND LEO SHOWED A WILLINGNESS TO CRITICIZE AMERICA AND, YOU KNOW, CERTAINLY THIS PRESIDENT ON ISSUES, ISSUES THAT THEY BELIEVED, YOU KNOW, DEFIED THE CHARITY THAT THE CHURCH IS MEANT TO STAND FOR, WHETHER IMMIGRATION OR OTHER SUCH THINGS.

LEO DOESN'T DO IT IN A DIRECT WAY.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID RECENTLY, ADDRESSED TO, YOU KNOW, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, MAYBE TO THE PRESIDENT.

HERE'S WHAT HE SAID.

>> SOMEONE WHO SAYS THAT I'M AGAINST ABORTION, BUT I'M IN AGREEMENT WITH THE INHUMAN TREATMENT OF IMMIGRANTS IN THE UNITED STATES, I DON'T KNOW IF THAT'S PRO-LIFE.

>> SO IN GENERAL, ADDRESSING WHAT HE, I GUESS, SEES AS HYPOCRISY WHEN IT COMES TO THIS ISSUE.

>> WELL, I THOUGHT THOSE REMARKS FROM LEO WERE VERY SIGNIFICANT BECAUSE WHAT HE WAS DOING THERE WAS HE WAS EXPLAINING THAT, TO BE PRO-LIFE DOES NOT SIMPLY MEAN BEING ANTI-ABORTION.

NOW, THERE ARE THOSE IN THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN THE UNITED STATES WHO WANT POLITICAL OPPOSITION TO ABORTION TO BE THE FRONT AND CENTER PRIORITY FOR THE CHURCH, AND INDEED THE BISHOPS IN THE UNITED STATES HAVE WANTED THAT, BUT WHAT LEO WAS SAYING IN THOSE REMARKS IS THAT THE PRO- -- TO BE PRO-LIFE MEANS MORE THAN JUST ING ABORTION.

IT'S A BROADER CANVAS, AND HIS REMARKS ABOUT ABORTION WERE ALSO LINKED TO THE DEATH PENALTY.

SO POPE FRANCIS DURING HIS PAPACY CHANGED CATHOLIC TEACHING TO SAY THAT THE DEATH PENALTY IS INADMISSIBLE.

THAT RECEIVED A BACKLASH FROM CERTAIN CONSERVATIVE CATHOLICS IN THE UNITED STATES, AND WHEN LEO MADE THOSE REMARKS ABOUT ABORTION AND THE DEATH PENALTY, AND IMMIGRATION, HE ALSO HAS RECEIVED A LOT OF CRITICISM FROM CONSERVATIVE CATHOLICS, BUT WHAT LEO IS DOING THERE IS HE'S SAYING THAT YOU CAN'T JUST ISOLATE ONE ISSUE WHEN IT COMES TO CATHOLIC TEACHING.

TO DEFEND LIFE MEANS TO DEFEND ALL LIFE, AND I THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE HIS APPROACH EVEN THOUGH IT MEANS HE'S LIKELY TO FACE CRITICISM FROM SOME PARTS OF THE CHURCH AND OF COURSE, POLITICAL OPPOSITION FROM SUPPORTERS OF THE PRESIDENT.

>> WELL, CHRISTOPHER LAMB, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

IT'S REALLY BEEN A VERY IMPORTANT DAY, AND I'M GLAD YOU WERE THERE TO WALK US THROUGH IT.

THANK YOU.

>>> NEXT, TO A GRAMMY-WINNING STAR WHOSE VOICE AND STYLE DEFINED A GENERATION.

ANNIE LENNOX, FROM HER GROUNDBREAKING WORK WITH THE EWE RHYTHMICS TO HER SOLO CAREER, SHE HAS LONG PUSHED MUSICAL AND CULTURAL BOUNDARIES.

♪ SWEET DREAMS ARE MADE OF THESE ♪ ♪ WHO AM I TO DISAGREE ♪ >> AND NOW SHE'S REFLECTING ON THAT REMARKABLE JOURNEY IN A NEW VISUAL MEMOIR CALLED "ANNIE LENNOX: RETROSPECTIVE, A COLLECTION OF PHOTOS, LYRICS, AND MEMORIES," AND SHE'S JOINING US LIVE FROM LOS ANGELES.

HOW ARE YOU?

>> I'M GREAT, ACTUALLY.

THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

REALLY GOOD.

>> THIS IS -- THIS IS REALLY A RESTING BOOK, IN FACT, AND I WAS JUST THINKING AS I WAS JUST READING THE INTRODUCTION, WE SAW "SWEET DREAMS," AND YOU'RE ALL IN YOUR SUIT, YOUR MAN SUIT, YOU'VE GOT THE PUNKY, CLOSE-CROPPED ORANGE HAIR, AND YOU TALK ABOUT THAT A LOT.

THAT IMAGE IN YOUR BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT THE -- THE STYLE THAT YOU JUST -- JUST TALK ABOUT THAT IMAGE BECAUSE IT WAS QUITE, YOU KNOW, CUTTING EDGE AT THE TIME.

>> WELL, I'VE ACTUALLY -- >> THERE IT IS.

>> THERE IT IS.

THERE IT IS.

THIS IS THE IMAGE ON THE BOOK.

>> THIS IS THE IMAGE, YEP.

>> AND IT MADE THE -- YEAH.

IT MADE THE FRONT COVER OF THE BOOK BECAUSE I FELT IN A WAY THERE'S SOMETHING LIKE AN ARRIVAL POINT WE HAD BEEN THROUGH SO MANY EVOLUTIONS AS YOUNG, ASPIRING MUSICIANS AND PERFORMERS AND RECORDING ARTISTS, YOU KNOW, DAVE AND I BEFORE EURHYTHMICS WERE IN A BAND CALL THE TOURISTS AND WE HAD A LITTLE BIT OF SUCCESS AND WE TRAVELED THE WORLD AND WE DID ALL THAT, AND THEN IT KIND OF CAME TO NOTHING.

SO WE HAD TO -- WE WANTED TO REINVENT YOURSELVES SO THERE'D BEEN -- I LOOK ON THOSE DAYS AS A REHEARSAL REALLY FOR WHAT WAS TO COME.

WE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS TO COME, BUT EURHYTHMICS ACTUALLY BROKE THROUGH IN A VERY BIG WAY WITH "SWEET DREAMS", AND THIS IMAGE IS ALMOST LIKE THE CUMULATION OF EVERYTHING THAT WE HAD LEARNED IN A SENSE COMING THROUGH, YOU KNOW?

>> YEAH, AND I WANTED TO GO BACK BECAUSE YOU MENTIONED DAVE.

THAT IS DAVE STEWARD WHO WAS YOUR PARTNER AND TOURIST IN EURHYTHMICS AND ALSO YOUR ROMANTIC PARTNER FOR A WHILE.

I WAS TOUCHED, YOU KNOW, I READ THE, YOU KNOW, THE RBLURBESBY TE PICTURES AND YOU SAID YOU COULDN'T IMAGINE NOT WORKING WITH HIM EVEN THOUGH IT WAS SO SAD TO BREAK UP, AND YOU DID GO ON TO HAVE THIS INCREDIBLE PROFESSIONAL RELATIONSHIP WITH SOMEBODY WHO, YOU KNOW, WAS CAUSING HEARTBREAK AS WELL.

>> WELL -- >> BOTH WAYS.

>> WELL, THERE WAS HEARTBREAK, BUT NO ONE MEANT TO CAUSE HEARTBREAK.

>> YES, I UNDERSTAND.

>> IN A SENSE.

DO YOU SEE WHAT I MEAN?

>> YES, I DO.

>> GOSH.

I THINK IT WAS LIKE THIS.

THERE WAS MYSELF AND DAVE, AND THAT'S ONE AND ONE, BUT WE MADE THREE BECAUSE EURHYTHMICS WAS BIGGER THAN US, AND WE KNEW THAT, AND SOMEHOW OUR PURPOSE WAS SO STRONG AND OUR VISION WAS SO STRONG, THAT YEAH.

WE CONTINUED AND "SWEET DREAMS" IS REALLY IN A WAY, IT'S SYMBOLIC OF THINGS LIKE THE DAY THAT THIS SONG WAS WRITTEN IN THE STUDIO, I HAD THOUGHT -- THAT WAS THE DAY I PROBABLY WAS PLANNING TO GO BACK TO SCOTLAND FOR GOOD BECAUSE I FELT LIKE WE'D HAD SO MUCH FAILURE AS PEOPLE -- IN THEIR LIVES, YOU HAVE FAILURE -- SUPPOSED FAILURE AND SUCCESS, AND WE'D HAD A SERIES OF FAILURES, AND SOME SUCCESS, AND I JUST THOUGHT THAT WAS THE END OF IT, AND THEN "SWEET DREAMS" WAS WRITTEN ON THAT DAY, AND I THINK LIFE, IT'S SO SYMBOLIC IN A WAY OF HOW LIFE CAN BE WHEN YOU THINK YOU'RE AT THE END OF DAYS, YOU KNOW?

AND SOMETHING CAN HAPPEN SIN KRO -- SINYNCHRONISTICALLY, THINGS CAN HAPPEN.

>> I STEAD OF TOSSES IT IN, YOU DID THE SONG AND IT SAILED YOU FORTH ON ANOTHER LONG, LONG WAVE OF SUCCESS.

YOU'VE NEVER WRITTEN A BOOK.

YOU'VE DONE ALL THE OTHER CULTURAL STUFF THAT A SINGER DOES, BUT YOU'VE NEVER WRITTEN A BOOK, RIGHT?

>> RIGHT.

>> SO WHY NOW, AND WHY IN THIS FORMAT, THE VISUAL MEMOIR?

>> JUST CAME TO MY AWARENESS THAT THERE WERE THOUSANDS OF IMAGES IN THE ZEITGEIST, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU PUT -- WHEN YOU TAKE A PHOTOGRAPH, LET'S SAY, AND IT'S OUT THERE ON THE WEB, YOU DON'T EVEN KNOW WHO'S LOOKING AT IT, WHEN THEY'RE LOOKING AT IT.

YOU DON'T HAVE ANY CONTROL, BUT THEY'RE THERE NEVERTHELESS.

SO THERE WERE ROUGHLY ABOUT 6,000 IMAGES THAT WERE IN THE CLOUD, AND THEY WERE ALL ACCOUNTED FOR, AND WE KIND OF JUST PULLED DOWN HUNDREDS AND PUT THEM INTO CATEGORIES, AND IT WAS LIKE A REVISITATION OF ALL THE THINGS THAT I PERSONALLY HAD BEEN THROUGH IN TERMS OF BEING CREATIVE, YOU KNOW, AND IT WAS JUST A MOMENT TO REFLECT ON THAT BECAUSE MOST OF THE TIME AS A CREATIVE PERSON, YOU'RE GOING ONTO WHAT'S NEXT, YOU KNOW?

AND I THOUGHT, THERE'S SO MUCH WORK BEHIND EVERY SINGLE IMAGE IN THIS BOOK, BUT PEOPLE DON'T KNOW, AND THEY DON'T NEED TO KNOW, BUT IT'S THERE, AND IT'S -- IT REPRESENTS IN A WAY FOR ME, DEFINITELY A NOSTALGIA, AND IT REPRESENTS CERTAIN ACCOMPLISHMENTS, AND IT REPRESENTS TIME FRAMES AND MUSIC AS THE BACKGROUND OF ONE'S LIFE, AND I JUST THINK OF IT AS A CHOCOLATE BOX THAT'S TIED UP IN A NICE , AND IT'S, LIKE, THIS IS MY LIFE, FOLKS.

>> YEAH.

>> PARTLY.

PART OF MY LIFE IS IN THIS BOOK.

YEAH.

>> IT ABSOLUTELY IS.

SO LOOK.

I'M A HUGE DAVID BOWIE FAN, AND I HAVE TO ADMIT THAT I OFTEN -- WHEN I LOOK AT SOME OF YOUR PHOTOS AND INCLUDING IN THE BOOK, SOME OF THE OUTFITS, SOME OF THE POSITIONS, SOME OF THE BOOTS YOU CHOOSE AND YOU WORE, I FIND IT VERY BOWIE, AND THEN I READ THAT YOU DID A -- YOU DID A, YOU KNOW, YOU PERFORMED WITH HIM ON STAGE, AND YOU CALLED IT NERVE-RACKING, YOU WERE NEVER SO SQUARD SCARED IN YOUR LIFE.

YOU HOPE YOU DIDN'T SCREW UP AND THIS AND THAT.

I WANT TO PLAY THIS LITTLE BIT AND I WANT YOU TO TALK ABOUT IT.

>> OKAY.

♪ >> I MEAN, REALLY THAT'S AMAZING.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU CAN SEE THE PICTURES.

YOU KNOW IT THOUGH.

YOU'RE WEARING THE BLACK ON YOUR EYES.

YOU'RE ALL WHITE-FACED AND IT'S REALLY INCREDIBLE.

DID DAVID BOWIE KNOW THE OUTFIT YOU WERE GOING TO WEAR?

>> NO, HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT I WAS GOING TO WEAR, BUT HE DID SUGGEST THAT I GET ANTONY PRICE TO MAKE ME A DRESS, AND DRESSES ARE NOT -- DRESSES ARE NOT SOMETHING THAT I VERY OFTEN WORE, SO I THOUGHT, OKAY.

IF IT'S GOING TO BE A DRESS AND I'M GOING TO BE WITH DAVID BOWIE, I WANTED TO EQUAL HIS POWER, YOU KNOW?

AND SO THIS DRESS CAME ABOUT.

IT'S, LIKE, IT'S ALMOST LIKE METAL ARMOR.

ALTHOUGH IT'S MATERIAL, IT'S FABRIC.

SILVER FABRIC ON THE TOP.

IT'S A BIT JOAN OF ARC MEETS GRACE JONES, HUGE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS POWERFUL BECAUSE WHEN I STEPPED ON THE STAGE, HE WASN'T EXPECTING IT AT ALL BECAUSE WE'D BEEN HE REHEARSING TOGETHER.

THERE'S EVEN FOOTAGE OF THAT SOMEWHERE ON THE INTERNET OF ME AND HIM ING TOGETHER, BUT IT WAS A DIFFERENT SETUP.

WHEN WE PERFORMED ON THE STAGE, IT WAS A DIFFERENT SETUP.

I AM ADMITTEDLY A HUGE DAVID BOWIE FAN.

I DON'T IMAGINE ANYONE WHO WOULDN'T BE.

HE WAS JUST A MASTER.

I WAS INSPIRED BY HIM AS SO MANY PEOPLE WERE, AND I JUST WANTED TO DO SOMETHING THAT WOULD KIND OF BE COMPLEMENTARY TO HIS POWER.

>> I'M JUST GOING TO SAY HE DID LOOK A BIT SURPRISED AS YOU WERE -- THAT CLIP, HE'S LOOKING A LITTLE SURPRISED.

>> HE STEPPED BACK.

HE WAS.

>> YEAH.

SO NOW THAT YOU'RE EXPLAINING IT, I GET IT.

I WAS, LIKE, WHY IS HE DOING THAT?

DID YOU CHOREOGRAPH THAT BIT THAT WE JUST SAW OR WAS THAT ALL PLANNED BETWEEN THE TWO OF YOU?

>> NO.

WE NEVER DISCUSSED WHAT WE WOULD DO, AND SO EVERYTHING WAS VERY SPONTANEOUS, AND I -- I JUST HAD A FEELING T I WANTED TO GET CLOSER TO HIM BECAUSE I WAS STANDING A FEW FEET APART FROM HIM, BUT I THINK, YOU KNOW, TO COME TOGETHER IN THIS CUMULATIVE MOMENT JUST SPONTANEOUSLY, AND HOPING THAT HE WOULDN'T BE TOO SHOCKED, I KIND OF PUT MY ARM AROUND HIS NECK.

THAT'S WHAT PERFORMANCE IS.

I MEAN, YOU CAN HAVE THINGS CHOREOGRAPHED FOR SURE, BUT I THINK PART OF THE EXCITEMENT ABOUT THAT IS THAT YOU ACTUALLY IN A WAY, YOU CAN'T TELL WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN.

I DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

HE DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS GOING TO HAPPEN.

HE'S, LIKE, WHAT THE HELL IS GOING ON?

>> IT WAS GOOD.

I MEAN, IT'S POWERFUL, AND AGAIN, IN THE SAME LOOK -- >> THANK YOU.

>> -- MUCH HAS BEEN MADE OF YOUR ANDROGYNOUS LOOK.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU WERE THE FIRST TO TAKE THAT LOOK ON.

CLEARLY OTHERS HAVE COPIED IT AND -- >> NO.

>> MAYBE EVEN BEFORE, BUT IT WAS VERY ANANDROGYNOUS, VERY POWERF.

THE SUITS, THE SHORT HAIR THAT I WAS JUST TALKING ABOUT.

HERE'S A CLIP FROM A VIDEO WHERE YOU LOOK SORT OF QUINTESSENTIALLY FEMININE.

IT'S "THERE MUST BE AN ANGEL," THE WONDERFUL SONG.

WE'RE GOING TO LET IT PLAY FOR A LITTLE BIT.

♪ ♪ >> SO GORGEOUS, AND SOME MIGHT SAY THAT.

YOU MOVED BETWEEN LOOKS.

HOW -- WHAT WERE YOU THINKING FOR INSTANCE WHEN YOU WENT FROM VERY SEVERE TO VERY SOFT?

>> I'M THINKINGCREATIVELY, AND I'M THINKING, WHAT -- WHO AM I AS A PERFORMER, YOU KNOW?

WITH THE "SWEET DREAMS," THIS KIND OF LOOK HERE, IT'S ABOUT TAKING SOME POWER.

I'M CERTAINLY NOT THE FIRST WOMAN WHO'S EVER WORN A SUIT.

WE HAVE SO MANY, YOU KNOW, GRETA GARBLE, AND JUST SO MANY FANTASTIC WOMEN, BUT I THINK IT WAS ABOUT EMPOWERMENT.

YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THOSE DAYS WERE IN THE LATE '70s AND EARLY '80s.

IT WAS A VERY DIFFERENT TIME, CHRISTIANE, AND THIS WAS NOT -- THIS WAS BEFORE WE'RE TALKING GENDER-FLUID.

I WAS GIVEN THE LABEL GENDER BENDER, AND IT WAS ACTUALLY PROVOCATIVE HERE IN AMERICA BECAUSE PEOPLE DID TAKE SOME UMBRAGE WITH IT, BUT HISTORICALLY, FEMALE PERFORMERS HAVE OFTEN DRAWN ON THEIR MALE POWER TO -- TO ACTUALLY HAVE THAT STRENGTH AND THAT PRESENCE ON STAGE, AND I JUST WANTED TO BREAK -- PERSONALLY I JUST WANTED TO BREAK WITH CONVENTION, AND THEN BREAK IT AGAIN AND BECOME FEMALE SO THERE'S ALWAYS THIS POSSIBILITY TO KEEP EVOLVING AND KEEP CHANGING.

THAT'S WHAT ARTISTRY IS ABOUT FROM MY PERSPECTIVE.

>> IT'S REALLY INTERESTING YOU PUT IT THAT WAY IN TERMS OF EMPOWERMENT BECAUSE YOU WRITE IN THE BOOK "EVEN AS I LOOK AT THESE PHOTOGRAPHS NOW, I SEE A PARTICULAR KIND OF COURAGE AND CONFIDENCE IT TAKES TO LOOK DIRECTLY INTO A CAMERA LENS LIKE THIS," AND AGAIN, I DON'T KNOW WHETHER WE HAVE THE PICTURE UP, BUT -- SO WERE YOU -- DID YOU HAVE TO SORT OF GATHER YOUR COURAGE OR WERE YOU NATURALLY COURAGEOUS AND NATURALLY EMPOWERED?

>> WELL, IT'S VERY INTERESTING BECAUSE I THINK AS A PERFORMER, YOU DO HAVE TO GATHER YOUR COURAGE.

I THINK EVEN YOURSELF, YOU'LL IDENTIFY WITH THIS JUST BEING IN FRONT OF A CAMERA.

IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT NECESSARILY COMES NATURALLY.

SO DO YOU HAVE TO PRACTICE BEING IN FRONT OF A CAMERA, AND THERE'S NOT MUCH CHANCE FOR PRACTICE REALLY BECAUSE YOU'RE RIGHT THERE.

I MEAN, I'M TALKING TO YOU NOW AND WE'RE, YOU KNOW, WE'RE GOING OUT LIVE BROADCAST TO MILLIONS OF PEOPLE PROBABLY, AND I THINK THE MORE YOU DO OF IT, THE MORE ACCUSTOMED YOU CAN BECOME TO IT, AND THEN YEAH.

YOU HAVE TO LEARN HOW TO LOOK AT A CAMERA, OR HOW TO DO IT.

HOW TO -- HOW TO STAND IN FRONT OF A CAMERA, HOW TO BE IN FRONT OF A CAMERA, AND THIS IS ALL ABOUT PERFORMANCE FOR ME, AND HAVING THE FREEDOM TO GO FROM ONE PERSONA TO THE NEXT.

IT'S A LITTLE BIT LIKE BEING AN ACTOR, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, IT'S MORE THAN THAT BECAUSE YOU'RE NOT PRETENDING TO BE SOMEONE ELSE.

YOU'RE BEING AN ASPECT OF YOURSELF.

>> YEAH, YOU KNOW, YOU JUST MENTIONED THE WORD "PRACTICE," ET CETERA, AND I JUST, AGAIN, YOU KNOW, READ ONE OF THE PAGES THAT YOU SAID, YOU GUYS WITH DAVE, TRIED A LOT OF STUFF, WHETHER IT WAS OUTFITS OR WHETHER IT WAS SONGS, BUT YOU WERE -- YOU KNEW WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE.

YOU KNEW THE IMAGE, YOU KNEW THE SOUND.

YOU KNEW THE VISUALS OF WHAT YOU WANTED TO BE, AND YOU WERE CONSTANTLY TOSSING STUFF OUT IF IT DIDN'T MATCH UP.

>> YES.

YES.

>> THAT'S QUITE A LOT OF WORK.

>> YES, WE WERE.

I MEAN, WITH EURHYTHMICS, IT WAS TEN SOLID YEARS OF TOURING, OF WRITING, OF MAKING VIDEOS, OF WRITING SONGS, OF DOING PHOTO SESSIONS, JUST -- IT WAS A VERY, VERY PRODUCTIVE TIME, AND IN A WAY, IT KIND OF AT THE END, IT KIND OF DOES TEND TO EAT UP YOUR LIFE.

SO I CAN SEE WHY A LOT OF YOUNG PEOPLE WHO COME INTO THE MUSIC INDUSTRY WHICH WILL EAT YOU UP BECAUSE IT'S VERY CARNIVOROUS.

IT'S A CANNIBALISTIC PLACE, AND WITH THE RIGHT BOUNDARIES, YOU CAN WIFTLY BECOME, YOU KNOW, UNTETHERED, LET'S PUT IT LIKE THAT, AND I THINK LONGEVITY IS QUITE A RARE THING IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS GAME, AND FOR ME -- >> YEP.

>> -- IT WAS A QUESTION OF, I DON'T WANT TO LET THIS STARDOM EAT ME UP.

I WANTED TO ALWAYS BE GROUNDED AND A PERSON THAT CAN GO AND --AND -- GO TO THE SHOPS AND BE NORMAL AS WELL AS DOING THE OTHER THING.

>> YEAH, YEAH.

BUY A LOAF OF BREAD, BUY A PINT OF MILK.

I HEAR YOU.

I THINK IT'S REALLY INTERESTING YOU SAID IN THE BOOK -- WELL, ACTUALLY IN AN INTERVIEW WITH "VOGUE," YOU SAID, "I'VE GOT TO FEEL THAT WHAT I'M WEARING TELLS YOU SOMETHING ABOUT MYSELF," AND THEN IN THE BOOK, WE HEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, R SORT OF MIND WORKS BACK TO FRONT.

YOU WORK BACKWARDS STARING AT THE PRESENT, THEN MOVING BACK INTO THE PAST.

TELL ME WHAT THAT MEANS AND HOW IT LOOKS, AND WHAT DOES IT MEAN FOR WRITING A SONG?

>> LOOKING BACKWARDS, I THINK -- THE FUNNY THING IS THAT TIME MARCHES ON, AND, YOU KNOW, BEFORE WE'VE EVEN NKED OUR EYES, WE'RE INTO THE FUTURE AS IT WERE, AND I'M FASCINATED BY HISTORY.

I'M FASCINATED BY THE FACT THAT, YOU KNOW, OUR ANCESTORS, AND I HAVE MY ANCESTORS BY THE WAY.

I CAN SHOW YOU.

MY ANCESTORS ARE HERE.

THEY'RE HERE.

>> THOSE ARE GREAT PICTURES, YES.

FROM SCOTLAND.

>> YEAH.

YES.

IN SCOTLAND, IN THE NORTHEAST OF SCOTLAND.

>> YEP.

>> AND I THOUGHT, I WANTED TO START WITH MY MATERNAL LINE FROM THE PAST BECAUSE IT'S NOTHING TO DO WITH WHO I BECAME, AND IT'S -- PROBABLY I'M THE FIRST WOMAN IN THE WHOLE OF MY FAMILY THAT EVER STEPPED FOOT ON A STAGE, YOU KNOW, AND HOW HARD THE WOMEN HAD TO WORK.

MOST OF MY FAMILY WERE NOT WEALTHY.

WE WERE NOT -- WE WERE -- I MEAN, I LOOK BACK INTO MY HISTORY.

PEOPLE WERE PAUPERS, YOU KNOW, AND MILLIONS OF US WERE PAUPERS, AND IT'S JUST -- >> YEAH.

>> -- YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER THAT THERE WERE PEOPLE THAT WENT BEFORE YOU, AND THAT WITHOUT THEM, YOU WOULDN'T BE HERE AND HOW DIFFERENT IT IS.

WE'RE IN THE TECHNOLOGICAL AGE.

WE'VE COME THROUGH THE INDUSTRIAL TIME, AND EVERYTHING WAS VERY, VERY LABOR-INTENSIVE, INCREDIBLE -- THEY DIDN'T HAVE HOLIDAYS.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE ELECTRICITY.

THEY DIDN'T HAVE CARS, AIRPLANES, PHONES, AND WE'VE ADAPTED TO ALL OF THAT, AND YOU CAN SEE IT IN THE "SWEET DREAMS" VIDEO THAT THERE'S SOME REFERENCE TO MODERNITY AND TECHNOLOGY AND HOW WE'VE GOT THE COW THERE, YOU KNOW, IT'S AS ANCIENT AS DAYS.

>> YEAH, THE COW.

THAT'S A GOOD PICTURE.

JUST VERY, VERY BRIEFLY, ARE THERE MUSICAL ARTISTS WHO YOU LISTEN TO?

HAS YOUR OWN TASTE EVOLVED?

I MEAN, OBVIOUSLY IT HAS I'M SURE, BUT YOUR BOOK IS A TREASURE TROVE FOR THOSE OF US WHO GREW UP ON YOUR MUSIC.

WHAT ABOUT THE YOUNGER GENERATION?

>> I THINK IT'S A VERY DIFFERENT -- THE BUSINESS MODEL LET'S SAY OF THE MUSIC INDUSTRY COMPARED TO HOW IT WAS WHEN I STARTED OUT IS VERY, VERY DIFFERENT.

I WAS -- I WAS RARE IN THE FACT THAT I WAS -- I AM FEMALE, AND THERE WERE A FEW SINGER/SONGWRITERS -- FEMALE SINGER/SONGWRITERS NOW.

NOW YOU HAVE THOUSANDS.

EVERYBODY HAS THE POSSIBILITY TO MAKE MUSIC IN THEIR BEDROOMS, YOU KNOW, WITH THE TECHNOLOGY TODAY.

YOU'RE JUST WORKING ON A COMPUTER.

IT'S A VERY, VERY DIFFERENT SCENE, AND I MEAN, I DON'T KNOW HOW I WOULD HONESTLY HAVE FARED IF I HAD TO BE A YOUNG MUSICIAN NOW BECAUSE I THINK IT'S VERY, VERY HARD CORE IN SO MANY WAYS.

THERE'S SO MUCH COMPETITION.

NOW WE HAVE AI THAT'S COMING IN.

OF COURSE, IT'S HERE ALREADY, AND YOUNG MUSICIANS ARE CONCERNED ABOUT HOW ARE THEY POSSIBLY GOING TO BE ABLE TO -- >> YEP.

>> -- BECOME, YOU KNOW, A FUTURE MUSICIAN IF THEY CAN'T SUSTAIN THEMSELVES?

>> WELL, IT'S AN AMAZING STORY.

IT'S BEEN WONDERFUL HAVING THIS CONVERSATION.

THE BOOK IS REALLY SOMETHING TO LOOK AT.

>> THANK YOU.

>> AND TO READ AS WELL.

"ANNIE LENNOX: RETROSPECTIVE."

THANK YOU.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> THE SCENES CONSIDER CHAOTIC.

LAST MONDAY, NEARLY 2,000 PALESTINIANS RELEASED FROM PRISONS AS THE CEASEFIRE SAW THE REMAINING ISRAELI HOSTAGES FINALLY FREED.

WHO ARE THESE PALESTINIANS?

WHY WERE THEY DETAINED?

MICHELLE MARTIN POSES THESE QUESTIONS TO SARAH LEE WITSZAM DIRECTOR OF DAWN, DEMOCRACY FOR THE RAB WORLD NOW.

THIS CONVERSATION DOES CONTAIN CONTENT THAT SOME MAY FIND DISTRESSING.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR SPEAKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

>> I WANTED TO SPEAK TO YOU BECAUSE YOU ARE A HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER.

YOUR WORK FOCUSED ON THE MIDDLE EAST.

IN THE WAKE OF THE -- I'LL CALL IT A DEAL, THE AGREEMENT TO AT LEAST BRING A CEASEFIRE TO THE GAZA WAR, A LOT OF ATTENTION HAS BEEN FOCUSED ON THE HARROWING TENSIONS THAT ISRAELI HOSTAGES HAVE BEEN LIVING UNDER.

WHAT'S ALSO TAKEN PLACE IS THE PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE BEEN HELD BY THE ISRAELI AUTHORITIES HAVE ALSO BEEN RELEASED.

AT THIS POINT, I THINK IT'S 2,000 PRISONERS HAVE BEEN RELEASED AND I DON'T KNOW THAT THERE HAS BEEN AS MUCH ATTENTION ON THE CONDITIONS THAT THEY HAVE BEEN LIVING UNDER.

SO THE FIRST THING I WANTED TO ASK YOU IS, WHY WERE THESE PEOPLE DETAINED OR ARRESTED TO BEGIN WITH?

>> SURE.

THERE WAS A MASSIVE UPTICK IN IMPRISONMENT IN PALESTINIANS, PRIMARILY FROM GAZA, BUT ALSO FROM THE WEST BANK IN THE IMMEDIATE WAKE OF THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACKS.

THE NUMBER OF PALESTINIAN DETAINEES HELD IN ISRAELI MILITARY CAMPS OR IN ISRAELI PRISONS, MORE THAN QUINTUPLED.

MANY OF THESE, MOST OF THESE FROM GAZA WERE DETAINED UNDER ISRAEL'S SO-CALLED UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS LAW WHICH ALLOWS IT TO DETAIN PEOPLE OUTSIDE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL ON ALLEGATIONS OF MEMBERSHIP IN TERRORIST ORGANIZATION, BUT MANY ARE ALSO DETAINED UNDER ISRAEL'S ADMINISTRATIVE DETENTION LAW WHICH ALLOWS ISRAEL'S DEFENSE MINISTER OR MILITARY COMMANDERS TO DETAIN ANYONE, TYPICALLY PALESTINIAN OF COURSE, ON THE BASIS THAT THEY POSE A SECURITY RISK ON THE BASIS OF SECRET EVIDENCE THAT CAN BE RENEWED INDEFINITELY IN PERPETUITY WITHOUT THE DETAINEE EVER EVEN KNOWING WHY THEY'RE BEING DETAINED.

>> ABOUT 1,700 OF THE 2,000 PEOPLE WHO WERE RELEASED HAD NEVER BEEN THROUGH ANY KIND OF A PROCESS, A JUDICIAL PROCESS.

IS THAT RIGHT?

>> THAT'S ACCURATE BECAUSE UNDER THE ADMINISTRATIVE DETENTION LAW, NO ONE NEEDS TO BE PROSECUTED OR SENTENCED IN ORDER TO REMAIN IMPRISONED.

THERE ARE CASES OF PALESTINIAN DETAINEES WHO HAVE BEEN HELD FOR OVER A DECADE UNDER SO-CALLED ADMINISTRATIVE DETENTION, ON THE BASIS OF SECRET EVIDENCE THAT THEIR LAWYERS NEVER HAVE AN OPPORTUNITY TO ACTUALLY CHALLENGE, AND IN THE WAKE OF THESE -- THE PAST TWO YEARS DETAINEES HAVE TECHNICALLY HAD THEIR DETENTION RENEWED IN SOME KIND OF A JUDICIAL PROCESS, BUT THAT JUDICIAL PROCESS HAS ENTAILED TYPICALLY A MILITARY JUDGE.

SO A SOLDIER, WHO HAS A VIDEO CALL WITH THE DETAINEE LASTING IN SOME CASES, LESS THAN TWO MINUTES WHERE THE DETENTION IS AUTOMATICALLY RENEWED.

SO THERE'S NO ACTUAL SUBSTANTIVE REVIEW OR OPPORTUNITY TO APPEAL OR OPPORTUNITY TO DEFEND ONESELF FOR THESE THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF PALESTINIANS WHO ARE DETAINED UNDER ADMINISTRATIVE DETENTION OR UNDER THE COMBATANTS LAW, THE UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS LAW WHICH IS EVEN WORSE BECAUSE UNDER THE UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS LAW, THE BURDEN OF PROOF IS ON THE DETAINEE TO PROVE THAT THEY ARE NOT A SECURITY THREAT TO ISRAEL EVEN IF THEY DON'T KNOW AND MAY NEVER KNOW THE BASIS ON WHICH THE -- THE SECRET EVIDENCE ON WHICH THEY HAVE BEEN DETAINED.

>> I UNDERSTAND THAT ABOUT 1,700 OF THEM WERE HELD UNDER THESE TERMS THAT YOU HAVE BEEN DESCRIBING.

THIS ADMINISTRATIVE DETENTION.

WHAT ABOUT THE REST?

>> SO 250 TO 300 OF THOSE WHO WERE EXCHANGED AS PART OF THE HOSTAGE DEAL INCLUDE PALESTINIANS WHO WERE CONVICTED BY ISRAELI CRIMINAL COURTS UNDER ISRAELI CRIMINAL LAW FOR VARIOUS OFFENSES.

SOME OF WHOM HAD LIFE SENTENCES AGAINST THEM FOR CRIMES COMMITTED AGAINST ISRAELIS FROM DECADES AGO.

SOME OF WHOM HAD BEEN CONVICTED OF LESSER OFFENSES, A MEMBERSHIP IN HAMAS, A VARIETY OF DIFFERENT OFFENSES.

SOME FROM THE WEST BANK.

I BELIEVE ABOUT 150 OF THOSE WHO WERE RELEASED HAVE BEEN EXILED.

SO NOT ONLY WERE THEY RELEASED, BUT THEY WERE FORCED TO LEAVE PALESTINE COMPLETELY.

>> NO WESTERN JOURNALISTS HAVE BEEN ABLE TO ENTER GAZA SINCE ISRAEL'S MILITARY CAMPAIGN BEGAN THERE WHEN WAR BROKE OUT IN OCTOBER OF 2023.

WE ARE NOW RELYING ON ACCOUNTS FROM PEOPLE WHO HAVE BEEN RELEASED, OF FAMILY MEMBERS, YOU KNOW, ET CETERA.

DO YOU KNOW WHAT WERE THEIR CIRCUMSTANCES, LIKE, WHO ARE THEY?

>> WE KNOW THAT AMONG THE 1,700 RELEASED WERE A HANDFUL OF CHILDREN, SOME WOMEN, A FEW DOZEN OVER THE AGE OF 60, AND SO PRIMARILY A MALE POPULATION DETAINED UNDER ADMINISTRATIVE DETENTION AND RELEASED WITHOUT ANY CHARGE EVER HAVING BEEN BROUGHT AGAINST THEM.

THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO WERE NEVER CHARGED WITH ANYTHING.

>> BY CHILDREN, YOU MEAN WHAT?

>> THE LEGAL DEFINITION OF A CHILD UNDER INTERNATIONAL LAW AND ACTUALLY MOST U.S.

STATES IS 18.

>> 18.

>> SO I DON'T KNOW THE NUMBERS, BUT I DO KNOW THAT THE UNITED NATIONS HAS CLASSIFIED AND REPORTED ON THEM AS CHILDREN.

THEY'RE PROBABLY TEENAGERS.

WE HAVE A CASE OF ONE TEEN WHO DIED IN CUSTODY AMONG THE 80 PALESTINIANS WHO HAVE DIED IN CUSTODY OVER THE PAST TWO YEARS WHICH, YOU KNOW, IS A SHOCKING -- SHOCKING NUMBER, AND THE REPORTS THAT WE'RE SEEING OF PEOPLE WHO HAVE COME OUT AND I IMAGINE PEOPLE ARE SEEING THEM IN THE NEWS, IS OF SEVERE TORTURE, SEVERE ABUSE, SEXUAL VIOLENCE, RAPE, HUMILIATION, DEGRADATION, AND, YOU KNOW, VIRTUALLY VERY LIMITED ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE.

THE MOST DISTURBING OF COURSE, IS THE RECENT REVELATIONS THAT AMONG THE BODIES OF PALESTINIANS RETURNED, 135 OF THEM SHOW THAT THEY WERE EXECUTED WITH THEIR HANDS TIED BEHIND THEIR BACKS AFTER SUFFERING EXTREME TORTURE, AND THE IMAGES ARE SO GRAPHIC THAT THEY ACTUALLY HAVEN'T EVEN BEEN POSTED ON THE MEDIA, BUT WE HAVE THE JOURNALISTS WHO HAVE SEEN THE IMAGES REPORTING ON THEM.

>> AND FORGIVE ME FOR -- LET'S BE CLEAR FOR A MINUTE.

WHEN WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OR THE, WHAT DO WE MEAN?

>> WE'RE TALKING ABOUT CASES OF RAPE AND SEXUAL ASSAULT IN SOME CASES, USING SOMETHING CALLED A HOT ROD TO PENETRATE THE ORIFICES.

>> YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MEN AND WOMEN?

YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT MALES AS WELL AS FEMALES?

>> THE REPORTED CASES WE HAVE OF ACTUAL RAPE ARE MEN, BUT THERE ARE CASES OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AND SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN DETAINEES AS WELL.

THE U.N.

HAS PUT OUT EXTENSIVE REPORTING ON THIS, PHYSICIANS FOR HUMAN RIGHTS IN ISRAEL HAS REPORTED ON THIS, A HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATION THAT HAS EXTENSIVELY AND DOCUMENTED AND REPORTED ON THIS.

IT INCLUDES BEATINGS, IT INCLUDES A DENIAL OF MEDICAL CARE.

THERE WAS ONE RECENT CASE OF A YOUNG PALESTINIAN BOY, MAN, I THINK AROUND THE AGE OF 17 OR 18 WHO DIED -- WHO DIED OF MEDICAL NEGLECT AND DAMAGE TO HIS BODY AS A RESULT OF THAT.

ONE PALESTINIAN DETAINEE, ALSO A YOUNG MAN, WAS JUST RELEASED COMPLETELY PARALYZED BECAUSE OF INFECTIONS HE SUFFERED FROM SCABIES INSIDE THE PRISON, ULTIMATELY LEADING TO BLOOD INFECTION AND PARALYSIS OF HIS BODY.

YOU KNOW, WE HAVE BEEN WARNING ABOUT THE DETERIORATING CONDITIONS IN ISRAELI PRISONS FOR OVER A YEAR NOW.

>> MM-HMM.

>> SINCE THIS MINISTER TOOK OVER THE PRISON SERVICES IN ISRAEL, HE HAS PROUDLY ANNOUNCED THE DRASTIC NEW CONDITIONS THAT HE'S IMPOSED ON PRISONERS, DEPRIVING THEM OF FOOD, DRAMATICALLY LIMITING THEIR INTAKE OF FOOD, LIMITING THEIR ACCESS NOT ONLY TO MEDICAL CARE, BUT EVEN TO WATER, EVEN TO ELECTRICITY, ALLOWING THEM TO SHOWER ONCE A WEEK IN MANY CASES, AND OF COURSE, DRAMATICALLY RESTRICTING THEIR ABILITY TO COMMUNICATE WITH THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS OR EVEN THEIR LAWYERS.

>> LET ME JUMP IN FOR A SECOND AND JUST SAY IN JULY OF 2024, THE MINISTER SAID ON X, THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORM, WHICH IS NOW OWNED BY ELON MUSK, QUOTE, ONE OF THE HIGHEST GOALS I HAVE SET FOR MYSELF IS TO WORSEN THE CONDITIONS OF THE TERRORISTS IN THE PRISONS AND TO REDUCE THEIR RIGHTS TO THE MINIMUM REQUIRED BY LAW.

NOW WE REACHED OUT TO THE ISRAELI PRISON SERVICE FOR COMMENT ABOUT THE CONDITIONS THAT PALESTINIANS ARE BEING HELD IN.

WE HAVE NOT HEARD BACK AS OF THIS MOMENT, AS OF OUR CONVERSATION, BUT THEY DID GIVE A STATEMENT TO THE "WASHINGTON POST" LAST WEEK WHERE THEY SAID, QUOTE, ALL INMATES ARE HELD ACCORDING TO LEGAL PROCEDURES AND THEIR RIGHTS INCLUDING ACCESS TO MEDICAL CARE AND ADEQUATE LIVING CONDITIONS ARE UPHELD BY PROFESSIONALLY TRAINED STAFF.

, UNQUOTE, AND ISRAELIS TOLD "THE ASSOCIATED PRESS," THAT ANY VIOLENCES BY PRISON PERSONNEL ARE INVESTIGATED.

SO I WOULD ASK YOU FOR YOUR RESPONSE TO THOSE COMMENTS.

>> WELL, UNFORTUNATELY, I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THOSE CLAIMS ARE CREDIBLE.

EVEN THE HEAD OF ISRAEL'S INTERNAL SECURITY FORCES ISSUED A PUBLIC LETTER LAMBASTING THE PRISON SERVICES AND THE MINISTER FOR THE VIOLATION OF DETAINEE RIGHTS IN ISRAELI CUSTODY.

THE FACT THAT OVER 80 PALESTINIAN PRISONERS HAVE DIED IN CUSTODY AND THAT FACT THAT ISRAELI COURTS ARE NOW CRIMINALLY INVESTIGATING ISRAELI PRISON OFFICIALS FOR THE DEATHS OF 34 OF THOSE DETAINEES, THE FACT THAT COUNTLESS HUMAN RIGHTS ORGANIZATIONS HAVE DOCUMENTED THE NEAR STARVATION CONDITIONS, WHICH WE CAN SEE WITH OUR OWN EYES WITH SOME OF THE RELEASED PALESTINIANS, AND THEIR GAUNT APPEARANCE DOCUMENTING HOW MUCH WEIGHT THEY'VE LOST, THE FACT THAT THE INTERNATIONAL COMMITTEE OF THE RED CROSS HAS BEEN BANNED FROM ACTUALLY MONITORING PRISON CONDITIONS IS YET ANOTHER INDICATION IF ISRAELI PRISON SERVICES DIDN'T HAVE ANYTHING TO HIDE, THEY WOULDN'T BE PROHIBITING EVEN THE ICRC FROM ACCESS.

UNFORTUNATELY, THE MINISTER AND THE ISRAELI PRISON SERVICES HAVE -- I WOULD SAY LITTLE TO ZERO CREDIBILITY IN THEIR CLAIMS WHICH ARE ABUNDANTLY REBUTTED BY THE ACTUAL FACTS.

>> SO AS YOU POINTED OUT, THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF WHICH PEOPLE HAVE BEEN DETAINED ARE NOT NECESSARILY MADE UBLIC.

THE CHARGES ARE NOT MADE PUBLIC, OR THE ALLEGATIONS ARE NOT MADE PUBLIC, BUT DO YOU HAVE ANY SENSE OF THE PEOPLE WHO REMAIN IN DETENTION?

>> SO THE ESTIMATES OF DETAINEES BASICALLY OVER THE LAST TWO YEARS, SO NOT PEOPLE WITH PREEXISTING CRIMINAL PROSECUTIONS.

>> MM-HMM.

>> THEY HAVE RANGED FROM 9,500 TO 12,000, AND PART OF THE REASON FOR THE VARIANCE IN THE NUMBER IS THAT THERE ARE HUNDREDS, IF NOT, THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE MISSING AND WE DON'T ACTUALLY KNOW WHAT'S HAPPENED TO THEM.

SO FOR EXAMPLE, THE 135 PALESTINIAN BODIES THAT WERE JUST EXCHANGED AS PART OF THE HOSTAGE SWAP HAD NO NAMES ATTACHED TO THEM.

THEY HAD ONLY NUMBERS.

ISRAELIS WHO HAD DETAINED THEM NEVER BOTHERED OR ARE NOT RELEASING THEIR ACTUAL NAMES, AND IT'S REALLY PART OF THE DEHUMANIZATION PROCESS TO REDUCE HUMAN BEINGS TO NUMBERS.

>> OF THE PEOPLE WHO REMAIN IN DETENTION, DO YOU HAVE ANY VISIBILITY INTO WHO THEY ARE, WHAT CHARGES THERE MAY BE AGAINST THEM OR UNDER WHAT CIRCUMSTANCES THEY WERE DETAINED?

>> OF THOSE WHO HAVE BEEN DETAINED, LET'S JUST SAY IN THE LAST TWO YEARS, SINCE THE OCTOBER 7 ATTACK IN ISRAEL, THERE ARE -- THERE HAVE BEEN CRIMINAL CHARGES BROUGHT UNDER ISRAELI CRIMINAL LAW AGAINST APPROXIMATELY 300 PEOPLE.

I BELIEVE THESE ARE PEOPLE WHO WERE CAPTURED, YOU KNOW, WHILE COMMITTING THE -- THE CRIMES AND THE MURDERS ON OCTOBER 7, BUT THOSE ARE THE CASES IN WHICH THERE ARE ACTUAL CRIMINAL CHARGES.

SO FOR THE OTHER THOUSANDS AND THOUSANDS OF DETAINEES, THEY'RE HELD UNDER TWO DIFFERENT LAWS.

ONE IS THE ADMINISTRATIVE DETENTION LAW, AND ONE IS THE ILLEGAL -- OR UNLAWFUL COMBATANTS LAW.

>> FIRST, I WOULD SAY ISRAELI OFFICIALS SAY THAT THESE DETENTIONS ARE MEANT TO PROTECT AGAINST VERY REAL AND CREDIBLE SECURITY THREATS AND THEY POINT TO OCTOBER 7th AS AN EXAMPLE OF THAT, LIKE, HOW WOULD YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> WELL, I THINK EVERY TIME ANYONE IS DETAINED ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD, IT IS TO PREVENT FURTHER HARM.

IT'S BECAUSE THE PERSON IS DEEMED TO BE A SECURITY RISK, NOT JUST TO PUNISH THEM, BUT TO PREVENT THEM FROM COMMITTING FUTURE CRIMES.

THAT IS THE WHOLE MODEL OF INCARCERATION, BUT THERE ARE GLOBAL RULES THAT APPLY TO EVERY COUNTRY IN THE WORLD INCLUDING ISRAEL.

ISRAEL IS NOT ABOVE THE LAW THAT APPLIES TO THE UNITED STATES OR TO CHINA OR TO RUSSIA WITH RESPECT TO HOW DETAINEES MAY BE THREATED, WITH RESPECT TO THEIR ABILITY TO HAVE ACCESS TO FOOD, WATER, MEDICAL CARE, ACCESS TO A LAWYER, A RIGHT TO CONNECT WITH THEIR FAMILY MEMBERS, AND THESE ARE ALL RULES THAT ARE ENSHRINED VERY CLEARLY IN INTERNATIONAL LAW, AND THAT ISRAEL HAS BEEN NEGLECTING FOR A VERY LONG TIME, BUT THAT, YOU KNOW, COMPLETELY ABANDONED IN THE PAST TWO YEARS.

I WOULD SAY FURTHERMORE THAT THE NOTION OF HAVING A RIGHT TO A JUDICIAL PROCESS, THE RIGHT TO HAVING EVIDENCE AGAINST YOU HEARD IN A COURT OF LAW, THE RIGHT TO HAVING AN INDEPENDENT JUDGE DETERMINE WHETHER OR NOT THERE'S A BAYS SIS FOR YOUR DETENTION, THOSE ARE ALSO GLOBALLY RECOGNIZED INTERNATIONAL LAWS, GLOBALLY RECOGNIZED HUMAN RIGHTS THAT THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT HAS COMPLETELY IGNORED BECAUSE IT HAS FOR DECADES, IMPRISONED PALESTINIANS WITHOUT GIVING THEM ANY REAL OPPORTUNITY TO CHALLENGE THEIR DETENTION ON THE BASIS OF SECRET EVIDENCE THAT THEY CAN NEVER EVEN KNOW AND A PROCEDURE THAT ALLOWS THEM TO BE DETAINED FOREVER IN PERPETUITY ON THE BASIS OF THIS SECRET EVIDENCE.

>> THERE ARE SOME WHO WILL HEAR THIS CONVERSATION AND WILL SAY THAT THAT'S UNFORTUNATE.

THAT'S EVEN CRUEL.

IT'S POSSIBLY WRONG, BUT IT'S ROUGH JUSTICE IN A WAY BECAUSE HAMAS ATTACKED ISRAEL ON OCTOBER 7th.

WOMEN, BABIES, YOU KNOW, CHILDREN, YOU KNOW, KIDNAPPED, PEOPLE WERE HELD IN BRUTAL CONDITIONS.

PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN -- UNDER THESE BRUTAL CONDITIONS.

PEOPLE WERE STARVED, YOU KNOW, THE ISRAELI HOSTAGES WERE STARVED, AND HAMAS DID NOT CONFORM TO ANY STANDARDS OF -- OF INTERNATIONAL LAW OR HUMAN RIGHTS.

WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO SOMEONE WHO HAS THAT POINT OF VIEW?

>> WELL, I WOULD SAY THAT THE INTERNATIONAL RULES THAT WE HAVE IN PLACE WHICH MOST COUNTRIES HAVE ADOPTED AS THEIR OWN LAWS SUCH AS THE CONVENTION AGAINST TORTURE, THEY ARE DESIGNED SPECIFICALLY TO ADDRESS CIRCUMSTANCES WHERE THE CITIZENRY OF A NATION HAS BEEN WRONGED, WHERE THEY HAVE SUFFERED CRIMES.

THERE'S NOTHING UNIQUE ABOUT ISRAEL'S EXPERIENCE IN SUFFERING A TERRIBLE ATTACK ON CIVILIANS, A TERRORIST ATTACK ON CIVILIANS JUST AS I DON'T THINK YOU CAN PROBABLY POINT TO MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD THAT HAVEN'T EXPERIENCED HORRIBLE CRIMES AGAINST THEIR CITIZENS.

THE POINT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW IS THAT IT IS THE LAW, AND IT IS WHAT IS GOING TO DISTINGUISH LAW-ABIDING NATIONS, LAW-ABIDING GOVERNMENTS, FROM LAWLESS GOVERNMENTS BECAUSE IF THE GOVERNMENTS ACT AS BRUTALLY AND VICIOUSLY AS THE PEOPLE THEY ARE PURPORTING TO FIGHT AGAINST, IT'S REALLY JUST A RACE TO THE BOTTOM, AND IF YOU LOOK AT THE RESPONSE OF ISRAEL TO THE ATTACKS ON OCTOBER 7, I THINK ANYONE WOULD BE HARD PRESSED TO SAY THAT HAMAS' ATTACK AND THE HORRIBLE MURDERS THEY COMMITTED THERE WERE SOMEHOW WORSE THAN THE EXPONENTIALLY MORE MASSIVE AND INDISCRIMINATE AND WIDE SCALE DESTRUCTION OF PALESTINIAN LIVES WHICH HAS NOW EXCEEDED OVER 60,000, AND I'M SURE WE'LL DISCOVER IT EXCEEDS MUCH MORE THAN THAT.

>> THE ARGUMENT HERE -- THIS ISN'T, LIKE, A CONTEST OF ATROCITIES HERE.

>> NO.

>> IS THE ISSUE HERE THAT ISRAEL AS A NATION STATE, AS A MEMBER OF THE COMMUNITY OF NATIONS SHOULD BE HELD TO THE SAME STANDARD AS OTHER NATION STATES?

IS THAT THE CORE OF THE ARGUMENT?

>> I THINK IT'S ABSOLUTELY THE CORE OF THE ARGUMENT, BUT THIS IS NOT JUST ABOUT HOLDING ISRAEL TO THE SAME STANDARDS OF INTERNATIONAL LAW.

IT'S ABOUT RECOGNIZING AND STARTING WITH THE UNDERSTANDING THAT ISRAEL'S OCCUPATION OF PALESTINIAN TERRITORY IS UNLAWFUL, AND THE INTERNATIONAL COURT OF JUSTICE AND U.N.

GENERAL ASSEMBLY HAVE ORDERED ISRAEL TO END ITS OCCUPATION, TO WITHDRAW ITS FORCES AND WITHDRAW ITS SETTLERS FROM OCCUPIED PALESTINIAN TERRITORIES.

OCCUPATION -- ILLEGAL OCCUPATION, PARTHEID RULE, THESE ARE ALSO CRIMES.

IT'S NOT ABOUT JUST, LET'S JUST MEET THE STANDARDS OF THE REST OF THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY.

IT'S ABOUT RIGHTLY FOCUSING ON THE SEVERE ISRAELI CRIMES THAT INTERNATIONAL COURTS OF JUSTICE HAVE ORDERED BE BROUGHT TO AN END.

>> SARAH LEAH WHITSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>>> WE CONTINUE TO ASK ISRAELI OFFICIALS ONTO THE PROGRAM, AND JUST TO NOTE, U.S.

VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE AGAIN STATED THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION WILL NOT ALLOW THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT TO ANNEX THE OCCUPIED WEST BANK.

AND FINALLY, A RUNNING PHENOMENON.

SHE'S BROKEN MULTIPLE RECORDS, WON 12 WORLD TITLES, SHE'S STILL GOING AT THE AGE OF 92.

AN ATILEITALIAN ELITE SPRINTER REFUSES TO LET AGE SLOW HER DOWN.

ANTONIA MORTENSON TRAVELED TO ITALY TO FIND OUT THE SECRETS OF HER LONGEVITY.

♪ LANGUAGE ] [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> Reporter: ANNA MODENGA IS NO ORDINARY 92-YEAR-OLD.

SHE'S AN ITALIAN ELITE SPRINTER WHO HAS BROKEN MULTIPLE WORLD RECORDS.

>> Reporter: BORN IN 1933, EMMA MADE HEADLINES WHEN SHE BROKE THE INDOOR 200-METER WORLD RECORD IN HER AGE GROUP IN 2024 WITH A TIME OF 54:47.

SHE'S A REAL TESTAMENT THAT IT'S NEVER TOO LATE TO START AGAIN.

EMMA STOPPED TRAINING AFTER COLLEGE WHERE SHE RAN TRACK.

SHE BECAME A HIGH SCHOOL TEACHER, GOT MARRIED, STARTED A FAMILY, AND THEN AT THE AGE OF 53, AFTER A 25-YEAR HIATUS, DUSTED OFF HER RUNNING SHOES.

>> Reporter: SHE TTRACTED THE ATTENTION OF A TEAM OF AMERICAN IS AND ITALIAN SCIENTISTS.

THEY ARE TRYING TO UNDERSTAND HOW SOMEONE HER AGE COULD NOT ONLY RUN, BUT SO FAST.

SO FAR, THEY FOUND THAT MAZZENGA'S CARDIORESPIRATORY FITNESS IS LIKE THAT OF SOMEONE IN HER 20s, AND SHE'S AS HEALTHY AS A 20-YEAR-OLD.

>> AND BRAVO.

THAT'S IT FOR NOW.

WE WILL ALSO LEAVE YOU WITH A LITTLE MORE ANNIE LENNOX.

THIS TIME FROM 2018 WHEN SHE WOWED ME BY SINGING RIGHT HERE IN THE STUDIO.

SO THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOOD BYE FROM LONDON.

♪ WELL, THERE WAS A TIME WHEN WE USED TO SAY ♪ ♪ THAT BEHIND EVERY GREAT MAN ♪ ♪ THERE'S A GREAT WOMAN ♪ ♪ WELL, IN THESE TIMES ♪ ♪ YOU KNOW IT'S NO LONGER TRUE ♪ ♪ SO WE'RE COMING OUT OF THE KITCHEN ♪ ♪ BECAUSE THERE'S SOMETHING WE FORGOT TO SAY TO YOU ♪ ♪ WE SAY SISTERS ARE DOING IT FOR THEMSELVES ♪ ♪ OH YEAH ♪ >> BRILLIANT.