October 30, 2025

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE.

WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."

HERE IS WHAT'S COMING UP.

TRUMP TOUTS A NEW DEAL WITH XI.

A FORMER U.S.

NATIONAL DEPUTY ADVISOR MATT POTTINGER JOINS ME.

HORROR AND CARNAGE IN SUDAN.

A CHILLING REPORT ABOUT THE PEOPLE TRAPPED IN A BLOODY CIVIL WAR.

THEN, THE ZOHRAN MAMDANI AFFECT.

NEW YORKERS BEGIN VOTING FOR THEIR NEXT MAYOR.

I SPEAK TO A CONFIDANTE AND CAMPAIGNER, PATRICK GASPARD.

JULIA IOFFE SPEAKING WITH MICHEL MARTIN ABOUT FEMINISM IN MODERN RUSSIA.

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>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

PRESIDENT TRUMP'S LONG AWAITED MEETING WITH CHINA'S LEADER XI JINPING HAS RESULTED IN SOME SUCCESS FOR BOTH SIDES WITH AGREEMENTS ON RARE EARTH MINERALS AND TARIFFS.

WHILE THE DEALS MAY BE A WELCOME SIGN, TRUMP'S UNEXPECTED ORDER TO START NUCLEAR WEAPONS TESTING AGAIN FOR THE FIRST TIME IN 33 YEARS GRABBED THE BIGGER HEADLINES.

MATT POTTINGER WAS THE PRESIDENT'S DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISOR DURING HIS FIRST TERM.

HE WAS AN INFLUENTIAL VOICE REGARDING THE CHINA POLICY.

HE IS JOINING LIVE NOW FROM UTAH.

WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANKS.

GOOD TO BE WITH YOU.

>> TELL ME, IS THIS A BIG DEAL?

GIVE ME THE WINS AND LOSING WHAT CHINA GOT, WHAT XI GOT OUT OF THE MEETING.

>> THIS IS THE FIRST TIME THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS MET IN PERSON WITH XI JINPING IN SIX YEARS.

IT WAS BACK IN OSAKA AT THE G G20 IN 2019 THEY MET.

I WOULD CALL IT A FRAGILE TRUCE ON TRADE MATTERS THAT CAME OUT OF THIS.

CHINA IS NOT GOING FORWARD WITH ITS MOST DRACONIAN THREAT, WHICH WAS TO REGULATE ALL TRADE BETWEEN ALL NATIONS SO LONG AS GOODS CONTAINED TRACE AMOUNTS OF CHINESE RARE EARTHS.

A LOT OF TECHNOLOGY THAT MATTERS DO CONTAIN CHINESE RARE EARTH.

THAT WOULD HAVE BEEN AN EXTREME STEP BY CHINA THAT WOULD HAVE LED TO A GLOBAL RECESSION.

AT THE SAME TIME, PRESIDENT TRUMP AGREED TO WITHHOLD UM IMPLEMENTING FURTHER TARIFFS ON CHINA.

HE AGREED TO REPEAL SOME OF THE NEW TARIFFS, ABOUT TEN PERCENTAGE POINTS ON THE TARIFFS ON CHINA AS A DOWN PAYMENT ON THE IDEA THAT CHINA IS GOING TO FINALLY REIGN IN ITS STATE SUBSIDIZED SUPPORT FOR THE FENTANYL TRADE THAT'S KILLING SO MANY AMERICANS.

IN FACT, IT'S THE LEADING CAUSE OF DEATH FOR AMERICANS BETWEEN THE AGE -- MEN BETWEEN THE AGE OF 18 AND 49.

THIS LOOKS TO ME LIKE A FRAGILE TRUCE.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

ONE QUICK QUESTION ABOUT THE AMERICAN FARMERS.

I THINK CHINA AGREED ALSO, AT LEAST -- I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG, BUT TO START BUYING AMERICAN SOYBEANS AGAIN, CORRECT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

THAT IS COMING BACK TO WHERE THEY WERE IN A SENSE.

MAYBE THEY WILL GO BEYOND THEIR TYPICAL PURCHASES.

IT'S BEEN IN RECENT MONTHS CHINA COMPLETELY ZEROED OUT PURCHASES OF AMERICAN SOYBEANS AS A WAY TO ACQUIRE LEVERAGE FOR TALKS.

THE LEVERAGE WORKED.

IT WAS ONE OF THE THINGS PRESIDENT TRUMP ASKED FOR.

HE IS GETTING THAT.

HE HAS MADE SOME CONCESSIONS.

THE TARIFFS ON FENTANYL, PRESIDENT TRUMP AGREED TO WITHHOLD NOT JUST NEW TARIFFS BUT ALSO SOME OF THE NEW RULES THAT HIS COMMERCE DEPARTMENT HAD PUT IN THAT WOULD HAVE PREVENTED AMERICAN COMPANIES FROM DOING BUSINESS WITH ABOUT 20,000 CHINESE COMPANIES THAT MIGHT HAVE MILITARY TIES AND THE LIKE.

SOME CONCESSIONS ON BOTH SIDES.

>> LET'S JUST STEP BACK A LITTLE BIT FROM THE DETAILS AND TRY TO FIGURE OUT WHAT WAS THE STRATEGY HERE.

A FELLOW SAID, I THINK IT'S AN APPROACH THAT'S TACTICS WITHOUT A STRATEGY.

THE GOAL WAS TO ADDRESS SOME OF THE MEATY TRADE ISSUES THAT HAD BEDEVILLED THE RELATIONSHIP.

INSTEAD, THE PRC, CHINA, HAS SUCCESSFULLY ORCHESTRATED A GAME OF WHACK A MOLE FOR THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

THE QUESTION FROM ME TO YOU IS, DID PRESIDENT TRUMP SORT OF START THIS TRADE WAR BY THE TARIFFS HE PUT ON AND ALL THE REST OF IT, XI HIT BACK, HE DIDN'T BEND, HE HIT BACK ON RARE MINERALS AND SOY.

NOW THEY HAVE GOT BACK TO STATUS QUO.

IS THAT A CORRECT READING OF THE SITUATION?

>> YEAH, MORE OR LESS.

REMEMBER, THE BIG SORT OF SALVO WAS BACK IN APRIL WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP DID HIS LIBERATION DAY TARIFFS, RECIPROCAL TARIFFS IN THE WORLD.

ONE COUNTRY RETALIATED RATHER THAN NEGOTIATIONS.

THAT WAS THE PEOPLE'S REPUBLIC OF CHINA.

PRESIDENT TRUMP COUNTER-ESCALATED UP TO 145% TARIFFS ON CHINA, WHICH HIS TREASURY SECRETARY RIGHTLY DESCRIBED AS A TRADE EMBARGO ON CHINA.

WHAT DID CHINA DO NEXT?

IT BEGAN TO CUT OFF THE FLOW OF RARE EARTHS AND THE MAGNETS THAT ARE MADE FROM RARE EARTHS THAT GO INTO EVERYTHING, COMPUTERS, THEY GO INTO MILITARY EQUIPMENT, THEY GO INTO ELECTRONICS AND PHONES AND THE LIKE.

AFTER THAT HAPPENED, PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME ALL THE WAY BACK DOWN TO WHERE BASICALLY A 30% TARIFF RATE ON TARIFF.

THAT TOLD BEIJING THAT THEY HAD FOUND A PRESSURE POINT THAT WORKS.

SO THEY RECYCLED THAT PRESSURE.

THEY BEGAN TO APPLY IT AGAIN AND AGAIN AND AGAIN IN ORDER TO BACK PRESIDENT TRUMP OFF FROM SOME OF HIS MORE AGGRESSIVE TRADE MOVES.

>> SO WHERE DOES THIS LEAVE THE UNITED STATES NOW IN TERMS OF RELATIVE STRENGTH VIS-A-VIS CHINA?

TWO SUPERPOWERS.

XI MAKES NO BONES ABOUT WANTING TO SURPASS THE UNITED STATES ON ALL FRONTS, ECONOMIC, MILITARY AND TRADE AND ALL THE REST.

YOU HAVE RECENTLY WRITTEN IN THE FREE PRESS THE SUMMIT WILL DETERMINE, QUOTE, WHETHER AMERICA WILL REMAIN A TECHNOLOGICAL SUPERPOWER OR IF XI GETS HIS WAY, BECOMES A CO MR MRMMUNE.

APPARENTLY, ACCORDING TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES," TRUMP DIDN'T RULE OUT THE POSSIBILITY OUT DURING THE SUMMIT, THE NVIDIA THING.

IT'S CRUCIAL TO THE DOMINANCE OF THE U.S., CORRECT?

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

IF PRESIDENT TRUMP HAD GIVEN INDICATIONS HE WAS TOYING WITH THE IDEA OF TALKING TO CHINA ABOUT SELLING THE MOST ADVANCED U.S.

AI CHIPS, THE NVIDIA B30A, BASICALLY AS GOOD -- IF YOU HAVE TWO, IT'S AS GOOD AS THE ADVANCED CHIP AMERICAN COMPANIES USE.

IT LOOKED LIKE PRESIDENT TRUMP MIGHT BE PUTTING THAT ON THE TABLE.

IN FACT, IT DOESN'T SEEM TO HAVE COME UP IN THE ACTUAL MEETING WITH XI JINPING.

I'M VERY GLAD THAT IT DIDN'T.

I'M GLAD THAT THERE WAS NO CONCESSION BY THE U.S.

ON THAT PART, BECAUSE THE IMPLICATIONS WOULD BE SO SEVERE.

WHEN I WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS IDEA THAT -- IF XI JINPING GETS HIS WAY, WE GO BACK TO BEING AN AGRERIAN COUNTRY.

IT WAS SOMETHING THE CHINESE LATE PREMIERE, THEN PREMIERE, LAID OUT FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP IN 2017.

I WAS STAFFING PRESIDENT TRUMP WHEN WE VISITED BEIJING IN 2017.

THE PREMIERE CAME OUT AND SAID, LOOK, HERE IS WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN IN THE NOT TOO DISTANT FUTURE.

CHINA WILL DOMINATE ALL TECHNOLOGY.

THE WORLD WILL BE MORE DEPENDENT ON CHINA.

CHINA WILL BEAT THE U.S.

AT AI.

THE UNITED STATES ISN'T GOING TO SELL ANYTHING EXCEPT CORN AND SOYBEANS WHEN CHINA IS HAPPY WITH HOW THE U.S.

IS BEHAVING.

IT WAS PSYCHOLOGICAL WARFARE TO SAY, WE'RE GOING TO WIN THE FUTURE.

YOU MIGHT AS WELL SURRENDER NOW.

THE THING IS, IF WE WERE TO ACTUALLY GIVE UP THE ADVANTAGES THAT WE STILL HAVE TECHNOLOGICALLY, INCLUDING IN AI, IT WOULD PUT US ON COURSE TO WHERE WE ARE PRETTY MUCH JUST TALKING SOYBEANS WITH CHINA.

WE BECOME INCREASINGLY DEPENDENT ON CHINA.

>> THAT I FIND INTERESTING AGAIN, IN THE CONTEXT OF A FOREIGN AFFAIRS ESSAY.

IT WAS TITLED "CHINA AGAINST CHINA," ARGUING THAT THERE'S A DIFFERENCE IN AMERICAN DIPLOMATS AND POLITICAL ANALYSTS' VIEW OF CHINA.

IS CHINA MORE RESILIENT THAN WASHINGTON GIVES IT CREDIT FOR?

IS CHINA A PAPER TIGER ON THE BRINK OF ECONOMIC PROBLEMS AND THIS AND THAT?

DO YOU FEEL THAT, THAT THERE'S A DIVISION -- >> YEAH.

>> TELL ME WHAT THAT WILL LEAD TO.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THERE'S TRUTH TO THIS.

WHEN YOU LOOK AT CHINA, YOU ALMOST HAVE TO HAVE A SPLIT SCREEN IN MIND.

BECAUSE TWO THINGS ARE TRUE SIMULTANEOUSLY.

ON THE ONE HAND, CHINA IS ACTUALLY ACHIEVING MANY OF ITS GOALS IN DOMINATING REALLY CRITICAL TECHNOLOGIES THIS CENTURY.

THEY DOMINATE US IN EV.

THEY DOMINATE US IN BATTERIES, SOLAR MANUFACTURING.

CHINA'S MANUFACTURING BASE IS NOW DOUBLE THAT OF THE UNITED STATES.

20 YEARS AGO, IT WAS THE OPPOSITE.

WE WERE DOUBLE CHINA.

ALL OF THOSE THINGS ARE REAL.

THAT'S NOT PAPER TIGER.

ON THE OTHER HAND, CHINA'S OVERALL ECONOMY IS NOT GOING TO BE CARRIED BY JUST REALLY -- BY MAKING EVs.

THE CONSUMER ECONOMY IS A SHAMBLES.

THE OVERALL ECONOMY PROBABLY IS NOT GROWING.

CHINA CLAIMS LOW TO MID SING MANY SINGLE DIGIT GROWTH.

A LOT OF ECONOMISTS THINK IT'S BECOMING A SMALLER ECONOMY IN GLOBAL TERMS AND RELATIVE TO THE UNITED STATES.

UNEMPLOYMENT IS OFF THE CHARTS.

MANY TIMES THEY DON'T EVEN REPORT SOME OF THEIR STATISTICS BECAUSE THEY'RE SO BAD.

BOTH THINGS ARE TRUE SIMULTANEOUSLY.

IT'S A CENTRALLY CONTROLLED ECONOMY THAT IS HAVING BIG SUCCESS IN THE AREAS THAT THEY ARE GROSSLY OVERSUB SIDIZING.

IF THE U.S.

DOESN'T LOSE ITS NERVE, I THINK THIS IS OUR RACE TO LOSE.

WE HAVE MORE NATURAL ADVANTAGES.

IT'S GOING TO BE A CLOSE-RUN THING.

>> IF THE U.S.

DOESN'T LOSE ITS ALLIANCES, BECAUSE THAT ALSO IS EXPONENTIAL POWER TO CONFRONT CHINA, AND IT HAS BEEN SAID TRUMP WITH ALL HIS TARIFFS AND DEMANDS AND DEMANDING HUNDREDS OF BILLIONS OF DOLLARS OF JAPANESE AND SOUTH KOREAN MONEY INVESTED IN THE U.S., DESTABLING THEIR ECONOMIES, HE IS ALIENATING WHO HE NEEDS TO BE TOUGH ON CHINA.

DO YOU THINK HE DID ENOUGH TO SHORE UP ALLIANCES?

>> I THINK THAT THERE'S -- WITH NO DOUBT, HIS APPROACH ON TARIFFS CREATES FRICTION WITH A LOT OF ALLIES.

AT THE SAME TIME, REMEMBER WHEN PRESIDENT TRUMP CAME BACK INTO OFFICE, A LOT OF PEOPLE WERE CONCERNED HE WAS GOING TO TAKE A HARD ISOLATIONIST BENT.

THAT'S NOT WHAT HAPPENED IN THE FIRST NINE MONTHS OR SO THAT HE HACK IN OFFICE.

HE WENT TO NATO IN JUNE AND LEFT BASICALLY EMBRACING -- RE-EMBRACING THE ORGANIZATION.

NATO ALLIES AGREED TO MORE THAN DOUBLE THEIR SPENDING AS A PERCENTAGE OF GDP OVER THE NEXT DECADE.

HE HAS NOT TURNED HIS BACK ON UKRAINE.

UKRAINE IS GETTING ACCESS TO U.S.

WEAPONS, AS LONG AS EUROPE IS PAYING FOR THEM.

THE MIDDLE EAST, WHEN PRESIDENT BIDEN CAME INTO OFFICE, ARAB GULF STATES WERE REALLY QUITE UPSET WITH THE APPROACH THAT HE WAS TAKING.

NOW I THINK THERE'S A MUCH HIGHER DEGREE OF COMFORT.

WE MIGHT SEE PRESIDENT TRUMP ACHIEVE A NEW ABRAHAM ACCORD SOMETIME IN HIS TERM GOING BEYOND THE THREE PEACE AGREEMENTS BETWEEN ISRAEL AND SUNI ARAB STATES.

BOTH THINGS CAN BE TRUE AS WELL.

THERE'S FRICTION IN THE RELATIONSHIP ON TRADE, BUT AT THE END OF THE DAY, THERE'S NO ONE, OTHER THAN THE UNITED STATES, THERE TO SERVE AS THE KEY GUARANTOR.

>> ANOTHER QUESTION THEN RELATED TO THIS BUT ALSO RELATED TO WHAT'S HAPPENING IN VENEZUELA.

THE ADMINISTRATION HAS DECIDED THAT THERE'S A WAR ON VENEZUELA.

AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER, THERE'S BEEN STRIKES ON THE BOATS.

IT IS OBVIOUSLY NON-DECLARED IN CONGRESS.

I WANTED TO ASK YOU WHAT YOU THINK.

IF CHINA IS THE BIG ISSUE, IT IS SAID THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DIPLOMAT -- I'M SORRY.

RICHARD GRUNNEL.

THEY WOULD EXPEL AND END ITS COOPERATION WITH CHINA, IRAN, CUBA, ALL THE COUNTRIES THAT AMERICA CONSIDERS SUSPECT.

THAT DIDN'T HAPPEN.

IT WENT FROM DIPLOMACY TO WAR.

IS THAT A MISSED OPPORTUNITY?

DO YOU THINK IT'S APPROPRIATE TO GO BELLIGERENT IN VENEZUELA?

>> YEAH, I DON'T THINK WE SHOULD BE -- WE HAVE TRIED SORT OF AN APPEASEMENT POLICY TOWARDS CHAVEZ AND MADURO.

I DON'T THINK IT TURNED OUT WELL FOR OUR FOREIGN POLICY AND DIDN'T TURN OUT WELL FOR THE VENEZUELAN PEOPLE.

THE ECONOMY WAS THE STRONGEST IN LATIN AMERICA.

IT HAS FALLEN 80% FROM WHERE IT WAS.

MILLIONS OF PEOPLE HAVE FLED VENEZUELA.

PRESIDENT TRUMP -- IT'S INTERESTING.

PRESIDENT TRUMP WHEN HE TALKS ABOUT DISTANT COUNTRIES, HE DOESN'T USUALLY TALK IN IDEOLOGICAL TERMS, COLD WAR TERMS.

WHEN HE IS TALKING ABOUT AMERICA'S -- THE CARIBBEAN, LATIN AMERICA, HE SOUNDS MUCH MORE LIKE A COLD WARRIOR.

HE GAVE A MAJOR ADDRESS IN 2020 WHERE HE TALKED ABOUT LOOKING FORWARD TO THE DAY WHEN CUBA, NICARAGUA AND VENEZUELA WOULD BE FREE COUNTRIES.

SO I THINK PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS PUSHED ASIDE THE IDEA OF SOME KIND OF A DETENTE.

THAT'S WHERE YOU SEE THE GUNBOAT DIPLOMACY.

WHETHER IT GOES FARTHER IS ANYBODY'S GUESS RIGHT NOW.

I THINK HE IS INTENT ON TRYING TO PRESSURE MADURO INTO STEPPING DOWN AND THEN RESTORING DEMOCRACY.

MADURO LOST -- >> OF COURSE.

>> BY SOMETHING LIKE 70% TO 30%.

THAT'S PROVEN.

THAT DOESN'T INCLUDE PEOPLE WHO FLED WHO WOULD HAVE VOTED AGAINST HIM.

HE OVERTURNED THE ELECTION ILLEGALLY.

I THINK THAT WE SHOULDN'T RULE OUT THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP MIGHT TAKE TOUGHER STEPS DOWN THE LINE.

>> TO YOUR POINT, WE HAVE HAD THE OPPOSITION LEADER, THE NOBEL PRIZE WINNER, TELL US THAT SHE BELIEVES THAT THAT ELECTION WOULD HAVE BEEN REGIME CHANGE HAD THE RESULTS BEEN RESPECTED, THAT THERE WOULDN'T BE MADURO AS PRESIDENT.

THAT SHE OR HER COLLEAGUES WOULD HAVE BEEN.

SHE SUPPORTS THAT ACTION BY THE U.S.

ADMINISTRATION.

MATT POTTINGER, THANK YOU.

WE WILL COME BACK TO YOU FOR MORE ANALYSIS OF THE ADMINISTRATION DOWN THE ROAD.

THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> GREAT.

TALK THEN.

>>> NEXT, TO NEW YORK AND THE MAYORAL RACE.

THE 34-YEAR-OLD DEMOCRATIC MOM KNEE ZOHRAN MAMDANI HAS A FOCUS ON AFFORDABLE AND A CHEERY PERSONAL OPTIMISM.

TAKING A PAGE OUT OF THE DEMOCRATIC SOCIALIST PLAYBOOK.

HE IS UP AGAINST THE ESTABLISHMENT FAVORITE, FORMER NEW YORK GOVERNOR ANDREW CUOMO, AS WELL AS REPUBLICAN NOMINEE AND LONGTIME GUARDIAN ANGEL, CURTIS SLIWA.

HIS RELATIVE INEXPERIENCE, HIS VIEWS ON ISRAEL AND THE WAR ON GAZA, HAVE MANY NEW YORKERS, INCLUDING IN THE JEWISH COMMUNITY, ETCH EXPRESSING FEA.

AT THE SAME TIME, HE HAS FACED ISLAMAPHOBIA AND RACISM.

HE REMAINS THE FRONTRUNNER.

WILL HE WIN?

IS THE WAY FORWARD FOR THE PARTY AS WELL?

FORMER U.S.

AMBASSADOR PATRICK GASPARD IS A CONFIDANTE.

HE JOINS ME NOW.

WELCOME TO OUR PROGRAM, AMBASSADOR.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME ON.

>> I SAY CLOSE CONFIDANTE.

YOU HAVE BEEN ADVISING MAMDANI.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU HAVE BEEN CAMPAIGNING.

WHAT DO YOU THINK?

IS HE GOING TO WIN?

YOU WILL SAY YES.

BUT LAST-MINUTE POLLS ARE SHOWING A SURGE BY CUOMO.

HOW DO YOU EVALUATE THE STATE?

>> WHENEVER I PERFORM ANY A NATURAL -- ANALYSIS I LOOK AT IS ENTHUSIASM.

IF YOU LOOK AT THIS, THOSE WHO ARE FOR MAMDANI ARE WILDLY ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT LIST CANDIDACY AND INTEND TO SHOW UP.

THOSE VOTING FOR SLIWA, WHO IS ON THE REPUBLICAN LINE, VERY ENTHUSIASTIC.

LOCKED INTO THEIR CONDITION.

ANDREW CUOMO'S SUPPORT IS TEPID.

HIS SUPPORTERS ARE MORE IN OPPOSITION TO ZOHRAN, NOT ALIGNED WITH CURTIS SLIWA, THAN ENTHUSIASTIC ABOUT ANDREW CUOMO.

I'M CONFIDENT THAT THE NEAR DOUBLE DIGIT LEADS WE ARE SEEING FOR ZOHRAN GOING INTO THE LAST DAYS OF THE ELECTION WILL HOLD AND HE WILL BE NEXT MAYOR OF NEW YORK.

>> AS SOMEONE WHO -- YOU WERE AN EARLY RIDER ON THE OBAMA TRAIN.

IF WE CAN PUT IT LIKE THAT.

DO YOU SEE SIMILARITIES BETWEEN BARACK OBAMA AND ZOHRAN MAMDANI?

>> HERE IS WHAT I SEE THAT I THINK CLOSES THE DAYLIGHT BETWEEN THAT GENERATION OF POLITICAL TALENT AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP.

THE FIRST TIME I EVER ENGAGED WITH BARACK OBAMA, HE WAS A STATE SENATOR RUNNING FOR U.S.

SENATE.

I FOUND MYSELF IN CONVERSATION WITH HIM.

VERY QUICKLY, I REALIZED THAT THIS WAS SOMEBODY WHO COULD TAKE COMPLICATED ISSUES AND MAKE THEM ACCESSIBLE TO AVERAGE VOTERS AND HE COULD TALK ABOUT THEM AS ASPIRATION.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI IS VERY SIMILAR.

CAN TAKE COMPLICATED ISSUES, BOIL THEM DOWN TO WHAT IS ABSOLUTELY ESSENTIAL, TALK ABOUT THEM IN VERY INVITING AND ACCESSIBLE WAYS.

HE IS AFFIRMING A VISION FOR THE FUTURE.

BILL CLINTON TOLD US THAT CAMPAIGNS AND ELECTIONS ARE NEVER ABOUT THE PAST.

THEY ARE ALWAYS ABOUT THE FUTURE.

IF YOU LOOK AT OBAMA, LOOK AT MAMDANI, THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT THE THING THAT'S YET POSSIBLE FOR US ALL, THE ASPIRATIONAL NORTH STAR.

SO MANY NEW YORKERS ARE FINDING THAT TO BE INSPIRATIONAL.

I WOULD SAY MANY DEMOCRATS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ARE PAYING ATTENTION TO THE NEW YORK RACE BECAUSE OF THE QUALITIES THAT ZOHRAN MAMDANI HAS.

>> PEOPLE SAY, NEW YORK CITY ESPECIALLY IS LIBERAL.

ACTUALLY, IT'S NOT NEW YORK WITH THE REST OF THE NATION.

THE REST OF THE NATION HAS NOT VOTED FOR PROGRESSIVE CANDIDATES, WHEN BERNIE SANDERS PRESENTED HIMSELF AS A PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE, THEY WENT CENTRIST WITH HILLARY CLINTON.

DO YOU THINK TIMES HAVE CHANGED?

IS MAMDANI, IF HE WINS, A SIGN OF THINGS TO COME FOR REALLY A DEMOCRATIC PARTY THAT APPEARS TO BE IN THE WILDERNESS RIGHT NOW, UNSURE HOW TO GET BACK ON ITS FEET?

>> I'M A PROUD NEW YORK NATIONALIST.

I LOVE MY CITY.

I THINK THAT SOMETIMES WE LEAN TOO HARD INTO THE NOTION OF OUR EXCEPTIONALISM.

IF YOU LOOK AT PERFORMANCE IN 2024, DONALD TRUMP SIGNIFICANTLY IMPROVED HIS PERFORMANCE IN NEW YORK BY 18 POINTS, CLOSED THE MARGIN BETWEEN DEMOCRATIC TRADITIONAL PERFORMANCE IN CITIES AND STATES LIKE NEW YORK AND REPUBLICAN PERFORMANCE.

WE HAVE SEEN EARLY ON IN THIS CONTEST RIGHT THROUGH THIS MOMENT THAT INDEPENDENTS, CENTRISTS, DEMOCRATS, EVEN CONSERVATIVE ONES, AND MANY, MANY PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP BECAUSE OF THE COST OF LIVING IN 2024, HAVE FOUND ZOHRAN MAMDANI'S EMPHASIS AND FOCUS ON WHAT IT MEANS TO HAVE AN INCLUSIVE ECONOMY TO BE COMPELLING.

THEY ARE SUPPORTING HIM IN VERY, VERY LARGE NUMBERS.

I THINK THERE IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE TAKEN FROM NEW YORK AND MODELLED IN OTHER CONTESTS ACROSS THE COUNTRY ON THIS ESSENTIAL QUESTION OF WHAT MATTERS TO PEOPLE.

THE VERY FIRST VIDEO THAT ZOHRAN HAD THAT WENT VIRAL WERE CONVERSATIONS THAT HE WAS HAVING, MAN ON THE STREET INTERVIEWS WITH PEOPLE WHO VOTED FOR DONALD TRUMP AND HE WAS CAUGHT DOING A THING DEMOCRATS DON'T DO OFTEN, HE WAS CAUGHT LISTENING TO THEM, UNDERSTANDING AND APPRECIATING WHY THEY SLIPPED AWAY AS WORKING CLASS VOTERS FROM DEMOCRATIC PARTY AND MODELLING WHAT IT MEANS TO TAKE THAT LISTENERSHIP AND MAKE IT ACTIONABLE IN A SET OF VERY SIMPLE POLICIES AND AN OVERALL STORY ABOUT WHO WE ARE THAT PEOPLE COULD LOCATE THEMSELVES IN.

THAT'S SOMETHING YOU CAN REPLICATE IN MAINE, IN NEBRASKA, IN FLORIDA.

>> IT'S INTERESTING, ARE SAYING TRUMP IS A MOVEMENT ON THAT SIDE AND MAMDANI IS THE NO.

.

>> I REMIND US THAT EVEN THOUGH THERE'S HANG WRINGING ABOUT THE DEMOCRATIC PARTY, BEFORE DONALD TRUMP STARTED DEFEATING DEMOCRATS, HE HAD TO WRESTLE DOWN MAIN STREET INSTITUTIONAL REPUBLICANS.

HE MOVED THAT PARTY AWAY FROM THE PARTY OF MITT ROMNEY.

DEMOCRATS ARE SEEN AS OUT OF TOUCH, ELITES WHO HAVE BEEN CAPTURED BY THEIR DONORS AND CORPORATE INTEREST.

YOU ARE GOING TO SEE, I BELIEVE, MORE AND MORE CANDIDATES LIKE ZOHRAN WHO ARE PUTTING EMPHASIS ON POCKETBOOK ISSUES THAT AMERICANS ACROSS SOCIAL AND ECONOMIC STRIPE CAN AGREE.

>> TALK ABOUT WRESTLING SUPPORT.

THE MOST SENIOR NEW YORK ELECTED OFFICIAL, SENATOR SCHUMER, HAS NOT THROWN HIS SUPPORT BEHIND ZOHRAN MAMDANI.

I WANT TO BRING OUT HIS INTERVIEW WITH JON STEWART.

THERE WAS A LOT OF HUMOR BUT A LOT OF VERY IMPORTANT POLICY TALK AS WELL.

THIS IS WHAT -- THEY HAD A SLIGHT INTERCHANGE ABOUT NOW YOU KNOW YOU ARE A FRONTRUNNER, BECAUSE ALL THE SLINGS AND AIR ARROWS ARE COMING AT YOU.

>> YOU ARE RIGHT NOW IN THE FRONTRUNNING POSITION.

I CAN TELL BECAUSE THEY HAVE GONE 9/11 ON YOU.

THAT'S CLEARLY A SIGN -- >> CLOSING ARGUMENT.

>> A CLOSING ARGUMENT.

9/11!

>> IT'S OBVIOUSLY PEOPLE -- THEY ARE REACTING TO WHAT'S BECOMING INCREASINGLY NEGATIVE TARGETING OF MAMDANI.

AN INCREASE IN UNFAVORABLE VIEWS OF HIM SLIGHTLY SINCE -- SLIGHTLY RIGHT NOW.

HE HAS TO CONVINCE NEW YORKERS AND PARTICULARLY JEWISH NEW YORKERS, RIGHT, THAT HE IS THEIR FRIEND AS WELL.

HE WOULD BE THE FIRST MUSLIM MAYOR.

IS NEW YORK READY FOR THAT?

>> YOU KNOW, AFTER THE PRIMARY VICTORY, I JOKED WITH ZOHRAN THAT HE WOULD SOON DISCOVER THAT WINNING WAS A LOT HARDER THAN LOSING.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI IS PREPARING TO GOVERN A CITY THAT SOME CONSIDER TO BE UNGOVERNABLE, THAT HAS MORE THAN 8 MILLION NEW YORKERS IN IT.

THERE ARE EQUAL NUMBER OF MUSLIM NEW YORKERS AS THERE ARE JEWISH NEW YORKERS.

HE IS SOMEBODY WHO MADE IT CLEAR THAT HE IS WILLING TO GO AND HAVE THE MOST DIFFICULT CONVERSATIONS IN SPACES WHERE PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY AGREE WITH HIM ON EVERY SINGLE ISSUE.

HE IS CONFIDENT THROUGH THAT, THE WORK OF PERSUASION AND ORGANIZING CAN CLOSE THAT GAP IN ORDER TO MAKE IT POSSIBLE TO ACHIEVE REALLY IMPORTANT THINGS ON AFFORDABILITY AND TO PUSH BACK AGAINST THE AUTHORITARIAN POLICY AGENDA THAT DONALD TRUMP HAS AGAINST NEW YORK AND CITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

I LAUGHED WHEN YOU SHOWED THAT CLIP.

BUT THAT'S NO LAUGHING MATTER TO SEE THE ISLAMAPHOBIA, BIGOTRY.

I'M CONFIDENT THAT NEW YORK IS ULTIMATELY BETTER THAN THAT.

A NEW TRUTH WILL WIN OUT.

LET'S BE CLEAR THAT THIS NEW YORK CONTEST, YOU MENTIONED INSTITUTIONAL DEMOCRATS WHO ARE NOT SUPPORTING ZOHRAN.

THIS NEW YORK CONTEST CLOSES THE FIREWALL BETWEEN DOMESTIC POLICY AND FOREIGN POLICY.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI'S VIEWS ON GAZA, HUMANITARIAN CRISIS THAT IS ONGOING THERE, HAS INFORMED A TRAJECTORY OF THIS CONTEST FOR THOSE FOR ZOHRAN AND THOSE WHO HAVE TREPIDATION ABOUT HIS CANDIDACY.

ACROSS THE BOARD, HIS CRITICS WOULD AGREE HIS MESSAGE AROUND WHAT WE HAVE TO DO TO BUILD INCLUSIVE OPPORTUNITIES IN OUR ECONOMY IS BREAKING THROUGH AND ONE THAT CAN BE A WINNING ONE FOR DEMOCRATS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

>> JUST TO FURTHER WHAT YOU WERE SAYING ABOUT VARIOUS GROUPS, HE HAS RESPONDED TO THE ISLAMAPHOBIA.

THERE WAS A BAD MOMENT IN THE CAMPAIGN WHEN GOVERNOR CUOMO WAS LAUGHING DURING A RADIO INTERVIEW, ALL THIS BUSINESS ABOUT 9/11.

THIS IS MAMDANI'S RESPONSE.

>> I WANT TO USE THIS MOMENT TO SPEAK TO THE MUSLIMS OF NEW YORK CITY.

I WANT TO SPEAK TO THE MEMORY OF MY AUNT WHO STOPPED TAKING THE SUBWAY AFTER SEPTEMBER 11th BECAUSE SHE DID NOT FEEL SAFE IN HER HIJAB.

I WANT TO SPEAK TO THE MUSLIM WHO WORKS FOR OUR CITY, WHETHER THEY TEACH IN OUR SCHOOLS OR WALK THE BEAT FOR THE NYPD, NEW YORKERS WHO MAKE DAILY SACRIFICES FOR THE CITY THEY CALL HOME, ONLY TO SEE THEIR LEADER SPIT IN THEIR FACE.

>> VERY BRIEFLY, WE HAVE ONLY GOT 30 SECONDS.

IT'S VERY EMOTIONAL.

IT WAS LAST WEEK IN THE CLOSING MOMENTS.

TAKING A PAGE OUT OF THE OBAMA PLAYBOOK, GOING STRAIGHT AT THE SMEARS AND ADDRESSING THE ISSUE HEAD ON.

THE RIGHT THING TO DO?

>> IT'S THE ONLY THING THAT YOU CAN DO IN THE MEDIA ECOSYSTEM WE ARE IN RIGHT NOW.

IF YOU DON'T ADDRESS AN ISSUE, OTHERS WILL FILL THE VACUUM IN A WEAR THAT MAKES A CHARACTER CAN A TUR.

IT'S REMINISCENT OF OBAMA.

THIS IS DIFFERENT IN THAT ZOHRAN EXPRESSED IT DIFFERENTLY.

THE RIGHT THING TO DO, BUT THE NECESSARY THING TO DO AT A TIME WHEN THE COMPOSITION OF OUR TOWN, OUR CITY IS CHANGING, OUR NATION IS CHANGING.

WE HAVE TO FIND WAYS TO BRIDGE THESE DIVIDES.

YOU GO HEAD ON INTO THE MOST UNCOMFORTABLE SPACES AND HELPING FOLKS EXTEND GRACE TO ONE ANOTHER.

ZOHRAN MAMDANI IS EXCEPT THAT.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR BEING WITH US.

>>> NEXT, YOU CAN SEE THE BLOOD FROM SPACE.

SUDANESE REBELS HAVE CAPTURED THE SEE CITY OF EL -FASHEREL-FA.

IMAGES REVEAL THE HORROR.

PILES OF BODIES AND POOLS OF RED.

THE REBEL COMMANDER HAS HAD TO APOLOGIZE AND PROMISE AN INQUIRY AFTER HIS PARAMILITARY RAPID SUPPORT FORCES STORMED EL-FASHER AFTER MORE THAN A YEAR-LONG SIEGE.

150,000 PEOPLE HAVE BEEN KILLED IN THIS CONFLICT.

14 MILLION ARE DISPLACED FROM THEIR HOMES.

IN THE BATTLE BETWEEN THE RSF AND THE SUDANESE ARMED FORCES.

SOME AMERICAN SENATORS ARE PUSHING TRUMP TO LABEL THE RSF A TERRORIST GROUP.

NADA BASHIR HAS THIS REPORT.

A WARNING, THE DETAILS ARE DISTURBING.

>> Reporter: WITH EACH PASSING DAY, MORE HARROWING VIDEOS EMERGE FROM EL-FASHER.

IN THE WAKE OF THE ARE TREAT OF THE SUDAN HE'S ARMED FORCES AND A VIOLENT TAKEOVER BY THE PARAMILITARY RAPID SUPPORT FORCES, CIVILIANS IN THE CITY HAVE FACED ATROCITIES ON AN UNTHINKABLE SCALE.

SOME OF THE FOOTAGE WE HAVE OBTAINED IS SIMPLY TOO GRAPHIC FOR CNN TO BROADCAST.

CIVILIANS GUNNED DOWN AS THEY ATTEMPT TO FLEE.

BODIES STREWN ON THE GROUND, LYING IN POOLS OF BLOOD.

FILMED BY RSF FIGHTERS.

IN THIS VIDEO, TWO MEN ARE STOPPED BY AN RSF VEHICLE.

WITHIN SECONDS, ONE OF THEM IS SHOT.

THE OTHER IS HEARD PLEADING WITH THE SOLDIERS.

MOMENTS LATER, WE HEAR ANOTHER GUNSHOT.

THE CAMERA PANS BACK AROUND.

THE MAN IS SEEN LYING MOTIONLESS ON THE GROUND.

>> WE HAVE RECEIVED CREDIBLE REPORTS OF EXECUTIONS, OF UNARMED MEN LYING ON THE GROUND BEING SHOT AND OF CIVILIANS AS THEY TRY AND FLEE THE CITY.

THERE ARE STILL CIVILIANS WHO REMAIN IN EL-FASHER.

WE'RE NOT SURE HOW MANY.

COULD BE 120,000, COULD BE MORE THAN THAT.

>> Reporter: THE SCALE OF THE ATTACKS ARE SUCH THAT EVIDENCE OF THE ATROCITIES ARE NOW VISIBLE FROM SPACE.

WITH INDICATORS OF BODIES AND WHAT APPEAR TO BE LARGE BLOOD STAINS, DETECTED BY EXPERTS AT THE YALE HUMANITARIAN RESEARCH LAB.

IMAGERY OF THE HOSPITAL, CLUSTERS OF WHITE OBJECTS CONSISTENT WITH THE SIZE AND SHAPE OF BODIES APPEAR TO REFLECT REPORTS OF MASS KILLINGS IN THE AREA.

AS DOCUMENTED BY THE SUDAN DOCTORS NETWORK WHICH CLAIMS THE RSF COLD-BLOODEDLY KILLED EVERYONE THEY FOUND INSIDE THE HOSPITAL, TURNING IT INTO A HUMAN SLAUGHTERHOUSE.

THE RSF DESCRIBED THE CLAIMS AS BASELESS.

BUT ACCORDING TO THE U.N., NEARLY 500 PEOPLE WERE KILLED IN THE ASSAULT.

>> WE HAVE SEEN OVER THE PAST 48 TO 72 HOURS, THE PROLIFERATION OF OBJECTS ACROSS EL-FASHER CONSISTENT WITH HUMAN BODIES TO THE POINT WHERE WE CAN SEE PILES OF BODIES ACROSS THE CITY FROM SPACE.

THEY ARE MOVING NEIGHBORHOOD TO NEIGHBORHOOD.

THEY ARE SYSTEMATICALLY WIPING OUT THOSE THEY FIND THAT REMAINED.

>> Reporter: MANY REMAIN TRAPPED, THOUSANDS HAVE FLED THE VIOLENCE ON FOOT IN SEARCH OF SAFETY.

THE ACCOUNTS OF THOSE WHO SURVIVED THE JOURNEY ARE DISTRESSING.

>> Translator: THEY HARASS THE PEOPLE.

THEY SEPARATED YOUNG MEN FROM WOMEN.

I DON'T KNOW WHERE THEY TOOK THE MEN.

>> Translator: THERE HAVE BEEN MANY TRAGEDIES.

MEN AND WOMEN HAVE BEEN KILLED.

WE HOPE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY WILL STAND WITH US.

>> Reporter: THE LEADERS OF BOTH THE RSF AND THE SUDANESE ARMED FORCES HAVE FACED WESTERN SANCTIONS DUE TO THEIR INVOLVEMENT IN ALLEGED WAR CRIMES.

U.N.

OFFICIALS SAY THE RSF HAS DISPLAYED A PATTERN OF SYSTEMATIC AND OFTEN ETHNICALLY MOTIVATED ATTACKS ON A LARGE SCALE.

ACCORDING TO A REPORT PRESENTED TO THE U.N.

BY A PANEL OF EXPERTS, THE RSF AND ITS ALLIED ILITIAS HAVE RECEIVED SUPPORT FROM THE UAE IN THE FORM OF WEAPONS.

THE UAE DENIED BACKING THE PARAMILITARY GROUP.

THE RSF HAS BEEN ACCUSED BY THE UNITED STATES OF COMMITTING A GENOCIDE DURING THE ONGOING CIVIL WAR.

THE PARAMILITARY GROUP HAS ACKNOWLEDGED WHAT THEY HAVE DESCRIBED AS VIOLATIONS IN EL-FASHER.

ITS LEADER SAYING IN A STATEMENT THAT AN INVESTIGATION WILL BE CARRIED OUT TO HOLD THOSE RESPONSIBLE FOR CRIMINAL ACTS ACCOUNTABLE.

IN A DIRECTIVE ISSUED TO ITS FIGHTERS, RSF LEADERS ALSO CALLED ON ALL PERSONNEL TO ADHERE TO RULES OF CONDUCT AND TO ENSURE THE PROTECTION OF CIVILIANS.

EVIDENCE ON THE GROUND, HOWEVER, TELLS A VERY DIFFERENT STORY.

>> THE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES HAVE SURROUNDED THIS CITY IN AN EARTH WALL CALLED A BERM.

THAT'S AS HIGH AS NINE FEET.

THEY ARE INSIDE A KILL BOX.

THEY HAVE BEEN WALLED IN TO BE KILLED SYSTEMATICALLY.

>> Reporter: THE FALL COULD MARK A DANGEROUS TURNING POINT IN THE CONFLICT, ALLOWING THE PARAMILITARY GROUP TO CONSOLIDATE AND STRENGTHEN ITS GRIP ON THE BROADER REGION.

ALL THE WHILE, PUTTING CIVILIAN LIVES AT GREATER RISK OF VIOLENCE, PERSECUTION AND WHAT AID GROUPS ARE ALREADY CALLING A HUMANITARIAN CATASTROPHE.

>> IF I WERE TO POSE A QUESTION ABOUT SIGNIFICANT FIGURES IN RUSSIAN HISTORY, WHO WOULD SPRING TO MIND?

YOU MIGHT THINK OF WELL-KNOWN LEADERS LIKE LENIN, STALIN OR PRESIDENT PUTIN.

HOW MANY OF YOU COULD NAME THE WOMEN WHO STOOD ALONGSIDE THEM?

A NEW BOOK WRITTEN BY OUR NEXT GUEST, JULIAIOFFE, PLACES THEIR REMARKABLE STORIES IN THE SPOTLIGHT.

SHE JOINS MICHEL MARTIN TO DISCUSS RUSSIA'S COMPLEX HISTORY OF MOTHERHOOD, MARRIAGE AND MUCH MORE.

>> THANKS.

JULIA, THANK YOU FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK "MOTHERLAND" IS SO INTERESTING.

IT TAKES -- IT LOOKS THROUGH MODERN RUSSIAN HISTORY, SOVIET AND RUSSIAN HISTORY, BUT THROUGH THE LENS OF THE WOMEN.

HOW DID YOU GET THE IDEA TO DO THAT?

>> WELL, THE FIRST GERM OF THE IDEA WAS TO WRITE A BOOK THAT WASN'T ABOUT VLADIMIR PUTIN.

I WAS TIRED OF TALKING ABOUT HIM, WRITING ABOUT HIM, THINKING ABOUT HIM.

I WANTED TO WRITE A BOOK ABOUT RUSSIA THAT INCUMBENT ABOUT HIM.

I WANTED IT TO NOT BE ABOUT MOST OF THE MEN THAT WE READ SO MUCH ABOUT.

LENIN, STALIN, KHRUSHCHEV.

THE OTHER PART WAS I WAS HAVING TO EXPLAIN TO AMERICAN FRIENDS, TO WESTERN FRIENDS WHY IT WAS SO NORMAL FOR WOMEN LIKE MY GREAT GRANDMOTHER TO BE DOCTORS AND SCIENTISTS IN THE 1930s.

SOMETHING THAT SEEMED EXTRAORDINARY TO THEM WAS TOTALLY ORDINARY TO ME.

TO BRIDGE THAT GAP, I REALIZED I HAD TO TELL THE STORY OF THE WHOLE THING.

>> YOU WRITE ABOUT THIS EXTRAORDINARY SOCIAL REVOLUTION THAT FOLLOWED 1917.

SOVIET WOMEN WERE GIVEN THE RIGHT TO HIGHER EDUCATION, EQUAL PAY, NO-FAULT CIVIL DIVORCE, CHILD SUPPORT, INCLUDING FOR CHILDREN BORN OUT OF WEDLOCK, PAID MATERNITY LEAVE AND ACCESS TO FREE MATERNITY HOSPITALS.

AND IN 1920, THE SOVIET UNION LEGALIZED ABORTION.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WELL, THE NEW SOVIET AUTHORITIES WANTED TO MANCIPATE WOMEN.

IT WAS PART OF THE PROJECT TO REMAKE SOCIETY, STARTING FROM THE INDIVIDUAL.

TO REMAKE A SOVIET PERSON.

IF YOU THINK ABOUT WHERE THEY WERE COMING FROM IN THE 19th CENTURY, WOMEN MARRIED MOSTLY FOR ECONOMIC REASONS.

RIGHT?

THEY WENT FROM THEIR FATHER'S HOUSE TO THEIR HUSBAND'S HOUSE.

IT WAS IMPOSSIBLE TO GET OUT OF THAT DIVORCE -- EXCUSE ME, OUT OF THAT MARRIAGE.

EVEN IF THERE WAS ABUSE OR CHEATING OR SHE DIDN'T WANT TO BE MARRIED TO HIM ANYMORE.

THERE WAS NOWHERE TO GO.

WOMEN WERE EXPECTED TO -- WORKING CLASS WOMEN WERE EXPECTED TO WORK THROUGH THEIR PREGNANCY AND COME RIGHT BACK RIGHT AFTER GIVING BIRTH.

RIGHT?

YOU DON'T EVEN HAVE TO THINK ABOUT THE 19th CENTURY.

WE'RE STILL FIGHTING FOR THESE RIGHTS HERE TODAY, 100 YEARS LATER.

>> I DIDN'T KNOW SOME OF THE NAMES.

EVERYBODY KNOWS LENIN.

WHO WAS ALEKSANDRA COLENTI?

WHO WAS SHE?

TELL US WHY SHE WAS SUCH AN IMPORTANT FIGURE.

>> SHE WAS -- SHE BECAME AN ALLY OF LENIN.

SHE VOTED WITH HIM IN THE COMMITTEE TO SEIZE POWER IN OCTOBER 1917 FOR WHICH SHE WAS REWARDED WITH A CABINET MINISTERIAL POST.

SHE BECAME THE FIRST FEMALE CABINET MINISTER IN HISTORY.

SHE WAS A WRITER AND A THINKER THAT FLESHED OUT THE IDEA OF HOW TO EMANCIPATE WOMEN SPECIFICALLY.

MOST OF THE MEN WROTE ABOUT HOW TO GET RID OF CAB PITALISM AND PRIVATE PROPERTY AND THIS WOULD EMANCIPATE EVERYONE.

SHE SAID, NO, WOMEN HAVE SPECIFIC NEEDS.

SHE WROTE THAT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING FOR A WOMAN, THE THING THAT GAVE HER MEANING IN LIFE AND GAVE HER PURPOSE ON THIS EARTH WASN'T GETTING MARRIED, WASN'T HAVING CHILDREN, BUT HER OWN WORK, HER OWN CREATIVE LABOR.

SHE COULD GET MARRIED IF SHE WANTED TO.

SHE COULD NOT.

SHE COULD HAVE A FLING OR AN AFFAIR TO DRINK FROM THE CUP OF LOVE UNTIL SHE WAS SATED AND GET BACK TO WORK.

SHE WROTE THAT IN 1913.

I THINK THAT IS STILL A VERY CONTROVERSIAL AND RADICAL STATEMENT TODAY.

>> I WAS FASCINATED BY GORBACHEV.

A LOT OF AMERICANS HAD SEEN HER BECAUSE SHE TRAVELED HERE WITH HER HUSBAND.

TALK ABOUT HER.

>> SHE DIDN'T FIT IN AT HOME.

SOVIETS HATED HER.

SHE WAS -- THEY DIDN'T LIKE THAT SHE WAS SO INDEPENDENT.

THEY DIDN'T LIKE THAT SHE WAS ONE OF HER HUSBAND'S CLOSEST ADVISORS.

SHE WAS WITH HIM ON FOREIGN TRIPS.

IT WAS JARRING FOR SOVIETS TO SEE HER WHEN THEY HAD BEEN USED FOR DECADES TO SEEING ONLY OLD MALE FACES AT THE TOP.

SHE WAS STYLISH.

KIND OF RUNNING AROUND THE WORLD AT A TIME WHEN SOVIET WOMEN COULDN'T FIND CLOTHES OR FOOD TO EAT, MENSTRUAL PRODUCTS, BRAS.

THEY GAVE BIRTH IN FILTHY MATERNITY HOSPITALS THAT WERE HORRIFIC.

THEY COULDN'T TRAVEL ABROAD THE WAY SHE DID.

SHE ENCHANTED A LOT OF PEOPLE IN THE WEST, INCLUDING AMERICAN FEMINISTS WHO SAID, LOOK AT HER.

SHE'S THIS AMAZING WORKING WOMAN WHO HAS IT ALL.

SHE'S A WIFE, A MOTHER, A GRANDMOTHER AS WELL AS A COLLEGE PROFESSOR.

A Ph.D.. SHE'S SO FEMININE, HOW DOES SHE DO IT?

SOVIETS WERE LIKE, OUR LIVES LOOK -- SOVIET WOMEN WERE LIKE, WE HATE HER FOR RUBBING IT IN OUR FACES.

>> WE GET TO PUTIN.

I KNOW YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T WANT THE BOOK TO BE ABOUT PUTIN.

IT'S NOT.

HE DOES TAKE UP A LOT OF SPACE.

THAT WAS ONE OF THE MOST DEPRESSING CHAPTERS.

THEY DATED FOR YEARS BEFORE THEY ACTUALLY MARRIED, WHICH SUN USUAL AT THE TIME.

HE KIND OF MADE IT CLEAR THAT, YOU KNOW, SHE WAS THERE TO KIND OF BE HIS ADMINISTRATIVE OFFICER AND RAISE THE KIDS AND DO WHATEVER.

DIDN'T GIVE HER ANY SUPPORT OR AFFECTION, FROM WHAT WE SEE, AT ALL.

TELL ME A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HER.

>> SHE'S DONE OKAY.

SHE'S MARRIED A MAN TEN YEARS HER JUNIOR.

FOR HER SILENCE SHE HAS GOTTEN LOTS OF MONEY.

SHE HAS MENTIONED ALL OVER EUROPE.

SHE'S DOING FINE.

>> OKAY.

>> SHE WAS BORN IN AN OUTCROPPING OF RUSH SLA SIA IN MIDDLE OF EUROPE.

SHE HAD AN ALCOHOLIC FATHER.

SHE LIVED IN A COMMUNAL APARTMENT.

SHE DROPPED OUT OF TECHNICAL COLLEGE AND BECAME A FLIGHT ATTENDANT.

SHE MET VLADIMIR PUTIN WHEN THEY WERE IN THEIR EARLY 20s.

SHE AT FIRST THOUGHT HE WAS UNREMARKABLE.

THEN SHE CAME TO ADMIRE HIM BECAUSE HE WAS SO UNLIKE OTHER MEN THEIR AGE.

HE DIDN'T DRINK.

HE WAS PHYSICALLY FIT.

HE WAS DISCIPLINED.

HE WAS FOCUSED.

HE WAS DECISIVE.

IN A GENERATION THAT WAS BORN AFTER WORLD WAR II WHEN THERE WEREN'T A LOT OF MEN AROUND AND THE MEN THAT WERE AROUND WERE BROKEN PSYCHOLOGICALLY, ALCOHOLIC.

ALCOHOLISM TOOK OFF LIKE CRAZY AFTER WORLD WAR II BECAUSE OF ALL THE TRAUMA PEOPLE SUFFERED.

HE JUST STRUCK SUCH A CONTRAST THAT SHE WAS LIKE, THIS IS A REAL MAN.

I WANT TO CEDE SOME OF THE RESPONSIBILITIES THAT RUSSIAN WOMEN HAVE.

SO WHEN HE STARTS MAKING EVERY SINGLE DECISION FOR THEM AND SHE HAS ABSOLUTELY NO AGENCY IN THE RELATIONSHIP, SHE REALLY FINDS IT COMFORTING AND REASSURING, BECAUSE SHE DOESN'T FEEL LIKE SHE'S CARRYING EVERYTHING.

THEN, OF COURSE, QUICKLY ONCE THEY ACTUALLY DO GET MARRIED, AFTER HE STRINGS HER ALONG FOR THREE YEARS, ONCE THEY HAVE KIDS, SHE REALIZES, IT'S ALL COMPLETELY ON HER.

>> THE MOST DISTURBING STORY IS SHE WAS IN A CAR ACCIDENT, AND WAKES UP IN THE HOSPITAL, AND -- >> SURE.

VLADIMIR PUTIN IS CALLED.

HE IS THE SECOND MAN IN THE CITY.

THIS IS POST-COMMUNIST ST.

PUTERS PETERSBURG.

SHE'S GOING TO BE FINE.

HE SAYS, OKAY, AND LEAVES WITHOUT SEEING HER, WHICH IS INCREDIBLE.

IN THE WORST WAY.

TO ME, IT WAS SO HIM.

RIGHT?

IT WAS BEFORE HE WAS REALLY IN THE PUBLIC EYE.

THE KIND OF -- THE COLDNESS, THE CRUELNESS, THE WITHHOLDING OF WARMTH AND AFFECTION.

THE LITTLE THINGS WE SEE HIM DO, THESE POWER PLAYS, LIKE WHEN HE MADE THE POPE WAIT 45 MINUTES.

HE WAS LATE TO EVERY DATE ABOUT AN HOUR AND A HALF.

SHE STILL CAME BACK FOR MORE.

>> WHY DID SHE PUT UP WITH THIS?

>> BECAUSE MEN WERE SO SCARCE AFTER THE WAR.

THIS REALLY TRAUMATIZED RUSSIAN WOMEN WHO WERE ALSO BEING TOLD THAT THEY HAVE TO GET MARRIED YOUNG AND HAVE CHILDREN YOUNG, BECAUSE THE SOVIET GOVERNMENT STARTED TELLING THEM THIS BECAUSE THEY NEEDED TO REPLACE ALL THE PEOPLE THEY HAD KILLED.

ABOUT 50 MILLION PEOPLE THAT WERE KILLED IN 30 YEARS.

SO THERE WAS THIS OBVIOUS ABSENCE OF MEN -- OF ELIGIBLE MEN TO MARRY.

IT WAS JUST LIKE, I WILL TAKE HIM.

>> LET'S GO TO THE PRESENT DAY.

YOU WRITE, 100 YEARS AFTER KOLLANTAI AND LENIN RAILED, IT HAD BECOME THEIR ULTIMATE FANTASY.

THE EVIDENCE IS IN OTHER CHAPTERS IN THE BOOK WHERE YOU TALK ABOUT THESE WIVES OF OLIGARCHS, FORMER WIVES OF OLIGARCHS AND THIS MAD -- I DON'T KNOW WHAT TO CALL IT.

"HINGER "HUNGER GAMES" MATCH FOR THESE MEN.

HOW DID THAT HAPPEN?

>> WHAT HAPPENED IS THE SOVIET GOVERNMENT IN FIGHTING -- WELL, FIGHTING PART OF ONE WORLD WAR AND ALL OF A SECOND WORLD WAR, CIVIL WAR, HAVING FAMINE AND PUTTING DOWN PEASANT REBELLIONS AND MASS POLITICAL REPRESSIONS, KILLED A LOT, A LOT OF MEN.

BY THE END OF 1945, THERE WERE SO FEW MEN IN SOME PLACES THAT THERE WOULD BE 19 OF THEM FOR EVERY 100 WOMEN.

AT THE SAME TIME, THE SOVIET UNION WANTED A BABY BOOM, THE KIND THAT THE U.S.

WAS HAVING.

THEY NEEDED TO, AS THEY SAID, REPLACE THE DEAD.

THERE WERE VILLAGES IN RUSSIA WHERE ONLY ONE MAN CAME BACK FROM THE WAR.

HIS WIFE WOULD PASS HER HUSBAND AROUND SO THAT THE OTHER WOMEN IN THE VILLAGE COULD BECOME MOTHERS AS WELL.

THIS COMBINATION OF THE STATE TELLING WOMEN THEY NEED TO BECOME MOTHERS, THAT THIS IS THEIR -- THAT THEIR MAIN ROLE IN LIFE, THEIR SOLE PURPOSE WAS TO BECOME MOTHERS, WHEN THERE WERE SO FEW MEN AROUND, HOW DO YOU DO THAT?

IT CREATES THIS MISMATCH BETWEEN SUPPLY AND DEMAND.

>> YOU ALSO WRITE ABOUT THE CONNECTION TO THE WAY WEALTH IS ACHIEVED IN RUSSIA AND JUST THE WHOLE -- THE TREMENDOUS SORT OF ECONOMIC DISLOCATIONS THAT HAVE OCCURRED SINCE THE FALL OF COMMUNISM.

WHICH ARE TWO DIFFERENT STORIES BUT KIND OF RELATED.

TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT THAT.

THE DRINKING.

IT DOESN'T COME FROM NOWHERE.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

BASICALLY, WHEN THE SOVIET UNION COLLAPSED IN 1991, WITH IT COLLAPSED THE TEETERING SOVIET ECONOMY.

FACTORIES CLOSED.

MINES CLOSED.

PARTS OF THE SOVIET GOVERNMENT CLOSED.

MEN AND WOMEN RESPONDED VERY DIFFERENTLY.

MEN SAID, YOU KNOW, I WAS A FACTORY FORMAN OR I WAS AN ENGINEER.

I WILL NOT DO LOWER STATUS WORK.

I WILL BE SAD AND COMPLAIN AND WAIT FOR WORK OF MY STATUS, OF MY STATION TO COME BACK ONLINE.

THE WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE THAT OPTION.

THEY TOOK TO DRINK BECAUSE THEY WERE DEPRESSED AND STRESSED OUT.

THE WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE THAT OPTION, BECAUSE FOR THE LAST 50 YEARS, PARENTHOOD HAD BECOME MOTHERHOOD.

MOTHERHOOD BECAME ALL OF PARENTHOOD.

FATHERS WEREN'T EXPECTED TO FATHER THEIR CHILDREN AND PARENT THEM IN ANY WAY.

WOMEN DIDN'T HAVE THIS OPTION.

THEY HAD TO WORK REALLY HARD, WASH FLOORS, TAKE RAGS TO SELL IN MARKETS, CHOP CHICKEN PARTS TO KEEP THEIR FAMILIES FED WHILE THE MEN LAID DOWN, TOOK TO DRINK AND DRANK THEMSELVES TO DEATH, WHICH AGAIN EXACERBATED THERE PERCEIVED SHORTAGE OF MEN.

AT THE SAME TIME, THERE WAS THIS NEW OLIGARCHIC CLASS COMING INTO BEING.

THEY WERE ALL MEN.

THEY HAD SUCH FANTASTICAL WEALTH THAT -- PLUS ALL THE IMAGERY COMING IN FROM THE WEST, THERE WAS THIS IDEA OF, WOULDN'T IT BE WILD AND AMAZING TO BE A STAY AT HOME WIFE AND A MOM?

INSTEAD OF BEING A SOVIET WOMAN WHO HAS TO WORK FULL-TIME, THEN DO SEVEN HOURS OF HOUSEWORK PER DAY, AND TAKE CARE OF THE KIDS FULL-TIME, WHILE THE MAN JUST MAYBE WORKS, THE IDEA WAS, CAN I JUST BE A MOM?

>> PICTURES OF PUTIN SHIRTLESS ON HORSEBACK OR FISHING OR PLAYING HOCKEY, WHERE MAGICALLY HE SCORES ALL THE GOALS.

IN THE WEST, WE THINK THIS IS HILARIOUS.

WHAT IS THIS?

WHAT'S THIS GUY?

YOU WERE SAYING THAT IN RUSSIA, THIS IS ACTUALLY PART OF HIS ALLURE.

IT'S DIRECTED AT THE WOMEN.

>> YES.

>> THE WOMEN FIND THIS COMFORTING IN A WAY?

SAY MORE ABOUT THAT.

>> YES.

BECAUSE RUSSIAN MEN ARE SEEN AS SO USELESS AS THESE KIND OF OVERGROWN MAN CHILDREN THAT THE WOMEN HAVE TO TAKE CARE OF IN ADDITION TO THEIR ACTUAL CHILDREN, THEY CAN'T BE TRUSTED WITH THE MONEY, THEY EARN MORE THAN THE WOMEN BUT, YOU KNOW, CAN THEY BE TRUSTED TO BRING IT HOME?

CAN THEY BE TRUSTED NOT TO DRINK THROUGH EVERYTHING, NOT TO GET INTO A CRAZY CAR ACCIDENT OR JUST DROP DEAD AT WORK?

MEN DIE -- RUSSIAN MEN DIE SO MUCH YOUNGER THAN RUSSIAN WOMEN.

THEY ARE IN TERRIBLE HEALTH IN SUCH TERRIBLE SHAPE.

THEY MOKE, DRINK, EAT A LOT OF MAYONNAISE SALADS.

PUTIN IS NOT THAT.

HE DOESN'T DRINK.

HE EXERCISES REGULARLY.

ON CAMERA, HE MAKES SURE PEOPLE SEE IT.

HE MAKES SURE TO SHOW PEOPLE HOW DISCIPLINED HE IS, HOW MUCH LONGER HE HAS LIVED THAN THE AVERAGE RUSSIAN MAN.

FOR A LOT OF RUSSIAN WOMEN, HE IS THE MAN THEY NEVER HAD.

THE MAN THEY WISH THEY HAD.

WHICH GOES BACK TO YOUR QUESTION ABOUT WHY DID SHE STICK WITH HIM?

YEAH, HE WAS MAYBE NOT THE NICEST PARTNER.

BUT AT LEAST HE WAS THERE AND HE HAD THIS KIND OF TRADITIONAL ENERGETIC IMAGE WHEREAS THE AVERAGE RUSSIAN MAN IS SEEN AS THIS DRUNKEN CHILDISH SLOB.

>> I DOUBT THAT "MOTHERLAND" IS GOING TO BE A BEST SELLER IN RUSSIA.

I DON'T KNOW WE WILL SEEING TOO MANY COPIES IN THE AIRPORT BOOKSTORE.

I'M WONDERING WHAT ARE PEOPLE SAYING ABOUT IT?

>> THE REACTION I'M GETTING FROM RUSSIANS IS VERY -- ACTUALLY, VERY POSITIVE.

A LOT OF THEM -- THE ONES THAT WERE ABLE TO READ IT IN ENGLISH DIDN'T KNOW A LOT OF THIS HISTORY.

I DIDN'T KNOW MOST OF THIS HISTORY.

IT'S NOT TAUGHT.

WHAT RUSSIANS ARE TAUGHT, WHAT I WAS TAUGHT STUDYING SOVIET AND RUSSIAN HISTORY HERE IN THE U.S.

IS A VERY MALE CENTRIC HISTORY.

I DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT ALEKSANDRA UNTIL I STARTED RESEARCHING THIS BOOK.

A LOT OF -- I KEPT GIVING CHAPTERS TO MY PARENTS TO READ TO ASK THEM OR TO OTHER FRIENDS FROM THE RUSSIA SPHERE TO READ.

DID YOU KNOW ANY OF THIS?

AM I JUST REPEATING SOMETHING EVERYBODY ELSE HAS SAID?

MOST PEOPLE DIDN'T KNOW ANY OF THIS.

PEOPLE ARE PLEASANTLY SURPRISED AND HAVE FOUND IT ILLUMINATING.

WE ARE WORKING ON GETTING IT TRANSLATED INTO RUSSIAN.

SO AT LEAST IT CAN GET INTO THE COUNTRY DIGITALLY.

I HAVE A FRIEND WHO RUNS A PUBLISHING HOUSE IN RUSSIA.

SHE SAID, THERE'S NO WAY WITH THE WORD FEMINIST.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE WAY PUTIN IS PORTRAYED BUT BECAUSE IT HAS FEMINIST ON THE COVER.

WHEN SUSAN SONTAG'S BOOKS ARE SEIZED, THERE'S NO WAY.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

>> FASCINATING READ.

>>> FINALLY, CHILDREN'S ENTERTAINER MISS RACHEL, SHE'S WOMAN OF THE YEAR.

SHE BECAME AN INTERNET SENSATION DURING THE PANDEMIC, AFTER POSTING EDUCATIONAL VIDEOS FOR TODDLERS ON YOUTUBE.

GAINING HER 13 BILLION VIEWS.

MOST RECENTLY, IT IS HER ACTIVISM AND SPEAKING ABOUT GAZA THAT HAS GARNERED INTERNATIONAL ATTENTION AND ACCOLADES SUCH AS THIS.

BEFORE THIS AWARD, I HAD ASKED RACHEL WHAT DRIVES HER ADVOCACY.

>> SOMETIMES YOU GET REALLY FRUSTRATED BECAUSE IT FEELS LIKE YOU ARE IN A NIGHTMARE SAYING, 18,000 KIDS HAVE BEEN KILLED.

THE HIGHEST COHORT OF AMPUTEES IN MODERN HISTORY.

YOU JUST TRY SO HARD TO GET PEOPLE TO MOVE.

SO I WAS FRUSTRATED.

I HAVE TO HOLD ON TO HOPE FOR THEM.

THERE WAS A BEAUTIFUL QUOTE I READ ABOUT LOU WE NEED TO HOLD ON TO HOPE FOR CHILDREN OF THE WORLD.

>> YOU QUOTE FIGURES -- >> I WILL SAY -- >> THE U.N.

IS QUOTING AS WELL, CARRY ON.

>> SO SORRY.

I WILL SAY THAT I ALSO THINK A LOT ABOUT CHILD DEVELOPMENT BEING AN EXPERT IN THAT AREA.

0 TO 3, THE BRAIN, IT'S A CRITICAL TIME.

IF YOU ARE EXPOSING CHILDREN TO TRAUMA AND MALNUTRITION DURING THAT TIME IT CAN HAVE AFFECTS FOR A LIFETIME.

I'M THINKING ABOUT THE LITTLE ONES WHO AREN'T GETTING THAT CHANCE.

DON'T WE AS GROWN-UPS IN THIS WORLD HAVE A RESPONSIBILITY TO GIVE ALL CHILDREN THAT CHANCE?

I DON'T BELIEVE THAT THAT DEEP CARE AND THAT RESPONSIBILITY ENDS AT OUR OWN CHILDREN.

>> THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EVERY NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.

THANKS FOR WATCHING AND GOOD-BYE FROM LONDON.

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