November 17, 2025

HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO. "

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> THOSE WHO REMAIN, MUST BE PROTECTED.

THERE MUST BE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THOSE CARRYING OUT THE KILLING AND THE SEXUAL VIOLENCE.

>> AS SUDAN'S HUMANITARIAN CRISIS WORSENS, THE U. N. VOTES TO INVESTIGATE MASS KILLINGS IN DARFUR.

I SPEAK WITH THE U. N.

'S RELIEF CHIEF TOM FLETCHER, JUST BACK FROM SUDAN.

> >> PLUS, IN A MAJOR REVERSAL, DONALD TRUMP SAYS HE WANTS THE EPSTEIN FILES RELEASED.

WE DISCUSS THE POLITICAL CALCULUS WITH STEPHEN COLLINSON.

>> THEY'RE POSTCARDS OF CERTAIN TIMES.

MUSIC AND WRITING IS EX-TREMELY CART IS THAT RIGHT TICK FOR ME.

>> AFTER 11 YEARS, SARAH McLACHLAN RETURNS WITH A NEW TOUR, NEW MUSIC AND A NEW DOCUMENTARY.

> >> "UNPLUGGED" IN VENTURES FROM MTV AND TIMBUKTU.

TOM FRESTON HELPED SHAPE MODERN POP CULTURE BY FOUNDING THE ICONIC CHANNEL.

HE SPEAK WALTER ISAACSON ABOUT HIS MEMOIR AND THE FUTURE OF MUSIC MEDIA.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> AND A VERY WARM WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M PAULA NEWTON IN NEW YORK SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

AND WE BEGIN IN SUDAN, WHERE THE UNITED NATIONS HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL ON FRIDAY MOVED WITH A STRONG CONSENSUS TO INVESTIGATE MASS KILLINGS IN DARFUR.

THAT COMES AFTER STARK NEW EVIDENCE OF ATROCITIES IN EL FASHER IN THE DARFUR REGION OF WESTERN SUDAN.

AN WHILE THE SEARCH FOR ACCOUNTABILITY NOW BEGINS, THE SUFFERING ON THE GROUND IS ONLY DEEPENING.

THE U. N.

'S TOP AID OFFICIAL TOM FLETCHER HAS JUST RETURNED FROM THAT TAWILA, A TOWN IN NORTHERN DARFUR, THAT IS OVERWHELMED RIGHT NOW BY FAMILIES FLEEING THE VIOLENCE.

ONE WOMAN DESCRIBED ESCAPING THE CITY.

>> I CAME WITH NO FOOD.

WE ARE SUFFERING MORE.

THE WAR IS VERY DEADLY, VERY DANGER.

AND WE LIVE IN FEAR.

>> NOW WITH MORE THAN 21 MILLION SUDANESE FACING ACUTE FOOD INSECURITY AND A COLLAPSING HEALTH SYSTEM, THE HUMANITARIAN EMERGENCY IS JUST SPIRALING.

FLETCHER ALSO MET WITH THE SUDANESE ARMY CHIEF AS WELL AS THE PARAMILITARY RAPID SUPPORT FORCES, AND HE JOINS US NOW FROM CHAD.

AND ESPECIALLY GRATEFUL TO YOU AS YOU ARE JUST RETURNED FROM SUDAN SO THAT WE CAN GET, REALLY, AN EYEWITNESS TO WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS A HORRIFIC SITUATION FOR CIVILIANS, AND YOU ALSO SAY IT'S UNIMAGINABLE SUFFERING THAT YOU'VE SEEN.

AND BASED ON WHAT YOU'VE SEEN AND BEEN BRIEFED ON, WHAT EVIDENCE DO YOU HAVE OF WHAT WE'VE HAD REPORTED, WHICH IS MASS KILLINGS, SEXUAL VIOLENCE, HOUSE-TO-HOUSE ATTACKS CARRIED OUT IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS BY THE RAPID SUPPORT FORCES IN EL FASHER.

>> WELL, THANKS FOR HAVING ME ON, PAULA, AND GOOD AFTERNOON.

YEAH, I SPENT A WEEK INSIDE DARFUR.

I JUST CAME BACK OUT THROUGH THE BORDER CROSSING INTO CHAD.

I MET COUNTLESS, COUNTLESS SURVIVORS WHO TOLD ME HORROR STORIES OF MAX EXECUTIONS, GANG RAPES, OF THE ORDEAL THEY'VE HAD TO GO THROUGH SIMPLY TO ESCAPE FROM EL FASHER, LEAVING LOVED ONES BEHIND.

I MET ONE YOUNG LADY WHO HAD SOMEHOW MANAGED TO SCOOP UP THE MALNOURISHED CHILD OF HER NEIGHBOR HAVING JUST WATCHED THE NEIGHBOR AND HER OWN HUSBAND BEING KILLED.

SHE HAD TAKEN THAT PERILOUS TRACK TO TAWILA WHERE WE WERE ABLE TO PROVIDE SUPPORT.

BUT ON THE WAY SHE HAD HER LEG BROKEN WHEN SHE WAS A ATTACKED BY MILITIA MEMBERS.

AND SO MANY STORIES LIKE THAT.

THIS REALLY IS THE EPICENTER RIGHT NOW OF HUMAN SUFFERING IN THE WORLD.

>> AND YOU DO CALL IT THE EPICENTER OF HUMAN SUFFERING.

AND ON FRIDAY, THE HUMAN RIGHTS COUNCIL ORDERED AN URGENT INVESTIGATION INTO HUMAN RIGHTS VIOLATIONS IN EL FASHER.

I MEAN, REALISTICALLY, AND I ASK YOU NOW, WHAT DO YOU EXPECT FROM THE PROCESS?

YOU HAVE BEEN QUITE TOUGH ON THE U. N. IN GENERAL, THE ORGANIZATION THAT YOU WORK FOR.

HOW CONFIDENT ARE YOU THAT IT WILL DELIVER REAL ACCOUNTABILITY, AND OBVIOUSLY, PUT A STOP TO THIS?

>> WELL, ULTIMATELY, THAT DEPENDS ON HOW STRONG THE MEMBER STATES, THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY ARE WILLING TO BE.

I ABSOLUTELY BACK THAT CALL FOR AN INVESTIGATION.

ALL THE EVIDENCE I HEARD AND SAW DURING MY VISIT SUGGESTS THAT EL FARBER IS A CRIME SCENE RIGHT NOW.

SO WE'VE GOT TO GET THE INVESTIGATORS IN FAST TO HOLD PEOPLE TO ACCOUNT TO INVESTIGATE THIS ATROCITY.

BUT ALSO, WE NEED THAT PRESENCE ON THE GROUND AND THAT INTERNATIONAL SUSTAINED EFFORT TO STOP THE NEXT ATROCITY, WHETHER IT WILL BE IN THE COURT OR ELSEWHERE.

THIS CONFLICT IS STILL GOING ON, AND THE WORLD HAS BEEN PAINFULLY INACTIVE SO FAR.

>> PAINFULLY INACTIVE.

WE WILL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT.

WE DO WANT TO GET TO THE POINT THAT RIGHTS GROUPS REALLY HAVE BEEN TRYING TO GAIN AS MUCH EVIDENCE AS THEY CAN OF GIRLS SEXUALLY ASSAULTED, ETHNICALLY TARGETED EXECUTIONS, ABDUCTS FOR RANSOM.

I AM WONDERING WHAT KIND OF DOCUMENTATION ALREADY EXISTS FROM THE U. N. ?

AND I WANT TO ASK YOU AS WELL, FROM ANY EVIDENCE THAT'S BEEN GATHERED, WHAT ARE THE PATTERNS OF ATROCITIES HERE THAT ARE EMERGING?

>> SO A NUMBER OF OUR PARTNERS ACROSS THE HUMANITARIAN COMMUNITY ARE COLLECTING EVIDENCE.

WE ALSO HAVE TO GET THE PROFESSIONAL INVESTIGATORS IN AS QUICKLY AS POSSIBLE.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS I'VE BEEN NEGOTIATING WITH THE RSF AND OTHERS IS GETTING ACCESS TO EL FASHER AS SOON AS WE CAN UNDER CONDITIONS, WHICH MEANS COMPLETE NEUTRALITY OF OUR TEAMS GOING IN.

BASED ON WHAT I'VE BEEN HEARING FROM THE SURVIVORS JUST UP THE ROAD AND IN KORMA AND TAWILA WHERE I SPENT TWO NIGHTS, THERE WILL BE HUGE AMOUNTS OF EVIDENCE.

YOU WILL ALSO UNDERSTAND IF I HESITATE FROM GIVING TOO MUCH DETAIL HOW THAT EVIDENCE IS BEING COLLECTED.

I NEED TO PROTECT OUR HUMANITARIAN WORKERS AND ALSO PROTECT THE ACCESS THAT WE'RE SEEKING TO GET FOR OUR LIFE-SAVING AID.

>> IN FACT, THEY HAVE BEEN A TARGET THROUGHOUT THIS CONFLICT.

WHAT CAN YOU TELL US ABOUT THAT?

BECAUSE IT MUST REALLY HAMPER ANY KIND OF HUMANITARIAN EFFORTS THAT YOU HAVE ON THE GROUND THERE.

>> HUGELY.

AND, YOU KNOW, I'VE BEEN IN THE LAST YEAR TO SO MANY OF THESE CRISIS SPOTS.

I'VE BEEN INTO GAZA TWICE, AND THIS IS MY SECOND VISIT TO DARFUR.

I'VE NOT BEEN ANYWHERE WHERE THE COMPLEXITY OF THE ACCESS ARRANGEMENTS IS SO DIFFICULT TO NAVIGATE.

YOU'VE GOT TO GET ALONG --I'VE JUST DRIVEN TWO DAYS ON A VERY, VERY BUMPY ROAD TO GET TO TAWILA.

ALONG THE WAY WE MUST HAVE GONE THROUGH 40, 50 CHECKPOINTS, MANNED BY DIFFERENT ARMED GROUP.

I SAY MANNED, ACTUALLY, IT'S CHILDREN WHO ARE RUNNING THESE CHECKPOINTS.

WE CAME THROUGH A PRETTY DICEY FIRE ON THE WAY BACK THERE WAS A DRONE STRIKE NEAR A U. N. CONVOY AS WE WERE GOING IN.

LOGISTICALLY, SECURITY-WISE, POLITICALLY, THIS IS A REALLY, REALLY TOUGH PLACE TO OPERATE.

BUT WE'RE DETERMINED THAT THE U. N. WILL BE AS CLOSE AS POSSIBLE TO THE PEOPLE THAT WE ARE HERE TO SERVE.

THE U. N. IS NOT A SHIP THAT WAS BUILT TO STAY IN HARBOR.

>> TRUE.

WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT THE RISK, I DO BELIEVE IT IS CHILL, AS YOU SAID, TO SEE ESSENTIALLY TEENAGERS RUNNING SOME OF THESE CHECKPOINTS, I'M SURE.

I DO WANT TO TALK ABOUT YOUR TALKS IN THE LAST WEEK.

YOU MET WITH SUDAN'S MILITARY LEADER IN PORT SUDAN.

YOU SAID THOSE TALKS WERE CONSTRUCTIVE.

WHAT AGREEMENT IF ANYTHING?

YOU HIGHLIGHTED IT YOURSELF.

YOU ALSO SPOKE, IN FACT, TO THE RSF FORCES.

DID THEY GIVE YOU ANY REASON TO BE HOPEFUL THAT YOU WOULD HAVE ACCESS TO EL FASHER?

>> SO WITH GENERAL BOHAN AND PORT SUDAN, I INSISTED ON THE NEED FOR US TO HAVE COMPLETE ACCESS EVERYWHERE IN SUDAN ON THE BASIS OF NEED.

AND I'M CONFIDENT THAT THE AGREEMENTS, THE COMMITMENTS HE GAVE ME WILL HOLD.

BUT WE WILL BE VERY CLEAR IN HOLDING EVERYONE HERE TO ACCOUNT FOR ACTUALLY DELIVERING ON THEIR COMMITMENTS TO GIVE US THAT UNHINDERED ACCESS.

WITH THE RSF, I WAS PARTICULARLY FOCUSED ON GETTING ACCESS TO EL FASHER.

NOW I DON'T KNOW HOW LONG THAT WILL TAKE US, BUT I'M PRETTY CONFIDENT WE WILL IN EL FASHER VERY SOON BASED ON THE COMMITMENTS I SECURED A COUPLE OF DAYS AGO FROM THEM.

BUT AGAIN, I INSIST, THIS HAS TO BE ON OUR TERMS.

WELL CAN'T GO IN A WAY THAT POLITICIZES OUR AID OR INSTRUMENTALIZED OUR AID OR MANIPULATES OUR AID IN ANY WAY.

>> AND AGAIN, YOU HIGHLIGHT HOW COMPLICATED THIS WILL BE COMING FORWARD.

YOU OBVIOUSLY NEED HELP FROM NOT JUST THE U. N. , BUT OTHER COUNTRIES AS WELL.

THE U. N.

--YOU SAID AT A MEETING OF THE U. N. SECURITY COUNCIL LAST MONTH THAT YOU WARNED OF A CRISIS OF APATHY.

YOU KNOW, DO WE DESCRIBE IT AS INDIFFERENCE?

I'M WONDERING HOW YOU DESCRIBE IT.

IS IT JUST THAT THEY'VE HAD TOO MUCH ON THEIR PLATE?

I MEAN, SUDAN'S SUFFERING HAS BEEN PROFOUND, AS YOU HAVE POINTED OUT AGAIN AND AGAIN.

AND YET WHY DO YOU BELIEVE THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY IS REACTING THIS WAY?

IS IT APATHY?

IS IT COMPLACENCY?

WHAT IS IT?

>> THAT'S THE CRUCIAL, CRUCIAL QUESTION HERE.

YOU KNOW WHAT?

OUR APPEAL IS ONLY 32% FUNDED.

SO WE ARE MAKING BRUTAL - -I JUST SAT WITH OUR TEAM HERE IN ANDRE WHO ARE LITERALLY MAKING LIFE-AND-DEATH CHOICES ABOUT WHICH PROGRAMS TO CUT.

YOU KNOW, I MENTIONED THAT YOUNG LADY I MET IN TAWILA WHOA ESCAPED FROM EL FASHER, CARRYING THAT CHILD OF HER NEIGHBOR.

IF INTERNATIONAL LEADERS SHOWED AN OUNCE OF THE COURAGE AND HUMANITY THAT SHE SHOWS, THEN WE WOULD BE ABLE TO RESOLVE THIS.

WE WOULD GET THIS OUTPOURING OF GENEROSITY.

SHE SAID TO ME AS I LEFT HER, IS HELP COMING?

OF COURSE I SAID YES.

BUT THAT'S THE CHALLENGE.

THAT'S THE CHALLENGE TO OUR LEADERS, PARTICULARLY PEOPLE BOASTING ABOUT AID RITE NOW.

WILL YOU STAND UP AND HELP END THIS WAR AND GET THE HELP IN BECAUSE IT'S SO BADLY NEEDED.

YOU'RE RIGHT.

APATHY, INDIFFERENCE, DISTRACTION, BUT THESE ARE NOT GOOD ENOUGH EXCUSES RIGHT NOW.

>> AND YOU MAKE THE POINT, RIGHT, THAT YOU HAD TO LOOK THAT WOMAN IN THE FACE AND SAY IS HELP COMING AND YOU SAY YES.

OBVIOUSLY, YOU WANT TO GIVE HER HOPE.

AND YOU STILL HAVE HOPE.

I CAN HEAR IT IN YOUR VOICE.

THERE IS CERTAINLY THE UNITED STATES CAN DO A LOT ALTHOUGH OTHER COUNTRIES SHOULD NOT BE EXCUSED.

THE UNITED STATES ANNOUNCED $200 BILLION WITH DEALS WITH UAE, IN TERMS OF THEIR INVOLVEMENT IN THIS CONFLICT.

THEY DENY ANY INVOLVEMENT.

BUT WHAT PRESSURE DO YOU BELIEVE THAT BOTH THE UNITED STATES AND OTHER COUNTRIES CAN PUT ON COUNTRIES LIKE THE UAE TO TRY AND REALLY STOP WHATEVER THEY ARE DOING IN ORDER TO AFFECT THE CRISIS THAT IS ON THE GROUND NOW IN SUDAN?

>> WELL, I THINK THE UNITED STATES IS PLAYING A VERY ENERGIZED ROLE RIGHT NOW IN TRYING TO STOP THIS CONFLICT.

I'M IN DAILY CONFLICT WITH DR.

ABDULLAHS FROM PRESIDENT TRUMP'S TEAM WHO IS INCREDIBLY ENGAGED ALONG SIDE THE EGYPTIANS AND EMIRATIS TO TRY TO FIND A WAY TO GET THE GUNS FALL SILENT.

THAT'S HUGELY WELCOME.

IT'S A LEVEL OF ENGAGEMENT WE'VE NOTE SEEN IN RECENT MONTHS.

I HOPE IT BRINGS RESULTS.

IN TERMS OF THE ARMS GETTING IN, I'VE BEEN VERY CLEAR THAT THERE MUST BE ACCOUNTABILITY FOR THE PEOPLE WHO FIRE THE WEAPON, FOR THE PEOPLE WHO GIVE THE ORDER TO FIRE THE WEAPON, AND THAT ANYONE PROVIDING ARMS TO THIS CONFLICT RIGHT NOW SHOULD TAKE A LONG HARD LOOK AT THEMSELVES IN THE MIRROR.

THE LAST THING SUDAN NEEDS RIGHT NOW IS MORE GUNS AND BULLETS.

IT NEEDS FOOD AND MEDICINE AND WATER AND PEACE.

>> AND AS YOU NOTED, PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS SAID HIMSELF THAT THEY ARE MORE ENGAGED.

I'M SURE MANY WILL BE RELIEVED TO HEAR THAT IS THE SAME MESSAGE YOU ARE GETTING BEHIND THE SCENES.

WE DO WANT TO TURN TO GAZA NOW.

AS YOU MENTIONED, YOU HAVE BEEN IN AND OUT OF GAZA AS WELL SINCE THE CEASEFIRE.

WE'VE SEEN THE VIDEO.

HEAVY STORMS AND FLOODING HAVE ABSOLUTELY DEVASTATED THE TENT CAMPS.

WITH WINTER APPROACHING, HOW CONCERNED ARE YOU THAT THOUSANDS OF FAMILIES THERE WILL NOT SURVIVE THE COMING MONTHS?

>> I'M VERY WORRIED, OBVIOUSLY.

AND WE'RE JUST OVER HALFWAY THROUGH THE 60- DAY PLAN THAT I OUTLINED IN RESPONSE TO THE CEASEFIRE DEAL.

HUGELY WELCOME CEASEFIRE DEAL THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP GOT.

AND WE'RE SEEING A REAL SURGE IN AID.

WE'RE GETTING MUCH, MUCH MORE IN.

WE'RE GETTING MILLIONS OF MEALS OUT THERE.

WE'RE STANDING UP THE HEALTH SECTOR AGAIN.

AND WE'RE GETTING TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TENTS IN.

THAT'S A REAL IMPROVEMENT ON WHERE WE WERE 32, 33 DAYS AGO.

BUT IT'S JUST NOT ENOUGH.

AND PARTICULARLY SEEING THESE HEAVY RAINS, WE NEED ALL THE CROSSINGS OPEN.

WE'VE GOT MORE TENTS WE CAN GET IN.

WE'VE GOT A PIPELINE OF SUPPLIES, OF CRUCIAL WINTERIZATION KITS THAT COME WITH CLOTHING AND THE FUEL THAT PEOPLE NEED TO SURVIVE THE WINTER.

WE CAN GET ALL THAT IN IF THOSE CROSSINGS ARE OPEN AND WE'RE ALLOWED TO DELIVER AT SCALE.

WE'VE ONLY GOT THREE OF THE SIX CROSSINGS OPEN RIGHT NOW.

AND THEN WE ALSO NEED THE WHOLE OF THE HUMANITARIAN COMMUNITY ALLOWED THE ACCESS, BECAUSE WE RELY HUGELY ON OUR NGO PARTNERS THAT DO CRUCIAL, CRUCIAL WORK INSIDE GAZA.

AND THEY'RE NOT CURRENTLY GETTING THE ACCESS ALONGSIDE US THAT THEY NEED AND WE NEED THEM TO HAVE.

>> AND SO, TOM, CAN WE QUANTIFY THIS A LITTLE BIT.

WE HAD HEARD 600 TRUCKS A DAY.

APPARENTLY ONLY ABOUT 150 ARE ENTERING.

YET YOU SAY THE INFLUX IS SIGNIFICANT.

HOW MANY ARE GETTING IN?

AS YOU SAY, THE BOTTLENECK IS THEN THE ACTUAL ENTRANCES IN TERMS OF THE ENTRANCES YOU CAN USE TO ACTUALLY GET THE AID INTO GAZA.

SO IT'S BOTH THINGS?

>> YEAH.

WE ARE GETTING FAR MORE TRUCKS IN THAN WE WERE BEFORE.

IT VARIES FROM DAY TO DAY.

WE'RE TRYING TO HIT ACROSS THE SECTOR THE TARGETS THAT WERE SET IN THAT PEACE AGREEMENT IN THE DEAL THAT WAS ANNOUNCED IN SHARM EL SHEIKH.

SO AS THE PIPELINE, IT'S ALSO THE IMPEDIMENTS TO THE NGOs THAT THEY'RE FACING.

AND IT'S ALSO JUST THE SCALE THAT WE NEED TO GET.

IN WE NEED TO GET THE OTHER THREE CROSSINGS OPEN, ALLENBY BRIDGE FROM JORDAN, ABSOLUTELY CRUCIAL PIPELINE FOR OUR SUPPLIES.

THAT'S STILL CLOSED AT THE MOMENT.

I KNOW FROM MY DAILY CONTACTS WITH THE WHITE HOUSE ON THIS HOW HARD THEY'RE WORKING TO GET THE CONVOYS WORKING AT THE SCALE WE NEED.

WE NEED THAT SUSTAINED.

>> THEY HAVE CERTAINLY NOTED THEY ARE ENGAGE ODD ABOUT THAT FILE AS WELL.

TOM FLETCHER, REALLY GRATEFUL TO YOU, ESPECIALLY AS YOU ARE JUST OUT OF SUDAN AND WE'LL CONTINUE TO FOLLOW DEVELOPMENTS.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> THANK YOU, PAULA.

> >> AND NOW TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DRAMATIC SHIFT ON THE JEFFREY EPSTEIN FILES.

NOW IN A POST ON HIS WEBSITE, HE URGED REPUBLICANS TO VOTE TO RELEASE THE FILES AND MOVE ON FROM WHAT HE'S CALLING A, QUOTE, DEMOCRATIC HOAX.

NOW IT MARKS A DRAMATIC TURNAROUND FOR THE PRESIDENT AND IT COMES AS SOME EPSTEIN SURVIVORS MAKE A PUBLIC PUSH TO TRY AND CONVINCE HOUSE REPUBLICANS TO VOTE TO RELEASE THE FILES.

HERE IS A CLIP FROM THEIR VERY POWERFUL PSA.

>> I WAS 14 YEARS OLD.

>> I WAS 16 YEARS OLD.

>> 16.

>> 17.

>> 14 YEARS OLD.

>> THIS IS ME.

>> THIS WAS ME.

>> THIS IS ME.

>> WHEN I MET JEFFREY EPSTEIN.

>> THIS IS ME WHEN I MET JEFFREY EPSTEIN.

>> IT'S TIME TO BRING THE SECRETS OUT OF THE SHADOWS.

IT'S TIME TO SHINE A LIGHT BOO THE DARKNESS.

>> STEPHEN COLLINSON JOINS ME FROM WASHINGTON.

STEPHEN, I'M GRATEFUL THAT THOSE WOMEN ARE BRAVE ENOUGH TO PUT A HUMAN FACE ON EVERYTHING WE TALK ABOUT.

RIGHT NOW THIS IS A HUGE POLITICAL CONCERN FROM WHERE YOU ARE.

WHAT DO YOU MAKE OF THE PRESIDENT'S REVERSAL ON ALL THIS.

FIRST HE SAID IT WAS HOAX, NOW HE IS ENCOURAGING THEM TO RELEASE THE FILES.

THIS IS AFTER MONTHS OF, YOU KNOW, HIM TRYING TO BREAK THE PARTY RANKS ON THIS.

>> YEAH.

THAT WAS THE REASON WHEN THIS CAME OUT ON HIS TRUTH SOCIAL, SOCIAL MEDIA ACCOUNT LAST NIGHT, IT WAS QUITE A SHOCK.

AND IT REALLY REVERBERATED ACROSS WASHINGTON.

I THINK THE MOST LIKELY EXPLANATION IS THAT THE PRESIDENT REASONED THAT HE WAS ABOUT TO SUFFER A HUMILIATING POLITICAL DEFEAT.

WE'VE HAD THROUGH THE WEEKEND REPUBLICANS WHO SUPPORT THIS BILL TO OPEN THE FILES SAYING THAT THEY EXPECT MULTIPLE PERHAPS TENS OR EVEN UP TO 100 REPUBLICANS TO REPUDIATE THE PRESIDENT TO OPEN THESE FILES.

NOW AT LEAST THE PRESIDENT CAN TURN AROUND AND SAY WELL, I WANTED THIS VOTE TOO.

SO IT IS NOT A PUBLIC SHATTERING OF HIS AUTHORITY, EVEN THOUGH IT IS HUGELY UNUSUAL.

IT'S UNPRECEDENTED ACROSS THE SPAN OF TRUMP'S TWO WHITE HOUSE TERMS FOR HIM TO BE LED BY THE REPUBLICAN CONFERENCE IN THE HOUSE.

HE OF COURSE HAS HAD AN IRON GRIP ON HIS PARTY, AND HIS PARTY'S BASE.

SO THIS IS SOMETHING THAT'S A VERY INTERESTING POLITICAL DEVELOPMENT.

NOW THE QUESTION IS DOES THIS GET TO OPENING THOSE FILES THAT THOSE VICTIMS HOPED TO SEE.

I THINK THAT IS VERY MUCH UP IN THE AIR.

THIS MAY WELL BE A TACTIC BY THE PRESIDENT THAT DOESN'T IN THE END REPRESENT A MASSIVE CHANGE OF HIS POSITION AND HIS DESIRE NOT TO SEE THOSE FILES RELEASED.

>> SO CAN YOU TAKE US THROUGH THIS, STEPHEN, IN TERMS OF WHAT THE POSSIBLE END GAME MIGHT BE FOR THE PRESIDENT?

AND A LOT OF THIS MIGHT ACTUALLY MOVE OVER TO THE SENATE.

WE HAD SENATE LEADERSHIP TO SAY TODAY THAT THEY DIDN'T KNOW IF THEY WERE GOING TO PUT A VOTE ON THE FLOOR ON THIS.

>> YEAH, I THINK THE QUESTION NOW IS WHETHER THERE IS A BIG ENOUGH VOTE IN THE HOUSE TO CHANGE THE POLITICS IN THE SENATE TO MAKE IT ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE FOR THE SENATE MAJORITY LEADER JOHN THUNE NOT TO BRING THIS UP, AND WOULD THERE THEN BE SUFFICIENT REPUBLICAN SUPPORT TO GET TO THE 60 VOTE FILIBUSTER THRESHOLD THAT WOULD PASS THE BILL, AND THEN GET IT TO PRESIDENT TRUMP'S DESK.

THEN TECHNICALLY, AT LEAST, HE COULD SAY THAT HE'S GOING TO VETO THIS.

THAT WOULD SEND IT BACK TO THE CONGRESS.

IT WOULD NEED A TWO-THIRDS MAJORITY IN BOTH HOUSES TO OVERRIDE THAT.

BUT THE QUESTION HERE IS ALMOST MOOT, THOUGH.

THE PRESIDENT KEEPS TELLING US THAT HE IS THE HEAD --TITULAR HEAD OF THE JUSTICE DEPARTMENT IN THE UNITED STATES OR THE JUSTICE SYSTEM.

IF HE WANTED THESE FILES TO COME OUT, HE DOESN'T REALLY HAVE TO WAIT FOR CONGRESS TO AUTHORIZE IT.

SO THAT IS THE REASON WHY A LOT OF PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT THIS IS A TACTICAL RETREAT BY THE PRESIDENT, AND IT DOESN'T REPRESENT A FULL SHIFT OF HIS POSITION.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I WAS LISTENING TO ONE OF THE VICTIMS ON CNN LAST WEEK, AND SHE SAID THAT THE POLITICAL GROUND HERE IS SHIFTING AT SUCH A RATE THAT NO ONE REALLY KNOWS HOW THIS IS GOING THE END UP, BECAUSE SHE SAID, YOU KNOW, NO ONE WOULD HAVE THOUGHT A YEAR AGO THAT PRINCE ANDREW WOULDN'T BE A PRINCE.

OF COURSE, HIS OWN RELATIONSHIP WITH JEFFREY EPSTEIN HAS COME UNDER SCRUTINY.

SO I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THOSE POLITICAL CRISES THAT DOES TEND TO CREATE ITS OWN MOMENTUM.

SO IT'S DIFFICULT TO PREDICT FROM HERE WHAT WILL HAPPEN.

>> AND MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE PERHAPS IS THE ONE PERSON WHO NOTICED THE POLITICAL GROUND SHIFTING BEFORE OTHERS.

AGAIN, A HUGE MAGA SUPPORTER.

WHAT IS THE STORY THERE?

I MEAN, SHE WAS THIS MAGA SUPERSTAR.

THE PRESIDENT HAS NOW CALLED HER WACKY MARJORIE, AND WORSE, MARJORIE TRAITOR GREEN.

>> YEAH, WHEN SHE FIRST CAME TO WASHINGTON AFTER WINNING HER SEAT IN THE 2020 ELECTION, SHE WAS ALMOST SEEN AS MORE TRUMPY THAN TRUMP.

SHE WAS A MASSIVE SUPPORTER OF TRUMP.

SHE STOOD WITH HIM ALL THROUGH HIS LEGAL PROBLEMS WHEN HE WAS OUT OF OFFICE, TRAVELLED WITH HIM IN 2024 ON THE CAMPAIGN.

SHE SPLIT WITH HIM OVER THE EPSTEIN ISSUE.

BUT IT'S NOT JUST THAT.

SHE'S BEEN CRITICIZING HIM FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS ON THE COST OF HEALTH CARE IN THE UNITED STATES, ON THE PRICE OF GROCERIES, THE COST OF LIVING, ENERGY.

SHE HAS BEEN MAKING THE CASE THAT DONALD TRUMP, THE ARCHITECT OF THE MAGA MOVEMENT AND AMERICA FIRST NO LONGER STANDS FOR THOSE PRINCIPLES AS MUCH AS MANY OF HIS SUPPORTERS WOULD LIKE TO SEE.

SHE'S CRITICIZED HIS TRIPS TO ASIA, TO THE MIDDLE EAST, TO EUROPE.

HIS ATTEMPTS TO WIN THE NOBEL PEACE PRIZE.

SHE SAYS SHE WANTS HIM TO PARK AIR FORCE ONE IN THE UNITED STATES AND FOCUS PURELY ON DOMESTIC POLITICS.

AND I THINK THIS IS --IT'S JUST A HINT RIGHT NOW, BUT YOU'RE SEEING A FEW REPUBLICAN LAWMAKERS START TO THINK ABOUT WHAT THEIR OWN POLITICAL FUTURES WILL LOOK LIKE IN THE MAGA MOVEMENT AND THE REPUBLICAN PARTY WHEN DONALD TRUMP IS NO LONGER LEADING IT.

I THINK THAT IS THE MOST INTERESTING THING THAT REALLY UNDERLIES NOT JUST THE EPSTEIN ISSUE, BUT MARJORIE TAYLOR GREENE'S REALLY INTERESTING COMMENTS.

>> AS I SAID BEFORE, SHE SEEMS TO RECOGNIZE THAT THE POLITICAL GROUND WAS SHIFTING EARLIER THAN ANYONE ELSE.

>> YEAH.

>> AFTER THOSE VICTORIES, FOR THE DEMOCRATS, RIGHT.

THAT RECENT VICTORY HAS GIVEN MANY PEOPLE EVEN IN THE MAGA MOVEMENT PAUSE.

YOU'VE DONE AN EXCELLENT JOB ON BRINGING US RIGHT UP TO SPEED ON WHAT IS AN INCREDIBLY COMPLICATED STORY.

STEPHEN COLLINSON FOR US, GRATEFUL TO YOU.

>> THANKS.

> >> SO MR.

THAN THREE DECADES AFTER HER BREAKOUT, SARAH McLACHLAN IS EXPERIENCING A REMARKABLE NEW CHAPTER IN HER CAREER AFTER AN 11-YEAR WAIT, SHE IS BACK WITH A NEW ALBUM OF ORIGINAL SONGS.

SHE IS ON TOUR AGAIN, AND SHE IS EVEN UP FOR INDUCTION INTO THE SONGWRITER'S HALL OF FAME.

AND A NEW HULU DOCUMENTARY ALSO REVISITS HER TRAILBLAZING CREATION OF AN ALL FEMALE ARTIST FESTIVAL, LILITH FAIR.

NOW SHE'S STATESIDE FOR A MONTH OF SHOWS, AND I SPOKE WITH HER ABOUT MUSIC, ACTIVISM, AND WHAT STILL FUELS HER AFTER ALL THESE YEARS.

>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> WE DO WANT THE START WITH WHAT'S NEW.

LET'S START WITH WHAT'S NEW.

"BETTER BROKEN" IS WHAT'S NEW.

IT'S YOUR LATEST ALBUM, AND YOUR FIRST IN MORE THAN A DECADE.

SO TELL US WHY THIS ALBUM, THESE SONGS.

GIVE US SOME INSIGHT INTO YOUR PASSION FOR THIS PROJECT.

>> WELL, YEAH, IT'S BEEN 11 YEARS SINCE MY LAST RECORD.

AND THESE ARE BASICALLY SONGS ABOUT MY LIFE.

THEY'RE SORT OF POSTCARDS OF CERTAIN PERIODS OF TIME.

MUSIC AND WRITING IS EXTREMELY CATHARTIC FOR ME.

SO IT'S A LOT OF MY, I GUESS, MY ANGST AND FRUSTRATIONS AND SADNESS AND JUST WRITING IS WAY OF SORTING THROUGH A LOT OF THE CHALLENGES THAT I FACED IN MY LIFE.

AND THEN SORT OF FINDING A PLACE TO PUT IT.

YOU KNOW, THAT BEING SAID, I'M IN A GREAT PLACE IN MY LIFE NOW.

I'M REALLY HAPPY, LIFE IS VERY EASY, I JUST FINISHED --I FINALLY FINISHED THE 30th ANNIVERSARY FALLING TOWARDS ECSTASY TOUR THAT I WAS SUPPOSED TO FINISH LAST YEAR, BUT I GOT A COUPLE OF WICKED VIRUSES, LOST MY VOICE FOR MONTHS, AND HAD TO GO ON VOCAL REST.

AND ACTUALLY, THIS WHOLE WINTER I WAS UNSURE WHETHER I WOULD ACTUALLY BE ABLE TO SING AGAIN.

SO THAT WAS A BIT STRESSFUL.

>> WOW.

>> JUST FINISHED THAT CANADIAN LEG UP, AND I GOT A COUPLE OF DAYS AT HOME, AND I'M COMING BACK TO STARTING IN D. C. SO I'M VERY EXCITED ABOUT THAT.

>> EXACTLY.

YOU ARE IN THE UNITED STATES, IN FACT THIS ENTIRE WEEK.

AND THEY ARE GOING TO GET QUITE A TREAT, THE FANS.

I WILL SAY WHEN YOU SAY IT'S CATHARTIC, I CAN SPEAK AS SOMEONE WHO LISTENS TO YOUR MUSIC, IT'S CATHARTIC FOR SO MANY THAT LISTEN TO YOUR SONGS.

AND I WANT TO GET TO A NEW ONE.

IT'S CALLED "GRAVITY. "

AND I CALL IT, I'M TAKING SOME CREATIVE LICENSE HERE, I CALL IT AN ADULT CHILD'S LULLABY.

LET'S LISTEN FOR A MOMENT.

?

YOU CAN HIDE AWAY, ALL YOUR HEART AND PAIN, I KNOW YOU WANT TO BE LOVED ?

?

THERE WILL BE AND BREAK YOUR HEART, I WILL BE LIKE GRAVITY ALWAYS TRUE ?

?

I WON'T GIVE UP ON YOU ?

>> SO LOVELY TO HEAR THAT YOU'VE BEEN OPEN ABOUT THE FACT THAT THAT'S ABOUT A PAINFUL TIME IN YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH YOUR OPEN DAUGHTER, ALL PATCHED UP NOW.

YOU'RE GLAD TO REPORT.

MANY OF YOUR SONGS ARE ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS.

BUT HOW IS THIS SONG DIFFERENT FROM OTHERS THAT YOU'VE WRITTEN AND PERFORMED?

>> WELL, I THINK THIS IS ONE OF THE MOST VULNERABLE SONGS I'VE EVER WRITTEN.

AND CERTAINLY BECAUSE IT'S ABOUT MY RELATIONSHIP WITH MY CHILD, IT'S JUST THE WHOLE THING WAS VERY, VERY FRAUGHT.

I WAS ACTUALLY TENTATIVE TO PUT IT OUT BECAUSE I WANTED TO MAKE SURE SHE WAS OKAY WITH IT.

IT'S ONE THING WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT YOUR OWN FEELINGS ABOUT CERTAIN ISSUE.

BUT WHEN YOU BRING SOMEBODY ELSE INTO A VERY PUBLIC REALM ABOUT A VERY PRIVATE MATTER, THERE NEEDS TO BE DISCUSSIONS ABOUT IT.

AND I TALKED TO MY DAUGHTER A LOT ABOUT IT.

AND SHE WAS LIKE NO, I WANT PEOPLE TO KNOW ABOUT THIS.

I THINK IT'S REALLY IMPORTANT.

ESPECIALLY BECAUSE OF THE WORK THAT WE DID AND HOW MUCH THAT HELPED.

SHE SAID I THINK THAT CAN HELP OTHER PEOPLE AS WELL.

AND I DO THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO --FOR ALL OF US TO TALK ABOUT HARD THINGS THAT WE'VE BEEN THROUGH, BECAUSE I THINK IT ALLOWS OTHER PEOPLE TO FEEL LESS ALONE, BECAUSE WE ALL GO THROUGH IT.

IT'S TOUGH BEING A PARENT.

AND KIDS THESE DAYS ARE REALLY STRUGGLING WITH SOCIAL MEDIA, WITH THE WAY THE WORLD IS, AND THEY DON'T HAVE THE SAME LIFE EXPERIENCE THAT WE HAVE TO KNOW THAT THIS IS CYCLICAL.

IT IS CRAZY-MAKING RIGHT NOW FOR SURE FOR ALL OF US, BUT, IT'S TOUGH, AND BEING ABLE TO TALK OPENLY ABOUT ALL OF OUR STRUGGLES AND HOW WE'VE OVERCAME THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT.

>> YEAH, AND I THINK AS A MOTHER OF ADULT CHILDREN, I THINK SO MANY PARENTS OUT THERE CAN REALLY RELATE TO THAT.

AND THE FACT THAT YOU'VE COME THROUGH IT AND A SONG CAN BE HELPFUL TO EVERYONE IN DOING THAT.

WITH THESE SONGS WITH "BETTER BROKEN," I AM WONDERING HOW THEY DIFFER FROM YOUR EARLIER LYRICS AND YOUR COLLABORATIONS.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THE SOUNDTRACK THAT YOU HAVE GIVEN US FOR SO MANY DECADES NOW, SO MANY OF US PLAY IT ON REPEAT.

WE WALK THROUGH THE STREETS OF BIG CITIES.

WE'RE IN FRONT OF LAKES AND OCEANS LISTENING TO IT.

I AM WONDERING HOW YOUR SONGWRITING HAS CHANGED, AND MAYBE IT HASN'T.

>> I WOULD HOPE THAT IT'S EVOLVED.

I THINK THAT AS I'VE GOTTEN OLDER, HOPEFULLY MY REVELATIONS AND MY INSIGHTS ABOUT MYSELF HAVE SLOWLY INCHED FORWARD.

YOU KNOW, I DO FIND THAT I FALL BACK ON SIMILAR THEMES, AS YOU SAID, I WRITE A LOT ABOUT RELATIONSHIPS.

AND I THINK WE ALL HAVE PATTERNS IN OUR LIVES.

SOME OF WHICH WE NEED TO OVERCOME.

AND I NOTICE PATTERNS IN MY SONGWRITING, AND I NOTICE PATTERNS IN MY RELATIONSHIPS.

AND PART OF THE WRITING IS ALLOWING ME TO SEE THOSE PATTERNS.

OH, OKAY, THESE ARE THINGS I WANT TO CONTINUE TO WORK ON AND CHANGE.

BUT I THINK I'VE BECOME --I HOPE I'VE BECOME MORE OPEN AND HAVE EDITED MYSELF LESS.

I THINK THIS ALBUM IS PROBABLY ONE OF THE MOST VULNERABLE RECORDS I'VE WRITTEN.

"GRAVITY" IS ONE OF THOSE SONGS, "WIRLDNESS" AS WELL IS SONG THAT VERY STORYTELLING AND VERY KIND OF HARSH AND BARE FOR ME.

BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, THAT A TIME FOR ME THAT WAS INCREDIBLY --THERE WAS SO MUCH SHAME AND SO MUCH VULNERABILITY IN THERE.

AND I SING IT NOW, AND THERE IS A SENSE OF STRENGTH AND PRIDE.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHERE "BETTER BROKEN" CAME FROM IS THIS SENSE OF RESILIENCE THAT WE GO THROUGH THESE HARD THINGS, AND WE HAVE TO PICK OURSELVES BACK UP AND FIND A WAY TO MOVE FORWARD AND USE THOSE THINGS TO LEARN AND GROW AND BECOME BETTER AND STRONGER.

>> AND I KNOW FOR SO MANY PEOPLE, YOUR SONGS ACTUALLY GIVE THEM A LOT OF RESILIENCE AND LISTENING TO THE LYRICS.

ON THE COVER OF YOUR NEW ALBUM, I LOOKED AT THE PICTURE, AND I THINK IT'S A STUNNING PICTURE, BY THE WAY.

YOU'RE BOTH DEFIANT AND I THINK A BIT CHIEVOUS.

WHAT DID GET YOU BACK IN THE STUDIO?

IT HAD BEEN MORE THAN A DECADE.

>> YEAH, I HAD BEEN WRITING ON AND OFF THE WHOLE TIME.

LIFE GOT IN THE WAY.

I HAD TWO TEENAGED DAUGHTERS.

I WENT THROUGH A YEAR OF REAL STRUGGLE WITH MY ELDEST CHILD.

I'VE BEEN CONTINUING TO FUND RAISE OFF THE SIDE OF MY DESK FOR MY FREE MUSIC SCHOOLS.

AND I CONTINUED TO DO SOME SHOWS AS WELL.

THERE WAS JUST A LOT OF THINGS THAT TOOK ME AWAY FROM MUSIC FOR A WHILE.

AND I THINK I DEFINITELY HAD SOME TREPIDATION OF GETTING BACK INTO THE GAME, BECAUSE I KNOW FULL WELL HOW MUCH IT TAKES TO PROMOTE A RECORD, WHICH MEANS LEAVING FOR A LOT OF TIME.

AND I ALSO THOUGHT IF IT'S MY LAST RECORD, I REALLY WANT TO TRY SOMETHING DIFFERENT.

SO IT TOOK ME A WHILE TO GET UP THE GUTS TO GO FIND SOMEBODY TO HELP ME WITH THIS PROJECT.

AND MEETING TONY BERG AND WILL McCLELLAN WAS SUCH A GIFT.

WITHIN A WEEK OF BEING IN THE STUDIO FOR THE FIRST TIME, I WAS COMPLETELY REENGAGED AND RECHARGED AND IN MY OWN MIND WHY WOULD I THINK THIS IS MY LAST RECORD?

THIS IS SO MUCH FUN.

I LOVE DOING.

THIS.

>> I AM SO GLAD TO HEAR, THAT AND I'M SURE MANY PEOPLE LISTENING HERE ARE AS WELL.

WE DO WANT TO TAKE YOU A LITTLE BIT INTO YOUR PAST.

AND FOR THOSE WHO DON'T KNOW, LILITH FAIR, BUILDING A MYSTERY.

IT'S A NEW DOCUMENTARY ABOUT LILITH FAIR ITSELF.

ARGUABLY AND I'LL PARAPHRASE IT HERE, ONE OF YOUR MOST WORTHY ACCOMPLISHMENTS.

YOU FOUNDED IT IN THE LATE 1990s, AN ALL FEMALE MUSIC FESTIVAL.

AND REALLY, ON THE CONVICTION THAT WOMEN COULD HEADLINE AND CARRY A MAJOR CONCERT TOUR.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT HOW YOU FEEL ABOUT THIS TRIUMPH IN THE END.

HOW DO YOU FEEL ABOUT IT NOW WHEN YOU LOOK BACK ON IT?

>> I FEEL INCREDIBLY PROUD TO HAVE BEEN PART OF IT, AND THAT WE ALL STOOD TOGETHER AND REALLY, YOU KNOWS SHIFTED THE DIAL AND CREATED SOME CHANGE.

NOT JUST IN THAT MOMENT, BUT I THINK THERE IS A REAL LEGACY THAT HAS CONTINUED.

YOU KNOW, THERE ARE SO MANY YOUNG PEOPLE I'VE MET OVER THE YEARS WHO HAVE COME UP TO ME AND SAID THAT WAS MY FIRST CONCERT.

YOU ALL SHOWED ME I COULD BE ANYTHING I WANT.

I'M NOW RUNNING A CORPORATION AND I'M BRINGING OTHER WOMEN ALONGSIDE ME.

I'M SUPPORTING WOMEN.

AND I THINK THAT'S ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL LASTING MESSAGES OF THAT FILM AND OF THAT TIME IS THAT WHEN WOMEN SUPPORT WOMEN, WHEN WE CARRY EACH OTHER AND LIFT EACH OTHER UP INSTEAD OF TEARING EACH OTHER DOWN, SUCCESS COMES, AND SUCCESS LOOKS LIKE THERE'S MANY DIFFERENT FACETS OF IT.

AND I LOVE IN PARTICULAR RIGHT NOW THAT THAT MOVIE IS OUT THERE.

AS JUST A REMINDER THAT WHEN WE CHOOSE TO STAND TOGETHER, WE CAN CREATE REAL CHANGE, AND IT'S POWERFUL.

>> AND SPEAKING OF THAT CHANGE, THOUGH, IT'S MORE THAN A GENERATION LATER, DO YOU FEEL THAT IT STILL HAS THE SAME RESONANCE?

HAS IT DIMINISHED AT ALL?

AS YOU KNOW AS AN ARTIST AND A MOTHER, YOUR DAUGHTERS AND MINE, THEY LIVE IN DIFFERENT POLITICAL REALITIES TODAY IN 2025.

I'M NOT SURE YOU COULD HAVE EVEN IMAGINED THEM IN THE LATE '90s.

>> I DEFINITELY THINK THAT THE FILM ITSELF HAS A GREAT MESSAGE, AND I THINK, I HOPE THAT THERE IS RESONANCE TODAY.

AND I HOPE IT ENCOURAGES WOMEN TO CONTINUE TO STAND UP AND SUPPORT EACH OTHER, TO CREATE CHANGE IN THE WORLD.

YOU KNOW, I THINK THERE IS A NUMBER OF LASTING LEGACIES.

ALL THE MONEY I MADE FROM LILITH, I TOOK AND PUT INTO THE FOUNDATION, WHICH CONTINUES TO SUPPORT YOUTH AT RISK TO HAVE MUSIC EDUCATION IN THEIR LIVES.

SO, YES, I THINK IT CONTINUES.

IN QUIET WAYS, IN LOUD WAYS, ARTISTS LIKE BRANDI CARLILE ARE CONTINUING TO CHAMPION FEMALE ARTISTS AND SUPPORT OTHER MUSICIANS.

I SEE IT ALL OVER THE PLACE.

TAYLOR SWIFT CHANGING THE FACE OF THE WORLD AND BRINGING ALONG --PREDOMINANTLY ALL FEMALE ARTISTS TO OPEN UP FOR HER AS WELL.

I SEE THE SHIFT CONTINUING.

>> CONTINUING, NOT OVER YET, BUT CONTINUING.

I HAVE TO SAY I'VE ALWAYS LOVED THE COVER OF "ROLLING STONE" MAGAZINE IN 1998.

THEY CALLED YOU THE FLOWER CHILD WITH A FILTHY MIND.

TELL US, SARAH McLACHLAN.

IT'S CATCHY, BUT WAS IT TRUE?

IS IT STILL TRUE?

DO YOU HAVE A FILTHY MIND?

>> I DON'T THINK I HAVE A FILTHY MIND.

I THINK AT THE TIME I WAS INTERESTED IN SHOCKING PEOPLE A LITTLE BIT MORE THAN I AM NOW.

[ LAUGHTER ] YOU KNOW, I THINK PEOPLE ASSUMED THAT I WAS THIS QUIET WAIF WHO SAT IN THE ATTIC READING SYLVIA PLATTE AND BRINGING RED WINE WITH CANDLES AT 2:00 IN THE MORNING.

THAT REALLY IS NOT WHO I AM AT ALL.

I'M A VERY HAPPY AND OPTIMISTIC PERSON.

SO I THINK I ALWAYS WAS ATTEMPTING TO DISPEL SOME OF THOSE MYTHS.

>> BUT GETTING BACK TO WHAT --A LOT OF PEOPLE WOULD SAY OKAY, THAT'S A BAD ASS COVER, YOU'RE A BAD ASS MUSICIAN.

AT THE END OF THE DAY, YOU PROBABLY HAD TO TO BE MORE A PAIN IN THE ASS JUST TO HAVE THE FORTITUDE TO SEE SOME OF THESE THINGS THROUGH LIKE LILITH FAIR.

>> WELL, I WAS EXTREMELY STUBBORN.

I ALWAYS HAVE BEEN.

AND I RAGE AGAINST INJUSTICE.

AND IT SEEMED LUDICROUS WHEN PEOPLE SAID YOU CAN'T -- YOU CAN'T PUT TWO WOMEN ON THE SAME BILL.

IT WILL NOT SUCCEED.

WELL, I'VE ALREADY BEEN DOING THAT.

SO LET'S PUT 11 ON THE SAME BILL AND SCREW YOU.

WE'LL SHOW YOU.

AND WE DID.

>> YOU DID INDEED.

AND LEFT US WITH QUITE A BODY OF WORK THAT CONTINUES, WE'RE HAPPY TO SAY.

YOU SAID YOU WERE TOURING IN THE UNITED STATES, CONTINUING ON WITH YOUR TOUR.

SUCH A PLEASURE.

SARAH McLACHLAN, THANK YOU.

APPRECIATE IT.

>> MY PLEASURE.

THANK YOU.

> >> NEXT, TO MTV, THE FIRST EVER 24-HOUR CABLE NETWORK DEDICATED SOLELY TO MUSIC VIDEOS.

NOW IT WAS LAUNCHED IN THE '80s.

IT'S BROUGHT HIT SONGS TO THE LIVING ROOMS OF AUDIENCES RIGHT ACROSS THE GLOBE, REVOLUTIONIZING MUSIC ENTERTAINMENT.

NOW UNDER PARAMOUNT, AND COMPETING AGAINST ONLINE STREAMING PLATFORMS, MTV IS SHUTTING DOWN ITS EUROPEAN MUSIC CHANNELS BY THE END OF THE YEAR, BRINGING THAT CHAPTER OF POP CULTURE TO A CLOSE.

TOM FRESTON IS A CO-FOUNDER OF THE ONCE BELOVED CHANNEL VIDEO, AND FORMER CEO OF VIACOM.

AND HIS NEW MEMOIR, "UNPLUGGED" REFLECTS ON THE BIRTH OF MTV AND HIS CAREER.

HERE HE IS WITH WALTER ISAACSON.

>> THANK YOU, PAULA.

AND TOM PRESTON, WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> GREAT TO BE HERE, WALTER.

NICE TO SEE YOU.

>> YOU KNOW, I'M GOING CUT RIGHT TO THE CHASE.

IT'S JUST AN AMAZING SCENE IN THIS BUCK "UNPLUGGED. "

I THINK YOU KNOW WHICH ONE IT IS.

IT'S IN A SAUNA, AND IT SORT OF SETS THE WHOLE TONE FOR THE BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT SCENE.

>> WELL, I HAD GONE TO STAAD AT THE INVITATION OF DAVID BOWIE.

WE WERE RECRUITING ROCK STARS TO BE IN OUR "I WANT MY MTV" CAMPAIGN.

THIS WAS EARLY ON IN OUR EXISTENCE, PROBABLY 1983.

AND WE WERE DOING THIS CAMPAIGN TO TRY AND GET OUR FANS TO DEMAND THEIR MTV SO CABLE OPERATORS WOULD CARRY US.

SO WE HAD RECRUITED MICK JAGGER AND PETE TOWNSHEND AND MY ASSIGNMENT WAS TO GET DAVID BOWIE.

AND I CALLED HIS MANAGER, AND SHE SAID, WELL, DAVID IS SKIING IN STAAD.

AND IF YOU WANT TO COME OVER HERE, HE'LL DO IT.

SO GOT ON A PLANE WITH A 35 MILLIMETER CREW.

WE FLEW TO ZURICH.

TOOK A TRAIN TO STAAD.

WE WENT OUT ON THE SLOPES AND DAVID WAS THERE LOOKING GREAT.

HE WAS IN HIS "LET'S DANCE" PHASE.

HE FIGURED OUT WHAT HE WANTED TO DO.

HE WAS GOING TO SKI DOWN THE HILL AND DO A SWOOSH AND SAY "I WANT MY MTV".

>> I WANT MY MTV.

>> SO WE DID A FEW RUNS, AND IT REALLY WENT SMOOTHLY.

HE IS QUITE GOOD AT THAT.

WE WOULD THEN TAKE IT BACK AND POST PRODUCE IT AND PUT THE LOGO THERE.

HE SAID WHY DON'T YOU COME TAKE A SAUNA WITH ME AT THE PALACE HOTEL, WHICH WAS THE GRAND DAME IN GASTAAD.

I TOLD MY CREW, SEE LOSERS LATER.

I'M GOING TAKE A SAUNA AT THE PALACE HOTEL WITH DAVID BOWIE.

WHEN I SHOW UP, WE HAVE A TOWEL AROUND ME, AND WE BOTH WALK INTO THE SEAN.

THAT IT'S REALLY STEAMY.

IT'S THERE IS ONE OTHER GUY IN THERE.

HE'S UP ON A SHELF BASICALLY UP IN THE BACK.

AND IT TURNS OUT IT'S PAUL McCARTNEY.

>> WAIT.

HERE IS WITHIN REASON I ASK YOU TO TELL THAT STORY, BECAUSE IN NORMAL HANDS, THIS WOULD BE PLACE DROPPING, GSTAAD, AND PAUL McCARTNEY AND NAME- DROPPING AND EVERYTHING ELSE.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS YOU SAY IN THE BOOK, BY HITCHHIKING AROUND AND BEING AN ADVENTURE, YOU LEARNED A SENSE OF HUMILITY.

AND THERE IS A SELF- DEPRECATING QUALITY IN THE BOOK THAT MAKES ALL THESE FAMOUS NAMES AND PLACES BECOME FUNNY AS OPPOSED TO ARROGANT OR NAME-DROPPING.

>> WHETHER IT BE ARROGANT OR NAME-DROPPING, THOSE WERE THE TWO GUYS OF THE WHOLE SORT OF ROCK 'N ROLL PANTHEON THAT I WAS THE MOST INTIMIDATED BY.

NORMALLY I WASN'T THAT STAR-STRUCK.

BUT I SAT IN THE SAUNA, AND WE KIND OF --THEY WANTED TO KNOW ABOUT MTV, BECAUSE NEITHER OF THEM HAD REALLY SEEN IT.

WE TALKED ABOUT THIS AND THAT AND THREW SOME WATER ON THE ROCKS.

AND FOR A HALF HOUR, LITTLE TOM FROM MY HOME IN CONNECTICUT WAS IN THERE WITH THESE TWO HUGE STARS.

THEY COULDN'T HAVE BEEN NICER.

IT WAS A GREAT EXPERIENCE.

AND PROBABLY ONE OF MY GREATEST STORIES OF ALL MY YEARS THERE.

>> SO, WAIT, LET'S GET FROM CONNECTICUT.

SUBURBAN KID, GROWING UP IN A VERY CONVENTIONAL THING.

HOW ALL OF THE SUDDEN FORGET ABOUT GETTING TO GSTAAD.

HOW ALL OF THE SUDDEN YOU WERE HITCHHIKING AROUND THE WORLD AND DOING ALL THESE ADVENTURES.

WHERE DID THAT RISK GENE COME FROM?

>> WELL, ONE THAT HAS SORT OF A PENT-UP DESIRE TO TRAVEL.

MY DAD NEVER WANTED TO GO ANYWHERE.

SO WE WENT NOWHERE AS A KID.

I WENT OFF TO COLLEGE.

IN THOSE DAYS YOU COULD HITCHHIKE.

I FOUND THIS FREEDOM ON THE ROAD.

AND ALSO, I HAD FALLEN IN LOVE WITH THE LITERATURE OF THE BEATS WHERE EXPERIENCE WAS THE THING AND YOU COULD TRAVEL AND GET OUT ON THE ROAD.

IT'S THE GREAT CLASSROOM.

AND I GRADUALLY BUILT UP CONFIDENCE TO KIND OF GO ANYWHERE.

I WAS WORKING IN AN AD AGENCY.

AND THEY WERE GOING TO ASSIGN ME TO CHARMIN TOILET PAPER, OF ALL THINGS.

I HAD A MOMENT.

I SAID MAN, I CAN'T DO THIS.

BUT THEN THIS GIRL CALLED ME FROM PARIS I KNEW, AN OLD GIRLFRIEND.

SHE SAID FORGET IT.

YOU CAN'T SELL TOILET PAPER.

COME WITH ME, I'M GOING TO CROSS THE SAHARA.

AND THAT SOUNDED LIKE A GOOD IDEA.

I QUIT MY JOB.

I WAS ON A PLANE A WEEK LATER.

>> AND YOU SAY YOU GOT OFF THE FERRY IN TANGIER.

AS SOON AS I DISEMBARKED, I WAS HIT WITH A HIGH I WOULD CHASE THE REST OF MY LIFE, THE PECULIAR JOY OF DISORIENTATION.

EXPLAIN THAT ONE TO ME.

>> WELL, YOU KNOW, YOU CAN SAY IT'S A BIT OF CULTURE SHOCK.

I HAD NEVER REALLY BEEN ANYWHERE THAT SEEMED THAT UNUSUAL.

WHEN YOU'RE IN A PLACE WHERE YOU DON'T KNOW WHERE YOU ARE ESSENTIALLY, EVERYTHING SEEMS A LOT MORE VIVID AND ALIVE.

YOU HEAR THE CALL TO PRAYER AND YOU THINK YOU'RE IN SOME KIND OF TIME CAPSULE.

SO I LOVED THE FEELING OF BEING UNCOMFORTABLE.

AND THEN HAVING TO ADJUST TO THIS NEW ALTITUDE.

AND I WOULD SPEND A LOT OF MY LIFE IN PLACES IN WHAT WE USED TO CALL THE THIRD WORLD, TRAVELING AROUND.

AND BEING IN ENVIRONMENTS THAT WERE RADICALLY DIFFERENT FROM EVERYTHING I HAD GROWN UP AND BEEN AROUND, YOU KNOW, BEFOREHAND.

>> SO HOW DID MTV GET STARTED?

>> WELL, IT GOT STARTED WITH WARNER COMMUNICATIONS AND AMERICAN EXPRESS HAD A JOINT VENTURE CALLED WARNERAMICS.

AND CABLE TV WAS GETTING STARTED.

THE NOTION WAS RATHER THAN BEING A BROADCASTER, WE'RE GOING TO HAVE SPECIALIZED CHANNELS FOR NICHES FOR SPECIALIZED AUDIENCES.

WE WERE SORT OF THE TIP IN THE SPEAR THAT THAT GROUP AS CABLE WAS BEING LAID ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

IT WAS -- YOU KNOW, CABLE DIDN'T REALLY REACH THE BIG CITIES UNTIL YEARS LATER.

BUT IN THE EARLY '80 s, THAT'S WHEN THESE -- THESE BRANDS THAT WE KNOW TODAY LIKE ESPN AND MTV REALLY GOT FORMED AND STARTED.

IT WAS ALL VERY ENTREPRENEURIAL AND SEAT OF YOUR PANTS AND REALLY DONE ON A LOW COST.

>> MTV WAS NOT JUST A BUSINESS, IT WAS ACTUALLY A CULTURAL REVOLUTION.

IT JUST CHANGED THE WAY MUSIC WAS.

WHEN YOU HELPED FOUND IT AND THEN RAN IT, DID YOU SEE IT AS JUST ANOTHER CABLE BUSINESS ENTERPRISE, OR DID YOU SEE THERE WAS SOME SORT OF MISSION THERE?

>> OH, NO.

WE WERE ON A MISSION.

I MEAN, EVERYTHING WHO WORKED THERE, AND WE WORKED FOR VERY LITTLE MONEY, WE WERE ON A CRUSADE.

WE WANTED TO SWEEP THE NATION, AND ULTIMATELY THE WORLD WITH THIS NEW MUSICAL INVENTION THAT WE THOUGHT WAS IRRESISTIBLE.

WE BELIEVED IN THE POWER OF MUSIC.

MUSIC WAS A REAL POWERFUL FORCE AT THE TIME.

THERE HAD BEEN NOTHING LIKE THIS ON TELEVISION.

PEOPLE HAD NEVER SEEN MUSIC VIDEOS.

SO IT WAS A WHOLE NEW VISUAL VOCABULARY WE WERE THROWING AT PEOPLE.

AND IT'S HARD TO THINK TODAY HOW REVOLUTIONARY MTV WAS IN ITS EARLIER YEARS, BUT IT REALLY WAS UNLIKE ANYTHING PEOPLE HAD SEEN BEFORE ON TELEVISION.

SO PEOPLE WOULD SPEND UNTOLD HOURS WATCHING MTV.

IT REALLY CREATED --IT REALLY GENERATED A CREATIVE RENAISSANCE IN THE VIDEO BUSINESS, IN THE MUSIC BUSINESS, AND IT BECAME A REAL FORCE.

WE BECAME LIKE THE BIGGEST RADIO STATION IN THE NATION.

AND THEN WE DROVE IT INTERNATIONALLY.

WE BECAME THE WORLD'S FIRST REALLY INTERNATIONAL NETWORK.

CNN WAS INTERNATIONAL, BUT THEY WERE MOSTLY IN HOTELS.

WE ACTUALLY HAD 50 VERSIONS IN DIFFERENT LANGUAGES SET UP IN DIFFERENT COUNTRIES THAT REALLY WENT OUT TO PEOPLE'S HOMES.

>> I REMEMBER WHEN MTV WOULD JUST CREATE HITS.

SOMEBODY LIKE MYSELF SAY OKAY, THIS JUST CAME OUT.

I'M GOING GET IT.

NOWADAYS WITH SO MUCH NICHE MEDIA AND STREAMING AND EVERYTHING ELSE, HOW HAS THAT CHANGED THE WAY MUSIC HITS CAN BE CREATED?

>> IT MAKES IT REALLY DIFFICULT.

I MEAN, THERE IS MORE PEOPLE MAKING MUSIC THAT SEEMS LESS REMARKABLE.

THERE USED TO BE 40 RECORD COMPANIES.

NOW THERE IS TWO AND A HALF RECORD COMPANIES BASICALLY.

AND THERE IS NO MONO CULTURE.

THERE IS NO MASS OF MEDIUM.

TAYLOR SWIFT IS REALLY THE EXCEPTION TO THE CASE.

A COUPLE OF OTHERS THAT REALLY CROSS OVER TO DIFFERENT DEMOGRAPHICS.

IT'S HARD TO DISCOVER NEW MUSIC.

I MEAN, IF YOU'RE YOUNGER, YOU GET IT THROUGH WORD OF MOUTH.

BUT IF YOU'RE AN OLDER PERSON IN YOUR 30s, 40s, 50s, IT'S HARD TO REALLY KNOW WHERE NEW MUSIC IS COMING FROM.

PEOPLE TEND TO GO ON TO SPOOTIFY -- SPOTIFY AND LISTEN TO ARTISTS.

YOU DON'T GET EXPOSURE TO DIFFERENT TYPES OF MUSIC OTHER THAN THE TYPE YOU LISTENED TO IN THE FIRST PLACE.

>> ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS YOU HELPED START OF COURSE WAS COMEDY CENTRAL.

THAT LAUNCHED THE CAREERS OF SO MANY PEOPLE LIKE JON STEWART, STEPHEN COLBERT, JOHN OLIVER, JIMMY KIMMEL, BELMAR TOO.

ALL OF THEM BECAME IN SOME WAYS POLITICAL DEFINING NOT JUST HUMOR, BUT POLITICS TOO.

I THINK "SOUTH PARK" WAS PART OF THAT WHOLE THING.

>> "SOUTH PARK," YEAH.

>> IT'S PART NOW OF THE CULTURAL RESISTANCE, BOTH OF THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION AND OTHER THINGS.

ARE YOU SURPRISED THAT COMEDIANS HAVE EMERGED AS SORT OF THE RESISTANCE?

>> YES.

YOU KNOW, GOING BACK TO THE LATE '60s AND EARLY '70s WHEN THERE WAS RESISTANCE TO THE WAR AND TO RICHARD NIXON, IT WAS LARGELY MUSICIANS WHO KIND OF LED THE CHARGE AND CERTAIN CULTURAL FIGURES.

IT CERTAINLY WASN'T COMEDIANS.

COMEDIANS REALLY DIDN'T HAVE THIS TYPE OF EDGE.

RIGHT NOW YOU DON'T HEAR ANYTHING FROM MUSICIAN.

NO ONE IS STANDING UP AT THESE COMMITTEES.

THEY ARE THE FRONT LINE.

AND I REALLY GOT SAY, ALL OF THESE PEOPLE, THE LEADERS OF THIS NEW LINE OF RESISTANCE, THROW DAVE CHAPPELLE IN THERE ALSO, ALL GOT THEIR TV START ON COMEDY CENTRAL.

AMY SCHUMER IS ANOTHER ONE.

AND THEY HAVE A BIG IMPACT.

YOU SAW THE IMPACT THEY HAD IN THE CUT OF THE FOLLOWING THEY'VE BEEN ABLE TO ESTABLISH WHEN YOU SAW ABC DROPPED JIMMY KIMMEL AND HAD TO PUT IT BACK ON.

>> LET'S DRILL DOWN ON THAT.

ARE YOU WORRIED ABOUT THE PRESSURE?

ABC HAD TO DROP JIMMY KIMMEL, PARTLY BECAUSE THE ADMINISTRATION, SOME BLOWBACK ON POLITICS.

ARE YOU FEARFUL THAN WE'RE GETTING TO SUPPRESS THE TYPE OF FREE SPEECH THAT MAKES COMEDY SO IMPORTANT?

>> YES AND NO.

I MEAN, IN THIS JIMMY KIMMEL INSTANCE, I THINK IN THE CALCULUS OF DETERMINING --ABC DETERMINING WHAT TO DO, THEY LEFT OUT ONE COHORT, WHICH WAS THE AUDIENCE.

AND I JUST KNOW FROM EXPERIENCE FROM THE EARLY MTV DAYS, WHEN WE USED TO BE THROWN OFF CABLE SYSTEMS FOR ONE REASON OR ANOTHER, THE FANS WOULD ALWAYS DEMAND IT TO GET BACK.

SOMETIMES WE WOULD FAN THE FLAMES OF THEIR DISCONTENT.

BUT THEY'RE VERY POWERFUL.

AND YOU SAW IN THE CASE HERE, YOU KNOW, THEY CANCELED, I DON'T KNOW, A MILLION AND A HALF STREAMING SUBSCRIPTIONS FOR DISNEY.

THEY DID A LOT OF REPUTATIONAL AND ECONOMIC DAMAGE.

SO YOU CAN'T JUST --I DON'T THINK IT'S THAT EASY.

YES, YOU COULD SMOTHER IT IF YOU REALLY WANT TO BE RUTHLESS.

BUT THESE COMEDIANS, IT'S GOING TO BE HARD TO SUPPRESS THEM, UNLESS THEY START CARTING AWAY THESE PEOPLE AND SENDING THEM INTO EL SALVADOR.

I DON'T SEE THEY'RE GOING SHUT THEM UP.

>> THROUGHOUT THIS BOOK I WATCHED YOU REBEL AGAINST THE CORPORATE OVERLORD US YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH AT MTV, VIACOM AND PARAMOUNT.

AND THEN AS IF THE GOOD LORD HAD A PERVERSE SENSE OF HUMOR, SUDDENLY YOU BECOME THE CEO.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE MOVING FROM BEING A REBELLIOUS DIVISION HEAD TO SOMEBODY WHO HAD TO BE A CEO?

>> IT WAS A CHANGE FOR ME, BECAUSE RUNNING MTV NETWORKS, EVERY ONE OF OUR NETWORKS WAS SORT OF OUT OF THE MAINSTREAM AND ON THE SIDELINES, AND SORT OF A RADICAL AND EXPERIMENTAL.

NOW I'M HAVING TO DEAL WITH CREATIVE PEOPLE AND ANIMATORS.

IT WAS A PLACE WHERE EVERYTHING I LOVE KIND OF CAME TOGETHER.

BUT WHEN I GOT ELEVATED TO CEO OF VIACOM, NOW ALL OF THE SUDDEN I'M DEALING WITH BANKER, I'M DEALING WITH WALL STREET, I'M DEALING WITH EARNING CALLS, A WHOLE BUNCH OF OTHER THINGS.

IT WAS A NECESSARY STEP.

YOU CAN'T STAY A CHILD FOREVER.

BUT, YOU KNOW, IT SEEMED TO BE SOMETHING THAT I LIKED MORE.

BUT I WAS ABLE TO KIND OF GET GOING AND GET IN THE GROOVE.

AND I THOUGHT IT WOULD BE A WAY TO KIND OF IMPROVE MY SKILL SET AND MOVE MY CAREER AHEAD.

BUT I ONLY HAD EIGHT MONTHS AT IT BEFORE I WAS CASHIER.

>> YOU SAID EVEN WHEN YOU TOOK OVER AS CEO OF VIACOM, YOU SAID "I KNEW I WAS GOING TO BE FIRED. ""

WHAT WAS THAT?

>> WELL, MYS BE, SUMNER REDSTONE, HE FIRED ALL MY PREDECESSORS.

HE WAS A VERY --HE ALWAYS WOULD DO IT ON HOLIDAY WEEKENDS.

THERE WAS A FRANK BIONDI, A REALLY COMPETENT GUY, DID A GREAT JOB.

BUT HE BEGAN TO GET A LITTLE MORE ATTENTION THAN SUMNER LIKED, SO HE WAS OUT.

HE WAS OUT ON A MEMORIAL, ON A FOURTH OF JULY WEEKEND.

AND THEN MEL CARMESON CAME IN.

HE GOT FIRED ON THE FOURTH OF JULY.

I GOT FIRED ON LABOR DAY.

SO I USED TO THINK IF YOU MADE IT THROUGH LABOR DAY, YOU PROBABLY HAD A WHOLE ANOTHER YEAR WITHOUT HAVING TO WORRY ABOUT BEING DUSTED.

>> IN SOME WAYS, SUMNER REDSTONE IS ALMOST A HUMOROUS VILLAIN IN THIS BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT YOUR RELATIONSHIP WITH SUMNER REDSTONE.

>> WELL, HE IS AN INTERESTING GUY.

I MEAN, HE CAME IN AT THE AGE 65 TO TAKE OVER VIACOM IN A VERY BIG BATTLE OF THE '80s TO KIND OF DISPOSE OF THE CURRENT MANAGEMENT AND BEGIN TO BUILD A HOLLYWOOD EMPIRE, WHICH HE DID DO.

HE WAS VERY SMART.

HE WAS VERY TENACIOUS.

HE WAS LAWYER WHO WASN'T AFRAID TO SUE ANYBODY.

HE MADE LAWSUITS LIKE A WHOLE NEW PROFIT CENTER.

HE'D BE SUING HALF OUR CUSTOMERS.

AND I GOT ALONG WITH HIM BECAUSE PRIMARILY, I HAD GONE TO SEE HIM BEFORE HE TOOK OVER THE COMPANY AND GAVE HIM A BILL OF GOODS ABOUT WHAT WE COULD BE IF WE JUST HAD THE RIGHT RESOURCES, WHICH HE PROVIDED US.

HE KIND OF LET US RUN WITH A PRETTY LIGHT HAND.

I THINK IT WAS 65, 70 QUARTERS IN A ROW WE DELIVERED.

SOY WAS NOT A PROBLEM TO HIM.

PEOPLE WHO WERE, WERE OUT PRETTY FAST.

AND HE HAD A SENSE OF HUMOR.

HE WASN'T LIKE --HE WASN'T LIKE THE WORST GUY TO BE AROUND, BUT HE COULD BE RUTHLESS WHEN HE WANTED TO.

BUT THERE ALWAYS SEEMED TO BE A THING, HE WANTED TO BE IN CHARGE.

SO HE WAS NOT GOING TO TAKE INTEREST ANYTHING.

AND HE WANTED TO FIRE TOM CRUISE.

THAT'S WHEN THINGS STARTED TO UNRAVEL BETWEEN ME AND HIM BECAUSE HE THOUGHT "MISSION: IMPOSSIBLE" DIDN'T DO AS WELL AS IT WAS BECAUSE HE WAS JUMPING UP AND DOWN ON OPRAH'S COUCH AND DESTROYING HIS REPUTATION, THAT PEOPLE HATED HIM.

HE WENT OUT AND TOLD "THE WALL STREET JOURNAL" AND SAID I'M GOING TO FIRE TOM CRUISE.

TOM CRUISE DOESN'T REALLY WORK FOR YOU.

THAT'S NOT SOMETHING YOU CAN ACTUALLY DO.

>> SUMNER REDSTONE'S DAUGHTER, SHARI REDSTONE SOLD YOUR OLD COMPANY PARAMOUNT AND SETTLED LAWSUITS WITH DONALD TRUMP IN ORDER TO GET IT THROUGH.

TELL ME WHAT YOU THINK OF THE WAY SHE HANDLED THAT.

>> WELL, I WAS NOT A FAN.

SHE REALLY BENT THE KNEE AND ALMOST STARTED A TREND THAT WE SAW AFFECT A LOT OF OTHER MEDIA CONSOLIDATIONS AND THINGS.

I THINK SHE FELT THE DRUMBEAT OF THIS THING COMING WHICH IF SHE DIDN'T CLOSE THIS DEAL BY OCTOBER 1st, SHE WOULD HAVE TO PAY THE ELLISONS, DAVID ELLISON AND HIS FATHER $400 MILLION KILL FEE, WHICH IS A LOT OF MONEY, WHICH WOULD HAVE PUT AN ALREADY SUFFERING PARAMOUNT INTO A MORE OF A DEATH SPIRAL.

AND THE ONLY WAY SHE WAS GOING TO GET IT DONE AND PASS THE FTC, FCC WAS TO BE NICE TO DONALD TRUMP.

AND THAT'S WHAT SHE DID.

AND IN THE PROCESS, COMPROMISED WHAT HAD BEEN ONE OF THE GREAT TELEVISION NEWS ORGANIZATIONS THAT THE COUNTRY HAD EVER SEEN.

SO IT WAS A -- A DISAPPOINTMENT, BIG DISAPPOINTMENT TO THE PEOPLE WHO WORKED THERE.

>> LOOKING AT TODAY'S CULTURAL LANDSCAPE WITH STREAMING WARS, ALGORITHM- DRIVEN CONTENT, THIS --WE DON'T HAVE SHARED CULTURAL THINGS LIKE MTV CREATING A HIT ON ANY GIVEN WEEK.

WHAT IS THAT GOING TO DO TO STORYTELLING AND CREATIVITY?

>> WELL, GOOD STORYTELLING, IF YOU'RE A GOOD STORYTELLER, YOU CAN STILL HAVE A HIT.

I MEAN, WE SEE THAT NOW.

THERE ARE HITS ON THESE VARIES STREAMING SERVICES.

THE PROBLEM IS AS A CONSUMER, THERE ARE SO MANY MORE CHOICES THAN THERE EVER USED TO BE.

IF YOU HAVE A HIT, WHICH IS REALLY THE RARE THING, WORD WILL GET AROUND AND MORE AND MORE PEOPLE WILL WATCH IT.

BUT IT'S HARDER TO HAVE A HIT RECORD.

IT'S HARDER TO HAVE A HIT TV SHOW.

AND IT'S NOT AS IF PEOPLE AREN'T LOOKING, BUT THE ATTENTION SPANS ARE SHORT.

SOCIAL MEDIA IS A BIGGER FACTOR.

YOU KNOW, PEOPLE KEEP SAYING HOW INTERESTING TIKTOK IS.

AND IF YOU EVER SPEND ANY TIME ON TIKTOK, MAYBE THIS IS TALKING LIKE AN OLD PERSON, THERE DOESN'T SEEM TO BE A LOT TO ENGAGE THERE OTHER THAN THAT QUICK SENSATIONALISM AND MOVING ALONG.

IF YOU HAVE SOMETHING GOOD AND YOU'RE IN THE MOOD, PEOPLE WILL SIT DOWN AND WATCH A LONG MOVIE OR SPEND 50 HOURS GOING THROUGH EPISODIC TELEVISION SERIES.

>> TOM FRESTON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> IT'S GOOD, WALTER.

NICE TO TALK TO YOU.

THANK YOU.

> >> AND FINALLY FOR US, HE'S KNOWN AS YUKA, AND HE HAD BEEN FROZEN FOR ALMOST 40 THOUSAND YEARS.

AND NOW THIS JUVENILE WOOLLY MAMMOTH'S RNA IS THE OLDEST TO EVER BE SEQUENCED BY SCIENTISTS.

IT WAS EXTRACTED FROM MUMMIFIED LEG TISSUE THAT HAD BEEN EXTREMELY WELL PRESERVED.

I KNOW IT DOESN'T LOOK LIKE IT, BUT IT WAS, FOR MILLENNIA IN SIBERIAN PERMAFROST.

RESEARCHERS ARE USING THE RNA TO FIGURE OUT WHICH OF THE MAMMOTH'S GENES WERE ACTIVE AT THE TIME OF ITS DEATH.

AN AMAZING FEAT, REALLY, THAT NOW OPENS UP A NEW AVENUE OF SCIENTIFIC RESEARCH INTO THE PAST.

> >> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.

ORG/AMANPOUR.

I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & CO. "

JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.

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> >> "AMANPOUR & CO. "

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY --THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS CANDACE KING WEIR THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND CHARLES ROSENBLUM MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.