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>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

I ASK SOUTH AFRICA'S FOREIGN MINISTER, RONALD LAMOLA, WHAT ARE THESE MYSTERY FLIGHTS CARRYING HUNDREDS OF PALESTINIANS FROM GAZA INTO THE COUNTRY?

AND WHY IS THE U.S.

BOYCOTTING THE G20 SUMMIT IT'S HOSTING?

>> THE DOORS ARE STILL OPEN BECAUSE THEY'RE NOT EXCELLED.

THEY DECIDED ON THEIR OWN.

>>> PLUS THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IN AMERICA FIGHTS BACK UNDER POPE LEO'S LEADERSHIP AGAINST THE DEHUMANIZING MASS ROUND UPS AND IMMIGRATION RAIDS ON TERRIFIED COMMUNITIES.

NEW JERSEY CATHOLIC PRIEST ALEXANDER SANTORA TELLS US WHAT'S HAPPENING TO HIS OWN PARISHIONERS.

AND -- >> I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A PROBLEM THAT IS GOING TO LAST FOREVER.

>> AS THE U.S.

ALSO BOYCOTTED THIS YEAR'S COP30 CLIMATE SUMMIT IN BRAZIL PULITZER PRIZEWINNER ELIZABETH KOLBERT SPEAKS TO HARRY SREENIVASAN ABOUT HER NEW BOOK, "LIFE ON A LITTLE-KNOWN PLANET."

>>> "AMANPOUR AND COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY -- THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.

JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.

CANDACE KING WEIR.

THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM.

THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS.

THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION.

THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.

CHARLES ROSENBLUM.

MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.

KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.

BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.

AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN NEW YORK.

WE BEGIN, THOUGH, IN SOUTH AFRICA WHERE THE G20 IS PREPARING TO KICK OFF THIS WEEKEND.

IT'S SUPPOSED TO BE WHERE THE WORLD'S MAJOR POWERS COME TOGETHER TO TACKLE THE BIGGEST CHALLENGES FROM ECONOMIC STABILITY TO CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND IT IS THE FIRST G20 TO BE HELD ON THE AFRICAN CONTINENT, BUT THIS YEAR'S SUMMIT IN JOHANNESBURG BEGINS WITH SOMETHING EXTRAORDINARY.

VIRTUALLY NO SENIOR U.S.

PRESENCE.

PRESIDENT TRUMP, VICE PRESIDENT VANCE, SECRETARY RUBIO ARE ALL SKIPPING IT.

TRUMP MAKING CLEAR HIS VIEWS ON SOUTH AFRICA.

>> I'M NOT GOING TO SOUTH AFRICA FOR THE G20 BECAUSE I THINK THEIR POLICIES ON THE EXTERMINATION OF PEOPLE ARE UNACCEPTABLE, SO I'M NOT GOING, SO I WON'T REFER TO ANYTHING HAVING TO DO WITH SOUTH AFRICA.

SOUTH AFRICA HAS BEHAVED EXTREMELY BADLY.

>> NOW, THE SOUTH AFRICAN PRESIDENT, STEERING WHEEL RAM POSA, CALLS THE U.S.

ABSENCE THEIR LOSS.

EXPERTS SAY DISENGAGING SIMPLY ALLOWS OTHER COUNTRIES, COMPETITORS TO FILL THE U.S.

LEADERSHIP VACUUM.

ALL OF IT UNFOLDS AS SOUTH AFRICA IS NOW CONFRONTING ANOTHER EXPECTED CRISIS, MYSTERY FLIGHTS CARRYING PALESTINIANS FROM GAZA INTO THEIR COUNTRY, WHICH OFFICIALS FEAR COULD SIGNAL AN EFFORT TO REMOVE PALESTINIANS FROM THEIR OWN HOMELAND.

SOUTH AFRICAN FOREIGN MINISTER, RONALD LAMOLA, IS JOINING ME NOW FROM JOHANNESBURG.

FOREIGN MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU VERY MUCH, CHRISTIANE, AND TO ALL THE VIEWERS.

>> THANK YOU.

LOOK, I'M GOING TO GET TO THE ISSUE OF THE GAZANS, BUT I ALSO WANT TO TALK ABOUT WHAT'S UPCOMING IN YOUR COUNTRY, AND THAT IS HOSTING THIS IMPORTANT G20 FOR THE VERY FIRST TIME ON THE AFRICAN CONTINENT.

SO, YOU KNOW, I QUOTED YOUR OWN PRESIDENT WHO SAYS ITS THEIR LOSS IF THEY'RE NOT COMING.

FIRST YOUR REACTION TO WHAT YOU MIGHT HAVE HEARD PRESIDENT TRUMP SAYING IN THE OVAL OFFICE THAT WE JUST PLAYED, THAT ALL THESE POLICIES, YOUR DISCRIMINATION AGAINST MEMBERS OF THE SOUTH AFRICAN COMMUNITY, HE MEANS THE WHITES, MAKE IT, YOU KNOW, SOMEWHERE WHERE HE'S NOT GOING TO GO.

>> YEAH, THANK YOU.

IT IS, INDEED, A GREAT WEEK FOR US.

WE ARE A BIT IN SOUTH AFRICA IT FEELS LIKE THE 2010 FIFA WORLD CUP, WHICH WAS HOSTED FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE AFRICAN SOIL IN SOUTH AFRICA.

SIMILARLY G20 FOR THE FIRST TIME IN THE AFRICAN SOIL, IT WILL BE HOSTED IN SOUTH AFRICA.

AND WE ARE VERY UPBEAT TO SHINE A SPOTLIGHT ON A NUMBER OF CHALLENGES TAT ARE FACING THE AFRICAN CONTINENT, ISSUES RELATED TO CLIMATE CHANGE, FINANCING FOR DEVELOPMENT.

AS YOU ARE AWARE WE ONLY RECEIVE LESS THAN 5% OF CLIMATE MITIGATION FINANCE, WHEREAS WE ARE THE MOSTLY DISPROPORTIONATELY AFFECTED BY CLIMATE CHANGE.

SO THIS PLATFORM OFFER US AN OPPORTUNITY TO BRING THESE TO THE ATTENTION OF THE WORLD AND THE G20 COUNTRIES TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUES, ISSUES OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND SO FORTH.

I DID HEAR PRESIDENT TRUMP WITH REGARDS TO WHAT YOU SAID HE HAS SAID IN THE WHITE HOUSE YESTERDAY, WHICH IS NOT BASED ON ANY TRUTHFUL INFORMATION WITH REGARDS TO SOUTH AFRICA.

SOUTH AFRICA HAS GOT A HISTORY OF APARTHEID, A HISTORY OF INEQUALITY WHICH WAS RACE-BASED.

AND THERE IS A NEED TO HAVE POLICIES THAT ARE AIMED TO ADDRESS THIS ISSUES OF THE PAST -- THE PAST IMBALANCES ON THE BASIS OF RACE.

AND THESE POLICIES ARE INFORMED BY OUR CONSTITUTION, AND THERE IS ENOUGH SAFE GUARDS.

THERE IS COURT, THERE IS PARLIAMENT, THERE IS DEBATES INCLUDING ORGANIZATIONS OF AFRICANERS DO HAVE CHALLENGES IN OUR COUNTRY, BUT THEY BELIEVE THAT THERE IS ENOUGH SAFE GUARDS WITHIN THE COUNTRY WITHIN THE ITS CONSTITUTION TO ADDRESS ALL THE ISSUES THAT THE COUNTRY MIGHT BE SUFFERING AND INCLUDING THE CRIME CHALLENGE THAT WE ARE FACING.

IT AFFECTS EVERYONE -- BLACK, WHITE, INDIANS.

ALL RACES ARE AFFECTED BY CRIME, SO THERE IS NO TARGETED PERSECUTION OF ANY RACE.

SO FROM OUR PERSPECTIVE THE G20 WILL GO ON.

THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE PRESENT WILL HAVE TO TAKE A DECISION ON A DECLARATION OR ON A -- BUT THE G20 MUST GO ON, MUST BE ABLE TO MAKE DECISIONS AND MUST FOCUS ON THE PRIORITIES THAT SOUTH AFRICA HAS PUT ON THE TABLE THAT RELATES TO THE THEME.

AND ALL THE OVERARCHING PRIORITIES THAT ARE ON THE TABLE.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, I'M JUST GOING TO QUOTE YOUR OWN POLICE STATISTICS.

THEY DO NOT SHOW THAT WHITE PEOPLE ARE MORE VULNERABLE TO VIOLENT CRIME THAN OTHERS IN SOUTH AFRICA.

AS YOU MENTION BLACK SOUTH AFRICANS CONTINUE TO LAG BEHIND WHITE SOUTH AFRICANS BY VIRTUALLY EVERY ECONOMIC MEASURE.

SO I JUST WANT TO GET YOUR TAKE ON THE FACT THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS DRAMATICALLY REDUCED THE BIDEN ADMINISTRATION'S FIGURES ON REFUGEES IT ACCEPTS.

I BELIEVE IT WAS 125,000 ANNUALLY UNDER BIDEN.

NOW IT IS 7,500.

WHITE SOUTH AFRICANS ARE GETTING PRIORITY.

WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU ABOUT PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PRIORITIES FOR THE UNITED STATES AND ACTUALLY FOR AFRICA?

>> YES, YOU ARE CORRECT.

OUT OF 252 CRIME ATTACKS RELATED TO IN THE FARMING COMMUNITIES, 150 INVOLVED FARM WHO ARE LARGELY BLACK.

ABOUT 100 INVOLVES FARM OWNERS WHO ARE LARGELY WHITE.

BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT ALL THE CRIME STATISTICS YOU WILL THEN REALIZE CRIME AFFECTS EVERYONE INCLUDING IN THE FARMING AREAS, SO THERE'S NO EVIDENCE THAT BACKS THIS TARGETED PERSECUTION.

AND AS YOU HAVE ALREADY SAID, INDEED OUR ECONOMY IS STILL LARGELY ON THE BASIS OF RACE WITH THE WHITE SOUTH AFRICAN ON THE UPPER PART OF THE PYRAMID.

BUT THIS IS NOT IN ANY WAY A BASIS OF TARGETING ANY PARTICULAR RACE FOR CRIME.

SO CRIME DO AFFECTS EVERYONE.

BUT ALSO IN TERMS OF OUR CONSTITUTION, WE HAVE TO ADDRESS THE IMBALANCES OF THE PAST.

>> YES.

>> IT'S AN ECONOMIC IMPERATIVE, AND THIS IS A DISCUSSION THAT HAPPENS AMONGST ALL -- ALL SOUTH AFRICANS.

AND WE, AS YOU HAVE SAID WITH REGARDS TO THE PROBLEM OF REFUGEE, AS WHEN YOU LOOK AT IT, IT'S RACE-BASED.

FIRSTLY, YOU MUST BE A WHITE SOUTH AFRICAN.

AND SECONDLY, YOU MUST BE AN AFRICANER.

SO IT'S A RACE-BASED REFUGEE PROGRAM.

IT'S NOT IN LINE WITH THE GENEVA CONVENTION, THAT SOMEONE TO QUALIFY TO BE A REFUGEE SHOULD BE PERSECUTED, SHOULD BE RUNNING FROM A WAR, AND ALL THOSE.

THIS IS JUST A RACE.

BASED POLICY POSITION.

SO IN OUR -- IN OUR CONTEXT IT DOES NOT FEED THE DEFINITION OF A REFUGEE IN LINE WITH THE GENEVA CONVENTION, SO IT CAN ONLY BE AIMED FOR A PARTICULAR AGENDA THAT WE BELIEVE IS BEING PURSUED BY THE -- BY THE AMERICAN GOVERNMENT BECAUSE THERE'S NO REAL BASIS AT ALL TO HAVE A RACE-BASED REFUGEE POLICY.

SO IT IS IN THIS REGARD THAT WE DO NOT SEE ANYTHING WRONG WITH THE G20 CONTINUING IN SOUTH AFRICA FOCUSING ON THE AGENDA OF THE G20, WHICH THE PRESIDENT OF SOUTH AFRICA HAS SET THE AGENDA, SET THE TEAM TO DRIVE ISSUES OF SOLIDARITY, EQUALITY, AND SUSTAINABILITY, AND TO LOOK AT ISSUES OF CRITICAL MINERALS, WHICH THE AFRICAN CONTINENT, ABOUT 30% OF THE CRITICAL MINERALS THE WORLD NEEDS ARE IN THE AFRICAN CONTINENT.

SO IT IS AN OPPORTUNITY AND PLATFORM TO THINK ABOUT HOW WE SUCH ISSUES OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE SO THAT THE CONTINENT IS NOT ONLY A RECEIVER AND CONSUMER BUT ALSO ON THE RESEARCH AND THE INNOVATIVE SIDE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, BUT ALSO NOT JUST THE CONTINENT BUT ALSO THE GLOBAL SOUTH IS BROUGHT INTO THE PICTURE IN TERMS OF THE GLOBAL FINANCIAL ARCHITECTURE, ITS REFORM, AND THE PACT OF THE FUTURE THAT WAS ADOPTED AT THE U.N.

GENERAL ASSEMBLY, AND ALSO THE FINANCING FOR DEVELOPMENT AGENDA.

>> OKAY, FOREIGN MINISTER -- >> WAS ADOPTED.

>> RIGHT.

>> SO ALL THESE ARE ISSUES THAT WE LOOK FORWARD TO SEE IN THE DECLARATION OF THE LEADER SUMMIT, AND IT WILL DEFINITELY BE SUCCESSFUL.

>> OKAY.

I WANT TO ASK YOU ABOUT THIS OTHER BIG, KIND OF MYSTERIOUS ISSUE THAT NOBODY CAN QUITE GET TO THE BOTTOM OF.

AND I UNDERSTAND YOUR GOVERNMENT IS ALSO TRYING TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S HAPPENING.

SO WE REPORTED IN THE LEAD UP TO YOU THAT IN THE LAST WEEK OR SO SOME 150 PALESTINIANS ARRIVED IN SOUTH AFRICA.

THEY, YOU APPEARED CAUGHT OFF-GUARD SAYING THEY HAD NO DEPARTURE STAMPS OR ACCOMMODATIONS LISTED.

THEY DO HAVE VALID PASSPORTS.

MANY OF THEM HAD TO WAIT ON THE PLANE ON THE TARMAC IN SOUTH AFRICA FOR HOURS.

COULD YOU PLEASE TELL ME WHAT YOU UNDERSTAND AND WHAT YOU UNDERSTOOD THEN ABOUT THESE PLANE LOADS OR THIS PLANELOAD OF APPARENTLY GAZANS TRANSPORTED FROM ISRAEL TO YOUR COUNTRY?

WHAT IS THIS ALL ABOUT?

>> YEAH, INDEED, WE ARE STILL INVESTIGATING THE MATTER.

AT THIS STAGE WHAT APPEARS TO BE A PROGRAM OF DEPOPULATION OF GAZA, OF PEOPLE FROM GAZA WHO ARE BEING FLOWN ACROSS MANY COUNTRIES ACROSS EUROPE AND SOUTH AFRICA BEING ONE OF THOSE THAT IS TARGETED FOR THIS PROBLEM.

AND IT WAS AGAINST THE BACKGROUND THAT THE PEOPLE HAVE NOWHERE TO GO, AND THEY DIDN'T KNOW EVEN THEMSELVES WHAT WAS THEIR FINAL DESTINATION, WHERE THEY WERE.

AND THEN FROM SOUTH AFRICA WHERE THEY'RE SUPPOSED TO GO TO AND SO FORTH.

THAT THE SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT ON A HUMANITARIAN BASIS DECIDED WE NEED TO ALLOW THEM BECAUSE WE'VE GOT A VISA-FREE REGIME WITH PALESTINE OF 90 DAYS.

BUT THERE WAS NO AGREEMENT WITH THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITY TO KEEP OR TO BRING PALESTINIANS IN SOUTH AFRICA IN THIS MANNER THAT THE FLIGHT CAME.

SO IT WAS A HUMANITARIAN DECISION, AND THEREFORE IT WILL BE A PERIOD OF 90 DAYS.

AND WITHIN THAT 90 DAYS THE SOUTH AFRICAN GOVERNMENT IS INVESTIGATING ALL THE CIRCUMSTANCES THAT LED TO THEM TO COME TO SOUTH AFRICA AND THEN THE WAY FORWARD WITH REGARDS TO ALL THE PEOPLE THAT WERE IN THE FLIGHT.

>> SO YOU SAID YOU DIDN'T KNOW THAT IT WAS COMING.

YOU'VE MADE THESE, YOU KNOW, INTERIM DECLARATIONS ABOUT THEM BEING ALLOWED TO STAY FOR A CERTAIN PERIOD.

ISRAEL HAS SAID THAT A THIRD COUNTRY APPROVED THIS TRANSPORTATION BUT DIDN'T SAY WHICH COUNTRY.

WAS IT SOUTH AFRICA?

I MEAN, DID YOU APPROVE THIS?

I THINK YOU SAID THAT YOU DIDN'T KNOW ABOUT IT.

>> NO, WE DIDN'T APPROVE ANY -- WE DON'T HAVE ANY AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL TO DEPOPULATE OR TO REMOVE PEOPLE FROM GAZA TO SOUTH AFRICA BECAUSE THAT WILL GO AGAINST A RESOLUTION THAT WE SUPPORT OF A TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

A RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS THAT THE PALESTINIANS AND ISRAELIS MUST LIVE SIDE BY SIDE IN THE GAZA STRIP WITH THE PALESTINIAN AUTHORITIES AND ALSO IN JERUSALEM.

IN JERUSALEM ITS CAPITAL.

THERE IS NO WAY WE CAN AGREE TO SUCH AN ARRANGEMENT BECAUSE IT WILL GO AGAINST THAT RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS.

AND WE WILL ALSO NOT ACCEPT ANY FURTHER FLIGHTS OF THIS NATURE JUST BECAUSE IT IS AGAINST THAT RESOLUTION OF THE UNITED NATIONS THAT THERE MUST BE A TWO-STATE SOLUTION AS I'VE ALREADY MENTIONED.

>> FOREIGN MINISTER, THE SPOKESMAN OF THE PRIME MINISTER, WE TRIED TO GET SOME PERSONAL REACTION FROM THEM, BUT THEY'VE ALREADY PUT OUT REACTION BEFORE.

THE PRIME MINISTER HAS MADE IT CLEAR IF PALESTINIANS WANT TO LEAVE THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO LEAVE THE GAZA STRIP, AND IF THEY WANT TO COME BACK TO THE GAZA STRIP, THEY SHOULD BE ALLOWED TO COME BACK.

SO HE'S ALSO SAYING THIS IS NOT A FORCED TRANSFER OR DEPOPULATION, BUT YOU'VE MADE IT CLEAR YOUR VIEW OF THIS.

BUT OBVIOUSLY PALESTINIANS IN GAZA ARE DESPERATE.

STILL DESPITE A CEASE-FIRE, NO SEAREROUS RAMPING UP OF HUMANITARIAN AID.

THE PICTURES ARE HORRENDOUS OF PEOPLE LIVING IN FLOODED WATER IN TENTS, HEAVY RAIN AND CHILDREN, YOU KNOW, ALL THESE CIVILIANS IN LESS THAN HUMANE CONDITION.

I JUST WANT TO PLAY ONE SOUND BITE FROM ONE OF THESE PALESTINIANS WHO DROPPED INTO YOUR TERRITORY FROM GAZA.

THIS IS WHAT HE SAID.

>> AS EVERYONE KNOWS, RAFAH CROSSING HAS BEEN CLOSED.

IT'S NOT OPEN UNTIL NOW, SO WE LEFT THROUGH THE CROSSING AND THEN TO RAMON AIRPORT.

AND THIS WAS REPORTED IN THE MEDIA.

FROM THERE TO NUNAIROBI, KENYA, FOR TRANSPORT.

AFTER THERE WE LEFT WITH NOTHING, NO PERSONAL BELONGINGS, JUST THE CLOTHES WE WERE WEARING.

>> I MEAN, IT IS TRAGIC AND YOU CAN IMAGINE WHY THEY WANTED TO LEAVE.

EVEN THOUGH IT WAS VERY MURKY AS YOU SAID, THEY DIDN'T KNOW WHERE THEY WERE GOING.

APPARENTLY ONE OF THESE GUYS SAID THEY SPENT $2,000 PER TICKET TO GET ON THIS PLANE WHICH WAS ORGANIZED BY A VERY UNKNOWN ORGANIZATION.

YOU'VE MADE YOURSELF CLEAR ON THIS.

I JUST WANT TO ASK YOU ONE LAST QUESTION ABOUT THE G20.

PRESIDENT TRUMP CERTAINLY IN HIS FIRST TERM REFERRED IN DEROGATORY TERMS TO AFRICAN NATIONS, AND THEY DON'T SEEM TO BE ENGAGING MUCH IN AFRICA RIGHT NOW.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER BUSINESS PEOPLE ARE, BUT CERTAINLY THE CHINESE ARE, CERTAINLY THE UNITED ARAB EMIRATES.

THERE'S SUCH A HUGE RESOURCE OF OPPORTUNITY, YOU MENTIONED CRITICAL MINERAL.

WHAT HAPPENS TO U.S.

PROSPECTS IF IT'S NOT INVOLVED IN THIS?

AND IT KIND OF LETS CHINESE AND UAE FILL THIS INTERNATIONAL VACUUM.

>> CHRISTIANE, I CAN CONFIRM THAT THERE IS A HUGE CONTINGENT OF AMERICAN BUSINESS THAT IS PARTICIPATING IN THE SOUTH AFRICA G20, AND THE AMERICAN PEOPLE HAVE PARTICIPATED IN A NUMBER OF WORKING GROUPS THAT INVOLVE AMERICAN CITIZENS THAT WERE ABLE TO PARTICIPATE, AND THEY ARE ALSO IN TERMS OF OUR TOURISM NUMBERS, AMERICA IS SURGING VERY HIGH.

THEY ARE COMING, SO PEOPLE TO PEOPLE RELATIONS IS GOING VERY WELL.

AND SOUTH AFRICA IS FORGING AHEAD WITH ITS DIVERSIFICATION STRATEGY.

SOUTHEAST ASIA, CHINA AS ALREADY MENTIONED, AND ALSO ON OUR OWN AFRICAN CONTINENT, WHICH MOST OF OUR GOODS ARE EXPORTED TO AND ALSO LOOKING INTO LATIN AMERICA AND THE AMERICAS AS A BROADER SECTOR THAT WE'LL CONTINUE TO LOOK INTO.

BUT IT'S A REALITY THAT YOU CANNOT IGNORE THE U.S.

AS THE BIGGEST ECONOMY IN THE WORLD AND A MARKET THAT IS VERY FUNDAMENTAL AND IMPORTANT, AND THAT'S WHY WE KEEP OUR LINE OF COMMUNICATION IN RELATIONS TO TRADE OPEN.

>> YES.

AND YOU DID SAY -- YOU DID SAY THE DOOR IS STILL OPEN, THEY DECIDED THEY WOULDN'T COME.

IT'S NOT LIKE THEY WERE BARRED.

LET'S SEE HOW THIS TURNS OUT, AND WE'LL BE WATCHING AND REPORTING ON THE G20 AFTER THE WEEKEND.

FOREIGN MINISTER LAMOLA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

AS YOU HEARD THE FOREIGN MINISTER SAY THE G20 IS CREATED TO TACKLE BIG CRISES.

BUT IS THE NUCLEAR ISSUE BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND IRAN IN SHARP FOCUS ONCE AGAIN.

TEHRAN'S FOREIGN MINISTER SAYS NO URANIUM ENRICHMENT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW AFTER ISRAEL AND THE UNITED STATES ATTACKED IRAN'S NUCLEAR FACILITIES THIS SUMMER.

BUT THE NEGOTIATING TRAIL HAS GONE STONE-COLD, AND FEARS ARE RISING THAT ISRAEL COULD STRIKE AGAIN.

FRED PLEITGEN HAS BEEN TALKING EXCLUSIVELY TO THE FORMER FOREIGN MINISTER AND NOW ADVISOR TO THE SUPREME LEADER, AND HE'S JOINING US NOW FROM TEHRAN.

FRED, GOOD TO HAVE YOU THERE FROM TEHRAN.

IT IS A BIG ISSUE.

NOBODY'S QUITE SURE WHAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN NEXT BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN.

WHAT SENSE DID YOU GET FROM THEM OF WHAT THEY'RE EXPECTING TO HAPPEN GIVEN THERE'S NO NEGOTIATING GOING ON RIGHT NOW, I THINK?

>> WELL, FIRST OF ALL, I THINK THE SITUATION RIGHT NOW IS INDEED, CHRISTIANE, VERY VOLATILE IN THIS PART OF THE MIDDLE EAST.

AND THERE ARE SOME WHO FEAR THERE COULD BE ANOTHER MILL STARE STANDOFF OR CONFRONTATION BETWEEN ISRAEL AND IRAN AND ALSO BETWEEN THE U.S.

AND IRAN AS WELL.

THAT'S SOMETHING THAT LOOMS OVER EVERYTHING.

AT THE SAME TIME WE'VE BEEN SPEAKING TO A LOT OF IRANIAN OFFICIALS AND ALSO THE ADVISOR TO THE SUPREME LEADER.

AND HE TOLD ME THAT THE IRANIANS ARE WILLING TO TALK TO THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BUT ONLY WILLING TO DO SO ON THEIR TERMS.

WHAT THEY DON'T WANT, THEY SAY, IS ANY THREATS FROM THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

ONE OF THE THINGS, OF COURSE, THAT'S A BIG ISSUE FOR THEM IS THEY SAY THE LAST TIME THAT THEY WERE SPEAKING TO THE U.S.

ENVOY, STEVE WHITKOFF, AND THEY WERE SUPPOSED TO HAVE ANOTHER ROUND OF NEGOTIATIONS, THAT'S WHEN THE ISRAELIS ATTACKED.

THAT'S WHEN THAT 12-DAY WAR HAPPENED, AND IN THE END THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION -- PRESIDENT TRUMP, OF COURSE, BOMBED THOSE NUCLEAR SITES HERE IN IRAN.

SO THE IRANIANS ARE NOW SAYING AS FAR AS THEIR NUCLEAR PROGRAM IS CONCERNED, THEY WILL KEEP THAT NUCLEAR PROGRAM.

THEY WANT TO KEEP ENRICHING URANIUM, BUT AT THE SAME TIME THEY ALSO SAY THE DEGREE TO WHICH URANIUM IS ENRICHED IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE TALKED ABOUT.

I WANT YOU TO LISTEN TO SOMETHING HE HAD TO SAY TO ME.

>> IT IS A NUCLEAR ISSUE WE'RE READY TO ENGAGE WITH THE UNITED STATES AND OTHERS.

WE'RE NOT GOING TO SPEAK WITH OTHERS OR NEGOTIATE WITH OTHERS ON OTHER ISSUES INCLUDING MISSILE ACTIVITIES.

>> WHAT -- AS WE SIT HERE, WHAT IS YOUR MESSAGE RIGHT NOW TO U.S.

PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP?

>> START WITH POSITIVE APPROACH WITH IRAN.

IF IT WILL BE POSITIVE, CERTAINLY IT WILL BE RECIPROCATED.

BUT FOR THAT THEY HAVE TO REFRAIN FROM ANY FORCE AGAINST IRAN.

>> REFRAIN FROM ANY FORCE AGAINST IRAN, THAT WAS A POINT THAT THE SUPREME LEADER MADE ONCE AGAIN TO ME SEVERAL TIMES IN THAT INTERVIEW.

AT THE SAME TIME, AS WE WERE SAYING, THERE IS THAT THREAT OF POSSIBLE USE OF FORCE, A POSSIBLE MILITARY STANDOFF BETWEEN THE TWO COUNTRIES.

AND I ASKED HIM ABOUT THAT AS WELL, AND HE SAID, OF COURSE, EVERYTHING COULD HAPPEN, ANYTHING COULD HAPPEN.

BUT AT THE SAME TIME THE IRANIANS ARE SAY THEY BELIEVE THEY ARE PREPARED IF THERE IS ANOTHER MILITARY CONFRONTATION, CHRISTIANE.

>> YEAH, AND FRED, JUST TO GO BACK I THINK I READ, YOU KNOW, WITH GREAT INTEREST YOUR INTERVIEWS FROM TEHRAN, OBVIOUSLY, BECAUSE IT MATTERS SO MUCH.

AND THEY DID SAY, I THINK, THAT THEY WOULD GO BACK TO THE STATUS QUO ANTI REGARDING NUCLEAR TALKS BEFORE THEY WERE INTERRUPTED BY THE BOMBING.

SO I WANT TO KNOW THAT THEY UNDERSTAND EVEN THOSE IN FAVOR OF NEGOTIATIONS AND A NONVIOLENT SOLUTION TO THIS NUCLEAR STANDOFF, WHETHER THEY REALLY PROVOKED THE WORLD WITH THEIR 60% ENRICHMENT?

THAT IS, ACCORDING TO EXPERTS, PRACTICALLY IF NOT ACTUALLY WEAPONS GRADE.

>> SO, FIRST OF ALL, THE IRANIANS ARE SAYING THAT THEY BELIEVE THEY NEED THAT ENRICHMENT.

BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT YOU'VE ALSO MENTIONED AT THE BEGINNING OF OUR LIVE REPORT HERE IS VERY INTERESTING, BECAUSE I WAS ACTUALLY THERE WHEN THE FOREIGN MINISTER OF IRAN SAID RIGHT NOW THERE IS NO ENRICHMENT GOING IN IRAN AT ALL.

IT WAS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT TO MAKE.

AT THE SAME TIME IRANIANS FOR THE FIRST TIME WERE SAYING THOSE SITES, THOSE IMPORTANT ENRICHMENT SITES ARE COMPLETELY DESTROYED AND THE IRANIANS CAN'T EVEN ASSESS TO WHAT DEGREE THEY'RE DESTROYED AT THIS POINT IMTIME.

AN OFFICIAL WENT FURTHER THAN THAT SAYING THAT HIGHLY ENRICHED URANIUM IS BURIED BENEATH THE RUBBLE AND THE IRANIANS DON'T EVEN KNOW HOW MUCH OF THAT IS STILL AROUND.

THAT'S SORT OF THE PICTURE THAT THEY'RE PAINTING RIGHT NOW.

THEY'RE SAYING THAT AS FAR AS THE ENRICHMENT IS CONCERNED, THAT IT IS SOMETHING THAT CAN BE TALKED ABOUT, THE DEGREE OF ENRICHMENT.

OF COURSE YOU'LL RECALL ONE OF THE THINGS SPOKEN ABOUT BEFORE THE WAR HAPPENED IN JUNE OF THIS YEAR WAS A POSSIBLE CONSHORM BETWEEN THE IRANIANS AND OTHER POWERS AND ALSO THE U.S.

INVOLVED.

WHAT WE'RE HEARING THE DEAL IS OFF THE TABLE AT THIS POINT IN TIME, HOWEVER IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT COULDN'T BE REVIVED IN THE FUTURE.

HOWEVER, RIGHT NOW TO US IT SEEMS BOTH SIDES THE IRANIANS AND U.S.

MIGHT TRY TO FIND A WAY TO SPEAK TOGETHER ONE AGAIN, BUT IT SEEMS AT THIS POINT IN TIME THE LEVEL OF TRUST IS SO LOW IT'S GOING TO BE INTERESTING TO SEE WHICH SIDE MAKES THE FIRST MOVE TO INITIATE THOSE TALKS OR ANY TALKS GOING FORWARD.

>> IT IS INTERESTING BECAUSE THAT CONSHORGSM THING IS VIEWED BY MANY EXPERTS IN THE UNITED STATES AS SOMETHING IMPORTANT TO GET TO.

FRED, THANK YOU VERY MUCH FOR JOINING US FROM TEHRAN WITH ALL THAT IMPORTANT STUFF.

>>> NOW, HERE IN THE UNITED STATES FEAR IS MOUNTING AND SPREADING THROUGH IMMIGRANT COMMUNITIES AS MASS I.C.E.

RAIDS SWEEP ACROSS MOSTLY DEMOCRAT-LED CITIES.

FAMILIES HIDING, WORKERS DISAPPEARING, CHILDREN AFRAID TO LEAVE HOMES EVEN TO GO TO SCHOOL IN THE MIDDLE OF THIS TENSE AND PAINFUL MOMENT, A POWERFUL MORAL VOICE IS SPEAKING UP.

POPE LEO ON TUESDAY REMINDED AMERICA OF ITS VERY OWN VALUES.

>> WE HAVE TO LOOK FOR WAYS OF TREATING PEOPLE HUMANELY, TREATING PEOPLE WITH THE DIGNITY THAT THEY HAVE.

IF PEOPLE ARE IN THE UNITED STATES ILLEGALLY, THERE ARE WAYS TO TREAT THAT.

THERE ARE COURTS.

THERE'S A SYSTEM OF JUSTICE.

>> THE FIRST EVER AMERICAN POPE SPEAKING OUT THERE.

NOW, ONE PRIEST ON THE FRONT LINES OF THIS CRACKDOWN IS THE REVEREND ALEXANDER SANTORA, AND HE'S JOINING ME NOW.

FATHER SANTORA, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

JUST, YOU KNOW, YOU MINISTER ACROSS THE RIVER HERE IN HOKE HOBOKEN, NEW JERSEY, CAN YOU TELL ME FROM YOUR PARISHIONERS WHAT YOU'RE HEARING ABOUT WHAT THEY'RE ENDURING RIGHT NOW?

>> FIRST OF ALL, CHRISTIANE, IT'S AN HONOR TO BE WITH YOU.

THE PEOPLE IN MY PARISH, WE HAVE TWO SPANISH COMMUNITIES, AND THEY'RE VERY MUCH BOTHERED BY THE WAY PEOPLE OF COLOR ARE BEING TREATED.

ONE WOMAN CAME UP TO ME AFTER MASS, AND SHE STARTED TO CRY TELLING ME A STORY ABOUT HER UNCLE WHO WAS IN MIAMI AND CAME HERE 45 YEARS AGO, BUILT-UP A BUSINESS, RAISED HIS FAMILY, AND NOW HE'S GOING TO SELF-DEPORT TO MEXICO.

AND THAT'S ONE OF PROBABLY THOUSANDS OF STORIES THAT WE'RE HEARING THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY.

SO THE PEOPLE ARE REALLY UPSET ABOUT THIS CAMPAIGN OF CRUELTY AND FEAR, AND IT'S AFFECTING CHURCHES ALL OVER THE COUNTRY.

>> AND, FATHER, WHICH PEOPLE COME TO MASS, AND OBVIOUSLY YOUR PARISHIONERS ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY CATHOLIC AND THEY'RE HISPANIC, AND THEY ARE IMPLICATED IN THESE RAIDS.

WHAT DO THEY SAY ABOUT THEIR CHILDREN, ABOUT HOW THEY HAVE TO LIVE THEIR LIFE IN THE SHADOWS?

WHAT DO THEY SAY ABOUT JUST LIVING DAY TO DAY LIFE UNDER THIS THREAT?

>> WELL, MY PARISH ISN'T AFFECTED AS INTIMATELY AS SOME OTHERS, BUT I TALKED TO SOME STAFF AT OUR CATHOLIC SCHOOLS IN NORTHERN NEW JERSEY, WHICH IS HEAVILY HISPANIC, AND THEY TELL ME THAT THEIR ENROLLMENT IS DOWN.

BECAUSE AS YOU MENTIONED IT IN THE INTRODUCTION, PARENTS DON'T WANT TO COME OUT WITH THEIR CHILDREN.

THEY'RE AFRAID THAT THEY'LL BE ARRESTED AND THEIR CHILDREN WILL BE ALONE.

SO IT'S -- IT'S DEPRESSING ATTENDANCE IN CATHOLIC SCHOOLS.

AND AS YOU MAY HAVE HEARD THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY BISHOPS HAVE BEEN GIVEN A DISPENSATION TO CATHOLICS BECAUSE THEY'RE AFRAID TO COME TO CHURCH.

SO THEY'RE SAYING STAY HOME.

SO YOU COULD SEE IT IS IMPACTING THE GROUND -- THE GRASS ROOTS THROUGHOUT THE UNITED STATES.

>> LET ME JUST ELABORATE WHY THAT'S IMPORTANT.

BECAUSE CATHOLICS ARE OBLIGATED TO GO TO SUNDAY MASS.

SO THIS DISPENSATION IS VERY -- VERY CRUCIAL.

SO I WANT TO ASK YOU THIS ALSO BECAUSE YOU HAVE BEEN QUOTED AS SAYING "THIS IS NOT WHAT JESUS CHRIST WOULD WANT.

IT IS IMMORAL."

AND YOU'RE TALKING NOT SO FAR AWAY FROM YOUR CHURCH SOME THOUSAND IMMIGRANTS ARE BEING HELD OR WERE BEING HELD IN A DETENTION CENTER.

TALK ABOUT THE RELIGIOUS MORAL ASPECT OF ALL OF THIS.

>> WELL, I THINK, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE GOSPELS, WHEN PEOPLE SAY "WE WERE WITH YOU, USES."

AND ONE OF THE QUESTIONS HE ASKS IS HOW DID YOU WELCOME THE STRANGER?

AND THIS MASS INCARCERATION IN NEWARK AT DELANEY HALL HAS BEEN VERY CONTROVERSIAL.

THERE ARE PROBABLY A THOUSAND PEOPLE THERE, AND SO MANY STORIES HAVE COME OUT ABOUT THE CONDITIONS INSIDE, BUT THERE'S A GLIMPSE OF GOOD NEWS.

AS YOU MAY KNOW OUR ARCHBISHOP CARDINAL TOBIN, HAS BEEN VERY MUCH INVOLVED IN THIS SINCE HE'S BEEN OUR ARCHBISHOP, AND HE APPOINTED A CATHOLIC PRIEST.

HE'S A COLUMBIAN NATIVE WHO LIVES IN JERSEY CITY, TO BE HIS IMMIGRATION VICAR.

AND AS OF SEPTEMBER HE NOW GOES INTO DELANEY HALL THREE TIMES A WEEK, AND HE SPENDS ANYWHERE FROM 6 TO 10 HOURS HEARING CONFESSIONS, SAYING MASS, LEADING PRAYER GROUPS.

AND THEY'VE BEEN DEVOTING RESOURCES FOR THE INMATES WHO ARE PREDOMINANTLY HISPANIC.

SO I SPOKE WITH HIM THIS MORNING.

HIS NAME IS FATHER ALEX -- AND HE'S VERY HEARTENED THAT THEY HAVE ENTRE INTO THIS FACILITY.

>> WELL, THAT'S PROGRESS THEN, OF COURSE.

LET ME ASK YOU BECAUSE THIS IS ALL IN ALSO THE CONTEXT OF WHAT POPE LEO HAS SAID, THE BASIC CATHOLIC AND CHRISTIAN MISSION OF BEING CHARITABLE TO OTHERS, TREATING EVERYBODY LIKE EQUAL HUMAN BEINGS AND VALUING LIFE IN ALL ITS DIMENSIONS.

AND SO THE CATHOLIC CONFERENCE OF BISHOPS IN THE UNITED STATES HAS ISSUED A STATEMENT ON THIS ISSUE, AND I'M GOING TO JUST PLAY A LITTLE BIT OF IT.

>> WE ARE DISTURBED WHEN WE SEE AMONG OUR PEOPLE A CLIMATE OF FEAR AND ANXIETY AROUND QUESTIONS OF PROFILING AND IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.

>> WE ARE SADDENED BY THE STATE OF CONTEMPORARY DEBATE AND THE VILIFICATION OF IMMIGRANTS.

WE ARE CONCERNED ABOUT THE CONDITIONS IN DETENTION CENTERS AND THE LACK OF ACCESS TO POS TURRAL CARE.

>> WE'RE HEARING, FATHER, ALMOST UNIVERSALLY THE BISHOPS SIGNED ONTO THIS.

NOT EVERYBODY.

THERE'S JUST A HANDFUL WHO DID NOT, BUT MORE THAN -- A HUGE MAJORITY DID.

ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THE UNITY, OR IS IT, YOU KNOW, WHAT YOUR CONSTITUENTS WOULD DO?

AND ARE YOU SURPRISED BY THE HOLDOUTS?

>> WELL, IT WAS ALMOST UNANIMOUS.

WE'RE TALKING ABOUT A HANDFUL.

BUT I THINK WHAT'S SIGNIFICANT IS UNDER POPE FRANCIS THERE WAS A BIT OF A DIVISION AMONG THE BISHOPS WHICH I FOUND REALLY NOT A GOOD THING, THAT PEOPLE WOULD SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE POPE.

AND SO I THINK THE FACT THAT POPE LEO IS BOTH AN AMERICAN AND SPENT 20 YEARS IN PERU, GIVES HIM A UNIQUE PERSPECTIVE.

AND CLEARLY HE SPOKE OUT ABOUT THIS EVEN BEFORE THIS DOCUMENT, AND THAT MIGHT HAVE GIVEN THEM THE PUSH TO REALIZE THAT, YOU KNOW, THERE HAVE BEEN A HANDFUL OF BISHOPS THAT HAVE BEEN SPEAKING OUT FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT BASICALLY THE NEED FOR THEM TO BE UNITED AND TO SPEAK WITH ONE VOICE SO THAT ALL CATHOLICS NOW ARE ASKED TO FOLLOW THEIR LEAD, AND THEY ARE ASKED TO DO THINGS IN THEIR COMMUNITIES TO STAND UP TO THE CRUELTY, TO STAND UP TO THE PROFILING AND TO THE HATE AND TO SPEAK UP FOR THE MIGRANTS.

AND I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S SO SIGNIFICANT ABOUT WHAT THE BISHOPS DID.

>> CAN I ALSO ASK YOU BECAUSE THIS HAS OBVIOUSLY RESONATED, THE PICTURES EMERGING HERE IN THE UNITED STATES RESONATES AROUND THE WORLD INCLUDING IN THE WORLD'S MASSIVE CATHOLIC AND CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY, MUCH, MUCH BIGGER THAN THE ONE HERE IN THE U.S.

IMMIGRATION IS A GLOBAL ISSUE.

MANY COUNTRIES, MANY DEMOCRACIES ARE HAVING HUGE CRISES AND ISSUES TRYING TO DEAL WITH THIS.

AND MANY OF THEM ARE KIND OF GOING OFF THE RAILS.

YOU KNOW, PRESIDENT -- RATHER THE POPE SAID, YES, IF IT'S ILLEGAL YOU HAVE TO DEAL WITH IT, BUT THERE ARE METHODS TO DEAL WITH IT.

GIVE ME A SENSE OF HOW THIS IS RESONATING IN THE CHRISTIAN COMMUNITY AROUND THE WORLD VERSUS NOT YOUR CATHOLIC COMMUNITY BUT LET'S SAY THE EVANGELICAL CHRISTIANS HERE BECAUSE I THINK YOU'RE ALL SAYING THAT THE SANCTITY OF LIFE IS NOT JUST ABOUT BEING ANTI-ABORTION BUT IT'S ABOUT BEING -- >> EXACTLY.

>> -- RESPECTING ALL MANNER OF LIFE AND DIGNITY AND HUMANIZATION.

>> WELL, I THINK POPE LEO HAS GIVEN US WHAT WE NEED TO BE ABLE TO DO EVEN IN COUNTRIES THROUGHOUT THE WORLD.

CAN WE ABSORB THE MIGRANTS?

THERE IS NO DOUBT THAT WE CAN.

THE QUESTION IS HOW DO WE DO IT IN A HUMANE WAY?

AND I THINK THIS PUSH BACK ESPECIALLY IN THE UNITED STATES BUT IN OTHER PARTS OF THE WORLD.

I MEAN EVEN IN GERMANY AND OTHER COUNTRIES, THEY'RE STARTING TO COME TO GRIPS WITH ALL OF THIS.

I THINK THE POINT IS DO IT IN A WAY THAT RESPECTS THE HUMAN DIGNITY OF EVERY PERSON.

AND MAKE SURE THAT THERE ARE WAYS FOR PEOPLE TO REGULARIZE THE SITUATION.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW THAT IMMIGRANTS FUEL THE ECONOMY IN SO MANY WAYS, AND I SHARED THAT IN MY OWN CHURCH, WHICH WAS BUILT BY IRISH IMMIGRANTS IN THE MID-19th CENTURY.

SO OBVIOUSLY ALL OF THAT IS VERY POSITIVE, BUT THIS CAMPAIGN OF HATE IS REALLY WHAT IS, I THINK, PEOPLE REJECT THAT UNILATERALLY.

AND I THINK THIS IS WHAT PEOPLE ARE REACTING TO.

THEY KNOW THE PEOPLE IN THEIR COMMUNITIES WHO HAVE LIVED THERE, WHO WORK THERE.

THEY KNOW THEIR CHILDREN.

THEY DON'T SEE THEM BEING TREATED LIKE THIS AS ANYTHING OTHER THAN BEING INHUMANE.

>> I WANT TO TALK ABOUT THE POLITICS A LITTLE BIT BECAUSE IT MATTERS.

ROMAN CATHOLICS DID VOTE FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP IN THIS ELECTION.

YOU KNOW, THEY SWUNG AWAY FROM THE DEMOCRATS AND VOTED FOR PRESIDENT TRUMP.

WE'VE SEEN A SORT OF A SWING BACK IN THE 2025 ELECTION EARLIER THIS MONTH BECAUSE PRESUMABLY THESE ISSUES THAT ARE GOING ON IN THEIR OWN COMMUNITY.

BUT THERE ARE SEVERAL VERY HIGHLY-PLACED ROMAN CATHOLICS IN THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION.

YOU'VE GOT THE BORDER CZAR TOM HOMAN, YOU GOT THE VICE PRESIDENT JD VANCE AND I DARE TO SAY SECRETARY OF STATE MARCO RUBIO IS, TOO.

I DON'T KNOW HE'S CUBAN.

MAYBE HE IS.

THIS IS WHAT HE'S SAYING ABOUT THIS.

>> THE CATHOLIC CHURCH IS WRONG.

I'M A LIFELONG CATHOLIC.

I'LL SAY THIS NOT ONLY AS THE BORDER CZAR BUT AS A LIFELONG CATHOLIC.

I THINK THEY NEED TO SPEND TIME FIXING THE CATHOLIC CHURCH.

>> I THINK THE CATHOLIC CHURCH OF BISHOPS NEEDS TO LOOK IN THE MIRROR AND RECOGNIZE THAT WHEN THEY RECEIVE OVER $100 MILLION TO HELP RESETTLE ILLEGAL IMMIGRANTS ARE THEY WORRIED ABOUT HUMANITARIAN CONCERNS, OR ARE THEY ACTUALLY WORRIED ABOUT THEIR BOTTOM LINE?

>> SO VANCE WAS -- I'LL ASK YOU IN A SECOND, BUT I WANT TO MAKE CLEAR VANCE WAS TALKING IN JANUARY RESPONDING TO PREVIOUS BISHOPS WEIGHING IN.

HOMAN WAS SPEAKING ABOUT THIS LATEST MESSAGE FROM YOU ALL.

WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE?

>> WELL, I HOPE HOMAN DOESN'T COME TO ME FOR CONFESSION BECAUSE CLEARLY HE IS OUT OF THE LOOP ON CATHOLIC TEACHING, AND HE'S A DISGRACE TO OUR FAITH FOR HIM TO SAY THAT.

ALSO VANCE, YOU KNOW, ENTERED OUR CHURCH THROUGH ALMOST A VERY ULTRACONSERVATIVE CATHOLIC MOVEMENT, AND YET HE'S CATHOLIC BUT HE DOESN'T SEEM TO ESPOUSE CATHOLIC VALUES.

AND I THINK THE POPE IS THE PRIMARY EXAMPLE.

THE POPE IS SAYING YOU CAN'T BE PRO-LIFE AND JUST THINK THAT EVERYTHING DOESN'T MATTER OUTSIDE THE WOMB.

IT DOES.

SO THESE CATHOLICS THEY JUST ARE MISGUIDED, AND THEY'RE PUTTING HUMANS BEFORE JESUS AND GOD.

AND I THINK THEY HAVE TO ACCOUNT FOR THEIR OWN CONSCIENCE.

BUT BASED ON WHAT THEY'RE SAYING, THEY'RE CLEARLY WRONG.

>> AND JUST VERY FINELY, WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS WILL ALL GO?

DO YOU SEE ANY KIND OF SWING BACK TO A MORE HUMANE POLICY?

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S UP TO US CATHOLICS IN THE PEWS SO TO SPEAK, IN THE PARISHES TO DO WHAT NEEDS TO BE DONE.

I'LL JUST END WITH ONE POINT.

YOU'VE SEEN THIS MOVIE RELEASED, "NUREMBURG."

AT THE END OF THE MOVIE THE GERMAN TRANSLATOR RAISED IN GERMANY BUT ENTERS THE UNITED STATES IN MILITARY, SAYS TO THE PSYCHIATRIST THAT THE REASON THEY WERE ABLE TO GET AWAY WITH WHAT THEY DID DURING THE NAZI ERA IS BECAUSE THE GERMAN PEOPLE DID NOT PROTEST.

AND I THINK THAT MESSAGE COULD RESONATE WITH US IN THE UNITED STATES.

WE NEED TO STAND UP FOR GOOD VALUES, HUMANE TREATMENT AND DEALING WITH PEOPLE THE WAY JESUS CHRIST WOULD.

>> WELL, THAT'S A VERY POINTED QUOTE.

BUT, OF COURSE, AS POPE LEO SAID, AMERICANS NEED TO LISTEN TO THEIR OWN VALUES.

FATHER SANTORA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, CHRISTIANE.

>> NOW THE COP30 CLIMATE CONFERENCE IS WHERE WORLD LEADERS TRY TO HAMMER OUT SOLUTIONS TO THE GROWING CLIMATE CRISIS.

THIS YEAR THE UNITED STATES ALSO BOYCOTTED THAT GATHERING.

IN BELEM, BRAZIL, THE PAST TWO WEEKS HAVE SEEN INDIGENOUS PROTESTERS MARCHING FOR BETTER PROTECTIONS FOR THEIR OWN TERRITORIES AND THOUSANDS OF YOUTH ACTIVISTS ACROSS THE WORLD CALLING FOR FOSSIL FUEL PHASE-OUTS WITH MANY SAYING OUR FUTURE IS BEING BURNT DOWN.

THE PULITZER PRIZEWINNING JOURNALIST ELIZABETH KOLBERT HAS BEEN COVERING CLIMATE FOR OVER 20 YEARS, AND HER NEW BOOK IS A COLLECTION OF ESSAYS.

AND SHE'S JOINING HARRY SREENIVASAN TO REFLECT WHAT SHE HAS LEARNED.

>> THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.

YOUR MOST RECENT BOOK, "LIFE ON A LITTLE-KNOWN PLANET," TAKES THE READER THROUGH 20 YEARS OF YOUR ESSAYS AND REPORTING ON THIS TOPIC.

AND THERE'S A QUOTE THAT KIND OF SUMS UP SOME OF YOUR REPORTING.

"EVEN AS WE ARE UPENDING THE NATURAL WORLD, WE ARE COMING TO UNDERSTAND IT IN EVER MORE INTIMATE DETAIL."

WHAT IS IT ABOUT THE NATURAL WORLD THAT KEPT YOU GOING BACK TO FIND THESE STORIES, TO TALK TO THESE PEOPLE, TO SHARE THESE EXPERIENCES?

>> WELL, THE BOOK AND THE STORIES IN IT, I THINK OF THEM AS SORT OF A LOVE LETTER OR LOVE LETTERS, A COLLECTION OF LOVE LETTERS TO A CHANGING WORLD, A CHANGING PLANET.

AND AS YOU MENTIONED I HAVE IN THE PROCESS OF WRITING THESE STORIES GONE TO AMAZING PLACES, TO NEW ZEALAND, TO THE AMAZON, TO THE GREAT BARRIER REEF.

AND I GOT TO SEE AMAZING CREATURES AND MEET AMAZING PEOPLE.

SO THAT -- YOU KNOW, WHAT MORE REALLY COULD A JOURNALIST ASK FOR THAN THAT?

>> ALL RIGHT, LET'S TALK ABOUT THESE AMAZING PEOPLE AND PLACES.

DAVID GRUBER IS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE YOU START YOUR BOOK OUT WITH.

HOW DID YOU FIND HIS WORK IN THE FIRST PLACE?

WHAT LED YOU TO THE STORY?

>> WELL, LIKE ALL -- YOU KNOW, ALL JOURNALISTS ARE SORT OF MAGPIES.

I READ AND CAME UPON A REFERENCE TO THE PROJECT SOMEWHERE.

IT'S CALLED SEDI, WHICH IS A PURPOSEFUL ILLUSION TO THE SEARCH FOR EXTRA TERRESTRIAL INTELLIGENCE EXCEPT NOW WE'RE LOOKING FOR CETACEAN INTELLIGENCE.

SO THE PROJECT IS LOOKING TO TRY TO DECIPHER THE LANGUAGE OF SPERM WHALES.

SPERM WHALES COMMUNICATE THROUGH THESE VERY ELABORATE SIGNALS OF CLICKS THAT THEY EMIT FROM THEIR ENORMOUS HEADS.

AND DAVID CAME UP WITH THIS IDEA IN CONCERT WITH SOME VERY IMMINENT COMPUTER SCIENTISTS, COULD WE USE MACHINE LEARNING AND A.I.

TO TRY TO DECIPHER THIS?

IT'S A BIG PROJECT, AND IT'S A REALLY FASCINATING PROJECT.

AND I GOT TO SPEND A WEEK OUT WITH THEM LISTENING TO WHALES, AND IN THE PROCESS I ACTUALLY SAW A SPERM WHALE GIVE BIRTH, WHICH WAS JUST AN EXTRAORDINARY EXPERIENCE.

>> THERE'S AN ESSAY WHERE THE BOOK GETS ITS TITLE, "LIFE ON A LITTLE-KNOWN PLANET."

IT'S A PROFILE OF AN ENTOMOLOGIST, DAVID WAGNER, AND HE WAS IN THE MIDDLE OF SOMETHING PRETTY AUDACIOUS.

HE WANTED TO TRY TO IDENTIFY ALL THE CATERPILLARS IN AMERICA.

WHAT IS THE GRAND VALUE IN THIS JOB?

>> WELL, I THINK THAT ONE OF THE MESSAGES I HOPE COMES THROUGH IN THE BOOK IS SOMETHING I'VE REALLY COME TO FEEL STRONGLY AND LEARN FROM ALL OF THE SCIENTISTS THAT I'VE BEEN OUT IN THE FIELD WITH WHO STUDY DIFFERENT SPECIES IS THAT, YOU KNOW, EVERY SPECIES, AND A CATERPILLAR IS A SPECIES OF MOTH OR BUTTERFLY THAT HAS YET TO MUMORPH SIZE INTO AN ADULT.

EVERY SPECIES IS A GREAT QUESTION HOW TO SURVIVE ON PLANET EARTH.

EVERY SPECIES HAS COME UP WITH A DIFFERENT ANSWER TO THAT QUESTION, AND WHEN YOU THINK ABOUT IT THAT IS SORT OF THE VAST ENCYCLOPEDIA OF LIFE.

AND WHAT DAVID WAGNER IS OUT THERE DOING, AS YOU SAY, IS TRYING TO COLLECT AND PHOTOGRAPH EVERY CATERPILLAR IN NORTH AMERICA, WHICH IS A VAST TASK.

AND BEING WITH HIM WAS JUST EXHAUSTING.

WE WERE RUNNING AROUND ALL THE TIME AND FOUND SOME AMAZING CATERPILLARS WHICH DIDN'T REALLY REVEAL THEIR TRUE COLORS EXCEPT UNDER MAGNIFICATION BUT ARE FANTASTIC CREATURES.

AND HE REALLY SEES IT AS A RACE AGAINST TIME.

WILL THESE SPECIES EVEN BE THERE, YOU KNOW, FIVE, TEN, 15, 20 YEARS FROM NOW.

AND WE WERE IN TEXAS WHERE THEY'RE HAVING A BIG DROUGHT, AND SO THAT QUESTION OF WHETHER DROUGHT AND CLIMATE CHANGE IS GOING TO JUST WIPEOUT SOME OF THESE SPECIES WAS VERY MUCH, YOU KNOW, UPPERMOST IN HIS MIND.

>> KIND OF A REFRESHER OR A BIOLOGY LESSON HERE, WHAT'S THE RIPPLE EFFECT WHEN WE HAVE WHAT YOU DESCRIBE AS THE INSECT APOCALYPSE?

RIGHT, IF THERE ARE THESE SPECIES THAT WE NO LONGER HAVE, WE MIGHT NOT -- WE MIGHT JUST SEE IT AS, OH, IT'S A PRETTY BUTTERFLY, ET CETERA, BUT IT'S PART OF AN ECOSYSTEM.

>> YEAH, AND WITH CATERPILLARS THAT'S A HUGE BIG DEAL BECAUSE CATERPILLARS ARE A HUGE SOURCE OF FOOD, OF PROTEIN FOR BIRDS.

AND WHEN THEY'RE FLEDGING THEIR YOUNG, THERE'S A LOT OF BIRDS WHO BASICALLY DEPEND ON CATCHING MANY, MANY, YOU KNOW, HUNDREDS OF CATERPILLARS TO GET THEIR BROOD, YOU KNOW, TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CAN FLEDGE AND LEAVE THE NEST.

SO EVERYTHING INCLUDING CREATURES THAT WE FIND PESTY AND IRRITATING IS PROBABLY A FOOD SOURCE FOR OTHER CREATURES.

AND IN THE CASE OF INSECTS, THAT COULDN'T BE MORE TRUE.

I MEAN, BIRDS, INSECTS VERSUS BIRDS, FISH, EVERYTHING UP THE FOOD CHAIN DEPENDS ON THEM.

SO WHEN YOU'RE MESSING AROUND WITH YOUR INSECT POPULATIONS, YOU'RE REALLY MESSING AROUND WITH SOMETHING PRETTY FUNDAMENTAL TO OUR ECOSYSTEMS.

>> YOU'VE GOT A SECTION CALLED BIG IDEAS AND ONE OF THEM IS CARBON SEQUESTTRATION OR TAKING THE CO2 OUT OF THE AIR AND FIGURING OUT HOW TO PUSH IT BACK UNDERGROUND.

THERE ARE PLACES THIS IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.

IT'S IN INCREDIBLY SMALL SCALES.

WHY IS IT IMPORTANT?

>> ONE OF THE INTERESTING THINGS ABOUT HOW WE TEND TO GO ABOUT LIFE THESE DAYS I SUPPOSE -- AND WHEN I SAY WE I'M THINKING VERY BROADLY ABOUT PEOPLE OR PEOPLE IN THE GLOBAL NORTH IS THAT WE INTRODUCE THINGS INTO THE ENVIRONMENT AND THEN WE DECIDE, OKAY, MAYBE THAT WASN'T SUCH A GREAT IDEA.

PLASTICS, FOR EXAMPLE, BEING EXHIBIT "A" THESE DAYS.

BUT CERTAINLY CARBON DIOXIDE IS WAY, WAY UP THERE.

SO WE'RE EMITTING BILLIONS OF TONS A YEAR OF CARBON DIOXIDE INTO THE ATMOSPHERE, AND THAT'S WARMING OUR PLANET.

YOU KNOW, WE ALL KIND OF KNOW THAT AT THIS POINT.

WE KIND OF ALL EXPERIENCE IT.

AND IF YOU WANT TO KEEP TEMPERATURES FROM EXCEEDING 1.5 DEGREES, WHICH WE'RE BASICALLY AT ALREADY, YOU REALLY NEED TO START TAKING BIG, BIG AMOUNTS OF CO2 OUT OF THE AIR AGAIN.

AND THE CHALLENGE HERE, AS YOU SAY, THE TECHNOLOGY DOES EXIST TO DO THIS.

THE CHALLENGE IS THAT IT TAKES ENERGY.

AND IF YOU'RE USING THAT ENERGY TO TAKE THE CO2 OUT OF THE AIR, THEN YOU SORT OF SAY TO YOURSELF, OKAY, LET'S NOT PUT THE CO2 UP THERE TO BEGIN WITH, AND THAT IS BIG DEBATE THAT'S GOING ON EVEN AS WE SPEAK.

>> AS YOU READ THESE DIFFERENT ESSAYS, YOU FIND THAT SO MUCH OF HOW HUMAN BEINGS APPROACH JUST LIFE, THE FRAMING OF THINGS WHETHER OR NOT THIS IS THE PROBLEM, HOW URGE WANT IS THIS PROBLEM, WHAT SHOULD WE DO ABOUT IT?

ONE OF THE PEOPLE YOU HAVE, THE SCIENTISTS YOU SPOKE WITH, KLAUSE, HE KIND OF ARGUES REALLY OUR SORT OF MORAL IMPOSITION IS PART OF THE PROBLEM.

HE SAYS SUCH A MORAL STANCE MAKES VIRTUALLY EVERYONE A SINNER AND MAKES HYPOCRITES OUT OF MANY WHO ARE CONCERNED ABOUT CLIMATE CHANGE BUT STILL PARTAKE IN THE BENEFITS OF MODERNTY.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT FRAMING?

>> MEETING KLAUSE WAS AN INTERESTING EXPERIENCE.

HE'S ONE OF THE PIONEERS IN CARBON CAPTURE.

HIS POINT WAS, LOOK, WE PRODUCE WASTE -- WE ALL PRODUCE WASTE, AND WE TREAT IT AS SUCH.

WE TREAT IT AS GARBAGE THAT NEEDS TO BE COLLECTED.

WE DON'T SAY YOU CAN'T PRODUCE ANY WASTE, AND YOU SHOULD TREAT CARBON DIOXIDE THE SAME WAY.

THAT'S A VERY ATTRACTIVE ARGUMENT.

WHEN I WAS TALKING TO KLAUSE I FOUND IT EXTREMELY COMPELLING.

THE QUESTION IS -- OR A QUESTION IS IT PRACTICAL?

IT GETS BACK TO THE QUESTION OF ENERGY USE.

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING THAT'S GOING TO HAPPEN MAGICALLY.

ALTHOUGH I WILL SAY THAT WHEN PEOPLE GO OUT AND TALK ABOUT PLANTING TREES, TREES ABSORB CARBON DIOXIDE, SO THAT IS SORT OF A WIN-WIN ON THE CARBON CAPTURE FRONT.

BUT, YOU KNOW, I THINK THAT ONE OF THE LESSONS OF, UNFORTUNATELY, THE LAST FEW DECADES IS THAT THESE PROBLEMS, WHICH WE TEND TO CREATE AT SCALE -- YOU KNOW, WE SCALE -- WE'RE REALLY GOOD AT SCALING THINGS UP -- ARE REALLY HARD TO CONFRONT AT SCALE.

SO CARBON CAPTURE, I THINK, PROBABLY DOES HAVE A PLACE ON A SMALL TO MEDIUM SCALE, BUT WHETHER IT CAN EVER BE SCALED TO THE EXTENT WE JUST TREAT CARBON DIOXIDE AS ANY SORT OF RACE PRODUCT SEEMS VERY DIFFICULT.

>> JUST RECENTLY BILL GATES WROTE AN ESSAY, AND HE ARGUED THAT THE FINANCIAL RESOURCES WE'RE TALKING ABOUT WITH CLIMATE CHANGE SHOULD BE SHIFTED TO SORT OF SUPPORTING HUMANS.

HIS QUOTE WAS ALTHOUGH CLIMATE CHANGE WILL HAVE SERIOUS CONSEQUENCES PARTICULARLY FOR PEOPLE IN THE POOREST COUNTRIES, IT WILL NOT LEAD TO HUMANITY'S DEMISE.

HE SAYS HEALTH AND PERITY ARE THE BEST DEFENSE AGAINST CLIMATE CHANGE.

HOW DO YOU THINK ABOUT THAT?

>> FIRST OF ALL, I HAVE TWO REACTIONS.

FIRST OF ALL, NOT LEAD TO HUMANITY'S DEMISE IS A PRETTY LOW BAR.

IT WILL LEAD TO A GREAT DEAL OF SUFFERING.

WE SEE THAT, YOU KNOW, PRACTICALLY EVER OTHER WEEK NOW WITH SOME CLIMATE-RELATED DISASTER THAT COSTS A LOT OF PEOPLE THEIR LIVES AND COSTS EVEN MORE PEOPLE THEIR LIVELIHOODS.

WE JUST SAW THAT, YOU KNOW, WITH HURRICANE MELISSA, WHICH WAS A VERY, VERY SEVERE STORM, VERY RAPIDLY INTENSIFYING HURRICANE THAT HIT JAMAICA.

SO I THINK THAT, YOU KNOW, THIS NOTION THAT WE CAN JUST REASSIGN RESOURCES AND LET CLIMATE CHANGE CONTINUE SORT OF UNABATED AND THAT SOMEHOW WE'RE GOING TO MAKE PEOPLE SO PROSPEROUS THAT THIS ISN'T GOING TO MATTER, I FIND THAT VERY HARD TO BELIEVE, UNFORTUNATELY.

BUT THAT IS KIND OF AN ARGUMENT THAT'S OUT THERE.

WHAT WE REALLY NEED IS JUST, YOU KNOW, MORE PROSPERITY, NOT TO DEAL WITH THE ACTUAL ROOT CAUSE OF THE PROBLEM.

I THINK IT'S PRETTY RARE THAT YOU CAN DEAL WITH A PROBLEM WHEN YOU DON'T DEAL WITH THE ROOT CAUSE OF IT.

>> YOU ALSO PROFILE JAMES HANSEN, WHO WE HAVE BEEN ALIVE LONG ENOUGH TO REMEMBER WHEN HE STARTED HIS TESTIMONY IN FRONT OF CONGRESS TALKING TO PEOPLE OVER AND OVER AGAIN AND SAYING, HEY, THIS IS A HUGE PROBLEM.

YOU HAVE AN EXCERPT FROM AN ESSAY YOU PUBLISHED.

THIS WAS IN 2009, IT SAYS YOU WROTE "HANSEN HAS NOW CONCLUDED THAT THE THREAT OF GLOBAL WARMING IS FAR GREATER THAN EVEN HE HAD SUSPECTED.

CARBON DIOXIDE ISN'T JUST APPROACHING DANGEROUS LEVELS, IT'S ALREADY THERE.

UNLESS IMMEDIATE ACTION IS TAKEN INCLUDING THE SHUTDOWN OF ALL THE WORLD'S COAL PLANTS IN THE NEXT TWO DECADES, IT WILL CHANGE THAT SOCIETY WON'T BE ABLE TO COPE WITH."

WE'RE ALMOST TWO YEARS NOW TO WHEN THOSE PREDICTIONS CAME TRUE.

WHAT IS IT LIKE REVISITING THAT?

>> UNFORTUNATELY, JIM HAS HAD AN UNFORTUNATE HABIT OF BEING RIGHT THROUGHOUT HIS CAREER.

HE MADE VERY, VERY BOLD PREDICTIONS AT A TIME WHEN PEOPLE WERE REALLY DEBATING WHETHER YOU COULD SEE THE SIGNAL OF CLIMATE CHANGE, WHETHER IT HAD EMERGED IN THE SORT OF NOISE OF NATURAL CLIMATE VARIABILITY, AND JIM WAS ONE OF THE FIRST PEOPLE WHO SAID IT HAD.

IN RETROSPECT WHEN PEOPLE GO BACK AND LOOK AT IT, THEY SAY, YES, HE WAS RIGHT.

HE MADE JUST A SERIES OF VERY LEGIBLE PREDICTIONS THAT HAVE ALL COME TRUE.

AND I THINK JIM'S POINT THERE IS IT WOULD BE VERY INTERESTING TO GET JIM IN CONVERSATION WITH BILL GATES.

YOU CAN'T -- YOU KNOW, YOU CAN'T -- YOU DON'T GET THIS PLANET BACK.

ONCE YOU TAKE THE CLIMATE IN A NEW DIRECTION, YOU DON'T CONTROL IT ANYMORE AND YOU DON'T GET BACK THE CLIMATE THAT YOU ONCE HAD.

AND WHAT IS REALLY I THINK CRUCIAL TO UNDERSTAND IS THAT ALL OF HUMAN CIVILIZATION DEVELOPED DURING THIS TIME THAT WE NOW KNOW WAS A TIME OF RELATIVELY RARE CLIMATE STABILITY.

AND IF YOU SAY WE'RE ALL DEPENDING AND WE ALL LIVE ON COASTS, WE ALL LIVE IN PLACES THAT HAVE BEEN FORMED BY THE CLIMATE OF THE LAST 10,000 YEARS AND NOW WE'RE REALLY RAPIDLY CHANGING IT, YOU KNOW, WHAT COULD GO WRONG?

AND NOW WE'RE SEEING, UNFORTUNATELY, WHAT COULD GO WRONG.

AND I THINK THAT READING JIM'S REALLY ELOQUENT PLEAS ALMOST 20 YEARS LATER IS KIND OF HEART BREAKING BECAUSE ONE OF THE POINTS, I THINK, THAT JIM WOULD MAKE, AND JIM WAS DURING THIS IN THE '70s IS WE HAD ALL THE INFORMATION WE NEEDED BACK IN THE 1970s TO KNOW WE WERE FACING A BIG PROBLEM, AND WE DIDN'T ACT ON IT.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK HAS HAPPENED IN THOSE 20 YEARS?

I MEAN, IT BECAME AN INTERNATIONAL PRIORITY, RIGHT?

AND THERE WERE MOMENTS WHERE WE SAW, HEY, YOU KNOW, WE COLLECTIVELY GOT TOGETHER TO DO SOMETHING ABOUT THE OZONE HOLE OVER AUSTRALIA, AND WE KIND OF DID IT, YOU KNOW, IN A RELATIVELY SHORT PERIOD OF TIME.

WE HAD THE PARIS ACCORDS, THE PLANET STARTED TO MAKE THESE COMMITMENTS, AND THEN YOU SEE IT JUST KIND OF BEING ROLLED BACK.

WHAT HAPPENED?

>> I THINK THAT ONE REALLY SIMPLE ANSWER IS, LOOK, OBVIOUSLY THERE ARE HUGE VESTED INTERESTS THAT ARE PROTECTING THE STATUS QUO, WHICH IS VERY HEAVILY FOSSIL FUEL-DEPENDENT.

SO THAT'S NO SECRET.

I DON'T THINK AT THIS POINT ANYONE WOULD MAKE A SECRET OF THAT.

AND WE'RE SEEING -- CERTAINLY SEEING THIS ADMINISTRATION REALLY TRYING TO CATER TO FOSSIL FUEL INTERESTS AND REALLY TRYING TO KNEECAP OTHER EMERGING CLEAN TECHNOLOGY INDUSTRIES, THAT ONCE AGAIN IT'S HARD TO ARGUE WITH THAT.

I THINK THAT'S WHAT'S GOING ON.

SO THE ECONOMICS OF IT ARE, YOU KNOW, REALLY, REALLY INTENSE.

AND THERE ARE MANY NATIONS THAT ARE BASICALLY PETROL STATES, AND THEY ALSO HAVE A HUGE INTEREST IN NOT TRANSFORMING THE GLOBAL ECONOMY.

THAT'S A BASIS.

THE QUESTION WHY THOSE OF US WHO ARE NOT PETROL STATES ARE NOT HEAVILY INVESTED IN FOSSIL FUEL INDUSTRY, WHY AREN'T WE ALL OUTRAGED AND TAKING TO THE STREETS TO DEMAND THIS KIND OF CHANGE IS A QUESTION THAT I REALLY CAN'T ANSWER.

AS YOU SAY, IT DOES HAPPEN.

THERE ARE MOMENTS WHEN FOR WHATEVER REASON PUBLIC OPINION, PEOPLE GET REALLY UPSET AND TAKE TO THE STREETS AND DEMAND ACTION ON CLIMATE CHANGE.

AND THEN WE SORT OF SEE THIS LULL AGAIN.

AND I THINK ONE OF THE PROBLEMS IS THAT CLIMATE CHANGE IS A PROBLEM THAT IS GOING TO LAST FOREVER.

IT'S GOING TO BE A PROBLEM FOR THE REST OF, YOU KNOW, MY LIFE AND YOUR LIFE AND PROBABLY OF ANYONE LISTENING TO THIS TONIGHT.

AND SO IT'S NOT SOMETHING THAT YOU CAN JUST SAY IT'S SOLVED AND LET'S MOVE ON, AND THAT'S A REALLY HARD PROBLEM POLITICALLY TO DEAL WITH.

>> WATCHING THIS FOR 20 YEARS NOW AND CONSIDERING WHERE THE UNITED STATES WAS IN THE CLIMATE CONVERSATION VERSUS WHERE WE ARE TODAY, WHAT GIVES THE WORLD ANY -- I DON'T KNOW -- SENSE THAT OUR WORD MATTERS?

>> WELL, IN THE CLIMATE REALM I THINK THAT PEOPLE ONLY TAKE THE U.S.

SERIOUSLY BECAUSE WE ARE SUCH A BIG ECONOMY.

WE'RE SUCH A BIG ENERGY USER.

WE'RE SUCH A BIG ENERGY PRODUCER, AND WE ARE SUCH A TECHNOLOGICAL POWERHOUSE, AND I THINK THE SENSE IS, WELL, YOU CAN'T SOLVE THIS WITHOUT THE U.S.

YOU CAN ONLY DEAL WITH IT WITH THE U.S.

SO BASICALLY WE HAVE TO DEAL WITH THE U.S.

WHEN THEY'RE WILLING TO BE IN THE ROOM.

NOW THE U.S.

IS NOT EVEN WILLING TO BE IN THE ROOM.

YOU KNOW, THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION HAS WITHDRAWN FROM THE PARIS AGREEMENT.

THEY COULD STILL BE AT THIS COP IN BRAZIL, BUT THEY'RE NOT VERY POINTEDLY.

AND SOME PEOPLE HAVE I THINK ARE SAYING, WELL, SO BE IT.

THE WORLD IS GOING TO HAVE TO MOVE AHEAD ON ITS OWN.

AND ONE OF THE BIG DEVELOPMENTS IN RECENT YEARS HAS BEEN CHINA REALLY TAKING THE LEAD ON TECHNOLOGIES LIKE, YOU KNOW, SOLAR PANELS AND ELECTRIC CARS.

AND A LOT OF PEOPLE WILL SAY -- AND I'M NOT AN ECONOMIST, BUT A LOT OF PEOPLE ARE SAYING THEY'RE GOING TO ETOO OUR LUNCH BECAUSE WE'RE GOING BACK TO 19th CENTURY TECHNOLOGIES, AND THEY ARE MOVING INTO THE 22nd CENTURY ECONOMY.

SO THAT IS A QUESTION, YOU KNOW, WHETHER WE'RE NOT ONLY DOING A DISSERVICE TO THE WORLD BECAUSE WE'RE SIMPLY NOT WILLING TO BE THERE AT THE TABLE AND ACKNOWLEDGE OUR ROLE IN THIS HUGE GLOBAL PROBLEM, THIS PROBLEM WE'VE FOISTED OFF ON PEOPLE IN THE DEVELOPING WORLD WHO DID VERY LITTLE TO CAUSE IT.

BUT ALSO ARE WE SHOOTING OURSELVES -- AND I HOPE THIS ISN'T TOO MUCH OF A NICHE METAPHOR -- IN THE FOOT BY TURNING OUR BACK ON THE ECONOMY OF THE FUTURE.

>> THE BOOK IS CALLED "LIFE ON A LITTLE-KNOWN PLANET."

ELIZABETH KOLBERT, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR WRITING THE BOOK AND YOUR TIME TODAY.

>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY TONIGHT THE STRATOSPHERE, ROGER FEDERER, ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYERS OF ALL-TIME, HAS BEEN ELECTED INTO THE INTERNATIONAL TENNIS HALL OF FAME.

NOW, YOU MIGHT HAVE THOUGHT HE WAS ALREADY IN THERE, BUT HE'S ONLY JUST BECOME ELIGIBLE AS IT'S BEEN FIVE YEARS SINCE HE WAS LAST ON TOUR.

IT'S A TIMELY RECOGNITION OF HIS 24-YEAR CAREER FROM A RACKET SMASHING JUNIOR SPORTSMAN TO THE SERENE AND DETERMINED FIRST MAN TO WIN 20 GRAND SLAM TITLES.

AND WHILE HE WAS STILL WINNING I MET FEDERER AT WIMBLEDON, AND I ASKED HIM HOW HE BECAME MASTER OF HIS CRAFT.

>> I WAS A MATCH PLAYER MORE THAN A PRACTICE GUY, BUT I UNDERSTOOD THAT WITHOUT HARD WORK YOU'RE NOT GOING TO GET ANYWHERE.

AND THEN I MAYBE WAS ONE OF THE FIRST WHO WAS REALLY ABLE TO PLAY ON ALL SURFACES QUITE COMFORTABLY, ACTUALLY, THROUGHOUT.

AND THAT WOULD ALLOW ME TO HAVE MORE SUCCESS IN MORE PLACES, AND I BECAME VERY CONFIDENT AS WELL.

>> IN HIS OWN WORDS, THAT IS IT FOR NOW.

THANK YOU FOR WATCHING, AND GOOD-BYE FROM NEW YORK.