“People Will Die:” Fmr. CDC Official Warns Against HIV/AIDS Cuts

>>> 2025 HAS BEEN A PIVOTAL YEAR IN THE UNITED STATES MARKED BY MAJOR FAST MOVING CHANGES IN POLITICS, THE ECONOMY, AND, OF COURSE, HEALTHCARE.

PHYSICIANS ACROSS AMERICA ARE GRAPPLING WITH THE CONTROVERSIAL CDC ADVISORY PANEL DECISION TO END UNIVERSAL HEPATITIS B SHOTS FOR BABIES, THIS AFTER THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT DID NOT COMMEMORATE WORLD AIDS DAY LAST WEEK, SHAKING UP ITS APPROACH TO HIV-AIDS TREATMENT AND PREVENTION.

IN AUGUST DR.

DEMETRE DASKALAKIS RESIGNED FROM THE CDC, ACCUSING THE AGENCY UNDER ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

OF IGNORING SCIENCE.

HERE HE IS WITH HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> DR.

DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WORLD AIDS DAY JUST WENT BY AND THERE WAS A STATE DEPARTMENT "REFRAIN FROM PUBLICLY PROMOTING WORLD AIDS DAY THROUGH ANY COMMUNICATION CHANNELS, INCLUDING SOCIAL MEDIA, MEDIA ENGAGEMENTS, SPEECHES, OR OTHER PUBLIC- FACING MESSAGING," AND YOU'RE AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN WHO HAS DEDICATED HIS CAREER TO FIGHTING HIV AND AIDS.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THIS?

>> SADLY, IT WAS ONE OF NOT BEING SURPRISED.

I THINK THIS WAS REALLY SYMPTOMATIC OF THE BIGGER PROBLEM, WHICH IS THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION DISMANTLING SO MANY OF THE SYSTEMS GLOBALLY AND DOMESTICALLY THAT HAVE BEEN CRITICAL IN GETTING US TO A PLACE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST HIV WHERE WE COULD POTENTIALLY SEE THE END OF THE HIV EPIDEMIC IN SIGHT NOT ONLY IN THE U.S., BUT AROUND THE WORLD.

>> THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS WAS SAYING AWARENESS IS NOT A STRATEGY.

THIS DOESN'T NECESSARILY SOLVE HIV.

WE'RE DOING LOTS OF REAL WORK WITH OUR COUNTRIES TO TRY TO BRING THE NUMBER OF INFECTIONS WHAT'S WRONG WITH THEIR THINKING?

>> YEAH.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THEIR THINKING IS --I AGREE WITH THEM, THAT THE COMMEMORATION DAY IS NOT A STRATEGY, BUT THEY'RE DISMANTLING ALL THE STRATEGIES.

SO I THINK THAT IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A BAIT AND SWITCH TO SAY THE COMMENT RACING THE COMMEMORATION DAY IS NOT A STRATEGY WHEN THEY ARE REALLY ATTACKING PEPFAR WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SAVING LIVES.

IT IS CRITICAL FOR SEEING PEOPLE GET ANTI-VIRAL THERAPY AND ALSO ACCOUNTS FOR ABOUT 90% OF THE GLOBAL PRE-EXPOSURE PROPHYLAXIS FOR THE WORLD.

THAT IS A STRATEGY AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

THERE'S DOUBLE SPEAK AND DEFLECTION FROM THE REALITY THAT YES, NOT COMMEMORATING WORLD AIDS DAY DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THERE'S NO COMMITMENT.

WHAT MEANS THERE'S NO COMMITMENT IS THE ACTIONS THEY'VE TAKEN SHOWING THEY WANT TO DISMANTLE THE STRATEGIES THAT WORKED IN THE PAST.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT PEPFAR.

>> YEAH.

>> I THINK FOR PEOPLE THAT AREN'T THAT FAMILIAR WITH IT, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN SUPPORTED BY EVERY ADMINISTRATION SINCE IT'S BEEN FORMED STARTING WITH THE REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS, RIGHT?

AND THIS IS CREDITED WITH THE TYPES OF LIFE SAVING THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LITERALLY IN THE 24 TO 26 MILLION HUMAN BEINGS RANGE AND IT DELIVERS ALL SORTS OF HIV TESTING, ANTI- RETROVIRAL THERAPIES, PREVENTION OF MOTHER-TO-CHILD TRANSMISSION, BUT IT KIND OF HAS IN THE UNITED STATES A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT PARENTS, IF YOU WILL, WHEN IT COMES TO FUNDING.

IT'S GOT THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND THEN HHS OR CDC.

SO WHAT SPECIFICALLY IS HAPPENING TO THOSE SOURCES OF FUNDING THAT ARE THREATENING THE SUCCESS OR CONTINUANCE OF PEPFAR?

>> THE CERTAINTY AROUND FUNDING HAS RESULTED IN PARALYSIS OF THE PROGRAM.

SO THE FIRST IS THAT USAID WAS COMPLETELY DISMANTLED IN THE ADMINISTRATION.

FOR A WHILE THEY ACTUALLY EVEN STOPPED SENDING RESOURCES TO THE COUNTRIES THAT WERE BEING SUPPORTED BY PEPFAR AND THROUGH VARIOUS LEGAL INJUNCTIONS, ET CETERA SOME OF THAT MONEY FLOWS AGAIN, BUT ULTIMATELY THERE HAS BEEN AN INTERRUPTION IN PROVIDING LIFE-SAVING ANTI- RETROVIRAL THERAPY WHICH HAS MANIFESTED ITSELF IN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE ALREADY DIED FROM SOME OF THE MODELS I'VE SEEN.

THERE'S THE DISMANTLING OF USAID AND NOW ALSO LIKELY AN ATTACK ON CDC WITH THE PRESIDENT'S BUDGET REALLY NOT SUPPORTING GLOBAL PUBLIC HEALTH AT CDC.

SO THAT COULD MEAN UNFUNDING WHAT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PUBLIC HEALTH INTERVENTIONS GLOBALLY WHICH IS PEPFAR THAT HAS SAVED, AS YOU SAID, 26 PLUS MILLION LIVES.

>> JUST TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE FOR PEOPLE, I THINK GLOBALLY THERE WERE 1.3 MILLION NEW HIV INFECTIONS, RIGHT?

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE HAVE COMPLETELY BEATEN.

IT IS STILL HAPPENING.

IT IS STILL BEING TRANSMITTED FROM CHILDREN TO MOTHERS, BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS.

WHAT'S THE STATUS OF PEPFAR TODAY?

I MEAN IF THESE SOURCES OF FUNDING ARE THREATENED?

>> PEPFAR'S FUTURE IS TENUOUS AT BEST.

IT SEEMS AS IF THERE IS SOME ONGOING COMMITMENT TO PEPFAR, BUT IT SEEMS AS IT IS POTENTIALLY VERY SHORT-LIVED AND DOESN'T REALLY TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE CRITICAL ROLE OF PEPFAR IN DOING TWO THINGS OTHER THAN DOING SOMETHING VERY GOOD FOR MAINTAINING THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE GLOBALLY.

IT MAINTAINS GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY BECAUSE IT CREATES AN INFRASTRUCTURE IF WE HAVE TO RESPOND TO OTHER BIG INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND SO THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL.

THERE IS NOT ONLY A RELEASE OF THE ACCELERATOR ON THE PROGRESS TO END THE HIV EPIDEMIC, THIS ADMINISTRATION IS PUMPING THE SO IT'S NOT JUST SLOWING DOWN.

IF PEPFAR GOES AWAY, THAT MEANS STOPPING THE ENTIRE STORY.

THAT'S GOING TO NOT MEAN JUST SOME STRANGE POLICY ISSUE.

IT'S GOING TO MEAN PEOPLE WILL DIE.

>> THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S RATIONALE OR THINKING IS LOOK, WE HAVE TO STOP BEING THE PEOPLE THAT ARE THE ONLY ONES WRITING THE CHECK.

WE HAVE TO TRANSITION THIS TO THE HOST COUNTRIES.

WE HAVE TO HELP THEM GET TO A POINT WHERE THEY CAN FIGHT HIV ON THEIR OWN.

JUST THURSDAY THE U.S.

AND KENYA SIGNED, I GUESS, THE FIRST AMERICA FIRST GLOBAL HEALTH AGREEMENT WHICH WE'RE GOING TO SEE THE U.S.

CONTRIBUTE ABOUT 1.7 BILLION TOWARDS HIV, AIDS, MALARIA, TUBERCULOSIS TREATMENT AND PREVENTION IN KENYA AND THE KENYANS HAVE TO COME UP WITH 850 MILLION.

THEY THINK OR SAY THERE ARE GOING TO BE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT WILL DO THIS.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT STRATEGY?

>> YEAH.

I THINK REALLY THERE'S ALREADY BEEN A PEPFAR STRATEGY FOR TRANSITIONING AND IT REALLY WAS ONE THAT WAS METERED AND DESIGNED TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WERE NO CHILDREN OR ADULTS LEFT BEHIND WHO WILL SUFFER OR DIE FROM HIV.

INSTEAD WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS AN EMERGENCY BAILOUT BECAUSE FOR THE LAST LIKE EIGHT OR NINE MONTHS THERE HAS BEEN NO PLANNING ABOUT WHAT TO DO AROUND PEPFAR.

THERE HAS ONLY BEEN DESTRUCTION AND DECOMPOSITION OF THE PROGRAMS THAT SUPPORT THE WORK.

SO ONE COUNTRY HAVING AN AGREEMENT MEANS THAT WE'RE MANY, MANY, MANY COUNTRIES AWAY FROM HAVING WHAT WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE GLOBALLY.

I THINK THE OTHER PART THAT IS IMPORTANT IS THE U.S.

IS THE GLOBAL LEADER IN PUBLIC HEALTH.

IT IS OUR MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO SUPPORT THESE COUNTRIES.

IF WE DECIDE TO CHANGE OUR FUNDING STRATEGY, WE NEED TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT, IN FACT, DOES NOT LET PEOPLE DIE.

AND SO I THINK THAT THE ARGUMENT IS A GREAT ONE IN TERMS OF TRANSITIONING RESPONSIBILITY AND GIVING, I GUESS, MORE DOMINION TO THESE COUNTRIES.

NEEDS TO BE DONE WITH A STRATEGY, NOT WITH A BILATERAL AGREEMENT THAT, IN FACT, MAKES AID TO THE COUNTRY TRANSACTIONAL BECAUSE THE OTHER PART OF THOSE AGREEMENTS IS YOU HAVE TO GIVE US YOUR DATA AND YOU HAVE TO GIVE US YOUR SPECIMENS AND THAT IS REALLY WHAT IS UNDERLYING ALL OF THIS.

THEY ARE TRYING TO TRADE AID, SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE LIVING WITH HIV, FOR PUBLIC HEALTH INTELLIGENCE AND THAT IS THEIR STRATEGY TO REPLACE THE W.H.O.

AND THAT IS NOT A STRATEGY THAT IS EITHER MORAL, NOR POTENTIALLY ONE THAT IS DURABLE.

>> WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIV ON A GLOBAL STAGE.

I WANT TO BRING FOR OUR AMERICAN AUDIENCE A LITTLE PERSPECTIVE TO THIS, TOO.

WE'VE HAD ALMOST 40,000 NEW HIV INFECTIONS IN 2023.

I THINK THE NUMBERS ARE FAIRLY SIMILAR IN 2024 AND I WONDER, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING LIKE PRE-EXPOSURE TO PROFILE PROFYLAXIS AVAILABLE.

>> THIS IS A STIGMA AND ACCESS GAME IN THE UNITED STATES.

PEOPLE DO NOT ACCESS CARE.

THEY DON'T ACCESS TESTING BECAUSE IT'S SCARY.

PEOPLE ARE MADE INVISIBLE BECAUSE OF THE STIGMA THAT IS GETTING EVEN WORSE IN THE UNITED STATES WITH SOME OF THE ACTIVITY AGAINST LGBTQ SINCE THEY ARE SUCH AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF WHAT HAPPENS DOMESTICALLY FOR HIV.

YOU HAVE AMAZING TECHNOLOGY THAT'S GOING TO SIT ON THE SHELF BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO GET TESTED.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ACCESS PRE- EXPOSURE PROPHYLAXIS AND THAT'S GOING TO MEAN MORE HIV INFECTION.

I'M THINKING ABOUT NEW YORK.

THEY DO AMAZING WORK IN HIV AND THEIR NEW EPIDEMIOLOGY SHOWS AN THAT IS NOT GOOD.

SO THAT IS A TREND THAT YOU'RE GOING TO, I THINK, SEE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AND I NEED TO BE VERY CLEAR.

IT'S GOING TO BE WORSE IN STATES THAT CAN LEAST AFFORD IT.

SO I WOULD EXPECT THAT WE'LL ALSO SEE INCREASING HIV RATES IN THE SOUTH GIVEN SOME OF THE ISSUES RELATED TO ACCESS AS WELL AS STIGMA.

I'VE SEEN PATIENTS IN ATLANTA AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN SO MUCH STIGMA ACTUALLY INTERACT WITH AN INFECTION TO RESULT IN SOME TERRIBLE OUTCOMES IN THE PEOPLE THAT I'VE TAKEN CARE OF.

SO I THINK THIS IS A PREVIEW OF WHAT'S TO COME.

>> YOU RECENTLY WERE AT THE CDC.

YOU WERE THE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES AND YOU VERY PUBLICLY RESIGNED THIS PAST AUGUST AND IN YOUR RESIGNATION LETTER I JUST WANT TO QUOTE ONE PHRASE.

"I AM UNABLE TO SERVE IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT TREATS CDC AS A TOOL TO GENERATE POLICIES AND SCIENTIFIC REALITY AND ARE DESIGNED TO HURT RATHER THAN TO IMPROVE THE PUBLIC'S HEALTH."

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SPECIFIC KIND OF POLICIES THAT THE CDC WAS GOING AFTER THAT MADE YOU SAY I CAN'T BE PART OF THIS ANYMORE?

>> I THINK THE LIST CONTINUES TO GROW.

I THINK ONE GREAT EXAMPLE WAS THE CREATION OF AN AUTISM IN VACCINES WEB PAGE THAT TRIED TO LINK AUTISM AND VACCINES DESPITE DECADES OF SCIENCE DEMONSTRATING THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

IN EFFECT, WITHOUT ANY NEW DATA CDC LIKE A WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING PUT UP A WEBSITE THAT SAID THAT THERE'S NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

IT IS NOT SCIENTIFICALLY ACCURATE TO SAY VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM AND THAT IS BASED ON NOTHING.

WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS THE CDC IS BEING CREATED INTO A RUBBER STAMP THAT, IN FACT, CLOAKS CONSPIRACY AND PSEUDOSCIENCE IN THE GARB OF SCIENCE AND REALLY VALID SCIENTIFIC STATEMENTS.

WE'RE LITERALLY SEEING THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES MAKE DECISIONS WITH NO PRESENTED DATA.

THEY MADE A DECISION ABOUT HOW VACCINES SHOULD BE ADMINISTERED TO BABIES AND WHAT TESTING SHOULD BE DONE FOR VACCINES THAT ARE BASED ON ABSOLUTELY NO MEDICAL OR SCIENTIFIC DATA.

THAT'S WHY I RESIGNED.

IF I HADN'T RESIGNED MONTHS AGO, I WOULD HAVE RESIGNED TODAY.

>> IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE ABOUT HEPATITIS B, I MEAN THIS IS SOMETHING DECADES LONG NOW WE MADE A RECOMMENDATION THAT NEWBORNS GET VACCINATED FOR THIS LIVER DISEASE, RIGHT?

AND THE RECENT RECOMMENDATION SAYS THAT PARENTS SHOULD CHECK WITH THEIR DOCTORS AND SHOULD NOT GIVE SHOTS ANY EARLIER THAN 2 MONTHS.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN WHAT WE SAW WITH THIS DECISION AROUND THE BIRTH DOSE OF HEPATITIS B, FIRST OF ALL, THEY DIDN'T REALLY CHANGE VERY MUCH.

SO SHARED CLINICAL DECISION MAKING MEANS YOU TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR ABOUT WHAT VACCINES YOUR KIDS SHOULD GET.

THAT'S WHAT WE DO ALL THE TIME.

THAT'S JUST TRYING TO HAVE SOME SORT OF PERFORMATIVE DEMONSTRATION OF SUPPORT OF PEOPLE WHO THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE MEDICAL FREEDOM.

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SEEING.

IT ACTUALLY HASN'T CHANGED VERY MUCH.

ON THE FLIP SIDE, THE UNCERTAINTY CREATED BY THIS DISCUSSION IMPLIES THAT THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS VACCINE, THAT THERE IS MORE RISK THAN BENEFIT AND THAT IS JUST NOT CORRECT.

THE KIDS THAT GET HEPATITIS, ABOUT 11% OF THEM DO NOT HAVE A MOTHER OR DO NOT HAVE A MOTHER WITH A POSITIVE HEPATITIS B TEST.

I FIND IT INTOLERABLE IN THE UNITED STATES TO LET ABOUT 11% OF THOSE KIDS FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS BECAUSE THEY GOT IT FROM A CAREGIVER.

KIDS GO TO DAY CARE.

KIDS HAVE OTHER CAREGIVERS.

THERE'S NO AMOUNT OF MEDICAL HISTORY IN AN IMPERFECT SYSTEM THAT WILL TELL YOU WHICH KIDS ARE AT RISK BEYOND THE FACT MOTHER IS NEGATIVE FOR HEPATITIS.

SO THERE'S NO SCIENCE BEHIND THE DECISION.

IT'S ABOUT VIBES.

THERE'S A FEELING AND THESE ARE THE FEELINGS THAT HAVE BEEN ELEVATED TO THE PLACE OF SCIENCE USING THAT CDC RUBBER STAMP AND THAT'S GOING TO END UP RESULT IN CHILDREN GETTING HEPATITIS B.

90% OF THEM WILL GO ON TO CHRONIC INFECTION AND 25% OF THEM WILL DIE EARLY OF THAT INFECTION.

SO AS SOMEONE ON THE COMMITTEE SAID, THIS COMMITTEE IS NOW GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR A CHANGE IN POLICY THAT WILL DO HARM AND THAT IS AGAINST OUR HIPPOCRATIC OATH AS DOCTORS.

>> SO YOU HAVE MOVED ON AND YOU HAVE DECIDED TO BE THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER A COMMUNITY IN NEW YORK CITY THAT PROVIDES SERVICES FOR THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY.

WHAT TYPE OF WORK AND WHY?

>> IT'S GOING BACK TO MY ROOTS.

I MEAN SO MUCH OF THE WORK I DID IN NEW YORK BEFORE I WENT TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS SPECIFICALLY FOCUSING ON THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY.

SO I'M SORT OF GOING BACK TO THE ROOTS OF WHAT BROUGHT ME TO PUBLIC HEALTH.

THE WHY IS I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY POINT IN BEING INVOLVED IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT'S ACTUALLY LOOKING TO DESTROY PUBLIC HEALTH THAN BUILD IT.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S PART OF MY CAREER IS REALLY MOVING BETWEEN LOCAL AND NATIONAL AND DOING IT SEAMLESSLY.

SO I THINK RIGHT NOW THE GRASSROOTS IS THE PLACE THAT WE NEED TO BE TO PROTECT THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE BECAUSE IT'S QUITE CLEAR THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT.

>> GIVEN WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT INSIDE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, IS IT EASY TO RECRUIT?

ARE THERE OTHER OF YOUR PEERS THAT YOU SEE WHO ARE STRUGGLING WITH THESE DECISIONS WHO ARE ON THE FENCE?

>> I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY HARD TO RECRUIT PEOPLE INTO FEDERAL SERVICE, ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC HEALTH.

I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES ARE ACTIVELY SEARCHING FOR OTHER ROLES BECAUSE THEY'RE SEEING THEIR EFFECTIVENESS IN THIS SORT OF GREAT.

THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE REALLY TRYING TO STEADY THE SHIP AND THEY'RE CENTERING A LOT OF TURMOIL IN THEIR OWN LIVES BECAUSE WHEN YOU SEE THINGS LIKE THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES, ON CAPRICIOUS ANNOUNCEMENTS AROUND VACCINES AND AUTISM, IT'S REALLY HARD TO SAY THEY'RE OUR HEROES.

IT'S LIKE AN AIRPLANE AND RIGHT NOW THE CDC SCIENTISTS ARE ON THE AIRPLANE HELD HOSTAGE BY THIS LEADERSHIP AT HHS AND REALLY WE NEED TO SEND ALL THE LOVE TO THOSE SCIENTISTS BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING THEIR BEST TO DO THEIR JOB, BUT THAT PLANE IS NOT BEING NAVIGATED BY ANYONE WHO SHOULD NAVIGATE IT.

>> I THINK THERE ARE ALSO PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES WHO THINK OKAY, FINE.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A NEW ADMINISTRATION.

WE CAN FIX THIS.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT THINKING?

YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE WHICH HAS HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE TO REBUILD?

>> THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP AT HHS, SECRETARY KENNEDY AND THE PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR HIM, ARE ABLE TO IN ONE OR TWO MINUTES DESTROY DECADES OF WORK AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING, CREATING MISTRUST, YANKING FUNDING FOR SIGNIFICANT WORK.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE WORK AND RESOURCES, NOT ONLY DOES THE WORKFORCE PIPELINE DRIES UP, BUT THE INNOVATION PIPELINE DRIES UP.

WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS LESS SCIENCE, LESS SCIENTISTS AND ULTIMATELY THAT'S GOING TO HAVE RAMIFICATIONS FOR DECADES AND AGAIN, WHAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT IS THIS ADMINISTRATION WILL PASS AND A NEW ADMINISTRATION WILL COME, BUT THE IMPACTS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY ARE GOING TO BE FELT FOR DECADES BECAUSE OF HOW HARD IT WILL BE TO REBUILD IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT'S BEEN CREATED.

>> DR.

DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.