Trump’s Fmr. NATO Ambassador on Trump, Putin and Nuclear Arms Control

>> ON THURSDAY, THE LAST REMAINING NUCLEAR ARMS CONTROL TREATY BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA IS SET TO EXPIRE.

THE END OF NEW START MARKS THE FIRST TIME IN MORE THAN FIVE DECADES THAT WASHINGTON AND MOSCOW HAVE NO FORMAL MITTS ON THEIR NUCLEAR ARSENAL.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR GLOBAL SECURITY AND FOR THE ALREADY STRAINED U.S./RUSSIA RELATIONS?

ALTERATIONS AND SPEAKS WITH BAILEY HAS INJUN, FORMER AMBASSADOR TO NATO ABOUT WHAT IS AT STAKE.

>> THANK YOU.

WELCOME TO THE SHOW.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.

GREAT TO BE WITH YOU.

>> THIS WEEK, THE LAST NUCLEAR ARMS CONTROL PACT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES AND RUSSIA CALLED NEW START IS EXPIRING.

TELL ME WHAT IT WAS ABOUT AND WHY ARE WE LETTING IT EXPIRE?

>> IT IS BECAUSE THERE WAS NO VERIFICATION.

THERE WAS NOT ENOUGH VERIFICATION IN THE TREATY THAT THE AMERICANS FELT COMFORTABLE WITH AND THERE HAS BEEN A NEGOTIATION GOING ON FOR MONTHS TO TRY TO GET A BETTER VERIFICATION AND I THINK THAT WAS NOT ACCEPTABLE.

I THINK IT IS IMPORTANT THAT -- IT IS MORE IMPORTANT THAT WE HAVE THE VERIFICATION, I THINK, THAN TO HAVE A TREATY.

>> WAIT A MINUTE.

WITHOUT THE TREATY, WE WON'T HAVE ANY VERIFICATION, RIGHT?

>> WELL, RUSSIA HAS SHOWN HOW UNTRUSTWORTHY IT IS, WALTER.

LOOK AT WHAT THEY SAY ABOUT WHAT THEY ARE DOING IN UKRAINE.

THEY ACT LIKE UKRAINE STARTED THIS WAR.

ARE YOU KIDDING?

I DON'T THINK VERIFICATION -- I THINK YOU HAVE TO HAVE SAFEGUARDS IF YOU ARE GOING TO HAVE A REAL TREATY.

YOU KNOW, WHEN I WAS AN NATO, REALLY, RUSSIA HAD BEEN VIOLATING THE INF TREATY FOR YEARS.

>> THE INTERMEDIATE NUCLEAR FORCE ONE?

>> YEAH.

>> INTERMEDIA.

THEY HAD BEEN VIOLATING IT.

THEY KEPT DENYING THAT THEY WERE VIOLATING IT AND WE HAD PICTURES.

WE HAD PICTURES OF THE SERIAL NUMBER THAT WAS RUSSIAN.

WE WENT THROUGH BOTH REPUBLICAN AND DEMOCRATIC ADMINISTRATIONS TRYING TO KEEP THAT GOING BUT FINALLY, WE HAD TO WITHDRAW FROM THE INF TREATY BECAUSE WE HAD TO HAVE THE BIG DEFENSE ABOUT WHAT THEY WERE BUILDING THAT THEY SAID THEY WEREN'T BUILDING.

I AM NOT GOING TO REALLY QUESTION THAT WE DON'T HAVE AN AGREEMENT AS MUCH AS I WOULD RATHER HAVE AN AGREEMENT THAT WAS VERIFIABLE.

>> WITHOUT THE VERIFICATION, WE ARE BETTER OFF, YOU ARE SAYING, WITHOUT AN AGREEMENT, SO THAT WE CAN START BUILDING COUNTERMEASURES.

IS THAT RIGHT?

WHAT WOULD THOSE COUNTERMEASURES BE?

>> THAT IS WHAT WE HAD WITH THE INF TREATY.

UNDER THE TREATY, BOTH RUSSIA AND THE UNITED STATES COULDN'T PRODUCE A DEFENSIVE WEAPON AGAINST THE INF, THE INTERMEDIATE MISSILES AND WE WERE IN COMPLIANCE AND THEY WERE NOT SO WE FELT THAT IT WAS BETTER AT THE TIME.

>> IF WE READ -- WITHDRAW FROM THIS NEW START TREATY, WOULD WE BE ABLE TO BUILD MORE WEAPONS AND CAN WE BUILD MORE WEAPONS THAT ARE DEFENSIVE?

>> I DO THINK WE HAVE TO HAVE A DEFENSE AND I THINK THAT IS WHAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT DOING NOW, IS HAVING A DEFENSE THAT WE KNOW WE COULD INTERCEPT OR REPEL, WHATEVER THEY CAN PRODUCE OR ARE PRODUCING.

YOU KNOW, I LIKE HAVING TREATIES THAT WE KNOW CAN BE VERIFIED THAT IF YOU CAN'T VERIFY, AND ESPECIALLY WITH RUSSIA, DOING SO MANY INCLUSIVE TACTICS WITH UKRAINE -- WE SEE IT RIGHT NOW.

THEY ARE IN A SITUATION WHERE WE SEE EXACTLY WHAT RUSSIA IS DOING AND THEY ARE DENYING IT BOLDFACED, NOT TELLING THE TRUTH.

I THINK IT IS A WORTHY QUESTION BUT IF WE ARE NOT ABLE TO LEAVE THAT ASIDE, THAT WE CANNOT DO WHAT WE NEED TO DO TO PROTECT OUR PEOPLE, THEN I THINK WE ARE BETTER OFF WITHOUT A BAD AGREEMENT.

>> YOU RAISED THE RONALD REAGAN A SLOGAN OF TRUST BUT VERIFY AND THAT IS NOT THE CASE BUT ONE OF THE THINGS THAT REAGAN BELIEVED WHEN HE DID IT BACK WHEN I WAS COVERING STRATEGIC ARMS REDUCTION TALK WAS HE FELT THAT THE TREATY ITSELF WAS NOT THE MOST IMPORTANT THING.

THAT TALKS, THE PROCESS, THE NEGOTIATION ACTUALLY WERE HELPFUL.

DO YOU AGREE WITH THAT?

>> CERTAINLY, YES.

THE NEGOTIATION IS WHERE YOU SEE WHAT THE PROBLEMS ARE.

YOU SEE WHAT THE MOST IMPORTANT PRIORITY IS AND, YES, I THINK THAT IS CERTAINLY A VALID ISSUE BUT WE HAVE ALSO BEEN IN TALKS WITH RUSSIA FOR MONTHS, IF NOT YEARS ABOUT ALL THESE TREATIES, INF, START, NEW START, TRYING TO GET THIS DONE RIGHT AND AGAIN, I THINK A BAD TREATY IS WORSE THAN NO TREATY AND WE JUST HAVE TO HAVE THE INTELLIGENCE AND WE HAVE TO HAVE OUR OWN PROTECTIONS, OUR OWN DEFENSE SO THAT WHATEVER WE KNOW THEIR PRIORITIES ARE, WHICH IS AGGRESSION -- WALTER, WHEN I WAS AN NATO, AND I HAVE TALKED TO WHITAKER WHO IS STILL THERE, RUSSIA WANTS TO RE- CREATE THE SOVIET UNION.

THAT IS PUTIN'S GOAL HERE.

THAT IS WHY HE HAS INVADED COUNTRIES THAT ARE NOT NATO COUNTRIES LIKE GEORGIA AND UKRAINE AND HE IS TRYING TO TAKE ONE STEP, SEE WHAT WE WILL DO AND IF WE DON'T REALLY RETALIATE OR STAND OUR GROUND, HE KEEPS GOING AND FRANKLY, THAT IS WHAT HAPPENED WITH CRIMEA.

HE TOOK CRIMEA IN 2014 AND WE SORT OF COMPLAINED ABOUT IT, SAID IT WAS TERRIBLE AND THEN WALKED AWAY.

WE DIDN'T REALLY STAND UP AND SAY LEAVE CRIMEA.

THEY HAVE MILITARIZED CRIMEA.

AT THE SAME TIME, VIOLATING THE INF TREATY.

SO, YOU HAVE TO SIT THERE AND SAY HOW MUCH LONGER ARE WE GOING TO WATCH THIS HAPPEN AND NOT DO ENOUGH TO DETER RUSSIA'S INVASIONS.

>> LET ME ASK YOU THAT QUESTION.

ARE WE DOING ENOUGH TO DETER RUSSIA'S INVASION OF UKRAINE?

>> NO.

WE ARE NOT.

WE ARE NOT DOING ENOUGH.

WE SHOULD BE COMING DOWN ON RUSSIA'S ECONOMY RIGHT NOW.

TODAY, OR TOMORROW, I THINK WE ARE GOING TO SEE THAT INDIA HAS -- SAID THEY ARE GOING TO STOP BUYING OIL FROM RUSSIA.

THAT IS HUGE.

THE COUNTRIES THAT HAVE BEEN BUYING OIL FROM RUSSIA, CHINA AND INDIA ARE FUELING -- INCLUDING SOME IN EUROPE BECAUSE THEY DON'T HAVE OTHER CAPABILITIES BUT THAT IS GOING TO START REALLY HURTING RUSSIA'S ABILITY TO DO WHAT IT IS DOING IN UKRAINE.

YOU KNOW, WALTER, THAT THE UNITED STATES SENATE HAS OVER 80 VOTES, COMMITMENTS TO HUNKERING DOWN ON THE REAL EMBARGOES AND TARIFFS AGAINST COUNTRIES THAT WOULD BE CONTINUING TO BUY FROM RUSSIA AND SO FAR, THAT BILL HAS NOT GOTTEN TO THE PRESIDENT.

HE HAS SAID HE WOULD SIGN IT.

I THINK PASSING THAT BILL OUT OF THE SENATE, TAKING INTO THE HOUSE, HAVING THE PRESIDENT SIGN IT SO THAT YOU HAVE A STRONGER ECONOMIC AGAINST THE COUNTRIES THAT ARE FUELING WHAT RUSSIA IS DOING IN UKRAINE, WHICH IS, IT IS WAR CRIMES.

>> TELL ME ABOUT TRUMP'S RELATIONSHIP WITH PRESIDENT PUTIN.

>> I THINK OF THE PRESIDENT HAS TRIED TO STOP THIS WAR AND I THINK THERE HAVE BEEN A LOT OF TALKS.

WE HAVE SEEN THAT.

I DON'T KNOW WHY WE HAVEN'T COME DOWN HARDER ON PUTIN.

I DON'T KNOW WHY PRESIDENT TRUMP HASN'T, ESPECIALLY AFTER THAT TERRIBLE MEETING IN ALASKA IN WHICH PUTIN WAS CONTINUING TO BOMB UKRAINE WHILE HE WAS, QUOTE, TALKING ABOUT A CEASEFIRE.

HE WAS BOMBING AS HE WAS COMING OVER TO MEET IN OUR COUNTRY WITH OUR PRESIDENT.

>> WHAT SHOULD PRESIDENT TRUMP HAVE DONE AT THAT POINT?

>> I THINK AT THAT POINT, WE SHOULD HAVE SEEN, HE SHOULD HAVE SEEN THAT RUSSIA IS BUYING TIME.

HE HAS NO INTEREST IN A PEACE AGREEMENT.

WHAT RUSSIA WANTS IS TO TAKE OVER THE PART OF UKRAINE THAT HE HASN'T ALREADY BEEN ABLE TO GET.

THAT IS WHAT THE BIG HOLDUP IS HERE.

I THINK THERE HAS BEEN A SERIOUS TALK ABOUT HAVING SECURITY FORCES THAT WOULD KEEP A CEASEFIRE GOING AND RUSSIA HAS SAID NO, WE ARE NOT GOING TO HAVE ANY EUROPEAN MILITARY IN THE PART OF UKRAINE THAT WE HAVE TAKEN BY FORCE.

IT IS A VERY TOUGH SITUATION.

I DON'T THINK WE ARE BEING TOUGH ENOUGH WITH THE ASSETS THAT WE HAVE AND I HOPE, ESPECIALLY, NOW THAT WE SEE THAT RUSSIA, IN THE PAST WEEK, PUTIN HAS HAD PRESS CONFERENCES AND TALKS IN WHICH HE HAS SAID, WE ARE NOT BUDGING.

WE ARE NOT GOING TO DO ANYTHING UNTIL WE CAN GET THE PART OF THE TERRITORY THAT WE HAVE NOT BEEN ABLE TO TAKE BY FORCE.

>> DURING PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, YOU WERE HIS AMBASSADOR TO NATO AND THERE WERE DISCUSSIONS OF THE NEW START TREATY THAT STARTED UP BACK THEN AND FOR A WHILE WAS EXTENDED.

TELL ME ABOUT TRUMP'S RELATION TO RUSSIA DURING THE FIRST TERM WHEN YOU ARE AN AMBASSADOR TO NATO AND HOW IT IS DIFFERENT THIS TIME.

>> WELL, WE DID THE WHOLE CHARADE WITH RUSSIA IN THE FIRST TERM ON THE INF TREATY AND WE JUST HELD OUR GROUND AND WE SAID, WE PROVED THAT RUSSIA WAS VIOLATING.

THEY KEPT DENYING IT.

THEY DENIED IT ALL THE WAY.

WHAT THE EUROPEANS ASK US TO HOLD OFF WHILE THEY EXPLAIN TO THEIR COUNTRY, THEIR POPULACE THAT RUSSIA WAS VIOLATING AND THAT IT PUT US IN JEOPARDY NOT TO HAVE THE DEFENSIVE WEAPONS AND WE GAVE THEM 60 DAYS AND THEY THEN WENT TO THEIR POPULACE AND AMERICA WITHDREW AND NATO PASSED A RESOLUTION APPROVING THAT AND SAYING, YES, THAT WAS THE RIGHT THING TO DO BUT YOU JUST HAVE TO BE VERY CLEAR EYED ABOUT PUTIN.

HE WILL TELL AN UNTRUTH TO YOUR FACE AND WE NOW KNOW THAT.

SECOND TERM, WE CERTAINLY KNOW THAT WE DEALT WITH HIM IN THE FIRST TERM.

WE HAD TO DO WHAT WAS REQUIRED UNDER THE TREATY, WHICH WAS TO NOT HAVE A DEFENSIVE WEAPON.

WE WITHDREW FROM THE TREATY HONORABLY.

WE KEPT ALL OF THE REQUIREMENTS OF THE TREATY BECAUSE RUSSIA WAS VIOLATING AND NEVER, EVER ADMITTED THAT THEY HAD BEEN VIOLATING IT BUT THEY WERE PUTTING THOSE MISSILES RIGHT ON THE EDGE OF CRIMEA SO THAT THEY WOULD BE IN THE RANGE OF EUROPE.

I THINK WE NOW ARE MORE CLEAR EYED.

I THINK THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS BEEN CRITICAL, SOMEWHAT, OF PRESIDENT PUTIN BUT NOW IS THE TIME TO COME DOWN, ESPECIALLY WITH INDIA SAYING THEY ARE NOT GOING TO BUY RUSSIAN OIL, CHINA STILL IS.

I THINK IT IS TIME TO RAMP UP THE PRESSURE ON THE ECONOMY OF RUSSIA WHICH IS KILLING PEOPLE AS WE SPEAK.

THEY ARE KILLING INNOCENT CIVILIANS.

THEY ARE DESTROYING THE INFRASTRUCTURE AND IT IS JUST ON EXCEPT DOUBLE FOR THE EUROPEANS AND AMERICANS AND NATO TO KEEP OUR SECURITY UMBRELLA OVER OUR POPULATIONS WHEN WE ARE DEALING WITH VLADIMIR PUTIN WHO DOESN'T -- WHO HAS NO GRAIN OF TRUTH OR HONOR ON HIS SIDE.

>> LET ME TALK ABOUT TWO THINGS THAT ARE COMING TOGETHER RIGHT NOW.

THE END OF THE STRATEGIC ARMS TREATY, THIS NEW START TREATY, AND SECONDLY, NATO COUNTRIES FEELING THAT THEY NO LONGER HAVE ABSOLUTE UNCONDITIONAL SUPPORT OF THE UNITED STATES.

DO YOU THINK THOSE TWO FORCES TOGETHER MIGHT CAUSE A COUNTRY LIKE GERMANY TO SAY NOW WE NEED NUCLEAR WEAPONS?

>> THAT IS A PRETTY STARK CONTRAST.

I THINK -- I DO THINK WE WILL REBUILD THE TRUST WITH THE EUROPEANS AND I DO THINK THE OUTCRY ABOUT GREENLAND WAS SOMETHING THAT THE PRESIDENT SAW AND SHIRLEY BEGINS TO SEE THAT THE EUROPEANS ARE NEVER GOING TO BE LIKE US.

THEY ARE NEVER GOING TO ASSESS A RISK AND THEN TO IMMEDIATELY DETER THAT RISK AND HAVE A STRATEGY TO DO IT.

THAT IS AMERICA.

WE ARE MUCH STRONGER WITH OUR EUROPEAN ALLIES AGREEING TOGETHER ON WHAT THE STRATEGY WOULD BE.

I WENT THROUGH THIS WHEN WE DETERMINED THAT CHINA WAS THE ADVERSARY AGAINST OUR COUNTRIES IN THE FUTURE AND THE EUROPEANS WERE CONCERNED ABOUT THEIR TRADE RELATIONS WITH CHINA BECAUSE IT IS VERY URGENT FOR THEIR ECONOMIES.

WE WORK TOGETHER ON BEGINNING TO BRING THE ASIA-PACIFIC COUNTRIES INTO THE SUMMITS THAT WE HAVE IN NATO.

SO, AUSTRALIA, NEW ZEALAND, JAPAN, KOREA, ARE NOW PART OF THE NATO SUMMITS BECAUSE WE DO WANT TO HAVE A UNITED FRONT AGAINST CHINESE AGGRESSION, WHICH THEY HAVE CERTAINLY PROVEN IN THOSE OTHER COUNTRIES.

WE WERE BUILDING A STRONG ALLIANCE IN THAT WAY AND NATO STILL IS BUT THE TRUST FACTOR WITH EUROPEANS IS REAL.

I HAVE CERTAINLY BEEN TALKING TO MY EUROPEAN COUNTERPARTS AND IT IS THERE AND I THINK WE CAN REBUILD BECAUSE WE DO HAVE A STRONG HISTORIC BASE AND WE KNOW THAT IF WE ARE GOING TO FACE OTHER MAJOR ADVERSARIES, RUSSIA AND CHINA, THAT WE NEED TO HAVE A UNITED FRONT AND THAT EVERYONE PRODUCES SOMETHING.

THEY DON'T PRODUCE AS MUCH AS WE DO BUT THEY PRODUCE A LOT AND WE NEED TO HAVE THAT ALLIANCE STRONG.

>> IN AN INTERVIEW WITH THE NEW YORK TIMES, WHEN HE WAS ASKED ABOUT THE NEW START TREATY EXPIRING, PRESIDENT TRUMP SAID, AND I QUOTE, IF IT EXPIRES, IT EXPIRES.

WE WILL JUST DO A BETTER AGREEMENT.

HE LATER ADDED IN THE INTERVIEW, YOU PROBABLY WANT TO GET A COUPLE OF OTHER PLAYERS INVOLVED ALSO.

WHAT DID HE MEAN BY THAT?

DO YOU AGREE?

>> FOR SURE.

ANY KIND OF LIMITATION WE HAVE ON NUCLEAR ARMS THAT WOULD BE VERIFIABLE WOULD BE VERY GOOD.

CHINA, WE TRIED TO PUT CHINA INTO IT.

THAT MAY BE THE POINT OF PRESIDENT IS TRYING TO MAKE.

WE TRIED TO PUT CHINA INTO IT WHEN WE STARTED THE NEGOTIATIONS WHEN I WAS STILL AT NATO AND HAVING A START TREATY WITH A LIMITATION ON NUCLEAR WEAPONS CAPABILITIES WITH BOTH RUSSIA AND CHINA WOULD MAKE THE WORLD A BETTER PLACE.

>> AMBASSADOR K BAILEY HUTCHISON, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.