May 21, 2026

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & CO."

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

EUROPE'S SPLIT WITH AMERICA IS LAID BARE AS ONE ALLY IS BREAKING RANKS MORE THAN MOST, SPAIN, CLASHING WITH WASHINGTON OVER IRAN, GAZA, ISRAEL, AND NATO ITSELF.

IS MADRID AN OUTLIER OR THE SHAPE OF EUROPE TO COME?

I ASKED SPAIN'S FOREIGN MINISTER.

>>> THEN HE'S THE KING OF CLAY WITH 14 FRENCH OPEN TITLES AMONG HIS 22 GRAND SLAMS, AND NOW A NEW NETFLIX SERIES.

RAFAEL NADAL SPEAKS TO ME ABOUT GLORY, SACRIFICE, AND THE PRICE OF GREATNESS.

>>> PLUS, THE MUSK/ALTMAN SHOWDOWN.

WHAT THE OPENAI VERDICT MEANS FOR THE FUTURE.

"NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER MIKE ISAAC JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN.

♪♪ >> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & CO."

IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B.POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTI-SEMITISM, THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND ROSE GANTZ COONEY FUND, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAH, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITY, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBURG, AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO OUR PBS STATIONS FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR IN LONDON.

NATO FOREIGN MINISTERS ARE GATHERING IN SWEDEN TODAY AS THE ALLIANCE FACES MOUNTING STRAINS.

PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS REPEATEDLY CRITICIZED NATO THREATENING ACTION OVER GREENLAND, AND NOW THE PENTAGON SAYS THOUSANDS OF U.S.

TROOPS WILL BE PULLED FROM EUROPE.

ONE COUNTRY HAS BEEN ESPECIALLY OUTSPOKEN, SPAIN, OPENLY CHALLENGING WASHINGTON OVER ITS WAR IN IRAN AND SHARPLY CRITICIZING ISRAEL'S PALESTINE POLICY.

THIS WEEK, SPAIN ALSO CONDEMNED ISRAEL FOR THE ON-CAMERA HUMILIATION BY THE FAR-RIGHT EXTREMIST MINISTER AND HIS TREATMENT OF DETAINED ACTIVISTS ABOARD AN INTERCEPTED AID FLOTILLA THAT INCLUDED DOZENS OF SPANIARDS.

AHEAD OF THAT KEY NATO MEETING THOUGH, I SPOKE TO SPAIN'S FOREIGN MINISTER ABOUT ALL OF THIS.

FOREIGN MINISTER, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> MY PLEASURE.

>> LET'S JUST GET TO THE HEART OF THIS ISSUE OF THE INTERCEPTED FLOTILLA, THE -- ALL THOSE WHO WERE ON IT HAVE BEEN DEPORTED BACK TO THEIR HOME COUNTRIES ACCORDING TO THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, BUT YOU ARE VERY ANGRY.

YOU CALLED THE MINISTER'S ACTIONS AS WE DESCRIBED, REALLY HUMILIATING, ALL THOSE.

MONSTROUS, UNDIGNIFIED, AND HUMILIATING.

DID YOU EVER GET AN APOLOGY FROM THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT?

>> NO, NOT DIRECTLY.

I ASKED FOR ONE BECAUSE I THINK THAT THE COUNTRY THAT SAYS THAT IT'S A DEMOCRACY DOESN'T BEHAVE IN THIS WAY.

YOU DON'T ASSAULT IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS AND YOU DON'T MAKE ILLEGAL DETENTIONS AND IN ADDITION, YOU DON'T INFLICT SUCH INHUMANE, HUMILIATING TREATMENT TO CITIZENS.

DEMOCRACIES, WE DON'T ACT LIKE THAT.

THAT'S WHY I ASKED FOR THOSE APOLOGIES.

I HAVEN'T GOT THEM.

I THOUGHT IN THE MINISTER OF FOREIGN AFFAIRS FOR ISRAEL IN THEIR SOCIAL NETWORKS TO REALLY TALK AGAINST THIS ACTION, BUT NOT, LIKE, AN INFORMAL APOLOGY.

TO ME AND TO MANY OTHER COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, THAT WE ARE ASKING FOR THE SAME THING, AND THAT'S WHY SPAIN WITH OTHER EUROPEAN COUNTRIES, WE ARE ASKING FOR A BAN OF THIS PARTICULAR MINISTER INTO THE EUROPEAN UNION, AS SPAIN HAS ENFORCED SINCE MANY MONTHS AGO.

>> THAT'S INTERESTING.

YOU SAW THAT PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU AND HIS FOREIGN MINISTER DID POST THAT THIS WAS NOT, YOU KNOW, ACTION BY ACCORDANCE AND NORMS WITH ISRAEL.

ARE YOU CONVINCED BY THEIR SORT OF WRAPPING HIM OVER THE KNUCKLES?

>> NO.

I THINK THAT IT'S BETTER TO SAY NOTHING, BUT IN ANY DEMOCRACY, A MINISTER COULD ACT AND BEHAVE IN THAT WAY.

THE NEXT MINUTE, HE WOULDN'T BE A MINISTER ANYMORE, AND THAT'S A COMMON RESPONSIBILITY OF THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT, AND THESE ACTIONS MUST STOP.

IT'S NOT THE FIRST TIME THAT WE'VE SEEN THE ASSAULT OR ASSAULTS IN INTERNATIONAL WATERS JURISDICTION ON ANY OF OUR CITIZENS, AND OF COURSE, I FIND THIS APPALLING, OUTRAGEOUS, AND I CANNOT ACCEPT AND I WILL NEVER ACCEPT THAT MY CITIZENS ARE TREATED IN THIS WAY BY ANYONE IN THE WORLD.

>> NOW YOU KNOW THAT YOU'VE BECOME SORT OF, YOU KNOW, A BULL'S-EYE TARGET FOR THE ISRAELI GOVERNMENT BECAUSE SPAIN DOES LEAD A VERY PROMINENT PRO-PALESTINIAN POLICY, RIGHTS FOR THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE.

YOU ALONG WITH MANY NOW IN THE U.N.

GENERAL ASSEMBLY DO SUPPORT A PALESTINIAN STATE, AS IS, YOU KNOW, IMPLICATED IN ALL THE INTERNATIONAL LAWS AROUND THAT, AND YOU DID LEAD AN UNSUCCESSFUL MOVE TO END THE EU ASSOCIATION AGREEMENT WITH ISRAEL, AND THEREFORE, MINISTER, BASICALLY IT ACCUSES YOU ALL IN SPAIN OF LEADING AND HOSTILE, ANTI-ISRAEL LINE.

THEY CALL IT, YOU KNOW, TRYING TO DIVERT FROM, QUOTE, YOUR SEVERE CORRUPTION SCANDALS THROUGH ANTI-ISRAEL, ANTI-SEMITIC ATTACKS.

HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THAT?

>> IT'S ABSURD, AND IT'S RIDICULOUS.

SPAIN AND ITS FOREIGN POLICIES HAVE EVOLVED PRO-PEACE.

PRO-PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE.

ANTI-WAR.

WE WILL NEVER ACCEPT THAT THE ONLY WAY THAT ISRAEL HAS TO RELATE WITH ITS NEIGHBOR IS THROUGH WAR AND THROUGH VIOLENCE.

THERE MUST BE A WAY OF PEACEFUL COEXISTENCE, AND THAT IS CALLED THE TWO-STATE SOLUTION.

OF COURSE, WE SUPPORT THE EXISTENCE OF THE STATE OF ISRAEL, ITS FULL SECURITY.

OF COURSE, ISRAEL HAS THAT RIGHT TO PEACE AND SECURITY.

WE HAVE CONDEMNED THE HORRIBLE TERRORIST ATTACK OF HAMAS ON OCTOBER THE 7th.

WE HAVE CONDEMNED AND VOTED FOR EVERY SANCTION IN HAMAS AND EU.

HAMAS HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH THE FUTURE OF PALESTINE, BUT EXACTLY THE SAME RIGHT THAT THE ISRAELI PEOPLE HAS FOR A PEACEFUL AND SECURE STATE, HAS THE PALESTINIAN PEOPLE AND ALL THE OTHER PEOPLE ON THE MIDDLE EAST.

WE HAVE THE FIRST GOVERNMENT THAT HAS ISSUE AND A STRATEGY AGAINST ANTI-SEMITISM HERE IN SPAIN.

WE TAKE IT VERY SERIOUSLY, BUT IF THEY TRY TO THREATEN US WITH THAT, NO, WE ARE NOT GOING TO LOWER OUR VOICE IN FAVOR OF PEACE AND THE RESPECT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW AND HUMAN RIGHTS.

>> OKAY.

FOREIGN MINISTER, TALKING ABOUT THREATS, YOU KNOW THE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES HAS THREATENED NATO.

HE'S ALREADY ANNOUNCED THE PENTAGON WILL, YOU KNOW, PULL BACK THOUSANDS OF TROOPS FROM GERMANY AND WHO KNOWS WHERE ELSE IN NATO?

YOU'RE AT A MEETING IN SWEDEN TO PREPARE FOR THE FUTURE NATO SUMMIT WITH WORLD LEADERS.

HE COMPLAINS A LOT ABOUT THE LEADS SPAIN TAKES, WHETHER IT'S ON NATO, DEFENSE SPENDING, CLIMATE POLICY, IMMIGRATION.

YOU'VE REALLY MADE IT YOUR BUSINESS TO CHALLENGE PRESIDENT TRUMP ON THESE ISSUES, AND HE RESPONDS BY TAKING THE KIND OF REVENGE I SAID REGARDING PULLING BACK TROOPS.

TELL ME WHETHER YOU THINK THIS IS A POLICY THAT'S WORKING FOR YOU.

HOW DOES IT HELP TO PULL BACK, YOU KNOW, AMERICAN TROOPS FROM EUROPE?

>> WE REALLY BELIEVE IN THE TRANSATLANTIC RELATION.

TRADE, OF COURSE, ITS SECURITY, WE BELIEVE IN NATO.

WE ARE A VERY COMMITTED ALLY.

WE HAVE A HISTORICAL DEPLOYMENT OF ALMOST 4,000 TROOPS.

A LOT OF THEM -- MOST OF THEM, IT IS IN EUROPE.

THE SECURITY OF THE SKIES OF THE BALTICS, IN CZECHOSLOVAKIA, AND ROMANIA, AND WE HAVE THE LARGEST AND FASTEST INCREASE IN OUR EXPENDITURE.

IT'S 2.1 RIGHT NOW, AND MORE THAN SOME OF THE COUNTRIES IN NATO, AND WE HAVE DELIVERED ALL OF THE CAPACITIES THAT HAVE BEEN REQUESTED.

WE WANT THAT TRANSATLANTIC RELATION TO BE AS STRONG AS POSSIBLE WITHIN THE FRAMEWORK OF OUR VALUES AND THE RESPECT OF INTERNATIONAL LAW, BUT WE ARE COMMITTED THAT NOTHING OF WHAT WE -- OR WHERE WE SAY GOES AGAINST ANY ALLY, OTHER COUNTRY.

>> YEAH.

EXCEPT THAT YOU ARE CALLING FOR A EUROPEAN ARMY.

YOU SAY WE CAN'T LIVE OUR LIVES WAKING UP EVERY DAY WONDERING WHAT THE U.S.

PRESIDENT IS GOING TO SAY ABOUT OUR DEFENSE, AND YOU'RE NOT PAYING THE 5% THAT THE PRESIDENT IS DEMANDING.

>> THERE ARE TWO THINGS.

ONE, WE SAID SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING THAT THE DEBATE SHOULD BE A CAPACITY, NOT A PERCENTAGE.

WE HAVE 2.1% WHICH IS MORE THAN SOME OF THE MEMBERS OF NATO RIGHT NOW.

THERE IS NO WAY THAT IS PAYING 5% AT THIS VERY MOMENT AND OUR POSITION WAS VERY CLEAR SINCE THE VERY BEGINNING, BUT WE HAVE DELIVERED IN ALL THE CAPACITIES.

WE GOT THE DEFENSE EXPENDITURE IN OUR COUNTRY AT 0.9% IN OUR GOVERNMENT.

IT'S 2.1% RIGHT NOW.

NOW WE ARE DELIVERING ALL THE CAPACITIES, AND WHEN IT COMES TO THE EUROPEAN ARMY, TO HAVE A STRONG PILLAR OF EUROPEAN SECURITY REINFORCES NATO, AND INVITES US EUROPEANS TO TAKE MORE OF A PART IN OUR SECURITY SO I FIND THIS IS COMPLEMENTARY.

THE EUROPEAN ARMY AND NATO ARE NOT TOO OPPOSITE THINGS.

ON THE CONTRARY, THEY ARE COMPLEMENTARY.

>> OKAY.

THERE IS A GREAT BIG WAR GOING ON.

I MEAN, IT'S IN SOME KIND OF SORT OF SUSPENDED CEASEFIRE RIGHT NOW, BUT BETWEEN THE UNITED STATES, ISRAEL, AND IRAN, WE KEEP HEARING SOME DIFFERENT THINGS FROM THE UNITED STATES AND ISRAEL, OFTEN ON THE SAME DAY.

WHERE DO YOU THINK IT'S HEADED, PARTICULARLY NOW THAT WE HEAR U.S.

INTELLIGENCE SAYING THAT IRAN IS REBUILDING THEIR DEFENSES, COULD REBUILD WITHIN SIX MONTHS, AND THAT PRESIDENT TRUMP IS HAVING, QUOTE, STRONG TALKS OR STRONG DISAGREEMENTS WITH -- WITH PRIME MINISTER NETANYAHU WHO WANTS CONTINUED WAR WHILE TRUMP WANTS TO TRY THE NEGOTIATED EXIT.

WHERE DO YOU THINK THIS IS HEADING?

>> I BACK THE NEGOTIATION, AND I BACK THE MEDIATION OF PAKISTAN AND OTHER COUNTRIES.

I THINK THAT THERE IS REALLY NO OTHER MILITARY SOLUTION, AND AT THE CONTRARY, GOING BACK TO THE NEGOTIATING TABLE CAN REALLY TACKLE ALL THE ISSUES.

OF COURSE, IRAN CANNOT HAVE THE NUCLEAR BOMB.

IRAN MUST STOP THE ATTACKS ON THE OTHER COUNTRIES.

THE ISOLATION MUST STOP THOSE ATTACKS AS WELL.

WE MUST BE PART OF THE GLOBAL PART OF THIS DEAL, AND ROUTES MUST BE REOPENED AGAIN WITH SECURE PASSAGE AND NO CHARGE AT ALL FOR THAT PASSAGE.

I THINK IT'S POSSIBLE TO GET AN AGREEMENT.

NEGOTIATIONS WERE GOING WELL RIGHT BEFORE THE WAR.

SO I THINK THAT'S THE RIGHT PATH, TO MAKE A SUSTAINABLE AND STABLE PEACE INSTEAD OF KEEPING THIS ESTABLISHED COOL THAT CAN ESCALATE WITH CONSEQUENCES.

>> WHAT DO YOU THINK OF THE CONSEQUENCES OF THE U.S.

INDICTMENT OF RAUL CASTRO, FORMER PRESIDENT AND FORMER DEFENSE MINISTER OF CUBA, SENDING IN A -- AN AIRCRAFT CARRIER, AND BASICALLY INCREASING THE PRESSURE?

YOU ARE GOING TO BE MEETING MARCO RUBIO.

I DON'T KNOW WHETHER YOU'RE GOING TO ASK HIM ABOUT THIS, BUT WHAT IS THE PLAN, AND DO YOU SUPPORT THE INDICTMENT?

BECAUSE IT DOES REVOLVE AROUND AN ISSUE WHERE THE CUBANS DID SHOOT DOWN CIVILIAN LITTLE PLANES, BASICALLY IN COLD BLOOD WITH MIGs ALL THOSE DECADES AGO.

>> WE HAVE MANY WORRIES OF THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION.

CUBAN PEOPLE ARE BROTHERS AND SISTERS OF SPAIN, AS ALL THE PEOPLE IN LATIN AMERICA.

WE SEE THE HUMANITARIAN SITUATION.

WE TRIED TO HELP THEM WITH THAT, WITH FOOD, WITH MEDICAL STAFF, WITH SOLAR PANELS, AND WHAT I WANT FROM THE CUBAN PEOPLE IS EXACTLY THE SAME THAT I WANT FOR THE SPANISH PEOPLE, FREEDOM, DEMOCRACY, SOCIAL JUSTICE, EQUALITY, BUT EVERYTHING MUST BE DONE IN ACCORDANCE WITH INTERNATIONAL LAW AND ALSO GUARANTEEING THE SOVEREIGNTY AND INTEGRITY OF CUBA.

SO THAT'S WHERE SPAIN IS RIGHT NOW.

>> BUT JUST BRIEFLY, DO YOU THINK THEY ARE HEADED TOWARDS EXTRACTING CASTRO?

>> I CANNOT ANSWER THAT QUESTION.

THAT'S A QUESTION FOR THE GOVERNMENT OF THE UNITED STATES TO ANSWER.

>> NOW IT IS NOT THE BEST MOMENT FOR YOUR GOVERNMENT AND YOUR COUNTRY.

CERTAINLY YOUR GOVERNMENT.

YOUR PARTY, YOU KNOW, THE PRIME MINISTER'S PARTY LOST VERY HEAVILY IN THE LOCAL ELECTIONS LAST WEEKEND, AND THERE'S A HUGE CORRUPTION SCANDAL GOING ON, ALLEGATIONS -- LET ME JUST SAY.

THE PRIME MINISTER'S WIFE WAS CHARGED WITH CORRUPTION.

FORMER TRANSPORT MINISTER, ANOTHER SENIOR PARTY OFFICIAL ON TRIAL OVER KICKBACK ALLEGATIONS, AND JUST THIS WEEK, A FORMER SOCIALIST PRIME MINISTER WAS CHARGED WITH MONEY LAUNDERING, INFLUENCE PEDDLING, AND OTHER CRIMINAL OFFENSES.

GIVEN THE EXTENT OF ALL OF THIS, DO YOU THINK IT'S TIME FOR THE PRIME MINISTER TO CALL NEW ELECTIONS AND TRY TO CLEAN UP THIS SLATE THAT WE'RE SEEING RIGHT NOW?

>> HE HAS BEEN VERY CLEAR JUST TODAY SAYING THAT THE PARLIAMENTARY FUTURE WILL GO TO THE END.

YOU SEE THE RESULTS IN OUR ECONOMY AND YOU SEE THE POLICY, HOW IT'S REALLY APPLAUDED BY MANY COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD.

WHEN YOU SEE THE RATE OF EMPLOYMENT, ANOTHER SPAIN HAD SUCH A HIGH LEVEL WITH 22 MILLION PEOPLE IN OUR SOCIAL SECURITY.

THERE IS NO REASON TO STOP, AND THE PRESIDENT HAS DECIDED TO GO UNTIL THE END OF THE PARLIAMENTARY PERIOD AND CALL THE ELECTIONS WHEN THE TIME WILL BE LEGALLY THERE.

>> AND YOU'RE SURE THAT THIS GOVERNMENT STILL HAS LEGITIMACY IN THE EYES OF THE PEOPLE?

>> CERTAINLY.

THIS IS SOMETHING THAT WE SEE IN THE PARLIAMENT EVERY DAY.

THIS IS A PARLIAMENTARY REGIME, AND WE CAN SEE IT WEEK PER WEEK.

>> ALL RIGHT.

FOREIGN MINISTER ALBARES, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU.

MY PLEASURE.

>>> NOW MY NEXT GUEST NEEDS NO INTRODUCTION, AND WITH THE FRENCH OPEN AT ROLAND GARROS COMING UP, THE PRESENCE OF ITS GREATEST CHAMPION WILL BE SORELY MISSED.

WHO ELSE BUT RAFAEL NADAL?

ONE OF THE GREATEST PLAYERS TO EVERY PICK UP A TENNIS RACKET.

HE RETIRED ALMOST TWO YEARS AGO, BUT NOW HE'S UNVEILING THE STRUGGLES BEHIND HIS LEGENDARY GRIT FROM PHYSICAL INJURIES TO MENTAL CHALLENGES.

THE NEW NETFLIX DOCUMENTARY "RAFA" TAKES US BEHIND HIS GRAND SLAMS AND THE OPEN TITLES.

HERE'S SOME OF THE TRAILER.

[ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] [ SPEAKING IN A GLOBAL LANGUAGE ] >> WITH RAFA, YOU KNOW THAT EVERY MATCH IS LIVE OR DIE.

>> IT JUST MADE YOU FEEL THAT YOU NEED TO PLAY SUPERHUMAN TO BEAT HIM.

>> IT IS A SEARINGLY HONEST LOOK.

THE DOCUMENTARY PREMIERED IN SPAIN THIS WEEK AND I SPOKE TO THE TENNIS GREAT IN MADRID.

RAFAEL NADAL, WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM.

>> THANK YOU.

>> IT'S BEEN ABOUT TWO YEARS THAT YOU HAVEN'T BEEN COMPETING, BUT HOW IS RETIREMENT TREATING YOU?

>> VERY GOOD.

>> YOU LIKE IT?

>> YEAH.

I NEVER WAS AFRAID OF THAT, AND -- >> REALLY?

>> YEAH.

HONESTLY.

YEAH.

I WAS -- >> OKAY.

WE'LL GET TO THAT IN A MOMENT AS WELL BECAUSE THROUGHOUT THE DOCUMENTARY, YOU'RE STRUGGLING WITH WHEN TO AND WHETHER TO.

>> YEAH, BUT IN -- I MEAN, IN A WAY, BECAUSE AFTER MY HIP SURGERY, I WANTED TO GIVE MYSELF THE PROPER TIME TO KNOW IF THE THINGS WILL BE LIKE BEFORE OR NOT IN TERMS OF FEELING FREE TO MOVE.

>> ALL THE WAY TO THE END OF THE DOCUMENTARY, I WAS REALLY TAKEN BY WHAT YOU SAID.

YOU SAID YOU STOPPED BEING WHAT YOU HAVE BEEN PRACTICALLY ALL YOUR LIFE.

YOU GO BACK TO BEING JUST THE PERSON.

THIS IS, YOU KNOW, 22-TIME GRAND SLAM WINNER, 14-TIME ROLAND GARROS CHAMPION.

YOU GO BACK TO BEING JUST THE PERSON.

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?

>> BECAUSE -- I THINK IN SOME WAYS, WHEN YOU ARE IN FRONT OF CAMERAS ALMOST EVERY WEEK IN TOURNAMENTS OR IN SOME WAY, I WAS, LIKE, ENOUGH, THAT I ALWAYS CAME BACK HOME.

WHEN I CAME BACK HOME TO MY REGIONS, I ALWAYS HAD BEEN TREATED THE SAME WAY.

SO IN SOME WAY, I NEVER LOST THAT REAL LIFE THAT I NAMED, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU ARE A SUCCESSFUL ATHLETE.

YOU ARE FAMOUS, YOU KNOW, YOU RECEIVE A LOT OF ATTENTION FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE.

SO IN SOME WAYS, YOU ARE LIVING IN -- NOT IN A FAKE WORLD, BUT AS A PART OF YOUR WORLD.

I ALWAYS CONSIDERED THAT, LIKE, A PART OF MY LIFE THAT IS GOING TO END.

>> YOU DON'T FEEL A HOLE INSIDE?

>> NO.

I MEAN, I ENJOY IT OF COURSE BECAUSE OF THAT.

I WAS ABLE TO ENJOY SO MANY UNIQUE EXPERIENCES AND PRIVILEGES WITHOUT A DOUBT, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, I -- I ALWAYS ENJOYED BEING A LITTLE BIT MORE JUST MYSELF.

MY FAMILY, YOU KNOW, AND BEING FROM A SMALL VILLAGE, IT'S A DIFFERENT STYLE OF LIFE.

>> WELL, IT COMES ACROSS OBVIOUSLY IN THIS FOUR-PART NETFLIX SERIES.

THIS IS OBVIOUSLY YOUR JOURNEY FROM BEING A KID PLAYER TO WHERE YOU ENDED UP.

WE'LL TALK ABOUT WHETHER YOU'RE THE GREATEST, THE G.O.A.T.

ARE YOU THE G.O.A.T.?

>> NO.

>> ARE YOU SURE?

NO.

>> YEAH, BUT IN TERMS OF -- IT WAS VERY CLEAR IN THE DOCUMENTARY THAT YOU WERE HOLDING ONTO YOUR ROLAND GARROS TITLES.

YOU DON'T THINK ANYBODY WILL BEAT THAT.

>> I MEAN, IF I DID, WHY NOT?

BUT WHY NOT ANOTHER ONE CAN COME AND BEAT THAT?

BUT THAT SAID, IT'S OBVIOUS THAT IT'S SOMETHING DIFFICULT TO REPEAT BECAUSE I MEAN, YOU HAVE TO PUT A LOT OF THINGS TOGETHER, AND IN SOME WAY, YOU NEED THAT TOO, YOU KNOW?

>> IN THIS DOCUMENTARY, I THOUGHT ABOUT PAIN AND SUFFERING.

I REALLY FELT THE PAIN HALFWAY THROUGH.

IT WAS INCREDIBLE.

ALSO, YOU DID THE DOCUMENTARY IN 2024, A LOT OF IT, AND THAT WAS NOT A GREAT YEAR FOR YOU.

IT WAS A YEAR WHERE YOU WERE VERY, VERY INJURED, THAT YOU HAD ALL THESE LOSSES, AND YOU ENDED UP RETIRING, HAVING LOST IN SWEDEN.

YOU DECIDED TO RETIRE.

WHY DID YOU DECIDE TO REVEAL THIS PART TO THE WORLD?

IT'S THE UNDERLYING PAIN AND SUFFERING AS IF THAT WAS THE POINT.

>> WELL, I THINK IT'S ABOUT EVERYTHING, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE I THINK IN THE DOCUMENTARY, YOU WANT TO SEE ALL THE SUCCESS, OF COURSE, ALL THE GREAT MOMENTS, BUT ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU'RE ALWAYS GOING TO SEE THE SUFFERING, ALL THE THINGS THAT YOU ARE GOING TO THROUGH TO TRY TO BE SUCCESSFUL, AND IT'S TRUE THAT WHEN -- WHEN I STARTED FILMING THE DOCUMENTARY, IT WAS IN 2024 AND 2023, SO IT WAS AFTER MY HIP SURGERY.

SO IT WAS LATE IN THINK CAREER, VERY LATE, AND OF COURSE, I CAME BACK FROM THE SITUATION THAT WAS VERY, VERY DIFFICULT, NO?

BUT I TRIED, AND WHAT I WANTED TO SHOW IN THE DOCUMENTARY WAS MY REAL LIFE AND THE REAL LIFE IS NOT ONLY ABOUT PLAYING SUNDAYS, HOLDING TROPHIES ON YOUR HANDS, AND GOOD THINGS.

IT'S -- YOU KNOW, THERE'S ANOTHER PART OF THE REAL LIFE IN THE PROFESSIONAL ATHLETE WORLD AND THAT'S MY STORY.

>> AND IT REALLY IS, AND IT'S SHOWN IN EXCRUCIATING DETAIL.

I MEAN, IN 2005 WHEN YOU WERE PLAYING THE MATCH AND YOU FELT A CRUNCH IN YOUR FOOT.

>> YEAH.

>> AND IT TURNED OUT YOU HAD BROKEN SOMETHING, AND IT TURNED OUT THAT YOU HAD THIS VERY RARE -- YOU SAID I'M DEVASTATED, I'M DESTROYED.

THIS IS IN A CAR SCENE.

YOU THEN HAD TO WEAR AN INSOLE THAT I DON'T KNOW WHETHER PEOPLE KNEW ABOUT THAT, BUT YOU TRIED TO DO EVERYTHING YOU COULD TO MAKE IT WORK.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

WHAT WAS IT LIKE HAVING TO PLAY WITH THAT PAIN?

DID YOU THINK YOU WOULD BE ABLE TO HAVE A LONG CAREER AFTER THAT?

THAT WAS 2005.

>> PROBABLY THAT WAS THE TOUGHEST PART IN MY TENNIS CAREER BECAUSE THAT WAS JUST THE BEGINNING.

2005 WAS THE FIRST YEAR THAT I WON MY FIRST GRAND SLAM.

I FINISHED MY YEAR LIKE AT WORLD NUMBER TWO.

SO THAT WAS IN ONE OF THE LAST TOURNAMENTS OF THE YEAR.

SO AFTER THAT, YOU KNOW, IT WAS JUST THE BEGINNING OF -- OF MY SUCCESS.

SO IN SOME WAY, WHEN YOU RECEIVE ALL THE -- ALL THIS NEWS THAT MAY BE YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO -- TO KEEP DOING THE SAME THINGS AS YOU ARE USED TO DOING, WOW.

IN SOME WAY, YOU ARE PROJECTING YOUR FUTURE, BEING A PROFESSIONAL TENNIS PLAYER, THINKING THAT YOU'RE GOING TO HAVE A LIST.

I MEAN, SEVEN, EIGHT, TEN YEARS OF BEING ON THE PROFESSIONAL TOUR.

THAT'S WHY YOU HAVE BEEN PRACTIING ALMOST ALL YOUR LIFE, AND IN ONE SECOND, IT LOOKS LIKE, OKAY.

MAYBE NOW YOU WILL NOT BE ABLE TO -- TO KEEP DOING WHAT YOU ARE DOING.

SO -- >> IS IT SCARY?

>> YES, BECAUSE AT 19 YEARS OLD, OF COURSE, YOU FEEL EVERYTHING IN A DIFFERENT WAY.

YOU ARE VERY YOUNG, YOU KNOW, IT'S DIFFICULT TO ASSIMILATE ALL THIS -- ALL THESE ISSUES, BUT I WAS VERY LUCKY TO HAVE VERY GOOD PEOPLE NEXT TO ME, AND OF COURSE, I ALWAYS HOLD THE HOPE THAT THINGS ARE GOING TO MOVE FORWARD AND I WILL BE ABLE TO KEEP PLAYING, BUT THE NEWS FOR A COUPLE OF MONTHS HAVEN'T BEEN POSITIVE, AND AT THE END, IT'S TRUE THAT WE FOUND A VERY DRASTIC SOLUTION, BUT IT WORKED, AND -- >> WHICH WAS?

>> IT WAS THE VERY AGGRESSIVE INSOLE.

AFTER FOUR MONTHS LOOKING FOR SOLUTIONS, TRYING DIFFERENT THINGS, IT WAS AN INSOLE THAT MOVED MY FOOT 7 MILLIMETERS LIKE THIS.

SO LITERALLY MY FOOT WAS OUT OF MY SHOE, AND THAT'S WHY I WAS LUCKY ENOUGH THAT THEY -- THAT MOMENT THAT I TALKED TO NIKE, I WENT TO PORTLAND STRAIGHT AWAY.

I SAID, OKAY.

LIKE THIS.

IT LOOKS LIKE I'M GOING TO HAVE THE CHANCE TO KEEP PLAYING TENNIS, AND I NEED TO FIX THAT, AND I WAS, LIKE, THEY MAKE IT VERY QUICK, AND A COMPLETELY NEW SHOE SPECIAL FOR MY FOOT, YOU KNOW, HIGHER, YOU KNOW, THEY BASICALLY CONSTRUCT A SHOE JUST FOR MY FOOT.

>> YOU DO EXPRESS THROUGHOUT THE -- THROUGHOUT THE DOCUMENTARY ANXIETY AND STRESS ABOUT ALL OF THIS, WHICH PRESUMABLY UNDERSTANDABLE.

YOUR WIFE TALKS ABOUT IT, YOU KNOW, YOU WENT TO SEE A PSYCHIATRIST AT SOME POINT OR A THERAPIST TO TRY TO GET THROUGH IT.

THIS IS GOING TO RESONATE WITH PEOPLE ALL OVER THE WORLD, PARTICULARLY MEN, YOUNG MEN.

TELL ME ABOUT THE LEVEL OF ANXIETY AND STRESS HAVING TO GO OUT FOR INSTANCE, AT ONE POINT WITH A BOTTLE OF WATER THE WHOLE TIME.

YOU KNOW, AND HOW YOU WORKED THROUGH THAT.

>> YES.

I MEAN, PROBABLY BECAUSE I WENT THROUGH A LOT OF INJURIES, A LOT OF PRESSURE, AND FROM A MOMENT THAT -- I MEAN, IN SOME WAY, YOU ARE NOT ABLE TO HANDLE ALL OF THIS, AND EVEN IF -- IN MY MIND, I WAS ABLE TO HANDLE ALL OF THIS, THERE'S A POINT THAT YOUR MIND FAILS, AND THAT'S WHAT HAPPENED.

SO WHEN -- OKAY.

I ALWAYS THOUGHT THAT I NEED TO FIX THINGS FOR MYSELF IN TERMS OF MENTAL -- MENTAL STRENGTH, NO, BUT WHEN I WAS -- MY FEELING WAS, OKAY.

I CANNOT GO OUT ON THE STREET WITHOUT A BOTTLE OF WATER ON MY HAND.

SO YEAH.

THAT'S A BIG -- THAT'S A BIG THING.

SO I NEED TO FIND HELP.

>> YEAH.

>> THAT'S WHAT I -- I DID.

I WENT TO A PSYCHOLOGIST FIRST.

I SAID, OKAY.

I TRIED, BUT I THINK THAT'S NOT WORKING BECAUSE ALL THE THINGS THAT I AM LISTENING HERE I KNEW ALREADY BECAUSE I WAS VERY IRRATIONAL, I WOULD SAY, BUT THEN I WENT TO THE -- >> YES, PSYCHIATRIST.

>> YES, AND AFTER THAT, I STARTED WITH SOME -- YEAH.

SOME MEDICATION FOR A WHILE, AND I WAS ABLE TO -- TO START FEELING IMPROVEMENTS AFTER A COUPLE OF MONTHS, AND THEN OF COURSE, THAT WAS FOR AROUND A YEAR, AND THEN OF COURSE, I RECOVERED AND I -- NEVER AGAIN.

>> AND THEN TOWARDS THE END, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU WERE IN 2022, I MEAN, YOU WON YOUR 14th ROLAND GARROS.

I WAS THERE.

I INTERVIEWED YOU AFTERWARDS.

>> YES, IT'S TRUE.

>> I SAW YOU IN -- LIMPING INTO THE INTERVIEW ROOM.

>> YEAH.

>> BECAUSE YOU HAD HAD TO HAVE INJECTIONS IN YOUR FOOT, AND JOHN McENROE IN THE SERIES SAYS, "OH MY GOD.

HE CAN DO IT WITHOUT FEELING HIS FEET?

WHAT'S HE GOING TO DO NEXT, BLINDFOLD HIMSELF?"

IT WAS EXTRAORDINARY WITH A HANDICAP.

HOW DID YOUR TALENT, YOUR PRACTICE, YOUR MUSCLE MEMORY, ALLOW YOU TO BE ABLE TO STAY UPRIGHT AND IN DIRECTION EVEN WHEN YOU COULDN'T FEEL YOUR FEET?

>> BECAUSE IN SOME WAYS, I THINK I WAS PREPARED FOR ALL THESE THINGS BECAUSE I WENT THROUGH A LOT IN ALL MY TENNIS CAREER.

I PLAYED WITH -- I PLAYED ALL MY CAREER WITH -- WITH BASICALLY THE BONE OF MY LEFT FOOT BREAKED.

I PLAY WITH A LOT OF FISSURES OF -- ON MY KNEES.

SO I HAD PLENTY OF THINGS.

SO I WAS USED TO THIS SUFFERING.

I WAS USED TO FINDING WAYS -- A WAY TO KEEPING COMPETITIVE AND FINDING A SOLUTION, AND THROUGH THAT, MY TENNIS, MY COMPETITIVENESS IN A SITUATION, NO, AND I THINK I WAS -- I WAS EDUCATED A LITTLE BIT LIKE THAT SINCE I WAS A KID.

>> TALKING ABOUT EDUCATION, YOUR MAIN COACH WAS YOUR UNCLE TONY.

VERY FAMOUS IN TENNIS HISTORY AND EVERYBODY ASSOCIATES YOU WITH UNCLE TONY.

IT SEEMED, THOUGH, HE WAS VERY CLEAR THAT YOU ACTUALLY HAD TO SUFFER TO PLAY.

HE, YOU KNOW, WOULD NOT LET YOU DRINK WATER FOR AN HOUR DURING TRAINING OR SOMETHING WHEN YOU WERE YOUNGER, TRIED TO GET YOU USED TO IT.

IN RETROSPECT, WAS THAT THE WAY TO GET THE BEST OUT OF YOU?

TO PUSH YOU TO THE BRINK?

>> FOR ME, IT WORKED REALLY WELL.

THAT'S ALL WHAT I CAN SAY, NO?

I MEAN, EVERY KID IS DIFFERENT.

EVERY HUMAN BEING HAVE A DIFFERENT TALENT, AND I -- I HAD THE TALENT TO HOLD ALL THIS PRESSURE, ALL THIS PRESSURE.

SO I THINK IF MY UNCLE WILL SEE MYSELF NOT REALLY TO HOLD ALL THIS PRESSURE, PROBABLY HE WILL NOT DO IT.

THAT'S MY POINT OF VIEW, YOU KNOW, HE DID IT BECAUSE HE WANTED THE BEST FOR ME ALL THE TIME, AND OF COURSE, WHEN YOU GO TO THE LIMIT, SOMETIMES YOU CROSS THE LINE.

I WAS NOT ALWAYS PERFECT.

I WAS -- I WAS NOT ALWAYS PERFECT.

HE WAS NOT ALWAYS PERFECT, OF COURSE, BUT HE ALWAYS TRIED TO DO THE THINGS IN THE BEST INTEREST OF MYSELF.

>> YOUR RITUALS -- I ONCE ASKED YOU ABOUT IT.

A LOT OF PEOPLE SAY IT'S OCD, WHATEVER.

I ASKED YOU ABOUT YOUR RITUALS WHEN YOU WON IN AUSTRALIA.

>> YEAH.

>> A FEW YEARS AGO, AND YOU SAID, "DO YOU THINK I DO THIS KIND OF STUFF OFF THE COURT?

NO, IT'S FOR ME TO FEEL IN CONTROL AND SAFE ON THE COURT."

>> MM-HMM.

>> TELL ME A BIT MORE ABOUT THAT BECAUSE YOU REALLY DO TALK ABOUT IT A LOT IN THE DOCUMENTARY.

YOU EXPLAIN IT.

>> YEAH, BECAUSE I THINK IT WAS -- I MEAN, PEOPLE APPROACHED THAT LITTLE BIT LIKE SUPERSTITION, OR THAT I -- I NEED TO DO THAT.

I MEAN, PROBABLY PEOPLE WHEN THEY WATCHED ME DO ALL OF THIS ON THE COURT, THEY THINK THAT I AM DOING ALL THESE THINGS IN MY REAL LIFE TOO, AND IT'S COMPLETELY THE OPPOSITE, YOU KNOW?

I WAS VERY ORGANIZED ON A TENNIS COURT BECAUSE PROBABLY ALL THESE ISSUES HELPED ME TO STAY FOCUSED AND TO DON'T THINK MUCH ON OTHER STUFF, NOT JUST STAY A LITTLE BIT IN MY BUBBLE, NO?

TO BE HONEST, OUTSIDE OF THE TENNIS COURT, I MEAN, YOU CAN TALK WITH MY PEOPLE.

I AM NOT THAT ORGANIZED.

I DON'T HAVE ALL THESE RITUALS, BUT THAT REALLY HELPED ME.

>> IT DID?

>> TO STAY FOCUSED ON WHAT I NEEDED TO.

>> WELL, IT WORKED.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW, OBVIOUSLY THE RECORD -- THE RECORD STANDS.

CAN I ASK YOU ABOUT -- IT WORKED FOR ME WHEN I WAS ASKING YOU ABOUT THE REALLY INTENSE TRAINING, MENTALLY AND PHYSICALLY YOU UNDERWENT.

THE YOUNG PEOPLE COMING UP NOW.

YOU CAN HEAR MANY OF THEM, WOMEN AND MALE PLAYERS SAYING, "IT'S REALLY INTENSE.

THERE'S 11 MONTHS OF THE YEAR OF HARD WORK AND WE'RE CONSTANTLY PUSHING OURSELVES."

SOME ARE GETTING INJURED.

CARLOS ALCARAZ IS NOT PLAYING.

HE'S EVEN PULLED OUT OUT WIMBLEDON.

HE HAD CAUSED SOME CONTROVERSY OR DEBATE IN THE TENNIS WORLD WHEN HE GAVE AN INTERVIEW THAT SAID, YEAH.

I ACTUALLY LIKE TO GO TO DANCE.

I WANT TO TAKE TIME OFF, YOU KNOW, FROM THE GRUELING SCHEDULE OF THE OFF, YOU KNOW, OFF SEASON.

DO YOU THINK THAT'S GOOD?

>> EVERYONE HAS A DIFFERENT PERSONALITY, YOU KNOW, I DID TOO, YOU KNOW, I WAS NOT A GUY THAT -- MY LIFE WAS NOT ONLY TENNIS, TENNIS, AND TENNIS.

>> DID YOU DANCE?

>> I DID.

I WENT EVERY SINGLE YEAR WITH MY FRIENDS.

>> DID YOU?

>> YEAH, BUT -- I MEAN, EVERYONE NEEDS TO FIND THEIR OWN ASPECTS, AND I THINK, YOU KNOW, SOME PEOPLE NEED SOME MORE AND SOME PEOPLE, IT'S LESS, BUT MY LIFE WAS MUCH MORE THAN TENNIS, BUT I DIDN'T WANT TO PROJECT THAT TO THE WORLD BECAUSE I DIDN'T FOUND INTERESTING FOR THE WORLD THAT I WAS GOING TO DO THIS OR THE OTHER THING, NO?

HE DECIDED TO MAKE THAT PUBLIC.

I RESPECT THAT, AND IT SEEMS LIKE IT'S WORKING VERY WELL FOR HIM TOO, NO?

>> HE DOES.

HE'S DOING UNBELIEVABLY, BUT OF COURSE, THIS IS NOT A GREAT YEAR FOR HIM HEALTHWISE.

HE'S INJURED -- >> I MEAN.

>> WHAT ADVICE?

YOU TELL ME.

>> YOU WILL HAVE INJURIES.

THE PROFESSIONAL ATHLETES ALWAYS WILL HAVE ISSUES, YOU KNOW?

SOME PLAYERS HAVE MORE LIKE ME, AND SOME PLAYERS HAVE LESS LIKE NOVAK FOR EXAMPLE, OR OTHER -- OTHER -- >> IS HE SUPERHUMAN PHYSICALLY?

>> I MEAN, HE HAD AN AMAZING DEDICATION TO HIS -- TO THE JOB, AND PROBABLY HE HAD A BODY TO AVOID CERTAIN INJURIES AND THAT'S WHY HE HAD PROBABLY THE BEST NUMBERS IN THE HISTORY OF OUR SPORT AND HE'S ABLE TO KEEP PLAYING TENNIS AT 39 YEARS OLD, NO?

SO I MEAN, THAT'S PART OF OUR BUSINESS, NO?

AND THE THING IS OF COURSE, THE TOURNEYS HAVE A LONG CALENDAR.

SAME THING.

NOTHING NEW.

WE HAVE THE SAME CALENDAR ON THE YEAR, AND SOMETHING THAT THE CONVERSATION ALWAYS COMES BACK, BUT WE ARE REALLY FIGHTING TO CHANGE A LITTLE BIT, THAT THING, NO?

FOR ME, THE PROBLEM IS NOT THAT SUPER LONG CALENDAR OF 11 MONTHS.

FOR ME, THE PROBLEM IS WE HAD IMPORTANT TOURNAMENTS DURING ALL THOSE 11 MONTHS.

SO FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, THE TENNIS WORLD WILL BE A LITTLE BIT BETTER IF WE HAVE DURING NINE MONTHS, IMPORTANT TOURNAMENTS AND THEN THE OTHER TWO MONTHS, GOOD TOURNAMENTS, BUT -- >> YOU COULD -- >> YOU COULD PLAY OR DON'T PLAY.

IT'S YOUR DECISION.

SO THAT WILL BE FROM MY POINT OF VIEW, THE IDEAL WORLD BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE DIFFERENT POINT OF VIEW.

IF YOU HAVE 11 MONTHS OF TOURNAMENTS, OKAY.

OF COURSE, YOU CREATE MORE JOBS BECAUSE YOU HAVE MULTIPLE PEOPLE LIVING FROM OUR SPORT.

IF YOU ONLY HAVE NINE MONTHS, YOU HAVE LESS JOBS IN OUR SPORT.

WE MAKE OUR SPORT BIGGER, AND WE -- ONE OF THE MISSIONS THAT WE HAD WHEN WE WERE PLAYERS, IS TRY TO -- TO LET MORE PEOPLE LIVING FROM OUR SPORT, NOT ONLY THE TOP PLAYERS, YOU KNOW, WINNING A LOT OF MONEY, YOU KNOW?

TRYING TO MAYBE MAKE THE POSITION A BIT BETTER AND BE MORE FAIR, AND THAT'S WHY FOR ME, IT'S -- FOR ME, IT WILL BE 11 MONTHS TO HAVE TOURNAMENTS.

THE ONLY PROBLEM IS WHEN YOU HAVE TOO MANY IMPORTANT TOURNAMENTS DOING ALL THE TIME SO YOU DON'T ALLOW PLAYERS -- >> TO REST.

>> THEY NEED REST FOR TWO MONTHS.

>> GOT IT.

WE'RE IN SPAIN.

YOU'RE SPANISH.

DID YOU FEEL THE WEIGHT AND THE BURDEN OF YOUR NATION'S HOPES AND DREAMS ON YOU, OR DID IT POWER YOU IN A DIFFERENT WAY?

>> FOR ME, I ALWAYS TAKE IT BACK AS A MOTIVATION, AND I ALWAYS FELT VERY WELL SUPPORTED AND LOVED AND RESPECTED, ESPECIALLY OF COURSE, HERE IN SPAIN, BUT AROUND THE WORLD.

SO FOR ME, IT WAS NOT AN EXTRA WEIGHT ON MY SHOULDERS, NO.

FOR ME, I ENJOYED IT, ALL THAT SUPPORT, ALL THAT LOVE, AND I FEEL A VERY PRIVILEGED PERSON TO BE ABLE TO LIFT ALL OF THAT.

>> AND FINALLY, YOUR WIFE WAS INTERVIEWED IN THIS.

WE HAVEN'T REALLY SEEN HER BEING INTERVIEWED.

YOUR FATHER ALSO FOR THE FIRST TIME.

WE'VE NEVER SEEN HIM BEING INTERVIEWED.

I SEE A BIG SMILE ON YOUR FACE.

IS FAMILY LIFE PHENOMENAL?

IS IT GREAT?

HOW DO YOU FEEL NOW ABOUT BEING ABLE TO BE A FULL-TIME HUSBAND, FATHER?

WHAT'S NEXT FOR RAFAEL NADAL?

>> I'M WORKING MORE THAN WHAT I EXPECTED, BUT I AM ABLE TO ENJOY A LOT, MY TIME WITH MY FAMILY, YOU KNOW.

YEAH.

I THINK IT WAS GREAT THAT DOING ALL THOSE YEARS, MY FATHER, MY MOTHER, THEY WERE NOT PUBLIC.

MY GIRLFRIEND OR WIFE, THE SAME THING BECAUSE FOR ME, PERSONALLY AND FOR THEM, IT WAS GREAT TO COME BACK HOME AND HAVE A REALLY NORMAL LIFE, YOU KNOW?

NOT BE EXPOSED AS A -- AS A FAMILY SHOW.

JUST, YOU KNOW, I WAS A FAMOUS TENNIS PLAYER, BUT THAT STAYS ON MYSELF.

NO OTHER NEEDS TO PAY THAT PRICE, NO?

AND OF COURSE, THE DOCUMENTARY, THE PERSONAL DOCUMENTARY IS NOT ALL THAT, THEY TALK, BUT YEAH.

I AM ENJOYING MY NEW LIFE.

I'M WORKING ON MY PROJECTS, THE ACADEMY, THE FOUNDATION, THE HOTELS, THE NDL PROJECT.

I MEAN, A LOT OF THINGS THAT ARE MOVING FORWARD, BUT AT THE SAME TIME, I AM ORGANIZING MY TIME TO SPEND AS MUCH TIME AS I CAN WITH -- WITH MY FAMILY AND ENJOYING BEING A FATHER AS WELL.

IT'S THE BEST THINGS OF MY LIFE THAT I EXPERIENCED.

DIFFICULT AND TIRING SOMETIMES, BUT REALLY AMAZING.

>> WELL, THAT'S GREAT.

RAFAEL NADAL, THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>> THANK YOU.

THANK YOU.

>>> NOW IT'S BEEN A BIG WEEK FOR BIG TECH.

FRESH OFF CEO SAM ALTMAN'S LEGAL VICTORY AGAINST ELON MUSK, NEWS COMES THAT OPENAI IS REPORTEDLY PLANNING TO GO PUBLIC VERY SOON AS IS MUSK'S SPACEX.

MIKE ISAAC IS A REPORTER FOR "THE NEW YORK TIMES," AND HE SHARES ANALYSIS OF THE RECENT COURT BATTLE WITH MUSK WITH HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

MIKE ISAAC, THANKS FOR JOINING US AGAIN.

YOU HAVE COVERED TECH FOR A LONG TIME.

YOU'VE COVERED THE RISE OF AI HERE.

WE'VE GOT THIS VERDICT FROM A JURY WITHIN A COUPLE OF HOURS ON MONDAY REJECTING ELON MUSK'S $150 BILLION LAWSUIT AGAINST SAM ALTMAN.

YOU KNOW, FOR PEOPLE WHO AREN'T IN TECH, WHY DID THIS TRIAL MATTER?

>> IT'S FUNNY.

A LOT OF JOURNALISTS AND FOLKS IN THE MEDIA WERE BASICALLY SAYING, WHAT DID WE LEARN HERE AFTERWARDS?

WE DID KIND OF GO BACK TO THE STATUS QUO, BUT I THINK IT WAS ONE OF THESE MOMENTS AS AI IS DEVELOPING PRETTY RAPIDLY THAT, YOU KNOW, BECAUSE OF TWO BILLIONAIRES, ESSENTIALLY ENTANGLED IN A LEGAL BATTLE, WE'RE ASKING WHO SHOULD BE THE STEWARD OF DEVELOPING THIS NEXT-GENERATION INTELLIGENCE, YOU KNOW?

AND A LOT OF THIS TRIAL WAS ELON MUSK LEVYING THIS LAWSUIT SAYING, YOU KNOW, SAM ALTMAN IS NOT DOING THIS FOR THE RIGHT REASONS.

WE STARTED THIS AS AN ALTRUISTIC ENDEAVOR AND TO BUILD SAFE AI, AND NOW AS THE COMPANY HAS DOLLAR SIGNS IN THEIR EYES, THEY WANT TO BUILD IT AS A PROFITABLE ENDEAVOR, AND SAM ALTMAN, OPENAI'S CEO IS SAYING, ELON MUSK IS JUST BUILDING HIS OWN FOR-PROFIT COMPETITOR AND HE DOESN'T ACTUALLY CARE ABOUT THIS EITHER.

SO -- BUT I REALLY THINK IT WAS ONE OF THESE THINGS THAT IT REMINDS US THAT REALLY -- EVERY BIG TECH CEO IN THE VALLEY RIGHT NOW IS TRYING TO BUILD ADVANCED ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE, AND WE KIND OF HAVE TO WONDER WHO SHOULD -- IF THIS STUFF WORKS, WHO SHOULD BE THE STEWARD OF THAT, AND WHO HAS, LIKE, THE PROPER INTENTIONS IN PLACE?

AND I'M NOT SURE IF WE GOT AN ANSWER OR A CORRECT ANSWER OUT OF THIS TRIAL, BUT AT LEAST IT WAS A REMINDER IF THAT MAKES SENSE.

>> YOU KNOW, I GUESS SOME OF THAT WOULD MAKE SENSE, BUT THIS SEEMS LIKE THIS WAS A FROZEN IN TIME MOMENT BECAUSE FROM THE EMAILS AND DISCOVERY, THIS IS HOW THEY USED TO BE IN 2015.

I MEAN, THEY REALLY LIKED EACH OTHER.

THEY WERE VERY HAPPY TO GET ELON MUSK'S BACKING, RIGHT?

AND THEN HERE THEY ARE TODAY AND THEY'RE UNRECOGNIZABLE.

THEY'RE SPARRING ON EVERY PLATFORM IMAGIIMAGINABLE.

THEY'RE CALLING EACH OTHER NAMES.

>> I MEAN, THAT WAS THE REAL TRIP OF GOING BACK AND READING ALL THESE EMAILS.

LIKE YOU SAID, IT WAS TEN YEARS OF DISCOVERY.

I REMEMBER SOME OF THE EARLIEST ONES IN 2015.

THIS WAS BACK -- YOU HAVE TO REMEMBER ALSO, THIS IS WHEN LON MUSK'S CELEBRITY WAS REALLY HIGH IN A POSITIVE WAY, RIGHT?

THIS WAS -- HE WAS THE ROCKETMAN, AND LITERALLY BASING "IRON MAN," THE CHARACTER OFF OF HIM.

PEOPLE IN GENERAL LIKED HIM, AND SAM ALTMAN WAS RELATIVELY UNKNOWN AS A CHARACTER, AS A STARTUP INCUBATOR GUY, BUT ALL OF THE EMAILS THEY WERE TRADING WERE BASICALLY, YOU KNOW, I'M PRIVILEGED TO WORK WITH YOU.

GLAD WE'RE GOING TO BUILD AI FOR THE BETTER, AND ALSO AT A TIME WHERE NO ONE IN THE MAINSTREAM REALLY CARED ABOUT THIS STUFF, YOU KNOW?

IT WAS STILL AN UNPROVEN, RELATIVELY UNTESTED TECHNOLOGY, FAR FROM THE CHATBOTS THAT, YOU KNOW, MILLIONS OF PEOPLE ARE INTERACTING WITH TODAY.

SO I DO THINK IT WAS, LIKE, A TIME CAPSULE INTO A TIME WHERE THIS WAS JUST KIND OF A FAR-FLUNG PURSUIT AND FOR ELON MUSK AT LEAST, AN EXPENSIVE AND, YOU KNOW, ENDEAVOR THAT HE DIDN'T REALLY EXPECT TO SEE ANY RETURN ON.

>> YEAH.

SO WHERE DID THAT RELATIONSHIP GO WRONG?

I MEAN, IT SEEMS LIKE NOW IT'S JUST THIS GRUDGE MATCH THAT'S PLAYING OUT IN COURTS AND SPENDING MILLIONS OF DOLLARS IN LEGAL FEES AND WASTING JURORS' TIME.

>> YEAH, WASTING JURORS' TIME IS A PRETTY GOOD POINT.

IT WAS A MONTH OF TAXPAYER EXPENSES, AND SO AROUND 2017 OR 2018, SAM ALTMAN AND GREG BROCKMAN WHO WAS ANOTHER COFOUNDER AND THE PRESIDENT OF THE COMPANY NOW, STARTED TALKING AND SAYING, LOOK.

THERE'S BEEN SOME ADVANCEMENTS IN AI TECHNOLOGY.

THIS IS ACTUALLY GOING TO COST US A LOT MORE THAN WE THOUGHT TO TRAIN WHAT ARE CALLED AI MODELS WHICH ARE, YOU KNOW, THE SORT OF GEAR UNDER THE HOOD THAT POWERS THESE CHATBOTS, AND WE THOUGHT IT COULD BE MAYBE MILLIONS OR TENS OF MILLIONS AND PERHAPS IT'S GOING TO GO INTO THE BILLIONS EVEN BECAUSE OF JUST HOW RESOURCE-INTENSIVE THESE COMPUTERS AND WHAT ARE CALLED GPUs REQUIRE TO TRAIN THESE MODELS, AND SO ALL OF A SUDDEN, A NONPROFIT DOESN'T MAKE AS MUCH SENSE TO THEM ACCORDING TO THEIR VERSION OF THIS.

ELON MUSK SAYS, HEY, HEY, HEY.

WHAT ARE YOU DOING?

WE GOT HIM TO NOT BUILD WHAT HE CALLED THE TERMINATOR FUTURE.

WE DON'T WANT TO MAKE A PROFIT OFF OF THIS.

WE WANT THIS TO BE A NONPROFIT.

THESE GUYS START -- GREG BROCKMAN AND SAM ALTMAN START TALKING TO MICROSOFT TO TAKE ON MORE INVESTMENT, AND THIS IS REALLY THE GENESIS OF THE DIVERSIONS BETWEEN THEM BECAUSE OF HOW THIS, YOU KNOW, NONPROFIT SHOULD LOOK, WHETHER IT'S A FOR-PROFIT COMPANY OR NOT, AND I THINK THAT'S WHEN THINGS STARTED GETTING REALLY, YOU KNOW, FROM GNARLY TO OUTRIGHT ACRIMONIOUS IN JUST A COUPLE OF YEARS.

>> SO ELON AT THE TIME SAYS, OKAY.

I'M GOING TO RUN IT OR IT'S GOING TO BE IN MY POSSESSION OR CONTROL, AND THE OPENAI FOLKS ARE, LIKE, NO, WE'LL PASS, AND THEN ELON BUILDS HIS OWN BASICALLY COMPETITOR, BUT A FOR-PROFIT?

>> YEAH.

THERE IS THIS OTHER INTERESTING MOMENT DURING THE TRIAL WHERE AS YOU MIGHT IMAGINE, ELON LIKES TO BE IN CONTROL OF THINGS.

HE HAS A LOT OF HIS OWN COMPANIES, TESLA, SPACEX.

IT WAS PAYPAL AT ONE POINT.

THE BORING COMPANY.

HE HAS A BUNCH OF THINGS GOING ON NOW, TWITTER, WHICH IS CALLED X, AND HIS -- AS THIS WAS GETTING, YOU KNOW, ROUGHER BETWEEN THEM, HE WAS SAYING, WE SHOULD INCUBATE OPENAI INSIDE OF TESLA.

THAT WAS ANOTHER THING THAT CAME OUT IN THE TRIAL WHICH PEOPLE DIDN'T -- THAT'S WHEN THEY SORT OF SPLIT AND SAID, NO.

WE'RE GOING TO DO OUR OWN THING, AND EXACTLY WHAT YOU SAID A FEW YEARS LATER.

ELON DECIDES, YOU KNOW, I'VE GOT -- I'VE GOT SPACEX GOING ON.

IDENTIFY GOT TESLA WHICH HAS SELF-DRIVING TECHNOLOGY WHICH ALSO RELIES ON AI.

I SHOULD JUST BE BUILDING THIS MYSELF, AND HE BUYS TWITTER, TURNS IT INTO X AND SORT OF ATTACHES X AI WHICH IS HIS AI WING OF THE COMPANY AND ALSO SOMETHING THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BE A FOR-PROFIT COMPANY.

>> MUSK TOOK TO X TO POINT OUT TO EVERYBODY AND SAID, LOOK.

THE JUDGE AND JURY NEVER ACTUALLY RULED ON THE MERITS OF THE CASE, JUST ON A CALENDAR TECHNICALITY.

THERE'S NO QUESTION TO ANYONE FOLLOWING THE CASE.

THIS IS MUSK'S OPINION, AND A DETAIL THAT ALTMAN AND BROCKMAN DID ENRICH THEMSELVES BY STEALING A CHARITY.

THE ONLY QUESTION IS WHEN THEY DID IT.

I WILL BE FILING AN APPEAL WITH THE 9th CIRCUIT BECAUSE CREATING A PRECEDENT TO GIVING THIS CHAIR TO OPENAI, IT WAS FOUND TO BENEFIT ALL OF HUMANITY.

COULD THEY WIN THAT APPEAL?

>> I MEAN, YES.

TECHNICALLY THEY COULD.

I -- THERE'S A FEW THINGS HE DID RIGHT AFTER THE TRIAL.

OF COURSE, IMMEDIATELY TOOK TO HIS SOCIAL NETWORK AND STARTED GIVING HIS OPINION.

HE ALSO DID A POST CALLING THE JUDGE AN ACTIVIST JUDGE AND, LIKE, REALLY, YOU KNOW, RAILING AGAINST HER AND THEN I THINK HIS LAWYERS ADVISED HIM TO TAKE IT DOWN BECAUSE HE DELETED THAT TWEET WITHIN THE DAY, AND THAT'S PROBABLY -- IT'S PROBABLY A SMART IDEA AND WE ACTUALLY GOT OUTREACH FROM HIS SIDE SAYING, HEY.

CAN YOU NOTE THAT HE DELETED THE TWEET?

BUT I DO THINK THAT -- I KNOW, EXACTLY.

IT WAS NOT SMART FROM HIM, BUT I THINK THAT -- I WANT TO SAY, LIKE, HIS POINT ABOUT IT BEING A TECHNICALITY IS A LITTLE TOO STRONG BECAUSE LOOK.

ONE OF THE BIG KEY POINTS OF THE CASE WAS STATUTE OF LIMITATIONS, AND HE LEFT IN 2018.

HE DIDN'T FILE THIS SUIT UNTIL 2024, AND THERE'S A THREE-YEAR SPAN OF TIME IN WHICH YOU CAN FILE THESE SUITS, AND HE DIDN'T DO IT THERE.

SO, LIKE, THAT WAS -- THAT'S LAW RATHER THAN JUST SORT OF A MINOR DETAIL.

THAT SAID, WE DIDN'T GET TO HEAR THE JURY RULE ON THE MERITS OF WHETHER THE OTHER TWO COUNTS OF UNJUST ENRICHMENT AND THINGS THAT ELON MUSK DID ALSO CHARGE, AND SO, YOU KNOW, I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY, IS THERE ANOTHER WAY TO HEAR WHETHER HE WOULD WIN THOSE OR NOT?

BUT I DON'T THINK THAT'S REALLY HONESTLY THE POINT AT THIS POINT.

I THINK IT ACTUALLY BENEFITS FOR HIM TO KEEP THIS TIED UP IN COURT AS LONG AS POSSIBLE.

>> SO RIGHT BEFORE THE TRIAL, ELON MUSK SENT OUT THIS TEXT TO GREG BROCKMAN, THE COFOUNDER OF OPENAI WITH SAM ALTMAN.

HE SAID, I'M GOING TO MAKE SURE YOU AND SAM ALTMAN ARE THE MOST HATED MEN ON EARTH.

SO IF THE GOAL IS TO JUST REPUTATIONALLY DAMAGE SAM ALTMAN AND OPENAI WHEN THIS GOES PUBLIC, IS THAT A WIN FOR ELON?

>> I MEAN, IT'S A GREAT POINT AND I WAS PRETTY UNEQUIVOCAL IN HOW HE PUT IT.

I BELIEVE THAT WAS A DIRECT MESSAGE ON X BECAUSE SO MUCH OF WHAT THESE GUYS DO IS ON SOCIAL MEDIA A LOT OF THE TIME.

>> RIGHT, RIGHT.

>> BUT YEAH.

THAT'S -- I THINK THE GREATER GOAL IN A LOT OF THIS, AND REALLY THE OUTCOME OF THE TRIAL WAS JUST, LIKE, DRAGGING ALTMAN AND OPENAI THROUGH THE MUD, AND I REMEMBER SPECIFICALLY SAM ALTMAN'S TESTIMONY JUST CAME OUT WITH THIS BRUTAL SERIES OF CHARACTER ATTACKS AND ASKING, CAN YOU TRUST THIS PERSON?

CAN YOU TRUST SAM ALTMAN?

CAN YOU TRUST THIS COMPANY?

AND ENTERING THAT INTO THE RECORD, I THINK, FOR -- AT A TIME, IN PARTICULAR, WHEN I THINK A LOT OF PEOPLE -- EVERYDAY PEOPLE DON'T NECESSARILY THINK AI IS GOING TO BE POSITIVE FOR THEM OR THEIR JOBS, OR THEIR WELL-BEING, THAT'S -- THAT'S DAMAGING, YOU KNOW?

IT'S DAMAGING TO THIS COMPANY, AND I THINK IN A WAY, ELON MUSK DID KIND OF WIN IN THAT REGARD.

>> WE'VE SEEN THIS INCREDIBLE PUBLIC OPINION SHIFT FROM HOLY COW.

THIS IS AN AMAZING TOOL OR TECHNOLOGY AND I CAN'T BELIEVE THIS COMPUTER CAN DO THIS, RIGHT?

OR SOFTWARE.

TO WAIT, THESE GUYS HAVE BEEN BRAGGING ABOUT HOW IT'S GOING TO TAKE AWAY ALL OUR JOBS AND POTENTIALLY KILL US ALL, AND OH BY THE WAY, YOU'RE USING ALL THIS POWER AND WATER.

I DON'T REALLY WANT THIS IN MY NEIGHBORHOOD, RIGHT?

IT'S SO QUICK THAT SHIFT HAS HAPPENED, AND I WONDER, DOES ANYBODY WIN HERE?

>> RIGHT.

I COMPLETELY AGREE, AND I THINK THAT IT'S INTERESTING.

I THINK ALL THE CEOs RIGHT NOW, CERTAINLY AT OPENAI, HAVE -- WE'VE REPORTED ON INTERNAL DISCUSSIONS THERE.

THEY'VE BOUGHT A MEDIA COMPANY TO TRY TO CHANGE THAT NARRATIVE BASICALLY.

AT ANTHROPIC WHICH IS ANOTHER STARTUP THAT COMPETES WITH THESE COMPANIES, BUT ALSO HAS QUICKLY GROWN, AND THEY ARE PROBABLY THE LOUDEST VOICES ON HOW PROFOUNDLY -- POTENTIALLY DAMAGING OR AT LEAST RESHAPING OF SOCIETY THAT AI COULD BE, AND THEN WE HAVE GOOGLE, WHICH JUST HAD THEIR BIG DEVELOPER EVENT CALLED GOOGLE IO THIS WEEK TRYING TO FIGURE OUT HOW TO BRING THIS AS A POSITIVE MESSAGE TO THE WORLD, BUT I THINK ALL OF THESE COMPANIES HAVE FIGURED OUT, LIKE, OKAY.

WE'VE -- WE'VE BEEN WARNING THE ALARM BELLS FOR TOO LONG AT THIS POINT, AND WE NEED TO SHIFT THE NARRATIVE OF, OKAY.

THESE ARE TOOLS THAT CAN ACTUALLY HELP YOU.

THESE CAN HAVE ECONOMIC BENEFITS RATHER THAN PUT YOU OUT OF -- OUT OF WORK.

MEANWHILE, THE BIGGEST SOFTWARE COMPANIES IN THE WORLD ARE CUTTING 10% TO 20% OF THEIR RANKS BECAUSE THEY FEEL LIKE THEY CAN REPLACE THOSE WORKERS WITH AI.

SO IT'S A REAL MIXED MESSAGE, AND TO YOUR POINT, TRYING TO MAKE THIS STUFF SOUND GOOD WHILE AT THE SAME TIME, SHOWING, YOU KNOW, HAIR-RAISING EMAILS FROM THE PAST AND CEOs SCREAMING AT EACH OTHER ONLINE AT LEAST IS A -- IT'S A VERY BIG CONTRAST IS WHAT I WOULD SAY.

>> DOES ANY OF THIS AFFECT OPENAI WHICH IS WANTING TO GO PUBLIC?

SPACEX WHICH IS ONE OF ELON'S COMPANIES THAT OWNS XAI.

THAT'S GOING TO GO PUBLIC.

DO I THINK ABOUT THAT AND SAY, SHOULD I BE PUTTING MY MONEY BEHIND THESE COMPANIES THAT ARE PRIMARILY THESE BIG FIGUREHEADS?

>> I THINK THAT'S ANOTHER HUGE POINT OF, YOU KNOW, THIS TRIAL AND DRAGGING CERTAINLY SAM THROUGH THE MUCK, BUT, LIKE, BOTH SIDES, AND YOU'RE EXACTLY RIGHT IN THE SENSE THAT, LIKE, 2026, EVERY -- NOT EVERY, BUT MANY OF THE BIG AI COMPANIES ARE TRYING TO GET OUT THE DOOR AND GO PUBLIC, AND THAT'S BECAUSE THEY KNOW THERE'S A LOT OF INVESTOR AND RETAIL SENTIMENT TO GET EXPOSURE TO AI COMPANIES, WHICH ARE BASICALLY PROPPING UP SIGNIFICANT PARTS OF THE ECONOMY RIGHT NOW, HUGE INVESTMENTS IN INFRASTRUCTURE, AND SO THERE'S KIND OF A RACE BETWEEN SPACEX AS YOU SAID, WHICH IS LIKE THIS WEIRD NESTING DOLL OF ALL OF ELON'S COMPANIES.

OPENAI AS WELL AS ANTHROPIC WHICH ALSO WANTS TO GO PUBLIC THIS YEAR, BUT I THINK THAT WAS ONE OF THE MOST DAMAGING PARTS FOR OPENAI IN THIS TRIAL.

ONE OF THE OTHER THINGS THEY RECALLED WAS HOW ALTMAN WAS BRIEFLY FIRED BY HIS OWN BOARD OF DIRECTORS AND HAD EXECUTIVES AT THE TOP OF THE COMPANY WRITING EMAILS TO EACH OTHER SAYING, "I CAN'T TRUST THIS GUY", AND SO YOU HAVE -- WHETHER PEOPLE BELIEVE THAT OR NOT, YOU HAVE THESE -- THESE FIGUREHEADS WHO, YOU KNOW, WHO RETAIL INVESTORS MIGHT BE, LIKE, ALL RIGHT.

DO I TRUST THIS GUY WHO HAS BEEN PAINTED AS BASICALLY THE BIGGEST LIAR IN SILICON VALLEY WITH MY MONEY OR DO I WANT TO WAIT FOR ANTHROPIC OR GO WITH ELON MUSK?

>> YOU KNOW, WE THINK OF SILICON VALLEY AS THIS PLACE WHERE EVERYTHING'S KIND OF HAPPENING IN SOME GARAGE AND, YOU KNOW, MAYBE IT'S A SORT OF NOSTALGIA TO APPLE AND HEWLETT PACKARD AND THESE COMPANIES THAT HAVE BECOME HUGE.

NOW IT'S -- IF YOU WANTED TO START AN AI COMPANY, IT'S HUGE AMOUNTS OF MONEY THAT ARE NEEDED FOR THIS.

I MEAN, HOW DIFFERENT IS THAT FROM THE CULTURE THAT YOU HAVE COVERED IN THE VALLEY FOR DECADES NOW?

>> THAT -- IT'S FUNNY.

I WAS TALKING TO MY EDITOR ABOUT THIS THE OTHER DAY AND SHE WAS SAYING, YOU KNOW, SHE'S BEEN AROUND LONGER THAN I HAVE.

WE'VE BOTH BEEN AROUND FOR A WHILE, AND EVEN SHE WAS SAYING, LIKE, LOOK.

THIS IS -- THIS FEELS DIFFERENT THAN EVER BEFORE.

THE SUMS THAT WE'RE TALKING ABOUT OF MONEY THAT -- JUST THE PURE COMPUTING COST OF ENERGY AS FAR AS HOW MUCH TIME AND POWER AND WHAT'S CALLED COMPUTE, IT TAKES TO TRAIN THESE AI MODELS IS AN ORDER OF MAGNITUDE MORE THAN EVER BEFORE, AND THAT'S WHY THESE COMPANIES ARE MOVING FROM, YOU KNOW, VENTURE CAPITAL INVESTORS TO COURTING -- LITERALLY COURTING GLOBAL GOVERNMENTS AND THEIR ARMS BECAUSE THAT TYPE OF MONEY AND THAT TYPE OF SCALE IS WHAT IS REQUIRED TO BUILD THESE SYSTEMS, AND SO WE -- WE NEED TO STOP THINKING IN THE BILLIONS AND START THINKING IN THE TRILLIONS IS ESSENTIALLY WHAT THEY'RE SAYING WHICH IS CRAZY, AND IT'S ALSO WHY THE IMPLICATIONS ARE SO BIG BECAUSE AS YOU WERE SAYING BEFORE, THIS IS WHERE THE GLOBAL ECONOMY COMES INTO PLAY, AND ANY OF THESE COMPANIES CAN AFFECT US ALL.

>> SO IT'S REALLY IN THAT LARGER CONTEXT THAT SOMETHING AS SMALL AS A TRIAL, THIS IS A PETTY BEEF BETWEEN THESE TWO BILLIONAIRES, TO -- THIS COULD HAVE KNOCK-ON EFFECTS ON HOW THESE COMPANIES GO PUBLIC, WHETHER INVESTORS TRUST THIS.

AS YOU POINT OUT, HOW MUCH OF THE U.S.

ECONOMY IS CURRENTLY PROPPED UP BY WHAT THESE COMPANIES ARE SPENDING AND PLANNING TO SPEND.

>> YEAH, AND, LIKE, I THINK ABOUT THAT NOT TO, YOU KNOW, SCAREMONGER, BUT I THINK ABOUT THAT IN TERMS OF 401(k)s. I THINK ABOUT THAT IN TERMS OF INDEX FUNDS, YOU KNOW?

LIKE, THE -- AND FOR A WHILE NOW, THE TECH SECTOR HAS BEEN ONE OF THE LARGEST GROWTH FACTORS IN, YOU KNOW, THE S&P 500 AND THINGS THAT -- THAT HAVE KEPT THE AMERICAN ECONOMY VERY STRONG, BUT THAT IS ALSO THE OTHER WAY TO LOOK AT IT IS, LIKE, IT'S A HUGE RISK FACTOR IN TERMS OF, OKAY.

IF THIS DOESN'T WORK OUT -- IF THE TYPE OF AI THEY CLAIM TO BE BUILDING IS NOT AS, YOU KNOW, REVOLUTIONARY AS THEY MIGHT SAY, THEN WHAT IS THAT -- WHAT DOES THAT LOOK LIKE?

WHAT DOES THAT MEAN FOR MY RETIREMENT?

THINGS LIKE THAT, OR IF THERE ARE VOLATILE CEOs RUNNING THIS STUFF WHO -- MAYBE WHOSE JUDGMENT WE DON'T TRUST -- >> YEAH.

>> DO I FEEL COMFORTABLE?

I DON'T KNOW.

I THINK -- NOT TO GET TOO ALARMED, IT'S WORTH, LIKE, THINKING ABOUT IN TERMS OF THE COMPANIES THAT WE -- THAT WE LOOK TO, AND THE GOVERNANCE AT THE TOP OF THEM.

>> MIKE ISAAC OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES," THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANKS, HARI.

THANKS FOR HAVING ME.

>>> AND FINALLY, THE ARTIST J.R.

HAS TRANSFORMED PARIS' OLDEST BRIDGE INTO WHAT LOOKS LIKE A ROCKY MOUNTAIN RANGE RISING OUT OF THE RIVER SEINE, USING FABRIC AND AIR TO CREATE THIS FORMATION ACROSS THE WHOLE BRIDGE.

IT ECHOES JEAN CLAUDE'S FAMOUS WRAPPING OF THIS.

IT CAN BE TRANSFORMED AND JUST AS QUICKLY RETURN TO NORMAL.

WHAT REMAINS ARE THE MEMORIES.

AND THAT IS IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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