Fired, Resigned, Promotions Halted: Fmr Navy Cdr. on Hegseth’s Military Purge

>> NOW PUBLIC TRUST IN THE U. S. MILITARY HAS FALLEN TO ONE OF ITS LOWEST LEVELS IN THE LAST 25 YEARS.

WITH JUST 61% OF AMERICANS SAYING THEY HAVE CONFIDENCE IN IT.

BUT SIGNS OF DISCONTENT ARE ALSO EMERGING FROM WITHIN THE MILITARY.

EARLIER THIS MONTH, U. S. ARMY SECRETARY DAN DRISCOLL BECAME THE LATEST IN A STRING OF HIGH PROFILE LEADERS TO DEPART FROM THE RANKS.

AND WHILE DRISCOLL CHOSE TO LEAVE, OTHERS HAVE BEEN FORCIBLY SIDELINED AND REMOVED BY THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, PETE HEGSETH, AS PART OF A CAMPAIGN AGAINST WHAT HE CALLS DEI AND WOKE.

TO DISCUSS WHAT HEGSETH'S OVERHAUL MEANS FOR THE FUTURE OF THE MILITARY, FORMER U. S. NAVY OFFICER THEODORE JOHNSON JOINS MICHEL MARTIN.

>> THANKS, BIANNA.

TED JOHNSON, THANKS SO MUCH FOR SPEAKING WITH US ONCE AGAIN.

>> ALWAYS GOOD TO BE HERE.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THE SCALE OF THE CHANGES AT THE TOP OF THE PENTAGON.

THE SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, AS HE PREFERS, SECRETARY OF WAR, PETE HEGSETH HAS FIRED OR BLOCKED THE PROMOTIONS OF MORE THAN 80 GENERALS AND ADMIRALS.

THAT'S ABOUT 10% OF THE MILITARY'S TOP OFFICERS.

THAT'S THE COUNT OF "THE NEW YORK TIMES. "

WE KNOW THAT THE CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS WAS FIRED EARLY IN TRUMP'S SECOND TERM.

THE HEADS OF THE ARMY, THE NAVY AND THE AIR FORCE HAVE EITHER BEEN REPLACED OR LEFT EARLY.

AS WE WERE SPEAKING, THE SECRETARY OF THE ARMY JUST RESIGNED, AND WE'RE IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ACTIVE MILITARY CONFLICT.

WHAT IS YOUR UNDERSTANDING OF WHAT'S DRIVING ALL THIS TURNOVER?

>> YEAH, SO THERE IS A FEW THINGS GOING ON HERE.

THE FIRST THING IS SECRETARY HEGSETH WAS GIVEN THE MANDATE WHEN HE STARTED TO REDUCE THE NUMBER OF FOUR STARS ACROSS THE MILITARY.

AND, YOU KNOW, A NUMBER OF MILITARY FOLKS HAVE SAID FOR YEARS THE MILITARY IS A LITTLE TOP-HEAVY.

SO THE FACT THAT HE IS REDUCING THE NUMBER OF FOUR STARS AT THE PENTAGON, ACROSS THE SERVICE, THAT WAS PART OF THE PLAN.

THE STORY IS HOW HE IS DOING AND WHO IS HE CHOOSING TO LET GO.

THAT WASN'T PART OF THE PLAN.

THE FIRST THING HE DID WAS ENACT TRUMP'S ANTI-DEI AGENDA TO REDUCE THE RANKS OF THE MILITARY, GOING AFTER BLACK OFFICERS, GOING AFTER WOMEN, GOING AFTER PEOPLE HE BELIEVED DIDN'T EARN THEIR POSITION UNDER DEI GENERALS, NO MATTER THEIR RACE OR GENDER.

THE NEXT THING HE DID WAS ESSENTIALLY PUSH PEOPLE OUT WITHOUT THE PROPER RECOGNITION OF THEIR DECADES OF SERVICE.

AND SO SORT OF LIKE JUST UNGRACIOUSLY DISMISSED FROM THEIR JOBS, EVEN WHEN THEY WERE ON PROMOTION LISTS, EVEN WHEN THEY HAVE THE RESPECT OF THEIR COLLEAGUES, AND EVEN WHEN THEIR CAREER TRAJECTORY SUGGESTS THIS WAS THE LOGICAL NEXT STEP FOR THEIR CAREERS, THEY WERE UNCEREMONIOUSLY LET GO.

SO THE PROBLEM IS THE MANNER THAT HE IS GOING ABOUT THE MANDATE AND WHO HE IS CHOOSING TO, YOU KNOW, RID THE ARMY OF, RID THE MILITARY OF.

>> SO TO YOUR POINT, THE RACIAL AND GENDER PATTERN IN HIS DECISIONS CAN'T BE IGNORED.

MORE THAN HALF --MORE THAN HALF OF THE OFFICERS AFFECTED BY SECRETARY HEGSETH'S DISMISSALS ARE BLACK OR FEMALE.

THERE ARE CURRENTLY NO ACTIVE DUTY FEMALE FOUR-STAR GENERALS OR ADMIRALS.

THIS IS THE LOWEST PERCENTAGE OF WOMEN NOMINATED FOR GENERAL OR ADMIRAL IN AT LEAST 25 YEARS.

I GUESS THE FIRST QUESTION I HAVE IS HOW WOULD HE KNOW WHETHER THESE PEOPLE WERE QUALIFIED FOR THEIR POSITIONS OR NOT?

>> HE DOESN'T.

THAT'S THE THING.

LOOK, THERE IS ONE FAIL-SAFE WAY TO KNOW WHETHER THE PERSON IS QUALIFIED.

LOOK AT THEIR RECORD.

THEY HAVE EVERY YEAR OFFICERS ARE EVALUATED BY THEIR SUPERIOR OFFICERS ON THEIR PERFORMANCE.

YOU DON'T SPEND 25, 30 YEARS IN THE MILITARY BY FAILING EVERY EVALUATION.

THE VERY FACT THAT THEIR NAMES ARE ON THE LIST SUGGESTS THAT THEY'RE QUALIFIED.

THE NEXT THING TO DO IS TRUST YOUR SENIOR OFFICERS AROUND YOU TO SPEAK TO THE PERSON'S CHARACTER, THEIR SERVICE, THEIR REPUTATION AND THEIR POTENTIAL, INSTEAD OF RELYING ON YOUR OWN, YOU KNOW, SORT OF WHIMS AND THE POLITICAL WINDS TO MAKE CHOICES ABOUT WHO SHOULD LEAD THE MILITARY.

SO THIS IS NOT HOW BUSINESS IS DONE.

THE MILITARY IS SUPPOSED TO HAVE ONE OF THE MOST MERIT SYSTEMS IN THE COUNTRY.

THAT'S UNDERMINED BY NEPTISM OTISM AND AT A TIME WITH THE WAR AND THE GULF.

>> CHIEF PENTAGON SPAM SEAN PARNELL SAID MILITARY PROMOTIONS ARE GIVEN TO THOSE WHO EARNED THEM.

THIS HAS ALWAYS BEEN THE CASE UNDER SECRETARY HEGSETH AND WILL NOT CHANGE.

AND OF COURSE PRESIDENT TRUMP HAS CONTINUED TO DEFEND HIM.

DESPITE THE FACT SOME MEMBERS OF CONGRESS WHO ARE REPUBLICANS ARE STARTING TO QUESTION THESE DECISIONS.

BUT HOW DO YOU RESPOND TO THEIR NOTION THAT THEIR ASSERTION THAT RACE OR GENDER HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH IT?

>> YEAH, IT'S JUST NOT TRUE.

BECAUSE IF THAT WERE THE CASE, THE VAST MAJORITY OF ADMIRALS AND GENERALS ARE WHITE MEN.

AND THE DISPROPORTIONATE NUMBER OF FOLKS THAT HAVE BEEN FIRE READY NOT.

SO EVEN IF YOU'RE JUST TO GET RID OF THE CHAFF, THE DEAD WEIGHT, AS HE WOULD SAY, IT WOULD LOOK RACIALLY LIKE THE FLAG OFFICERS AND GENERAL OFFICERS THAT ARE SERVING.

IT DOESN'T.

LOOK, I WILL TELL YOU THAT WHEN MAKE AMERICA GREAT AGAIN VISITS THE PENTAGON, THE YEAR MUST BE 1945 OR SO, BECAUSE IT WASN'T UNTIL 1948 WHEN THE SERVICE WAS DESEGREGATED BY EXECUTIVE ORDER.

SO IT'S LIKE THEY'RE TRYING TO ROLL BACK THE CLOCK.

ENLISTED, IT'S FINE TO BE DIVERSE, UNLESS YOU HAVE RAZOR BUMPS, IF YOU'RE NOT HEALED FROM YOUR RAZOR BUMPS, YOU GET KICKED OUT OF THE MILITARY.

GOING BACK TO A SERVICE BEFORE SEGREGATION SEEMS TO BE WHEN THE PENTAGON WAS GREAT AGAIN, EVEN THOUGH IT DIDN'T TECHNICALLY EXIST THEN.

THIS IS MATTER OF TRYING TO ROLL BACK THE CLOCK, TRYING TO REVERSE THE GAINS AND PROGRESS THAT HAS BEEN MADE OVER THE COUNTRY'S LIFE SPAN, AND DISHONORING THE SERVICE OF THE PEOPLE THAT HAVE BEEN LET GO AND THE SERVICE OF THOSE WHO DIED FOR THE COUNTRY IN HOPES OF NOT JUST SPREADING DEMOCRACY AROUND THE WORLD, BUT ALSO MAKING DEMOCRACY ACCESSIBLE, FAIRNESS, EQUITY, OR EQUALITY, THESE THINGS ACCESSIBLE TO FOLKS HERE AT HOME.

>> NOW YOU MADE A REFERENCE TO RAZOR BUMPS.

I'M NOT SURE WHAT EVERYBODY UNDERSTANDS WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.

WHAT ARE YOU SAYING?

>> THERE IS SO MUCH TO THIS.

SO THE MILITARY DOES NOT ALLOW FACIAL HEY, AND HASN'T FOR DECADES.

YOU CAN GET A WAIVER BECAUSE FOLKS LIKE ME, IF YOU SHAVE EVERY SINGLE DAY, YOUR HAIR GROWS CURLY, IT GROWS BACK INTO YOUR SKIN, IT CREATES BUMPS.

AND WHEN YOU SHAVE THOSE BUMPS, YOU BLEED.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU CAN TELL, BUT I'VE GOT SCARRING UNDER MY BEARD HERE BECAUSE OF ALL THE SHAVING I DID FOR 20 YEARS IN THE MILITARY.

THE REASON I HAVE A BEARD ISN'T TO BE COOL, I CAN'T SHAVE EVER DAY.

ALL THE MARKS AND ALOPECIA SPOTS AND ALL THESE THINGS THAT ARE HERE.

THIS IS WHAT HEGSETH CALLS BEARDOS.

HE GATHERED ALL OF THE ADMIRALS AND GENERALS AT QUANTICO LAST YEAR AND GAVE THEM A LECTURE ABOUT HOW FOLKS IN THE MILITARY ARE SUPPOSED TO LOOK.

BEARDS WAS ONE OF THE THINGS THAT CAME FORWARD FROM THIS.

NOT ONLY THAT, BUT THEY RECENTLY CHANGED REGULATIONS SO THAT ONE, NO MORE BEARD KITS.

AND IF YOU CANNOT GET HEALED OF YOUR RAZOR BUMPS WITHIN A YEAR'S TIME, YOU'RE ELIGIBLE OF BEING KICKED OUT.

THIS AT A TIME WHEN THE NATION IS AT WAR.

BUT THE MOST IMPORTANT PART OF THIS IS THAT IT IS DISPROPORTIONATELY BLACK AND HISPANIC MEN THAT SUFFER FROM THESE BUMPS.

AND SO ONCE THESE ADMINISTRATIVE SEPARATIONS START HAPPENING, THESE WILL BE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE DISPROPORTIONATELY DISMISSED FROM MILITARY SERVICE SIMPLY FOR THE FACT -- >> THEIR HAIR GROWS DIFFERENTLY.

>> YEAH, THEIR HAIR IS THE WRONG TEXTURE.

>> THIS ADMINISTRATION HAS MADE NO SECRET OF ITS HATRED FOR DIVERSITY PROGRAMS, WHATEVER THEY ARE AND HOWEVER THEY AROSE.

BUT HEGSETH HAS ARGUED THAT REAL TOXIC LEADERSHIP IS RUINING PEOPLE BASED ON IMMUTABLE CHARACTERISTICS OR QUOTAS INSTEAD OF BASED ON AMERICA.

WHAT'S YOUR RESPONSE TO THAT?

>> NOT AT ALL.

LET'S TAKE THE FITNESS STANDARD, FOR EXAMPLE.

HEGSETH SAID THE FITNESS STANDARD, HE WANTS ONE STANDARD, THE MALE STANDARD.

NO MORE MEN HAVE TO DO THIS AND WOMEN HAVE TO DO THAT.

THAT WAY WE GET AWAY FROM GENDER AND SEX AND HAVE ONE STANDARD.

IF THAT'S THE CASE, WHY IS IT IS MALE STANDARD BASED ON WHAT MEN CAN DO?

THAT'S NOT A GENDER NEUTRAL STANDARD.

IF THERE IS ONE STANDARD, CREATE THE STANDARD.

MAKE MEN AND WOMEN MEET IT, BUT DON'T SAY THE MALE STANDARD IS THE STANDARD.

DON'T SAY KICKING PEOPLE OUT OF THE MILITARY FOR RAZOR BUMPS OR FOR HAVING THE WRONG KIND OF HAIR OR THE WRONG HAIRSTYLES IS COLOR-BLIND, IS RACE NEUTRAL.

IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF THE KINDS OF HAIR AND THE WAY RAZOR BUMPS WORK AND THESE THINGS, IT WILL HAVE A DISPROPORTIONATE IMPACT ON THOSE PEOPLE OF COLOR.

SO IT'S VERY EASY TO SAY THE RIGHT WORDS SO THAT YOU SIDESTEP ANY ACCUSATIONS OF BEING RACIST OR DISCRIMINATORY, BUT AS LONG AS YOU HAVE THE DISPARATE IMPACT THAT YOU HOPE TO HAVE, AND MORE PEOPLE OF COLOR, MORE WOMEN ARE REMOVED, ESPECIALLY FROM PLACES OF POWER, OF SENIORITY, AND OF CONSEQUENTIAL DECISION MAKING AT A GRAND GLOBAL SCALE EVEN, YOU KNOW, IT'S PRETTY CLEAR WHAT HE'S UP TO HERE.

>> WELL, IS THE QUESTION HERE WHETHER THESE STANDARDS ARE RELEVANT TO FORCE READINESS OR NOT.

I MEAN, THERE ARE SOME FIELDS IN WHICH BEARDS ARE NOT DESIRABLE BECAUSE THEY DO INTERFERE WITH YOUR ABILITY TO WEAR PROTECTIVE EQUIPMENT, FOR EXAMPLE.

THERE ARE SOME JOBS IN WHICH ONE HAS TO ASSUME THAT UPPER BODY STRENGTH IS HIGHLY RELEVANT.

SO I GUESS THE QUESTION WOULD BE, ARE THESE STANDARDS THAT HE WANTS TO REIMPOSE RELEVANT TO FORCE READINESS OR NOT?

>> NO, THEY'RE NOT.

AND IT'S BECAUSE IT'S FIND TO ONE ONE STANDARD ACROSS THE BOARD, BUT IT ALSO IS FINE, AND PRACTICED IN THE MILITARY TO HAVE STANDARDS TAILORED TO THE JOB THAT YOU DO IN THE MILITARY.

SO YOU HAVE TO BE A CERTAIN HEIGHT TO BE A PILOT THAT MEANS YOU CAN'T BE SHORT THAN A CERTAIN HEIGHT, AND YOU CAN'T BE TOO TALL TO BE A PILOT BECAUSE YOU GOT TO FIT IN THE COCKPIT.

IF SOMEONE HAS A BEARD BUT THEY DON'T HAVE TO WORRY ABOUT A GAS MASK, THEY WORK IN ADMIN, WHY SHOULD THEY BE KICKED OUT BECAUSE THEY CAN'T SHAVE EVERY DAY?

IF THEY SUDDENLY NEED TO PUT ON A GAS MASK OR THEY'RE GOING ON A DEPLOYMENT, BEARDS CAN BE SHAVED.

IT'S NOT LIKE IF YOU HAVE RAZOR BUMPS, YOU CAN NEVER SHAVE IN YOUR LIFE.

IT'S THE SORT OF THE FREQUENCY OF SHAVING AND THAT SORT OF THING THAT COMPLICATES THINGS.

THE POINT I'M TRYING TO MAKE IS IF A JOB REQUIRES A SPECIFIC ABILITY IN TERMS OF HEIGHT OR IN TERMS OF STRENGTH OR IN TERMS OF ENDURANCE, THEN YOU TAILOR THE STANDARD TO THE JOB, BUT YOU DON'T ROLL OUT A STANDARD THAT BASICALLY FITS WHITE CHRISTIAN MEN WHO ARE IN SHAPE WITH NO BEARD BUMP, NO RAZOR BUMPS AND BEARDS.

YOU SAY OKAY, THAT'S A STANDARD FOEMPB.

EVERYONE HAS TO MEET THAT, AND TACK ON EXTRA THINGS DEPENDING ON THE JOB.

I THINK YOU MAKE THE STANDARD ONE THAT FITS THE COUNTRY, THAT DOES NOT HAVE A DISPARATE IMPACT ON PEOPLE OF COLOR OR BASED ON THEIR GENDER.

AND IF YOU HAVE TO INCREASE THE STANDARD BECAUSE THEY WANT TO BE SPECIAL FORCE, A PILOT, COMBAT ENGINEER, WHATEVER IT IS, YOU DO.

SO BUT THAT ALLOWS YOU TO PRESERVE THE SERVICE, THE PEOPLE THAT WANT TO SERVE THE COUNTRY INSTEAD OF JUST MAKING CHOPS CROSS THE BOARD WITHOUT ANY SORT OF STRATEGIC OR TAILORED APPROACH TO SHAPING THE SERVICE.

>> I'M ALSO CURIOUS ABOUT HOW LONG IT TAKES TO GET PEOPLE TO THE LEVEL OF EXPERIENCE THAT ARE BEING SORT OF MUSTERED OUT.

>> RIGHT.

>> I'M THINKING ABOUT THESE ARE DECADES OF COMBAT EXPERIENCE.

>> YES.

>> THAT HAVE BEEN USHERED OUT THE DOOR.

>> YEAH.

IT'S INCALCULABLE.

THE YEARS YOU MAY BE ABLE TO CALCULATE.

THE EXPERIENCE LOST, NEVER.

THE PROFESSIONALISM LOST, NEVER.

IT TAKES 25 YEARS MINIMUM TO BUILD AN ADMIRAL OR A GENERAL, AND THAT'S JUST FOR THE FIRST STAR.

THE PEOPLE HE'S LET GOING ARE THREE AND FOUR STARS.

AFTER THAT FIRST STAR YOU GET BETWEEN THE 25 AND 30-YEAR MARK, ADD ANOTHER FOUR YEARS FOR EVERY ADDITIONAL STAR YOU GET.

MAYBE THREE.

AND MAYBE EVEN QUICKER DEPENDING ON THE ADMINISTRATION.

BUT A FOUR-STAR THAT'S BEEN AROUND FOR MORE THAN 30 YEARS WITHOUT --ALMOST WITHOUT FAIL.

AND TO PUSH THOSE PEOPLE OUT THE DOOR, YOU CAN'T JUST WALK OUT AND HIRE A CEO, A FORTUNE 500 AND REPLACE THEM, YOU KNOW, PUT THEM IN THE PLACE OF A FOUR-STAR.

YOU HAVE TO BUILD THAT FOUR-STAR FROM SCRATCH.

AND I SAY FROM SCRATCH BECAUSE THE PEOPLE THAT ARE BEING PUT IN THOSE POSITIONS NOW ARE FOLKS THAT ARE --A LOT OF THEM, ESPECIALLY IN THE HIGHEST RANKS OF THE PENTAGON ARE FOLKS THAT ARE CLOSE TO THIS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE, CLOSE TO THIS ADMINISTRATION, OR AT LEAST HASN'T RUFFLED THEIR FEATHERS ENOUGH.

IT'S NOT THAT YOU'RE NECESSARILY PROMOTING THE BEST IN THESE MOMENTS, YOU'RE PROMOTING THE FOLKS THAT FIT A PARTICULAR MOLD.

THE PEOPLE THEY'RE REPLACING THOSE KINDS OF FOLKS, THAT EXPERTISE IS HARD TO BUILD AND YOU CAN'T IMPORT IT.

YOU CAN'T SURGE EXPERIENCE.

YOU HAVE TO BUILD IT.

>> SO IT'S INTERESTING.

THE SECRETARY OF THE ARMY, DAN DRISCOLL RESIGNED DAYS AGO, REPORTEDLY AFTER WARNING PRESIDENT TRUMP DIRECTLY THAT SECRETARY HEGSETH WAS PUSHING OUT SOME OF THE ARMY'S MOST COMBAT-TESTED LEADERS AND UNDERMINING CONFIDENCE IN THE PROMOTION SYSTEM.

THIS IS ACCORDING TO THE TIMES, AND THERE ARE PEOPLE WHO ARE FAMILIAR WITH THIS MEETING.

AND I'M JUST CURIOUS ABOUT THAT, THE FACT THAT THE SECRETARY OF THE ARMY RESIGNED IN THE MIDDLE OF AN ACTIVE CONFLICT BECAUSE THE U. S. HAS BEEN AT WAR WITH IRAN, WHICH THE U. S. STARTED WITH ISRAEL FOR SIX MONTHS NOW.

>> RIGHT.

>> IN WHICH THE U. S. HAS SUSTAINED CASUALTIES.

AND I'M JUST WONDERING WHAT THAT RESIGNATION SAYS TO YOU.

I DON'T KNOW IF YOU HAVE ANY VISIBILITY INTO IT BEYOND WHAT THE REPORTING HAS INDICATED, BUT WHAT DOES THAT SAY TO YOU?

>> I DON'T KNOW THE FORMER ARMY SECRETARY.

I HAVEN'T DONE ANY REPORTING ON THIS.

BUT TWO THINGS STAND OUT TO ME.

NUMBER ONE, FOR HIM TO RESIGN, AS YOU SAID, IN A MOMENT WHERE THE NATION'S AT WAR, AT A MOMENT WHERE THE ARMY IS IN NEED OF TRANSFORMATION TO MEET THE CURRENT LEVEL OF THREATS BOTH GEOGRAPHICALLY BUT ALSO TECHNOLOGICALLY, FOR HIM TO WALK AWAY MEANS THAT HE FEELS LIKE HE WAS BEING TREATED AS SECRETARY IN NAME ONLY.

AND I'M TELLING YOU SERVICE SECRETARIES DO NOT TAKE THE JOB TO BE A FIGUREHEAD.

THEY TAKE THE JOB BECAUSE THEY CARE ABOUT THE COUNTRY, THE SERVICE, AND THEY WANT TO DO WHAT'S BEST FOR IT.

WHEN THAT AVENUE GETS BLOCKED, THOSE FOLKS DON'T STICK AROUND AND JUST DO THE CEREMONIES.

THEY WALK AWAY.

ANOTHER POINT, THOUGH, HEGSETH BARELY MADE IT TO THE PENTAGON.

IT WAS A 50-50 TIE, AND VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT VANCE WAS THE ONE THAT BROKE THE TIE.

VICE PRESIDENT VANCE WENT TO LAW SCHOOL WITH FORMER ARMY SECRETARY DRISCOLL.

AND FOR HEGSETH TO PUSH OUT DRISCOLL, WHO IS FRIENDS WITH THE VICE PRESIDENT, WHO MADE HEGSETH THE SECRETARY IN THE FIRST PLACE BY BREAKING THE TIE-BREAKING VOTE SHOWS YOU ONE THAT VANCE IS ON THE OUT.

HE CLEARLY IS NOT IN DECISION-MAKING CYCLE WHEN IT COMES TO THE PENTAGON.

AND TWO, THAT HEGSETH HAS TRUMP'S EAR.

THE REPORTING SUGGESTS THAT DRISCOL WENT TO TRUMP TO TELL HIM WHAT THE PROBLEMS WERE, TO TELL HIM HOW MANY FOLKS HAD BEEN FIRED, THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO TRUMP, TO TELL HIM HOW HIS RECOMMENDATIONS ARE BEING BLOCKED THAT WAS A SURPRISE TO TRUMP, ACCORDING TO THE REPORTING.

BUT DRISCOL WAS THE ONE WHO TURNED IN HIS RESIGNATION, AND HEGSETH IS STILL FLYING HIGH.

SO THAT ALSO SUGGESTS WHERE THE CHAIN OF COMMAND LIES AND WHO'S ON THE OUTSIDE AND WHOSE FINAL WORD MATTERS.

AND IT'S NOT THE FOLKS IN THE CHAIRS WITH THE EXPERIENCE AND TRYING TO DO A GOOD JOB.

IT'S NOT EVEN THE VICE PRESIDENT.

IT'S THESE TWO MEN, TRUMP AND HEGSETH THAT ARE UNILATERALLY RESHAPING THE MILITARY, WHO GETS TO SERVE, WHO GETS PROMOTED, AND UNDER WHAT CONDITIONS AND SORT OF WHAT THE REGULATIONS ARE THAT WILL ALLOW FOLKS TO SERVE IN THE FIRST PLACE, NO MATTER WHAT THEIR RANK CIRCUMSTANCES GALLUP SAYS THAT CONFIDENCE IN MILITARY NOW STANDS AT 61%.

>> THAT'S RIGHT.

>> AFTER 9/11, 25 YEARS AGO, IT WAS CONSISTENT FULLY THE LY IN THE 70s AND 80s.

>> THAT'S RIGHTS.

>> DO YOU THINK THAT'S A PART OF THIS?

THAT'S A RESULT OF THIS?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

THIS IS THE COUNTRY EXPRESSING THEIR DISAPPROVAL OF THIS ADMINISTRATION AND THIS PENTAGON.

NOT OF SERVICE MEMBERS.

THE COUNTRY STILL HOLDS A VERY HIGH OPINION OF PEOPLE WHO ARE SERVING AND VETERANS, BUT THEIR OPINION OF THE MILITARY IS WHAT'S LAGGING.

IF YOU WOULD HAVE TOLD ME 25 YEARS AGO, AND I HAD JUST RETURNED FROM MY SECOND DEPLOYMENT FIVE MONTHS BEFORE --FOUR MONTHS BEFORE 9/11 HAPPENED, IF YOU TOLD ME THEN THAT ALL OF THE THANK YOUS AND THE, YOU KNOW, THE EARLY BOARDING, ALL THE THINGS THAT USED TO HAPPEN FOR U. S. MILITARY MEMBERS IN THOSE YEARS WOULD BE GONE.

JUST BARELY OVER HALF THE COUNTRY WOULD HAVE A FAVORABLE OPINION OF THE MILITARY, THE FIRST THING I WOULD ASK YOU WHOEVER IS IN CHARGE, WHAT DID THEY DO TO BREAK IT?

BECAUSE I DO NOT BELIEVE SERVICE MEMBERS WOULD ACT UNETHICALLY AT SUCH A LARGE NUMBER THAT IT WOULD CAUSE THE OPINIONS TO LAG.

I DON'T BELIEVE VETERANS WOULD DO THE SAME.

IT WOULD HAVE TO BE A POLITICAL RATIONALE, REASONING FOR THE DROP, AND IT IS.

SO THIS IS A REFLECTION OF HOW THE COUNTRY FEELS ABOUT HOW THE PENTAGON IS BEING RUN.

I TELL YOU, IT'S NOT GOING AWAY ANY TIME SOON AND IT WILL HAVE RAMIFICATIONS FOR THE MIDTERMS THAT ARE UPCOMING AND MAYBE FOR WHO IS SECRETARY OF DEFENSE OVER THE NEXT SIX TO 12 MONTHS.

>> TED JOHNSON, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR TALKING WITH US.

>> THANK YOU.

ALWAYS GOOD TO BE HERE.