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>> HELLO.
WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY. "
HERE IS WHAT IS COMING UP.
>> JUSTICE.
>> OUTRAGE INTENSIFIES OVER CORNELL'S HANDLING OF GANG RAPE ALLEGATIONS.
I SPEAK TO ANNIE E. CLARK TO UNPACK THE CASE FOLLOWED BY AUTHOR JACKSON KATZ ON WHY ENDING VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IS A MEN'S HOW.
THEN -- >> WE ENCOURAGE RUSSIA TO ARE TRANSPARENT AND SHARE MORE INFORMATION WITH THE WORLD SO THAT ALL OF US COULD REACT ACCORDINGLY AND APPROPRIATELY.
>> DOZENS QUARANTINED IN RUSSIA AFTER A RESEARCH ANTI-PLAGUE INSTITUTER STUDYING THE PLAGUE DIES OF AN UNKNOWN INFECTION.
IS THIS CAUSE FOR ALARM?
INFECTIOUS DISEASE EXPERT ASHISH JHA JOINS ME.
PLUS -- >> IMAGINE LIKE CROP DUSTING OR SOMETHING WHERE YOU ARE SORT OF OVER AS MUCH OF THE INTERNET AS YOU POSSIBLY CAN.
>> AS THE MIDTERMS LOOM, "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTER KEN BENSINGER TELLS HARI SREENIVASAN HOW AN ARMY OF PAID CREATORS IS CARPETING THE WEB WITH POLITICAL CONTENT AND THE POTENTIAL IMPACT ON VOTERS.
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>> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.
THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
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AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
> >> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERY ONE.
JUSTICE FOR JANE DOE WAS THE DEMAND OF THOUSANDS THOUSANDS OF STUDENTS AND STAFF WHO JOINED PROTESTS AT CORNELL UNIVERSITY IN NEW YORK ON MONDAY AMID WIDESPREAD INDIGNATION OVER HOW THE COLLEGE HANDLED RAPE ALLEGATIONS BROUGHT FORWARD BY AN ANONYMOUS FEMALE STUDENT.
LAST MONTH A LUTE WAS FILED BY A WOMAN UNDER THE NAME OF JANE DOE ALLEGING SHE WAS GIVEN DRUGS AND ALCOHOL AND SEXUALLY ASSAULTED FOR HOURS BY SEVEN MEN AT A FRATERNITY HOUSE IN 2024.
WHILE THE UNIVERSITY AND LOCAL AUTHORITIES CONDUCTED AN INVESTIGATION AT THE TIME, THE SEVEN ACCUSED MEN WERE GIVEN PUNISHMENTS OF VARYING LENIENCY AND NO CRIMINAL CHARGES WERE BROUGHT.
SINCE THEN MORE EVIDENCE HAS SURFACED PROMPT THE NEW YORK GOVERNOR KATHY HOCHUL APPOINTING THE STATE'S ATTORNEY GENERAL LETICIA JAMES AS A SPECIAL PROSECUTOR TO OVER THE RENEWED INVESTIGATION.
MANY BELIEVES THIS CASE HIGHLIGHTS HOW INSTITUTIONS CONTINUE TO FAIL VICTIMS OF SEXUAL ASSAULT REIGNITE AGO NATIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL CONVERSATION ABOUT ASSAULT AND RAPE ON COLLEGE CAMPUSES.
ANNIE E. CLARK IS A SURVIVE HERSELF WHAT AND WAS THE LEAD COMPLAINANT IN A CASE GENT THE UNIVERSITY OF NORTH CAROLINA AT CHAPEL HILL AS WILL THE CO-FOUNDER OF END RAPE ON CAMPUS AND IS JOINING ME NOW TO UNPACK ALL OF THIS.
I CAN'T TELL YOU HOW IMPORTANT IT IS TO HAVE YOU WITH US AS WE CONTINUE TO COVER THIS STORY.
WE KNOW AT CORNELL ITHACA YESTERDAY STUDENTS WERE RALLYING, FACULTY IS PREPARING FOR A NO-CONFIDENCE VOTE OVER UNIVERSITY LEADERSHIP'S HANDLING OF THIS CASE.
AS WE NOTED, YOU ARE A SURVIVOR OF SEXUAL ASSAULT AT UNC IN 2007 AND HAVE SPENT SEVERAL YEARS PUSHING UNIVERSITIES TO LISTEN TO SURVIVORS LIKE YOU.
FOR MANY WOMEN, THIS STORY IS PAINFUL, BUT SADLY FAMILIAR.
GIVE US YOUR REACTION TO EVERYTHING THAT YOU HAVE SEEN AND HEARD ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED IN 2024, THE INVESTIGATION AT THE TIME AND WHAT WAS MISSING FROM THAT INVESTIGATION AS WE ARE LEARNING MORE DETAILS AS RECENTLY AS TODAY.
>> HI.
THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME, BIANNA.
I THINK LIKE MANY SURVIVORS BUT ALSO MANY PEOPLE IN GENERAL HEARING THE NEWS OF WHAT HAPPENED AT CORNELL WAS DEVASTATING.
IT WAS INCREDIBLY TRAGIC, SAD AND FOR MANY OF US IT BROUGHT BACK MEMORIES OF OUR OWN ASSAULTS.
HOWEVER, WHAT IT WAS NOT FOR ME AND MANY IN THIS WORK WAS SURPRISING BECAUSE WHAT WE KNOW IS THIS IS NOT AN ISOLATED CASE, IT'S NOT JUST ABOUT CORNELL.
THIS IS AN INTERNATIONAL PROBLEM.
IT'S A CULTURAL PROBLEM.
AND SO, THEREFORE, IT WAS NOT SURPRISING TO ME.
>> CORNELL'S PRESIDENT HAS APOLOGIZED AND HAS PROMISED AN INDEPENDENT REVIEW.
WHAT WOULD MAKE THAT REVIEW CREDIBLE IN YOUR VIEW AT THIS POINT?
>> DEFINITELY.
I THINK FIRST OF ALL, LIKE YOU SAID, INDEPENDENCE.
I THINK THE FACT THAT THE STUDENT JOURNAL -- STUDENT JOURNALISM BROKE THIS STORY WIDE OPEN.
HAD IT NOT BEEN FOR THE STUDENTS, WE WOULDN'T BE TALKING ABOUT THIS TODAY.
SO I THINK TAKING A STEP BACK AND ACKNOWLEDGING THEIR BRAVE I, THE BRAVERY OF JANE DOE AND THE FACT THAT IT SHOULDN'T BE INCUMBENT ON COLLEGE STUDENTS TO HOLD THEIR INSTITUTIONS ACCOUNTABLE NOT ONLY FOR THE CHURL, BUT THE LACK OF ACCOUNTABILITY THAT HAPPENS WHEN SOMEBODY DOES REPORT.
I THINK THE FACT THAT THE --THEY ARE REVIEWER THIS CASE, THAT THE GOVERNOR HAS APPOINTED JAMES AND IS GETTING INVOLVED IS A VERY POSITIVE SIGN.
WE HAVE SEEN THIS BEFORE.
THIS IS OLD.
AND WHAT WE NEED TO MAKE SURE OF IS THAT WE NOT ONLY GET THE FACTS BUT THE CONVERSATION SURROUNDING IT.
WE NEED TO TALK IN OUR SCHOOLS MUCH YOUNGER STARTING IN KINDERGARTEN, RIGHT.
THIS IS NOT THE FIRST TIME WE ARE HEARING ABOUT SEXUAL ASSAULT IS IN COLLEGE.
IT'S WAY TOO LATE.
AND SO I HOPE PEOPLE TAKE FROM THIS CASE NOT ONLY WHAT IS HAPPENING RIGHT NOW, BUT WE LOOK AT THINGS LIKE THE GROUP CHAT.
THE FACT THAT YOU HAD 57 INDIVIDUAL MEN ON THIS CHAT AND NO ONE SAID ANYTHING IS HUGE.
SO I THINK WE ARE AT A CULTURAL MOMENT HERE YET AGAIN LIKE WE WERE, YOU KNOW, ALMOST A DECADE AGO WHERE WE HAVE THE CAPACITY TO DO SOMETHING IF WE CHOOSE TO DO IT.
>> LET'S TALK ABOUT WHERE WE WERE A DECADE AGO.
YOU WERE FEATURED IN A 2015 DOCUMENTARY, HUNTING GROUND, WHICH BROUGHT NATIONAL ATTENTION TO THIS AND THE CONSTITUTIONAL COVER EUROPE THAT FOLLOWED.
MORE THAN A DECADE LATER, HERE WE ARE, ANNIE, HAVING VERY SIMILAR CONVERSATIONS.
WHAT IS CORNELL'S RESPONSE THUS FAR TELL YOU ABOUT WHAT HAS CHANGED SINCE THEN AND WHAT HASN'T?
>> I THINK CORNELL'S RESPONSE IS INCREDIBLY DISAPPOINTING AND IT'S LIKE WE SAW A HOST OF UNIVERSITIES ACROSS THE COUNTRIES FROM COMMUNITY SCHOOLS, COMMUNITY COLLEGES TO IVY LEAGUES.
WE TAKE THESE INSTANCES SERIOUSLY WITH THE BY-LINE AND THEN NOTHING HAPPENED.
BECAUSE INSTITUTIONAL MEMORY IS VERY SHORT AND STUDENTS ARE USUALLY THE ONES HOLDING THEIR INSTITUTIONS ACCOUNTABLE, YOU GET A NEW WAVE OF STUDENTS AND YOU HAVE THE SAME ISSUES.
NOT TO BE TOTALLY BLEAK ON THIS BECAUSE I DO THINK SOME THINGS HAVE CHANGED FOR THE BETTER.
SINCE 2013 AND ESPECIALLY SINCE 2007, MORE STUDENTS ARE EDUCATED ABOUT THEIR RIGHTS.
SIGH PEOPLE TALKING ABOUT TITLE IX AND ASSOCIATION WITH CAMPUS DISCRIMINATION, WITH SEXUAL VIOLENCE, AND BEFORE THAT WAS A CONVERSATION THAT WAS MOSTLY ISOLATED TO ATHLETICS.
WE HAVE ORIENTATION TRAINING.
WE HAVE CONSENT EDUCATION.
BUT WHAT I REALLY THINK IS MISSING HERE THAT DOESN'T GO FAR PARTICULARLY IN THIS CASE YOU HAVE EDUCATED PEOPLE, BRIGHT PEOPLE WHO GOT INTO CORNELL AND THEN THEY MADE A DECISION.
I DO NOT THINK THAT THEY WERE CONFUSED AND ANOTHER TRAINING WOULD HAVE HELPED THEM.
THEY KNEW WHAT CONSENT WAS.
THEY KNEW WHAT THEY WERE DOING WAS WRONG AND SUBSEQUENTLY NOT TO SPECULATE, WHAT WE KNOW ABOUT THE SNAPCHATS AND EVERYTHING RIGHT NOW IS THAT THEY TRIED TO NORMAL A NARRATIVE TO COVER IT UP BECAUSE THEY KNEW WHAT HAPPENED WAS NOT RIGHT.
AND SO I THINK WE ARE REALLY MISSING THAT ACCOUNTABILITY PIECE.
IT'S A MULTIFACETED PROBLEM, CAMPUS SEXUAL VIOLENCE IS, AND IT REQUIRES A MULTIFACETED SOLUTION AND THESE TANINGS ARE ONLY PART OF THAT.
I THINK AGAIN THE CORNELL RESPONSE AS YOU ASKED IS UNFORTUNATELY SIMILAR TO THAT WE SEE AND HAVE SEEN OVER THE PAST DECADE.
I KNOW PEOPLE WERE OUTRAGED THAT THEY WERE SOME OF THE ALLEGED PERPETRATORS WERE FORCED TO WRITE ESSAYS AS SANCTIONS.
THAT HAS BEEN GOING ON FOR DECADES.
THAT'S NOT NEW AND IT NEEDS TO STOP.
WE SEE THIS IN TERMS OF SANCTIONS AT LSU, FOR EXAMPLE, A SURVIVOR THERE, KENDELL FRANCIS REPORTED HER ASSAILANT WHO WAS FOUND RESPONSIBLE IN A TITLE IX SETTING GIVEN A YEAR SUSPENSION AND THEN THEY TOOK THAT AWAY AND HE IS CURRENTLY STILL ON THE FOOTBALL TEAM.
SO WE ARE NOT SEEING ANY ACCOUNTABILITY, NOT CULTURAL ACCOUNTABILITY.
AGAIN FROM KINDERGARTEN TO COLLEGE TO THE UPPER ECHELONS OF GOVERNMENT, WE ARE NOT SEEING ACCOUNTABILITY ACROSS THE BOARD AND THAT IS SOMETHING THAT HAS GOT TO CHANGE.
I BELIEVE AND IN THE SNAP-ON THEY WERE SAYING --THEY WERE TALKING ABOUT ALUMNI SAYING THEY WEREN'T LYING, THIS IS REALLY HAPPENING, MEANING THIS HAS BEEN GOING ON NOT JUST FOR THE PAST SEVERAL YEARS, BUT FOR GENERATIONS.
WE TOE THAT THIS IS A PROBLEM AND A SLAP ON THE WRIST AND AN ESSAY IS NOT GOING TO CHANGE THINGS.
WE NEED REAL ACCOUNTABILITY.
WE NEED JUSTICE AND THE FACT THAT PEOPLE ARE COMING FORWARD STILL IN DROVES SHOWS US HOW WIDESPREAD THIS IS.
>> YEAH, WE SHOULD NOTE ALL SEVEN MEN DENY THESE ALLEGATIONS.
THE ORIGINAL PROSECUTOR REPORTEDLY DECLINED TO BRING CHARGES AFTER REVIEWING JUST A SIX-PAGE SUMMARY, A POLICE SUMMARY WHERE JANE DOE WAS NOT EVEN INTERVIEWED.
WHAT DOES THAT TELL YOU ABOUT WHETHER WOMEN WHO REPORT SEXUAL ASSAULT ARE GETTING A MEANINGFUL HEARING HERE?
>> IT TELLS US THAT THEY ARE NOT TAKING THESE STORIES SERIOUSLY AND WE GO BACK TO THE OLDER FRAME OF BOYS WILL BE BOYS AND THIS IS JUST, YOU KNOW, NOT SOMETHING THAT SERIOUS WHEN IN FACT IT IS A LIFE ALTERING SITUATION FOR SURVIVOR.
AND PEOPLE ARE NOT TREATING IT WITH THE SERIOUSNESS THAT IT DESERVES AND I FIND THAT INCREDIBLY --IT'S STILL HEARTBREAKING THE FACT THAT WE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT, HOPEFULLY, MEANS SOMETHING WILL CHANGE.
>> SOME LEGAL EXPERTS HAVE RAISED CONCERNS ABOUT GOVERNOR HOCHUL APPOINTING LETITIA JAMES AS THE SPECIAL PROSECUTOR HERE.
OUR OWN ELLIE HOENIG HAS ARGUED AS MUCH AND SAYS HER PUBLIC SUPPORT FOR JANE DOE CREATES THE APPEARANCE THAT SHE IS PREJUDGED THE CASE.
DOES THAT ALSO GIVE YOU CAUSE FOR CONCERN AS THIS POTENTIALLY MAKES ITS WAY TO A COURTROOM?
>> I BELIEVE IF YOU CAN INDEPENDENTLY INVESTIGATE THE FACTS AND PUT PERSONAL FEELINGS ASIDE, ABSOLUTELY.
I THINK ANY PROSECUTOR ON ANY CASE HAS AN OBLIGATION TO DO SO.
AND IF SOMEBODY IS BIASED COME NOOLG THAT SITUATION, THEY SHOULDN'T BE ON THAT CASE.
HOWEVER, PUBLICLY SUPPORTING SURVIVORS I DON'T THINK IS CAUSE FOR RECUSAL NECESSARILY.
AND WHAT I DO KNOW IS WHEN SCHOOLS HAVE IN THE PAST BROUGHT IN MIKE --OCCIDENTAL COLLEGE DID, LOTS OF SCHOOLS HAVE BROUGHT IN INDEPENDENT LAW GROUPS TO LOOK AT POLICIES TO SEE WHAT HAS CHANGED, WHAT THEY COULD HAVE DONE BETTER BUT OFTEN THOSE ARE HIRED FROM THE UNIVERSITIES' PERSPECTIVE THERE.
IS AN INCENTIVE NOT TO FIND ANYTHING OR DOWNPLAY IT.
SO I DO AGREE THAT AN INVESTIGATION SHOULD BE TRULY INDEPENDENT, BUT I DO NOT THINK THAT GENERALLY SUPPORTING SURVIVORS SHOULD AUTOMATICALLY SAY THAT SOMEBODY ISN'T ABLE TO CONDUCT AN IMPARTIAL INVESTIGATION.
>> SO ABC NEWS OBTAINED A CALL THAT JANE DOE SECRETLY RECORDED ABOUT THREE WEEKS AFTER THE ALLEGED ASSAULT.
THAT IS LEGAL, EVEN A SINGLE PARTY CONSENT IN TERMS OF THE SECOND PARTY NOT BEING AWARE THAT THE CONVERSATION IS BEING RECORDED.
THAT IS LEGAL IN THE STATE OF NEW YORK.
SOME STATES IT IS NOT, BUT IT IS LEGAL IN NEW YORK.
AND SHE RECORDED THIS CALL WITH A FRATERNITY MEMBER THAT SHE SAYS INVITED HER TO THE HOUSE AND SHE NEEDED -- SHE DESCRIBES NEEDING EMERGENCY CARE AND THERAPY BECAUSE --I AM GOING TO READ FROM THIS RECORDING, THERE'S SO MUCH DAMAGE ON MY BODY AND MY BRAIN.
NOW SHE LATER SAYS AND WE DON'T HAVE THE ORDER OF THIS CONVERSATION, BUT SHE ALSO WENT ON TO SAY F I WANTED TO TAKE THIS SOMEWHERE, WHAT Y'ALL DID WOULD BE CLASSIFIED AS GANG RAPE.
YOU ALREADY KNEW WHEN I CAME IN, I WAS TEN SHOTS DEEP.
NOW, LISTEN TO HIS ACCOUNT.
>> YOU DID TELL ME YOU WERE SOBER, BY THE WAY.
YOU DID, YOU SAID YOU HADN'T BEEN ANYWHERE.
>> SO JANE DOE SAYS SHE WAS, QUOTE, 100% SURE SHE TOLD HIM THAT SHE HAD BEEN AT A BAR FOR A SORORITY EVENT, QUOTE, I NEVER LIE.
SO THAT LEADS US TO NEW YORK'S DEFINITION OF MENTALLY INCAPACITATED AND THAT EXCLUDES VOLUNTARY INTOXICATION.
OTHER GROUNDS FOR RAPE CHARGES, INCLUDING PHYSICAL HELPLESSNESS OR FORCE CAN STILL APPLY.
BUT ADVOCATES SAY THE EXCLUSION DOES LEAVE A SERIOUS GAP.
HOW DO YOU REACT TO THAT AND THE POTENTIAL SCENARIO WHERE THE LEGAL SYSTEM ACTUALLY DOES AN INCREDIBLY DISSERVICE TO POTENTIAL VICTIMS?
>> I THINK THAT LOOPHOLE NEEDS TO BE CLOSED.
AND I BELIEVE IT'S A LAW IN NEW YORK AND ABOUT 19 OTHER STATES RIGHT NOW.
AND IT'S NOT A GOOD LAW AND IT SHOULD -- THAT LOOPHOLE SHOULD BE CLOSED.
I DO THINK THAT IS GOING TO BE AN AREA IF THIS DOES GO FURTHER THAT THE DEFENSE WILL ARGUE ON AND POTENTIALLY MIGHT GET SOME RECOURSE ON.
THAT DOESN'T MEAN WHAT HAPPENED WAS RIGHT BY ANY MEANS AND DOESN'T MEAN IT WASN'T SEXUAL VIOLENCE OR RAPE.
>> IS THIS CASE MIGHT BE A MOMENT OF CHANGE BECAUSE I THINK WE'VE SPENT SO MUCH TIME FOCUSING JUST ON CORNELL, BUT SADLY I WOULD IMAGINE CORNELL IS NOT AN OUTLIER.
WE HEAR STORIES LIKE THIS NOT ONLY HERE IN THE U. S. ON CAMPUSES, BUT PERHAPS AROUND THE WORLD.
WHAT WOULD YOU WANT THE SINGLE TAKEAWAY TO BE FROM THIS?
>> I THINK I HAVE HEARD FROM SO MANY SURVIVORS BOTH IN THE UNITED STATES AND INTERNATIONALLY OVER THE PAST WEEK OR SO SINCE THIS STORY HAS REALLY MADE MEDIA HEADLINES, AND I THINK FROM A LOT OF PEOPLE THERE IS AN ANGER AND FRUSTRATION OF, OKAY, WHY DID I COME FORWARD TEN YEARS AGO?
WHAT HAS CHANGED?
THIS IS THE SAME THING I WAS TAUGHT.
MY PERPETRATOR WAS GIVEN AN ESSAY.
THEY ARE STILL AT SCHOOL.
SHE IS NEVER GOING TO RECEIVE JUSTICE.
AND A LOT OF THAT IS REAL.
RIGHT?
A LOT OF THAT FRUSTRATION IS ABSOLUTELY REAL.
BUT I THINK IT'S IMPORTANT TO REALIZE THAT WE HAVE COME A LITTLE BIT, RIGHT.
IT'S NOT BACK WHERE WE WERE AND WE STILL HAVE A MUCH LONGER WAY TO GO.
BUT THE FACT THAT YOU HAVE AN ENTIRE MOVEMENT OF WOMEN AND MEN, SOME MEN SHARING THEIR STORIES SAYING I AM JANE DOE, I THINK IT'S INCREDIBLY POWERFUL TO KNOW THAT YOU ARE NOT ALONE IN THIS.
WHAT HAPPENED WAS NOT YOUR FAULT.
THERE ARE PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO BELIEVE YOU, AND WE DO HAVE, LIKE I SAID, A LONG WAY TO GO.
WITH THAT NOT ALONENESS, I THINK IS WHERE WE SEE THIS COLLECTIVE RAGE, WHICH I DO THINK IS A HEALTHY COLLECTIVE RAGE BECAUSE THIS IS SOMETHING TO BE VERY ANGRY ABOUT AND TURN THAT RAGE INTO ACTION.
PEOPLE KNOW THEY AREN'T ALONE, BUT THEY ARE ALSO NOT ALONE IN NOT RECEIVING JUSTICE AND NOT RECEIVING A FAIR AND IN SOME CASES LEGAL RESPONSE UNDER TITLE IX FROM THEIR INSTITUTION AND THE UNITED STATES.
OR IN VARIOUS LAWS IN OTHER COUNTRIES.
AND SO, YEAH --GO AHEAD.
>> NO.
I JUST WANT TO MAKE SURE WE HAVE ENOUGH TIME FOR OUR NEXT GUEST BECAUSE WE CLEARLY WANT TO HAVE THE MALE PERSPECTIVE HERE BECAUSE THAT IS CRUCIAL IN PUTTING AN END TO THIS TYPE OF ACTIVITY IS HAVING THESE TYPES OF CONVERSATIONS.
ANNIE E. CLARK, CO-FOUNDER OF THE END RAPE ON CAMPUS, THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.
>> CASES OF SEXUAL VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN ARE NOT UNIQUE TO CORNELL.
A STRING OF ALLEGED RAPE CASES INVOLVING MINOR GIRLS SPARKED PROTESTS IN INDIA WITH THOUSANDS DEMANDING BETTER PROTECTIONS.
ACCORDING TO THE WORLD HEALTH ORGANIZATION, NEARLY 1 IN 3 WOMEN ACROSS THE GLOBE EXPERIENCED PARTNER OR SEXUAL VIOLENCE IN THEIR LIFETIME.
BUT EXPERTS SAY ANY EFFORT TO TACKLE THIS ISSUE MUST INVOLVE EDUCATING MEN AND BOYS.
THAT IS WHERE JACKSON KATZ DEDICATED HIS CAREER.
HE SET THE AUTHOR OF "EVERY MAN: WHY VIOLENCE AGAINST WOMEN IS A MEN'S ISSUE" AND CO-FOUNDER OF THE PROGRAM MENTORS IN VIOLENCE PREVENTION.
HE IS JOINING ME FROM NEW YORK.
JACKSON, SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE YOU ON THE PROGRAM AS I MENTIONED THERE IN OUR PREVIOUS CONVERSATION.
I BELIEVE YOU ARE ABLE TO LISTEN TO THAT AND YOU HEARD THAT ALL OF THESE MEN, ALL SEVEN OF THESE MEN AT CORNELL HAVE DENIED THESE ALLEGATIONS.
SO WHAT QUESTIONS THOUGH SHOULD WE BE ASKING JUST FROM ALL OF THESE ACCOUNTS FROM READING THE SNAPCHATS ABOUT PEER PRESSURE AND CULTURE ON THE PRESSURE TO STAY SILENT, ON THE PRESSURE NOT TO INTERVENE AND DO THE RIGHT THING?
>> WELL, THANKS, BIANNA, FOR HAVING ME ON.
I THINK ONE THE REASONS WHY THIS STORY HAS BECOME SUCH A PHENOMENON BECAUSE GANG RAPES, SORRY TO SAY AND SEXUAL ASSAULT ON UNIVERSITY CAMPUSES IN THE UNITED STATES AND ELSEWHERE HAVE BEEN GOING ON A LONG TIME.
ONE THE REASONS THIS STORY CAUGHT ON IS BECAUSE THERE WAS 50 OTHER MEN, THERE WAS THE SEVEN MEN ALLEGE TODAY HAVE COMMITTED THE GANG RAPE BUT THEN 50 OTHER MEN IN THE FRATERNITY WHO HEARD ABOUT IT, NOBODY SPOKISM THINK THAT'S PART OF THE REASON PEOPLE ARE TALKING ABOUT IT.
I THINK WE HAVE TO UNDERSTAND THIS IS NOT JUST INDIVIDUAL FAILURE.
WHEN YOU HAVE WHOLE GROUPS OF MEN LIKE THAT OR IN A POSITION TO INTERVENE OR SPEAK UP AND DON'T DO IT, IT'S NOT BECAUSE OF JUST INDIVIDUAL FAILURE.
IT'S ABOUT SOMETHING ABOUT --SOMETHING ABOUT LET'S BE HONEST, SOMETHING ABOUT THE CULTURE OF MASCULINITY AND PRESSURES ON MEN CONFORM AND COERCED CONFORMITY IN MALE PEER CHURLS A LOT OF MEN IN THAT SITUATION, I DON'T KNOW THEM PERSONALLY, OBVIOUSLY, I THINK A LOT OF THE YOUNG MEN THAT THAT SITUATION EITHER KNEW WHAT WAS WRONG OR WERE UP SIT BUT DIDN'T SAY OR DO ANYTHING ABOUT IT AND NOT BECAUSE THEY WERE NECESSARILY IN AGREEMENT WITH THE MISOGYNY THAT WAS UNDERWAY, BUT BECAUSE THEY MADE A COST BENEFIT ANALYSIS THAT THE RISK TO THEIR STANDING AMONG THE GUYS, IF YOU WILL, WOULD BE HARMED BY TO GO SOMETHING.
AND THAT'S --BY THE WAY, THAT'S A FAILURE OF THEM AND ALSO A FAILURE OF THE EDUCATIONAL SYSTEM AND CONSTITUTIONAL LEADERSHIP NOT TO PROVIDE THE KIND OF EDUCATION AND TRAINING AROUND THIS SUBJECT MATTER THAT SOME OF US HAVE BEEN DOING FOR YEARS AND NO WORKS IN TERMS OF HELPING TO MOTIVATE YOUNG MEN TO FIGHT THROUGH THE PRESSURES AND DO SOMETHING CONSTRUCTIVE.
>> WHAT DOES IT SAY ABOUT THE FRATERNAL SYSTEM ITSELF AND THAT THESE MEN AS YOU MENTIONED --I MEAN, 50 OF THEM.
I CANNOT GET INTO THEIR MINDS OR THOUGHTS OR HOW THEY FELT IN THE MOMENT OR SUBSEQUENTLY.
BUT I WOULD IMAGINE IT IS A CULTURE HAVING GONE TO A UNIVERSITY HERE AS WELL, HAVING SEEN WHAT SORORITIES AND FRATERNITIES ARE ABOUT.
AND THAT IS DEFENDING YOUR FELLOW SORORITY --YOUR FRATERNITY BROTHERS.
>> I THINK THERE IS SOME MISPLACED UNDERSTANDLING OF WHAT LOYALTY AND BROTHERHOOD MEAN IN THIS CONTEXT.
I WOULD SAY YOU ARE BEING LOYAL TO YOUR FELLOW FRATERNITY BROTHER IF YOU CHALLENGE HIM WHEN HE IS ACTING ABUSIVELY, DOING SOMETHING HARMFUL TO WOMEN OR OTHER MEN THAT THAT IS AN ACT OF BROTHERHOOD AND LOYALTY NOT JUST AFTER THE FACT KIND OF CLOSING RANKS AND SOMEHOW PRETENDING YOU DIDN'T SEE WHAT YOU SAW OR DIDN'T KNOW WHAT WAS HAPPENING.
I THINK WE HAVE TO EXPAND OUR DEFINITION OF LOYALTY.
ALSO MOVE BEYOND THE YOUNG MEN.
ADULT MEN, WHERE ARE THEY IN THE SYSTEM?
NOT JUST AT CORNELL BUT IN UNIVERSITY SYSTEMS.
WHERE ARE THE ADULT MEN IN THE LIVES OF THESE YOUNG BOYS MEN?
WHAT'S MISSING IN THIS SOCIETY BUT IN THE WHOLE WORLD IS MEN'S LEADERSHIP ON THIS SUBJECT THAT WOMEN'S LEADERSHIP LIKE ANNIE CLARK IS EXEMPLARY AS A YOUNG LEADER.
BUT THERE IS WOMEN --WOMEN NO A MULTIRACIAL MULTI-ETHNIC SENSE HAVE BEEN AGITATING, SPEAKING OUT, ORGANIZING, PUSHING FOR LAWS AND REFORMS OF THE LAWS.
BUT NEN HAVE BEEN LARGELY SILENT OR IN THE BACK OF THE ROOM OR MAYBE SOME OF US HAVE BEEN ENCOURAGING WOMEN IN OUR LIVES OR POLITICALLY IN EITHER WAYS BEING SUPPORTIVE, BUT WE NEED A LOT MORE, YOU KNOW, OVERT AND EXPLICIT LEADERSHIP FROM MEN ON THIS SUBJECT MATTER BECAUSE IF WE ARE FOCUSING ON YOUNG GUYS, 20-YEAR-OLD GUYS UNDER INTENSE PRESSURE TO CON, IT'S NOT FAIR TO PUT THE PRESSURE ONLY ON THEM IF WE DON'T PUT THE PRESSURE ON ADULT MEN WHO ARE IN POSITIONS OF CULTURAL, INSTITUTIONAL AND POLITICAL LEADERSHIP MANY OF WHOM HAVE FAILED TO SPEAK UP THEMSELVES AND MODEL THE BEHAVIOR THAT WE EXPECT THE YOUNG GUYS TO EVIDENCE.
>> WHAT DOES THAT EDUCATION PROCESS ENTAIL ASIDE FROM MAKING YOUR CHILD, YOUR STUDENT, YOUR PEER PROMISE THAT, HEY, I WOULD NEVER DO SOMETHING LIKE THAT?
>> WELL, I MEAN, I AM ONE OF ARCHITECTS OF THE BYSTANDER APPROACH TO PREVENTION.
IT'S A WAY OF THINKING ABOUT HOW EVERYBODY IN A GIVEN PEER CULTURE CAN PLAY A CONSTRUCTIVE ROLE BEFORE, DURING OR AFTER AN FACT OF ASSAULT, IF A GUY TELLS A RAPE JOKE AND EVERYBODY LAUGHS ALONG OR NOBODY SAYS ANYTHING N A SENSE DOESN'T THE SILENCE.
OTHER GUYS IN A SENSE ENDORSE THE MISOGYNIST COMMENT?
HOW DO WE CHANGE THAT?
HOW DO WE INTERRUPT THAT PROCESS?
AND IN MALE PEER CULTURE, BYSTANDER APPROACH CAN BE WORKING WITH MEN, WOMEN, NONBINARY PEOPLE ESPECIALLY IN MALE CULTURE, BYSTANDER TRAINING IF DONE WELL IS TO GIVE YOUNG MEN A WAY OF TALKING ABOUT THE PRESSURES ON THEM TO CONFORM TO THE GROUP, THE GROUP NORMS AND IT'S ALSO TO IDENTIFY THE GUY WHO SAYS THIS IS NOT COOL, THIS IS NOT APPROPRIATE OR LET'S GET OUT OF HERE, SHE ZRUNG.
THAT GUY IS NOT SOME WIMP OR SIMP OR SOY BOY CUCK LIKE THE MEN HERE ONLINE IN THEIR ONLINE DIGITAL, YOU KNOW, AND SOCIAL MEDIA SPACE YOU HEAR MEN SPEAK UP AND SUPPORT WOMEN AS DEFINED AS LESS THAN A REAL MAN WHICH IS ABSURD BECAUSE IF YOU ARE A GUY WHETHER YOU'RE A YOUNG GUY OR OLDER GUY GOING ALONG WITH THE GUYS TAKES NOTHING SPECIAL WHATSOEVER.
WHAT TAKES SOMETHING SPECIAL IF YOU'RE A GUY, YOUNG OR OLD, IS WHEN YOUR FRIENDS ARE ACTING IN WAYS THAT ARE ABUSIVE OR MISOGYNIST IS SAYING, HEY, THAT'S NOT COOL, I AM NOT COOL WITH THAT.
THAT GUY IS ACTUALLY A LEADER.
THE BYSTANDER APPROACH IS A LEADERSHIP TRAINING AND IT'S A LEADERSHIP STRATEGY AND THE REASON WHY THAT'S IMPORTANT IS BECAUSE WE ARE CALLING MEN INTO GOOD BEHAVIOR RATHER THAN ALWAYS CALLING THEM OUT FOR BAD BEHAVIOR AND I THINK A LOT OF GUYS AGREE WITH WHAT I AM SAYING AND I THINK A LOT OF MEN ARE HORRIFIED BY THIS CASE.
BUT THEY ALSO RECOGNIZE MANY MEN RECOGNIZE THIS THEIR OWN PEER CULTURES MAYBE IT'S NOT AS EXTREME AS THE ALLEGATIONS IN THIS CASE, BUT THEY RECOGNIZE IN THEIR OWN PEER CULTURES THEY HAVE PARTICIPATED THROUGH THEIR SILENCE OR INACTION IN PERPETUATING THE AT TOWARDS AND BELIEFS THAT UNDERLIE THESE MORE EXTREME BEHAVE INJURIES.
>> ONE THING THAT STOOD OUT TO ME FROM WHAT ANNIE SAID WAS PICKING UP ON THIS LINE THAT WAS SAID ON THIS TEXT CHAIN ABOUT, OH, THE MYTH OR WHAT THEY SAID, THE LEGEND ABOUT THIS FRATERNITY OR WHAT HAPPENS HERE IS TRUE, MEANING THAT THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS GONE ON FOR YEARS.
WHAT HAS CHANGED IN YOUR VIEW FROM STUDYING THIS PARTICULAR AREA, IN THE AREA NOW OF SOCIAL MEDIA, THE MAN IS FEAR AND YOU PUT THAT NEXT TO WHAT ANNIE POINTED OUT THAT THIS STUFF'S BEEN GOING ON FOR A LONG TIME?
>> YEAH, I MEAN, AND I THINK WE HAVE BEEN FAILING -- THOSE OF US INSTITUTIONAL AND POLITICAL LEADERS HAVE BEEN FAILING A LONG TIME, IMPLEMENTING PROGRAMS, KIND OF TRAINING, KIND OF ACCOUNTABILITY THAT WE KNOW WORKS, THAT WE KNOW IS EFFECTIVE, AND THAT'S ON THE SHOULDERS OF THE LEADERS.
AGAIN, I DON'T THINK THAT THIS IS THE ONLY SOLUTION.
IN OTHER WORDS, I DON'T THINK EDUCATION AND TRAINING IS THE ONLY SOLUTION.
I THINK ACCOUNTABILITY, INSTITUTIONALLY AND POLITICALLY AND INDIVIDUALLY IS ALL IMPORTANT.
BUT, I MEAN, FOR EXAMPLE, WE KNOW THAT YOUNG MEN, I THINK, I SHOULDN'T SAY WE KNOW.
MY COLLEAGUES AND I KNOW THAT THE BEST TRAINING FOR YOUNG MEN AROUND SEXUAL ASSAULT PREVENTION IS GETTING THEM A ROOM AND HAVING AN HONEST CONVERSATION ABOUT WHAT IT MEANS TO BE A MAN AND HOW CULTURAL IDEAS ABOUT MANHOOD SHAPE THEIR BEHAVIORS, SHAPE THE NORMS THAT THEY OPERATE IN AND THAT THEY EITHER ENCOURAGE OR DISCOURAGE SPEAKING OUT OR CHALLENGING BEHAVIOR THAT THEY SEE AROUND THEM.
IF YOU DON'T HAVE THAT CONVERSATION, IF IT'S SUPERFICIAL, WE JUST TALK ABOUT, YOU KNOW, WHAT PEOPLE CAN DO WHEN THEY SEE A HARMFUL SITUATION AS OPPOSED TO WHAT CAN MEN DO WHO CONSIDER THEMSELVES GOOD PEOPLE WHEN OTHER MEN AROUND THEM ARE ACTING IN THESE WAYS, IF WE DON'T HAVE THOSE HONEST CONVERSATIONS I THINK WE ARE FAILING YOUNG PEOPLE.
WE ARE FAILING YOUNG WOMEN AND ALSO FAILING YOUNG MEN TO GIVE THEM THE OPPORTUNITY TO HAVE THESE HONEST CONVERSATIONS ESPECIALLY IN THE FACE OF AS YOU SAID THE MAN IS FEAR AND PORN CHURL WHICH ARE CONTINUALLY SHAPING REALLY TOXIC NORMS FOR MALE CULTURE AND MALE PEER CULTURE AND WITHOUT A COUNTERACTION OF THE PUBLIC SPACE AND THE EDUCATORS AND ADULTS, PARENTS AND OTHERS AND, YOU KNOW, WE ARE GIVING OVER --THE EDUCATION AND TRAINING OF OUR SONS AND DAUGHTERS TO THESE, YOU KNOW, CHARLATANS ON THE INTERNET.
IS THAT WHAT WE WANT?
I DON'T THINK SO.
>> NO, NOT AT ALL.
IT IS SO IMPORTANT TO HAVE MEN, BOYS A PART OF THESE CONVERSATIONS AT THE CRUX OF THESE CONVERSATIONS.
JACKSON KATZ, CO-FOUNDER OF MENTORS AND VIOLENCE PROTECTION, THANK YOU.
>> THANK YOU.
>> DOZENS OF PEOPLE ARE REPORTED TO BE IN ISOLATION AFTER A RUSSIAN LABORATORY WORKER AT AN INSTITUTE DEG INDICATED TO STUDYING THE PLAGUE AND OTHER INFECTIOUS DISEASES DIED.
THE 28-YEAR-OLD LAB TECHNICIAN AT THE IRKUTSK ANTI- PLAGUE RESEARCH ANTI-PLAGUE INSTITUTE INSTITUTE IN DIED AFTER BEING DIAGNOSIS INSIDE A PNEUMONIA OF UNKNOWN ORIGIN ACCORDING TO ROSPOTREBNADZOR, THE RUSSIAN AGENCY THAT HANDLES INFECTIOUS DISEASE.
HERE IS U. S. SECRETARY OF THE SECRETARY OF MARCO RUBIO.
>> IT'S INCUMBENT ON RUSSIA TO SHARE MORE INFORMATION WITH THE WORLD AND THE MORE WE CAN LEARN ABOUT WHAT HAPPENED THEN THE BETTER ALL OF US CAN BE IN A POSITION OF RESPONDING AND MAYBE THERE IS NOTHING THERE, MAYBE IT'S BIGGER THAN WE THOUGHT.
WE DON'T KNOW.
IT WOULD BE RECKLESS AT THIS MOMENT GIVEN THE LIMITED INFORMATION WE STILL HAVE TO SPECULATE ABOUT WHAT THIS MIGHT OR MIGHT NOT BE OR WHAT THIS IS OR ISN'T.
WE ARE WATCHING THIS VERY CLOSELY AND I THINK THE WHOLE WORLD IS WATCHING IT VERY CLOSELY.
DEPENDING WHAT WE LEARN ABOUT IT, WE WOULD KNOW HOW TO RESPOND.
>> DR.
ASHISH JHA IS A BIOSECURITY EXPERT AND WAS THE WHITE HOUSE'S COVID-19 RESPONSE COORDINATOR UNDER PRESIDENT BIDEN.
HE JOINS ME NOW FROM MASSACHUSETTS.
I KNOW THAT YOU HAVE HEARD A LOT FROM PEOPLE FOLLOWING A THREAD THAT YOU POSTED ON X AS NEWS STARTED COMING OUT HERE.
YOU HAVE DESCRIBED THIS AS A KIND OF INCIDENT THAT YOU WORRIED ABOUT FOR MANY YEARS.
PLAGUE WE SHOULD NOTE HAS NOT BEEN CONFIRMED AND NEITHER HAS A LAB LEAK.
WHAT MAKES THIS ESPECIALLY CONCERNING TO YOU AT THIS POINT WITH THE LIMITED INFORMATION THAT WE DO HAVE IN?
>> YEAH.
FIRST, THANKS FOR HAVING ME BACK.
AND YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY RIGHT.
WE HAVE LIMITED INFORMATION.
BUT THERE ARE FEATURES HERE THAT ARE CONCERNING.
OBVIOUSLY, IF THIS WAS PLAGUE, A YOUNG WOMAN DYING OF A HIGHLY TREATABLE DISEASE PRESUMEABLY SHE WOULD HAVE GOTTED ANTIBIOTICS RIGHT AWAY IS UNUSUAL.
HUNDREDS IN QUARANTINE IS UNUSUAL.
RUSSIA HAS A EXTENSIVE BIOWEAPONS PROGRAM.
OUR INTELLIGENCE AGENCIES HAVE PUT OUT YEAR AFTER YEAR THAT PROGRAM HAS BEEN GROWING SUBSTANTIALLY.
WE DON'T KNOW IN LAB WAS INVOLVED IN THAT PROGRAM.
THERE IS A LOT OF CONCERNS HERE FROM SENIOR PEOPLE INSIDE THE ADMINISTRATION AND PEOPLE LIKE ME WHO HAVE BEEN TRACKING THESE ISSUES CLOSELY TO SAY WE NEED TO LEARN MORE THAN WE KNOW RIGHT NOW.
>> THE W. H. O. SAID A RISK OF AN EPIDEMIC IN RUSSIA IS LOW.
RUSSIAN AUTHORITIES SAY THEY FOUND IN PATHOGEN, YET AS YOU NOTED THERE ARE REPORTS OF HUNDREDS UNDER QUARANTINE.
ARE THESE MEASURES UNUSUAL FOR A SUSPECTED PLAGUE CASE GIVEN THAT YOU SAID THERE ARE TREATMENTS THAT ARE QUITE SUCCESSFUL AVAILABLE, OR DO YOU THINK PERHAPS THESE ARE APPROPRIATE PRECAUTIONS JUST IN CASE AS IN THE INVESTIGATION IS STILL ONGOING?
>> HERE'S WHAT WE KNOW.
KNEWNOMIC PLAGUE, WHAT WE HEARD THIS WOMAN CONTRACTED --IF IT'S NOT TREATED, SHE SHOULD HAVE BEEN TREATED RIGHT AWAY, IT'S NOT SUPER CONTAGIOUS.
THAT'S THE GOOD NEWS.
THE IDEA THAT HUNDREDS ARE QUARANTINED IS UNUSUAL.
I DON'T THINK IT'S OUT OF AN ABUNDANCE OF QUESTION.
MAKES ME WONDER IF WE ARE GETTING THE FULL STORY.
THAT IS A RED FLAG WE NEED TO UNDERSTAND BETTER.
IF IT'S SOMETHING MORE SERIOUS, SOMETHING MORE TRANSMISSABLE, THEN, OBVIOUSLY, A BIGGER QUARANTINE WOULD MAKE SENSE BUT WE DON'T HAVE ANY INFORMATION FROM THE RUSSIANS AND W. H. O. SAYING THE RISK IS LOW, I DON'T FIND THAT REASSURING BECAUSE I DON'T KNOW WHAT THEY ARE BASING IT ON.
>> TRUE.
YOU NOTE THAT RUSSIA OWES THE WORLD TRANSPARENCY AT THIS POINT.
WHAT SPECIFIC INFORMATION WOULD YOU LIKE, WOULD YOU EXPECT FOR RUSSIA TO BE REVEALING AND SHARING AND THE FACT THAT THEY ARE NOT, WHAT IT DOES THAT SUGGEST TO YOU?
>> YEAH.
YEAH, MY VERY CLEAR VIEW IS RUSSIA SHOULD COME CLEAN ON ALL OF THIS.
AND WHEY WOULD BE ASKING IF I WERE AT THE WHITE HOUSE ARE, OBVIOUSLY, WHAT HAPPENED TO THIS WOMAN, WHAT KIND OF TESTING HAS BEEN DONE AND WHAT HAVE WE FOUND.
I WOULD WANT TO KNOW WHAT WENT ON IN THE LAB, THE WORK IN THE LAB, WHAT KIND OF INVESTIGATION HAS BEEN LAUNCHED AND THEN PERSONALLY I THINK RUSSIA SHOULD WELCOME IN INTERNATIONAL GROUP TO COME IN AND DO THEIR OWN INVESTIGATION.
I THINK THAT SHOULD BE THE NORM FOR OUTBREAKS LIKE THIS.
AGAIN THE CHANCES THE RUSSIANS WILL DO THIS ARE NOT AS HIGH AS I WISH THEY WERE, BUT THAT WOULD CREATE ASSURANCE FOR EVERYBODY.
SAYING EVERYTHING IS UNDER CONTROL AND IT'S ALL FINE, I DON'T KNOW.
CERTAINLY DOESN'T GIVE ME A LOT OF CONFIDENCE.
SEEMS MORE OPENNESS, TRANSPARENCY, MORE INFORMATION WOULD GIVE ME MORE CONFIDENCE.
>> HOW MUCH CAN OUTSIDE EXPERTS ESTABLISH INDEPENDENTLY AT THIS POINT GOING BACK TO WHAT YOU NOTE ABOUT THE W. H. O. AND THEIR ASSURANCES NOT BEING SO REASSURING GIVEN THAT THERE IS NO EXPLANATION AS TO WHY THEY DON'T THINK THIS IS GOING TO TURN INTO SOMETHING LARGER?
>> YEAH.
LOOK, I THINK IT'S ALMOST IMPOSSIBLE TO TELL FROM THE OUTSIDE.
AGAIN WE ARE ALL LOOKING AT THESE CLUES LIKE THEIR STORIES THAT THE FSB, INTERNAL SECURITY SERVICE IS INVOLVED.
IS THAT TRUE?
THAT WOULD BE UNUSUAL FOR A LAB ACCIDENT.
WE ARE ALL READING TEA LEAVES HERE AND THE EASIEST WAY TO DISPEL THIS IS FOR MORE OPENNESS FROM RUSSIA.
AND ALSO TO HAVE A REAL MULTI-NATIONAL TEAM GO IN AND EXAMINE WHAT HAPPENED, TALK TO PEOPLE, LOOK AT THE LAB RECORDS.
THE KIND OF INVESTIGATION I WISH WE HAD IN A ROBUST WAY IN CHINA IN THE WUHAN LAB.
THAT'S THE KIND OF INVESTIGATION THAT SHOULD BE HAPPENING RIGHT NOW.
IT WOULD ACTUALLY OFFER A LOT OF ASSURANCES IF WE HAD PEOPLE ON THE GROUND.
>> YOU CALLED FOR STRONGER BIODEFENSES IF WE NEVER LEARN THE TRUTH HERE.
WHAT IS MOST IMPORTANT PROTECTION WE SHOULD BE PUTTING PLACE RIGHT NOW?
>> YEAH.
SO THE REASON I SAID THIS REALLY CONCERNS ME IS THAT I HAVE NOT ACTUALLY WORRIED THAT SOME BAD ACTOR WILL PURPOSEFULLY USE A BIOWEAPON AGAINST US.
OBVIOUSLY, THAT COULD BE HAPPEN AND THAT WOULD BE TERRIBLISM WORRY ABOUT THE NUMBER OF LABS WORKING ON DANGEROUS PATHOGENS AROUND THE WORLD AND AN ACCIDENTAL LEAK FROM ONE OF THEM.
AND I DON'T KNOW IF THAT IS THE CASE HERE, THAT'S WHAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT.
WE NEED TO DO TWO THINGS.
MORE ON LAB SECURITY AROUND THE WORLD AROUND WORK WITH THE RUSSIANS AND CHINESE TO BUILD AN INTERNATIONAL COALITION.
ALSO ASSUME THAT SOME LAB LEAKS WILL HAPPEN, WE WILL HAVE OUTBREAKS AND WHAT WE ARE SEEING NOW NOT UNUSUAL.
WE NEED TO START BUILDING OUR OWN DEFENSE CAPABILITIES, IT BEGINS WITH STRONG BIOSURVEILLANCE, THE BIODETECTION CAPABILITIES AND THE ABILITY TO MAKE TREATMENTS AND VACCINES AND TESTS IF ONE THESE OUTBREAKS REALLY DOES REACH OUR SHORES.
>> WHERE ARE WE?
WHERE DO WE STAND ON DOING THAT NOW?
>> YEAH.
LOOK, WHEN I WAS IN THE WHITE HOUSE, THAT WAS BASICALLY MY PITCH TO PRESIDENT BIDEN.
I SAID, LOOK, AFTER THE PANDEMIC COMES TO AN END, END THE NATIONAL EMERGENCY, WE ARE GOING TO FOCUS ON BUILDING THAT CAPABILITY INSIDE THE U. S. GOVERNMENT.
WE STARTED PANDEMIC OFFICE.
WE MADE LARGE INVESTMENTS IN THE NEXT GENERATION OF VACCINES AGAINST RESPIRATORY INFECTIONS, BUILT UP OUR STOCKPILES.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE MOMENT SECRETARY KENNEDY CAME IN, HE TOOK ALL OF THAT DOWN AND THE PANDEMIC OFFICE SITS LARGELY EMPTY.
I AM VERY WORRIED ABOUT THE WAYS IN WHICH WE HAVE GONE BACKWARDS.
IF THERE IS A BAD OUTBREAK OF SOME ENGINEERED PATHOGEN FROM SOME LAB, WE WON'T HAVE TIME TO STOCK BACK UP AND NOT HAVE TIME TO STAFF BACK UP.
YOU HAVE TO DO THAT IN PEACETIME.
>> SO QUICKLY, ARE WE MORE VULNERABLE EXPOSED TODAY THAN WE WERE BEFORE 2000, BEFORE 2020?
>> I WOULD SAY THE RISK IS DRAMATICALLY HIGHER BEING FUELED BY ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE ACTUALLY MAKING IT EASIER FOR PEOPLE TO BUILD BIOLOGICAL AGENTS.
AND SO THE RISK HAS GONE UP SUBSTANTIALLY AND THE CAPABILITIES HAVE BEEN STRIPPED.
I WOULD SAY IN LOTS OF WAYS WE ARE MUCH MORE VULNERABLE TODAY THAN WE WERE IN 2019 OR 2020.
>> THAT IS A SOBERING POINT TO END ON BUT VERY IMPORTANT.
WE WILL STAY ON TOP OF THIS STORY AS I KNOW YOU WILL, DR.
JHA.
THANK YOU FOR JOINING THE PROGRAM.
>> THANK YOU.
> >> NOW COULD CONTENT CREATORS BE CHANGING THE WAY YOU VOTE.
ACCORDING TO "THE NEW YORK TIMES," ACCOUNTS BE BEING PAID.
UNLIKE TYPICAL CELEBRITY INFLUENCERS, THE AIM IS NOT TO GO VIRAL.
INSTEAD AT A FRACTION OF THE COST THEY HOPE TO BOMBARD THE INTERNET TO THE POINT THAT THEY CAN SHIFT PUBLIC OPINION.
JOURNALIST KEN BENSINGER LED THE INVESTIGATION AND HE JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN.
>> THANKS.
KEN BENSINGER, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
YOU WROTE A PIECE RECENTLY, AN ARMY OF PAID CREATORS.
IS CARPETING THE WEB WITH POLITICAL CONTENT.
YOU WRITE, THESE HIGH VOLUME SOCIAL MEDIA CAMPAIGNS REPRESENT THE NEW VANGUARD OF MODERN POLITICAL INFLUENCE SATURATING THE INTERNET WITH A TOPIC UNTIL IT IS ALL BUT INAVOIDABLE BUILT FROM DOZEN OR HUNDREDS OF POSTS FROM ACCOUNTS YOU HAVE NEVER HEARD OF.
THEY AMOUNT TO AN ECHO CHAMBER ON A BUDGET.
WHAT DID YOUR REPORTING FIND?
>> SO THIS IS SORT OF THE NEWEST ITERATION OF WHAT WE'RE SEEING IN THE WAY TO INFLUENCER VOTER BEHAVIOR AND POLITICAL OPINION AND AS YOU MENTIONED FOR A LONG TIME WE HAVE SEEN THIS -- THE IDEA THAT SOCIAL MEDIA CAN BE USED TO HELP THAT.
BUT WHAT WE NORMALLY SEE ARE BIG FAMOUS INFLUENCERS BROUGHT IN TO BACK CANDIDATES OR PUSH IDEAS.
WHAT I DISCOVERED WAS THAT THERE IS THIS OTHER WAY THAT'S EMERGED AND IT'S AIDED BY TECHNOLOGY AND BETTER UNDERSTANDING OF SOCIAL MEDIA ALGORITHMS.
AND IT ENLISTS INSTEAD OF ONE OR TWO PROMINENT SOCIAL MEDIA INFLUENCERS DOZENS, HUNDREDS OR THOUSANDS OF ACCOUNTS THAT WORK IN SYMPHONY IN A COORDINATED FASHION TO PUSH AN IDEA, A CANDIDATE, A POLITICAL MOVEMENT.
AND THEY DO IT INSTEAD OF SORT OF TRYING TO RE -- VIRALITY BY ONE ACCOUNT, THEY DO IT BY THE THEORY THAT YOU SORT OF SPRAY, YOU SORT OF IMAGINE LIKE CROP DUSTING OR SOMETHING WHERE YOU ARE SPRAYING IT OVER AS MUCH OF THE INTERNET AS YOU CAN THE SAME MESSAGE AND YOU CAN DO THAT ON THE CHEAP.
THE GOAL ISN'T NECESSARILY ANY OF THESE POSTS GO VIRAL, BUT THEY ARE SO PERVASIVE THAT THEY ARE SO EVERYWHERE, PEOPLE ARE BOUND TO SEE THEM IN THEIR FEEDS.
AND, YOU KNOW, THAT HAS ANOTHER BENEFIT OF NOT COSTING NEARLY AS MUCH MONEY AS BIG INFLUENCERS.
THIS IS INCREASINGLY POPULAR IN THE POLITICAL WORD OF USING THIS APPROACH.
>> WE WILL TALK ABOUT THE MONEY.
BUT FIRST YOU BREAK THIS DOWN INTO A COUPLE OF CATEGORIES.
THERE IS THE USER GENERATED CONTENT, ME LOOKING AT MY PHONE, SAYING SOMETHING, MY OPINION, SHARING SOMETHING, RIGHT, AND YOU TALK ABOUT CLIPPING.
SOMEWHAT IS THIS INDUSTRY OF CLIPPING ABOUT?
HOW DOES IT WORK?
>> CLIPPING, YOU MENTIONED UGC, AS YOU DESCRIBED IT, CLIPPING IS I THINK WE ALMOST NEVER SEE THE CREATOR'S FACE OR THEIR IDENTITY.
INSTEAD, WHAT THEY ARE DOING IS THEY ARE LITERALLY MAKING CLIPS FROM EXISTING VIDEO THAT THEY ARE SUPPLIED WITH, FIND ON THEIR OWN AND TAKE FIVE MINUTES OR TWO MINUTES OR TWO HOURS AND CLIP IT INTO A 30 SECOND SOUND BITE OR MAKE STATIC POSTS JUST AN IMAGE SOMETIMES WITH TEXT ON IT OR MUSIC PLAYING OVER IT THAT MAKES A SINGLE POLITICAL POINT.
AND THAT CLIPPED IMAGE GOES UP ON THE INTERNET AND THEY MIGHT USE TEN DIFFERENT ACCOUNTS TO PUT UP THE SAME IMAGE OR SAME CLIP.
OTHER ACCOUNTS IN THE SAME PAID CAMPAIGN MIGHT EITHER USE IDENTICAL OR SIMILAR DLIPS BASED ON THE SAME SOURCE MATERIAL TO PUT IT OUT THERE.
AND SO SOMETIMES THEY ARE ORGANIZED, SOMETIMES IT'S COORDINATE AND AND THERE MIGHT BE LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF POSTS THIS CLIPPING CAMPAIGN THAT'S ORGANIZED BY A COMPANY THAT SPECIALIZES IN CLIPPING AND THEY RACK THIS AND SOMETIMES USE AI TO IDENTIFY AND PAY THE PEOPLE FOR THE POSTS THEY ARE MAKING.
>> IF THERE ARE COMPANIES THAT ARE DOING THIS AND ENGAGING IN THIS, THEY MUST BE ABLE TO SELL AN IDEA OR A VALUE PROPOSITION, SAY YOU OR I ARE IN A POLITICAL CAMPAIGN, HOW MUCH WOULD IT COST US TO GET A BIG INFLUENCER TO SORT OF SAY WHATEVER IT IS WE WANT THEM TO SAY VERSUS HAVING A CLIPPING, YOU KNOW, TROVE OF PEOPLE DO THIS OR NO NAME PEOPLE SPREAD OUR MESSAGE?
IS IT VALUABLE?
>> I THINK THAT'S GOOD AND GROWING BODY OF EVIDENCE TO SUGGEST IT IS A BETTER OR AT LEAST AS GOOD MELANIA TRUMP YOU HAD AS HIRING THE BIG INFLUENCER.
ONE EXAMPLE WOULD BE SOME OF THE STUFF WE SAW IN THE CAMPAIGNS IN THE PRIMARIES THIS YEAR.
WE SAW FOR EXAMPLE TOM STEYER RUNNING FOR GOVERNOR OF CALIFORNIA WAS PAYING INFLUENCERS A TON OF MONEY AND IT WAS ONE INSTANCE HE PAID AN INFLUENCER $400,000 WHICH IS A TON TO PUT UP A BUNCH OF POSTS.
HE PAID ANOTHER INFLUENCER $25,000 TO PRODUCE A SINGLE POST AND THAT POST GOT SOMETHING LIKE 5,000 OR 10,000 COMMENTS ON IT OR LIKES, RIGHT.
BUT THEN ANOTHER PERSON RUNNING IN CALIFORNIA SPENCER PRATT WHO RAN FOR MAYOR OF LOS ANGELES, HE HAD A CLIPPING COMPANY AND HE PAID $30,000 FOR A CLIPPING CAMPAIGN AND THAT CAMPAIGN ACCORDING TO THE COMPANY THAT DID THE CLIPPING GENERATED 50 MILLION PIECES OF ENGAGEMENT FOR HIM.
>> WOW.
>> IT'S A MUCH LARGER SCALE AND A SMALLER AMOUNT OF MONEY.
AND ALSO THERE IS AN IMPORTANT ELEMENT OF THIS, WHICH IS THAT THERE IS THIS THING THAT PEOPLE WANT NOW, THIS AUTHENTICITY FEELING.
OBVIOUSLY, NONE OF THIS AUTHENTIC.
IT'S COORDINATED AND PLANNED.
BUT WHEN YOU SEE A FANCY INFLUENCER WHO YOU KNOW BECAUSE THEY DO TRAVEL OR SOMETHING OR THEY DO BEAUTILY SAY I REALLY LOVE THIS CANDIDATE, THAT CAN OFTEN HAVE THE SMELL OF INAUTHENTICITY, BECAUSE THEY DON'T TALK ABOUT POLITICS AND SUDDENLY THEY ARE TALKING ABOUT POLITICS N CALIFORNIA THEY HAVE TO DISCLOSE THAT.
USUALLY THEY DON'T.
EVEN STILL IT DOESN'T SMELL QUITE RIGHT.
BUT A BUNCH OF NO NAMES SAYING THEY LIKE THAT CANDIDATE OR PUTTING UP POSTS SAYING THAT CANDIDATE GREAT CAN MAKE PEOPLE BELIEVE IT IS REAL, MAKE THAT PERSON JUST GENUINELY LIKES THE CANDIDATE.
WHY WOULD A PERSON WITH A COUPLE HUNDRED FOLLOWERS SPEND THEIR TIME BOOSTING SOMEBODY?
IT SEEMS TO PASS THE SMELL TEST EVEN THOUGH IT PROBABLY SHOULDN'T.
>> TELL ME WHY, IF YOU OR I WERE PAYING AN INFLUENCER OR A PERSON TO PUSH A PRODUCT TECHNICALLY SOME OF THE SOCIAL MEDIA PLATFORMS SAY THAT YOU HAVE TO HAVE THE WORD ADVERTISEMENT ON IT.
BUT IF IT'S POLITICAL SPEECH, THAT DOESN'T APPLY?
>> YEAH, IT'S "A STRANGE LOOP" HOLE IN THE WAY THIS STUFF IS REGULATED.
YOU ARE EXACTLY RIGHT.
SO THERE ARE TWO AGENCY FEDERAL AGENCIES THAT PLAY -- REGULATE THIS AND NEITHER DO.
ONE IS THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION AND IT'S THE ONE THAT SAYS IF YOU PROMOTE TOOTHPASTE OR A SUPPLEMENT OR MOVIE OR ANYTHING ON SOCIAL MEDIA FOR MONEY, YOU HAVE TO DISCLOSE IT.
THAT'S A PAID AD.
AND THEY ARE THE AGENCY IN CHARGE OF THAT.
THEY HAVE A SPECIFIC EXEMPTION FOR POLITICAL SPEECH, THEY SAY THEY DON'T REGULATE POLITICAL SPEECH AND DON'T EXPECT PEOPLE MAKING POLITICAL POINTS TO FOLLOW FTC RULES OF DISCLOSURE.
THE OTHER AGENCY THE FEDERAL COLLECTION COMMISSION REGULATES POLITICAL STUFF AND WE HAVE SEEN THAT BECAUSE WHEN YOU SEE A TV AD OR RADIO SPOT OR BILLBOARD YOU SEE THAT FINE PRINT ON THE BOTTOM THAT SAYS PAID FOR BY CANDIDATE XYZ.
THEY DON'T SAY THAT AND DON'T HAVE SUCH A ROLE WHEN IT COMES TO SOCIAL MEDIA AND THERE HAVE BEEN MULTIPLE ATTEMPTS TO PASS LAWS AND REGULATIONS WITHIN THE FTC THAT WOULD REGULATE THAT KIND OF SPEECH AND REQUIRE THOSE KINDS OF DISCLOSURES ON SOCIAL MEDIA BUT THEY HAVE NEVER EVEN COME UP FOR PUBLIC REVIEW LET ALONE A VOTE.
SO NOTHING EVER HAPPENED.
I THINK IT'S WORD ADDING THERE IS NOW FOR THE FIRST TIME A BILL IN CONGRESS THAT IS BOTH IN THE SENATE AND THE HOUSE THAT WOULD FOR THE FIRST TIME MANDATE THAT THESE THINGS BE DISCLOSED.
WE WILL SEE WHETHER CONGRESS IS WILLING TO PASS THAT.
BUT THERE IS LEGISLATION ON THE TABLE TO ADDRESS THE LOOPHOLE.
>> GIVE MEAN IDEA OF WHAT THESE ADS ARE LIKE BECAUSE WHAT YOU'RE REPORTING IS THAT YOU MAY NOT KNOW AT ALL THAT THERE IS A SPECIFIC CANDIDATE INVOLVED.
THEY ARE NOT SAYING VOTE FOR THIS PERSON, THIS OTHER PERSON IS HORRIBLE, RIGHT?
WHAT ARE THEY TRYING TO DO AND HOW IS IT BENEFICIAL?
>> WHEN YOU BOMBARD SOCIAL MEDIA WITH A POINT OF VIEW OVER AND OVER AGAIN, IT BEGINS TO SEEM NORMAL, NORMALIZED AND THEN BECOMES CLOSER TO THE CENTER OF CONVERSATION.
AND SO THESE KIND OF CLIPPING AND UGC CAMPAIGNS ARE REALLY GOOD AT GETTING MORE AND MORE PEOPLE TO THINK ABOUT THINGS THEY HADN'T THOUGHT ABOUT, THINK THEY ARE NORMAL AND TO INTERNALIZE THEM IN A SUBTLE KIND OF SUBLIMINAL FASHION.
IT ALSO IS REALLY GOOD AT GENERATING MEDIA COVERAGE.
IT'S ENOUGH --IF ENOUGH POSTS ARE TALKING ABOUT SOMETHING THEN ALMOST INEVITABLY THE MEDIA WILL TALK ABOUT IT AS WELL WHICH AGAIN UNDERSCORES THE IDEA IS IT NORMALIZED.
IT'S NOT A FRINGE THING, IT'S NORMAL.
SO ON THE LEFT, FOR EXAMPLE, THERE IS A TON OF PAID POSTINGS ABOUT AFFORDABILITY.
>> THIS WHY EVERYTHING FEELS SO MUCH HARDER TO AFFORD RIGHT NOW.
IT'S NOT LIKE ONE BILL WENT UP BY $500.
IT'S $20 MORE HERE, $10 MORE THERE.
>> THAT'S BECAUSE DEMOCRATS AND PROGRESSIVES BELIEVE THAT AFFORDABILITY IS A WINNING ISSUE FOR THEM IN THE MIDTERM ELECTIONS COMING UP AND THEY WANT PEOPLE OUT THERE THINKING ABOUT HOW MUCH EVERYTHING COSTS BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE WHEN MEME THINK GAS IS TOO EXPENSIVE OR EGGS OR HOUSING IS TOO EXPENSIVE, THEY ARE LIKELY TO VOTE FOR CHANGE, VOTE AGAINST THE REPUBLICAN PARTY AND FOR DEMOCRATS BECAUSE THEY WANT TO CHANGE WHO IS IN POWER.
YOU WILL SEE INFLUENCERS ONLINE IN CLIPS AND IN DIRECT AND CAMERA VIDEOS COMPLAINING OUR EXPENSIVE THINGS ARE WITHOUT MENTIONING A CANDIDATE OR RACE.
ON THE ITEM YOU SEE SIMILAR THINGS U WILL SEE GROUPS PUSHING FOR, FOR EXAMPLE, SUPPORT OF THE WAR IN IRAN BECAUSE THEY WILL EMPHASIZE BAD THINGS ABOUT IRAN.
YOU WILL SEE I HAVE SEEN CLIPPING CAMPAIGNS SUPPORTING REPUBLICANS EN MASSE BY BEING TOLD PUT OUT ANYTHING THAT IS CRITICAL OF DEMOCRATS AND THEY JUST ENCOURAGE PEOPLE TO THINK DEMOCRATS ARE BAD AT LARGE.
SO THAT'S THE KIND OF WAY THESE RACES --THESE PARTICULAR CAMPAIGNS ARE BEING ORGANIZED IS JUST TO GET PEOPLE THINKING ABOUT A THEME OR TOPIC.
>> WHEN YOU TRIED TO VERIFY THE IDENTITIES OF SOME OF THESE PEOPLE BEHIND THESE CAMPAIGNS, WHAT DID YOU YOU FIND?
>> THEY ARE HARD TO TRACK DOWN.
THEY ARE BURIED DEEP BENEATH LAYERS OF CAMPAIGN FINANCE STATEMENTS THAT MAKE IT ALMOST IM POSSIBLE TO SEE WHO IS PAYING FOR THEM OR PAID BY ADVOCACY GROUPS THAT DON'T HAVE TO REPORT PUBLICLY THESE EXPENDITURES.
WE FOUND SOME INSTANCES OF -- THE MAIN WAY IS BY GOING THROUGH THE ONLINE MARKETPLACES.
MARKETPLACE ON THE INTERNET AND ON PLACES LIKE DISCORD YOU CAN ACTUALLY ESSENTIALLY TELL THEM THAT YOU ARE A CREATOR AND LOOK AT WHAT JOBS ARE AVAILABLE AND THERE ARE MARKETPLACES WITH LITERALLY THOUSANDS OF LISTINGS FOR PAID OPPORTUNITIES AS CREATORS TO CREATE CONTENT AND MOST OF IT IS COMMERCIAL BUT SOME IS POLITICAL IN NATURE.
SO WE FOUND, FOR EXAMPLE, CAMPAIGNS AGAINST AI DATA CENTERS.
WE ALSO FOUND CAMPAIGNS FOR AI DATA CENTERS.
WE FOUND CAMPAIGNS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING.
WE FOUND OTHER CAMPAIGNS THAT APPEAR TO BE PAID FOR BY UTILITY COMPANIES THAT ARE UNDER THEIR --SORT OF DOWNPLAYING THE CONCERNS ABOUT GLOBAL WARMING.
WE FOUND CAMPAIGNS HAVING TO DO WITH ABORTION RIGHTS AND OTHER CAMPAIGNS ON THE OTHER SIDE OF THE PRO- LIFE SIDE OF THINGS AS WELL WHEN THE QUESTION OF WHETHER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S EXECUTIVE ORDER ABOUT MAIL-IN BALLOTS WAS GOING TO CHANGE THE WAY THE ELECTION WAS HELD, INSTANTLY POPPED UP CAMPAIGNS TRYING TO PAY PEOPLE TO GO OUT THERE AND SAY, YOU KNOW, WE LOVE VOTING BY MAIL, IT'S A GOOD THING.
THAT'S A GOOD EXAMPLE IT DIDN'T SPECIFICALLY MENTION PRESIDENT TRUMP.
THEY JUST SAY VOTING BY MAIL IS A GREAT THING AND IT'S GREAT FOR VETERANS.
WE FOUND TONS OF THOSE KINDS OF THINGS AND SOMETIMES THEY MENTION SPECIFIC GROUPS THAT ARE FUNDING IT.
MOST OF THE TIMES THEY DO NOT.
>> WHAT IS AN AD LOOK LIKE IF YOU ARE SOMEBODY TRYING TO MAKE AN EXTRA FEW BUCKS AND YOU ARE WILLING TO DO WHATEVER, WHAT ARE THEY ASKING YOU TO DO?
>> SOME ARE EXTREMELY SPECIFIC AND SOME ARE PRETTY VAGUE.
YOU KNOW, OFTEN YOU WILL SEE IF YOU ENTER ONE OF THESE ADS OR JOB OPPORTUNITIES THEY WILL HAVE A THING CAUGHT CREATOR BRIEF.
IT'S LIKE A INSTRUCTION MANUAL FOR THE CAMPAIGN.
HERE IS THE GOAL OF THIS CAMPAIGN.
HERE IS WHAT WE WANT --WHAT WE WANT YOU TO SAY.
HERE IS WHAT YOU SHOULDN'T SAY.
HERE IS ALL THE MATERIAL YOU CAN USE TO INCORPORATE INTO THE POSTS YOU PUT UP.
SOME OF THEM SAY WE WANT YOU TO USE YOUR ACCOUNT AND HIT YOUR OWN FOLLOWERS.
OTHERS EXPLICITLY SAY CREATE A NEW ACCOUNT AND HERE IS HOW WE WANT YOU TO WARM IT UP TO HIT THE RIGHT PLACE IN THE ALGORITHM AND GET THE RIGHT FOLLOWERS AND RIGHT PEOPLE'S ATTENTION.
THEY CAN BE VERY EXPLICIT THAT WAY.
ONE WAS SPECIFICALLY THAT, PUT TOGETHER BY A PROGRESSIVE GROUP THAT IS REALLY FOCUSED ON SORT OF THEY CALL IT --THEY SAY THEY ARE TRYING TO FIGHT BACK AGAINST THE RIGHT WING ECHO CHAMBER BY CREATING A LEFT WING ECHO CHAMBER AND INSTRUCTIONS HOW TO CREATE ACCOUNTS THEY SAID GAME --I THINK THE QUOTE WAS GAME THE ALGORITHM TO HIT THE MOST POSSIBLE PEOPLE.
ONE THE INSTRUCTIONS THAT WAS INTERESTING THEY WERE TELLING PEOPLE TO BEFORE THEY EVEN MADE ANY POSTS FOR THE NEW ACCOUNT GO FIND A PROGRESSIVE LEFT WING ACCOUNT THAT THEY LIKED, GO ON THEM AND HIT THE LIKE BUTTON AND LEAVE COMMENTS ON THOSE AND BECAUSE THEY BELIEVE THAT THAT WOULD ALREADY TEACH THE ALGORITHM THIS NEW ACCOUNT WAS OF A CERTAIN ILK AND WHEN THEY PUT A POST IT WOULD DIRECT THEIR POSTS TO THE RIGHT PEOPLE.
>> IS IT LUCRATIVE?
>> I THINK IT CAN BE.
WE HAVE SEEN CASES OF INDIVIDUAL CREATORS MAKING $100,000 BY DOING MULTIPLE CAMPAIGNS.
A LOT OF TIMES THE INDIVIDUAL CAMPAIGNS ARE CAPPED.
SO YOU WILL --YOU CAN MAKE MONEY QUICKLY BUT YOU HIT A $1,500 OR $3,000 OR $5,000 CAP AND THEN THAT ACCOUNT CAN'T MAKE ANY MORE MONEY.
THE SOLUTION IS EITHER TO HIT THAT AND MOVE ON TO THE NEXT CAMPAIGN OR TO CREATE MULTIPLE ACCOUNTS AND HOPE TO HIT THE CAP IN EACH OF THEM.
I THINK SOME PEOPLE REALLY MAKE LOFT MONEY OFF OF THIS BY DOING MANY, MANY, MANY CAMPAIGNS AT ONCE USING MANY, MANY ACCOUNTS.
YOU COULD MADGE AN PER PERSON AT THEIR DESK RUNNING 20 DIFFERENT THINGS AT ONCE URNLTS ALSO IN YOUR REPORTING POINT OUT CREATORS PRESENTING THEMSELVES AS BEING FROM ONE PLACE WHEN THEY ARE NOT BECAUSE THEY ARE IN IT FOR THE DOLLARS, NOT NECESSARILY FOR THE TRUTH.
>> YEAH, THAT'S RIGHT.
IF A CAMPAIGN IS ABOUT --WE HAD AN EXAMPLE ABOUT AFFORDABILITIABILITY IN TEXAS AND YOU'RE A CONTENT CREATOR AND YOU WANT TO MAKE $1,500, $2,000, $3,000, WHATEVER IT MAY BE, YOU DON'T LIVE IN TEXAS, OFTEN THERE IS NOT REAL VET TO GO FIND OUT WHETHER YOU ARE IN TEXAS.
YOU CAN PRESENT YOURSELF AND SAY, YES, I AM FROM TEXAS AND DO A VIDEO SITTING YOUR CAR OR A CLIPPING CAMPAIGN WHERE THEY CAN'T SEE YOU CLAIMING YOU ARE FROM TEXAS AND PUT IT OUT THERE.
IT'S NOT AUTHENTIC, IT'S NOT ACCURATE AND HONEST, BUT THERE ARE VERY FEW CONTROLS TO PREVENT THAT.
I AM SIT HEARING RIGHT NOW IN NEW YORK CITY.
I COULD SAY I AM FROM OKLAHOMA OR SOMETHING AND LITTLE PEOPLE WOULDN'T KNOW.
THE NEXT LEVEL IS THAT THE PERSON MAY NOT EVEN BE IN THE U. S. , CAMPAIGN MAY BE ABOUT THE U. S. , BUT THE PERSON DOING IT MIGHT BE IN NIGERIA OR IN THE PHILIPPINES OR KIND OF ANYWHERE AROUND THE WORLD.
>> IF TAKES "NEW YORK TIMES" REPORTERS SOME TIME AND EFFORT TO FIGURE OUT WHAT'S REAL AND WHAT'S NOT, WHAT IS THE END USER SUPPOSED TO DO?
>> WE CAN HOPE THE END USER IS SOMEWHAT AWARE THIS IS A THING AND THIS IS OUT THERE AND THEY SHOULD BE SKEPTICAL ABOUT WHAT THEY SEE ON THE INTERNET, NOT JUST BELIEVE EVERYTHING THAT FLASHES ACROSS THEIR SCREEN AS THEY ARE SCROLLING.
BUT THERE IS NOT A LOT OF TOOLS AVAILABLE TO THE END USER TO PROVE TO ONE WAY OR ANOTHER, RIGHT.
IF A DARK MONEY GROUP OR A CHARITY THAT'S NOT PAYING FOR --EXCUSE ME, 501(C)(3) NOT PAYING FOR SPECIFIC ACTION WANTS TO PUSH SOMETHING, THEY NOT GOING TO BE REGULATED, NOT RULES ABOUT WHAT THEY SAY, AND THE PUBLIC IS STILL -- WILL NEVER KNOW THAT'S ACTUALLY JUST AN INFLUENCER CAMPAIGN RATHER THAN SOMEONE'S LEGITIMATE OPINION.
>> CALIFORNIA AND TEXAS HAVE TRIED AND THEY HAVE SOME STATE LEVEL RULES.
I MEAN, ARE THOSE ENOUGH IN TERMS OF PROTECTION OR, I MEAN, INTERNET GOES ACROSS STATE LINES, SO DOES THIS REALLY MATTER?
>> IT'S A GOOD START.
CALIFORNIA JUST BEEFED UP ITS RULES A LITTLE BIT MORE.
GOVERNOR NEWSOM UP I GUESS IN SEPTEMBER, HE SIGNED A LAW THAT WOULD PENALIZE INFLUENCERS AND NOT JUST CAMPAIGNS FOR NOT FOLLOWING THE STATE'S RULES ABOUT DISCLOSURE.
SO NOW INFLUENCERS IF THEY DON'T PROPERLY DISCLOSE PAID POSTS WILL PAY FINES UP TO $5,000 PER POST AND THEY COULD IN THEORY BE PROSECUTED FOR MISDEMEANORS AND PAY MUCH LARGER FINES.
SO THAT'S TEETH WHICH DIDN'T EXIST BEFORE AND THERE IS THE HOPE AMONG THOSE BEHIND IT THAT THE FEAR OF THAT KIND OF RETRIBUTION WILL CHANGE THEIR BEHAVIOR.
BUT YOU RAISE A GOOD POINT WHICH IS IT'S ONLY ONE STATE OUT OF 50.
SECONDS, IT'S BLURRY REALLY QUICK.
IF THE INFLUENCER IS IN, YOU KNOW, OHIO AND THEY ARE MAKING POSTS ABOUT CALIFORNIA ARE THEY AWARE OF THE LAW?
WILL CALIFORNIA BE ABLE TO ACTUALLY ENFORCE IT WHEN THE PERSON IS OUT OF THE STATE?
IT'S UNTESTED AND NOT VERY CLEAR.
WE DON'T REALLY KNOW.
AND FEDERAL RULE WOULD ALSO HELP A LOT BUT WOULDN'T RESOLVE COMPLETELY BECAUSE THE CALIFORNIA AND TEXAS LAW ONLY APPLY TO CALIFORNIA AND TEXAS STATE RACES.
A FEDERAL LAW WOULDN'T APPLY F THERE IS A GOVERNOR RACE SOMEWHERE, UNLESS THAT STATE HAS A RULE, THERE IS NOT GOING TO BE ANYTHING TO PREVENT PEOPLE FROM HIDING THE FACT THAT THEY ARE PAID.
>> INVESTIGATIVE REPORTER FROM "THE NEW YORK TIMES" KEN BENSINGER, THANK YOU FOR YOUR TIME.
>> A GREAT PLEASURE, THANK YOU.
>> AND FINALLY, WHAT IF YOU COULD SEE ONE THE MYSTERIES OF THE UNIVERSE THROUGH A BLOCK OF ICE?
WELL, THIS YEAR'S NOBEL PRIZE WINNER FOR PHYSICS HAS MADE THAT POSSIBLE.
BELGIAN PROFESSOR EARNED THE PRIZE FOR HIS WORK DETECTING COSMIC GHOST PARTICLES, NEUTRINOS USING A LARGE CHUNK OF ANT ARC I CAN ICE.
THE PARTICLES IN THE STARS, PLANETS, RIGHT DOWN TO THE AIR WE BREATHE.
BUT UNTIL NOW, THEY HAVE BEEN IMPOSSIBLE TO SEE.
RESEARCH ANTI-PLAGUE INSTITUTERS BELIEVE THE DISCOVERY WILL OFFER CLUES TO HOW OUR UNIVERSE EVOLVED.
SO COOL.
AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COUP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT SIGN UP FOR THE NEWSLETTER AT PBS.
ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING AND GOODBYE FROM NEW YORK.