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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to “Amanpour and Company.” Here’s what’s coming up.
Trump and Putin meet in Alaska, but can any amount of talking put an into Russia’s invasion of Ukraine? We bring you a special program, a look at the
big picture, the history and what’s at stake.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Make a peace in Ukraine. This is how our plan. That what we really want and that what we will try to do.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: President Volodymyr Zelenskyy, in his own words, on what it will take to stop the bloodshed.
Then —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DMITRY PESKOV, KREMLIN SPOKESPERSON: It’s a serious separation with serious purpose.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: — the Kremlin’s view. A rare conversation with Putin’s right- hand man on his reasons for invading Ukraine in the first place.
Plus, American investor, Bill Browder talks to Walter Isaacson about Russia’s end game.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I’m Christiane Amanpour in London.
Donald Trump said he’d end the Ukraine war before even taking office, but the war is still raging and the president is still struggling with how to
stop it. Meeting Vladimir Putin face-to-face in Alaska is one of his ways. It’s the first such summit since Putin’s full-scale invasion. Notably
absent though is Ukraine’s president Volodymyr Zelenskyy. But in virtual talks ahead of the Alaska meeting, he said Trump agreed on the need for a
ceasefire first. Trump also threatens severe consequences if Putin isn’t serious.
Since Zelenskyy will not be at the meeting, as we said, we want to devote this program to Ukraine’s position, remarkably consistent from the
beginning, as you’ll hear when we spoke at the Munich Security Conference in February, just after Zelenskyy had spoken to Trump on the phone.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: You, after your phone call with President Trump, said that you did not hear enough detail to make this a peace plan. Can you just
elaborate what you meant by that?
ZELENSKYY: Can I speak Ukrainian?
AMANPOUR: No.
ZELENSKYY: OK. Don’t pressure on me. OK. So, yes, we had really a long conversation with the president of the United States. Not first one and not
last, I’m sure. I mean, really between us. I’m not sure that by phone we can manage all the plan, all security guarantees with all the details
because, you know, devil in details. Yes. And we know where is this devil in what country now.
Yes, that’s why we have to stop him, to stop Putin. And it’s very important for me. That’s why we, the atmosphere of the — our discussion is good. But
really, it’s always good. Yes, but we need urgent, very concrete steps. And I think we have to work on it. Our teams — well, we began, but I think
that we have to start immediately to do more deep decisions.
AMANPOUR: We’ll get into that in a moment, but you did also have a separate conversation with Vice President J. D. Vance. We have to bring up
that in 2022, J. D. Vance said he didn’t — and this is a quote, “I don’t care what happens to Ukraine one way or another.”
Do you feel that he’s changed, that the Trump administration and the actors you’re dealing with understand what’s at stake?
ZELENSKYY: I’ll be honest, we have to work on it. All of us, not only me. Me is not enough, really. I think we have to work, because I think that,
you know, we — together in Europe, the war is in Europe, and America is far from the invasion. And I think that we need to share more details,
because, to my mind, there are a lot of different voices around new American administration. And I’m not sure that all these voices on our
side.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, Trump was asked whether he trusted Putin, and he sort of basically ended up saying, on this, I do. But he has also, said
that — and frankly, it’s quite difficult to extract what all the different administration officials have been saying.
On the one hand, potentially that, you know, maybe Ukraine had a responsibility for this war. Maybe Ukraine can’t ever expect to get back,
it’s unrealistic according to the defense secretary, its territory. Maybe Ukraine will be safe and independent. Maybe it’ll be part of Russia. Do you
understand what America’s position is?
ZELENSKYY: Yes.
AMANPOUR: Which is?
ZELENSKYY: I think, to my mind, they are preparing atmosphere for their dialogue.
AMANPOUR: For their dialogue? Which will be?
ZELENSKYY: For the dialogue between Trump and Putin. And I think this is – – I mean, this is up to them, but they can discuss everything they want, but not about Ukraine without us. And that’s why, in this case — that’s
why, especially in this case, I think it’s a little bit dangerous. That’s why I said that we need to talk more with the president, and to talk more
with his people, with his teams.
We had good conversation, and I think that I opened some new details for vice president. That’s why I said I — we need, it’s not waste time. It’s
really very important, I think, diplomatic investment for the future just and lasting peace for Ukraine.
AMANPOUR: You said Putin doesn’t want peace. I mean, you just said it loud and clear here.
ZELENSKYY: Yes, it’s true. It’s true.
AMANPOUR: So, what is the dialogue? And have you convinced the Americans that, A, Ukraine has to be at the table, and B, I guess the Europeans have
to convince them that they have to be —
ZELENSKYY: On all of the levels we directly — yes, very directly, send these messages that we have to prepare security guarantees like a main part
of the stopping, putting and stop this war. And very important, essential. And we said that it can’t be without us, and that’s why I don’t know. If we
don’t have — from my point of view, if we don’t have for today common plan, it means for me that United States doesn’t have. Because if they have
something, it’s not about us.
First of all, we have to make a plan with you, I said to the president. It was the day when he had phone calls with Putin and with me. And first with
him, and then with us.
AMANPOUR: And how did that sit with you?
ZELENSKYY: No, I said that —
AMANPOUR: But first with Putin and then with you?
ZELENSKYY: Oh, I’m not happy. I’m — yes, but I think that more dangerous if first meeting will be with Putin and then with Ukraine. And there are
things I shared with President Trump, that first of all we have to see common view. And I said also, that at the table, we need Europe also. It’s
very important for us. We are Europe. We in Europe and we see our future only in E.U. like a member. So, that’s why for us is very important.
AMANPOUR: Do you believe it’ll be the year of peace? And more to the point, do you believe Putin has any intention of allowing an independent
sovereign Ukraine?
ZELENSKYY: We really want peace and we work on it. We will prepare security guarantees like we see. We will share it with the United States
and I hope they will share their view. As I said, common view for me is very is very important to hear all our partners in Europe who helped us, in
E.U. plus, of course, because U.K., our partners, big partners, and that’s why it’s very important to prepare during months, all these things, to
share it with the president of the United States, to find time for this, to our common meetings, to make this common plan, then to put it on the table
for Putin and do everything.
That thinks what really President Trump, he’s strong. He can do, put sanctions or pressure in any ways, in any case, how he wants. And after
that, to stop this war this year, 2025. Make peace in Ukraine. This is our plan. That’s what we really want and that what we will try to do.
AMANPOUR: Did you tell, as was reported, President Trump, that Putin is only doing this and agreeing to talks because he’s afraid of Trump? Did you
tell him that?
ZELENSKYY: Yes. I told Trump that Putin afraid of him. Yes, and he heard me. And now, Putin knows.
AMANPOUR: I shouldn’t be laughing, but you do make me smile. So, Mr. President, thank you very much.
ZELENSKYY: We want peace. We have to live and we have to smile.
AMANPOUR: That’s really true.
ZELENSKYY: When we have time, of course.
AMANPOUR: But it’s true.
ZELENSKYY: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Remember just after that Munich conference, Zelenskyy accepted Trump’s demand for an immediate ceasefire, Putin has not yet. So, the flood
of casualties flows from the front in Ukraine. I jumped aboard one of the countries constantly running railway hospitals. They had never been filmed
until we were given this exclusive access. And for security reasons, we could not reveal its root or identify anyone by their full name.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): On a hot late summer morning, departure time is fast approaching at this railway station in Ukraine. But this is no
ordinary train, it’s a hospital on wheels, evacuating dozens of wounded military personnel away from the Eastern Front as Russia’s brutal offensive
grinds on.
Paramedics carefully loading patient after patient, many of them unconscious, onto repurposed carriages. It’s a highly organized special
operation and it’s never been seen before. CNN gained unprecedented and exclusive access to what so far has remained a closely guarded military
secret.
Before the train moves off, I meet 35-year-old Oleksandr, wounded by a drone strike, which has caused him to go deaf in one ear. His call sign is
Positive, but he doesn’t feel it.
OLEKSANDR, UKRAINIAN SOLDIER: Very tired, but hard times, and we must —
OLEKSANDR (through translator): — keep fighting no matter how hard it is.
AMANPOUR: Do you have enough people, enough weapons to defend?
OLEKSANDR: No.
AMANPOUR: You don’t have enough?
OLEKSANDR (through translator): No, enough. No. There aren’t enough people, and there definitely aren’t enough weapons.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): As the train rolls on, we make our way to the intensive care unit, where several soldiers are on life support. Bed after
bed of broken and battered bodies, lives shattered in an instant. 90 percent of the wounds being treated here are from shrapnel.
And yet, many of these patients know they’ll be patched up just to be sent back to the front as soon as possible. This train and its cargo sum up
Ukraine’s state of military affairs. Mostly ordinary citizens who’ve answered the call. Outmanned, outgunned by Russia, and yet, still putting
up a hell of a fight.
Nurse Yulia makes this journey twice a week.
AMANPOUR: How do you feel being in here with these very badly wounded soldiers? How does it make you feel?
I’m an empathetic person, so it’s difficult, she tells me. But you have to switch off your feelings at the moment of work, and later you can reflect.
And the story of frontline morale is on display here too. If electrician Oleksandr was feeling down after 18 months fighting this brutal war,
Stanislaw, who signed up in March, is still full of patriotic fervor. He can still summon a smile, even though he has shrapnel in his body and
damage to his lungs.
STANISLAW (through translator): Personally, I was ready for it. I was ready to trade the shower stall, the good sheets and the bed, the good
conditions that I had at home for a foxhole. I knew where I was going and what I was doing.
OLEKSANDR, UKRAINIAN ARMED FORCES MEDIC (through translator): The most difficult part is evacuation from the frontline. Combat medics who work on
the front are dying, just like soldiers.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): As these carriages rumble on through fields of gold, think for a moment of history repeating itself in Europe when
thousands of ambulance trains evacuated casualties from World War I’s trenches, more than a million to the U.K. alone.
Tonight, darkness descends as we arrive at the destination, and suddenly, there’s activity everywhere again. As ambulances line up, collecting and
dispatching to hospitals across the country. On the platform, the railway chief describes his pride and his sorrow.
OLEKSANDR PERTSOVSKYL, CEO, PASSENGER OPERATIONS AT UKRAINIAN RAILWAYS: I see these kids who are saying goodbye to their dads who are heading towards
the frontlines to seeing those same guys coming back effectively unconscious or with amputations, it feels like the price of the war is
incredible.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Like a conveyor belt, industrial scale conversion of healthy young men and women into this. And yet, as one of them told us,
Ukraine is strong and motivated. While Russia has quantity, we have quality, and we will win.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Moscow has been denying cold hard facts since the beginning, like the accurate U.S. intelligence that warned the world of Putin’s
planned invasion in 2022. When Russia did invade, the Kremlin denied it was an invasion, calling it a special military operation. I had the rare
opportunity to ask Vladimir Putin’s spokesperson, Dmitry Peskov about the motivations for this illegal war just after it started. Here’s what he said
then.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DMITRY PESKOV, KREMLIN SPOKESPERSON: It’s a serious operation with serious purposes. And I think, if we try to remember those purposes, those main
goals of the operation, it’s to get rid of the military potential of Ukraine. And actually, this is why our military are targeting only military
goals and military objects on the territory of Ukraine, not civil ones. Russian military are not hitting civil aims, civil targets.
Number two is to ensure that Ukraine changes from anti-Russian center to a neutral country. And, in this sense, let’s remember that, after the
collapse of the Soviet Union, actually, the neutral status was fixed in a declaration of independence of the country.
Number three, to get rid of the nationalist battalions and nationalist regiments who are now actually, who are now opposing Russian troops, who
are now trying to cover themselves under the shield of civilians, thus paving a way for civil casualties.
AMANPOUR: Dmitry —
PESKOV: And also —
AMANPOUR: Yes?
PESKOV: And also — I beg your pardon, if you let me, and also to ensure that Ukraine acknowledges the fact that Crimea is also an untakable part of
Russia, and that People’s Republics of Luhansk and Donetsk are already independent states, that Ukraine actually has lost them after the coup that
happened in 2014.
AMANPOUR: OK. So, basically, you are putting and laying out the original demands from President Putin, which I understand seem not to have changed.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Indeed, they haven’t changed to this day. Obviously, I was trying to point out that the targeting by Russia was not just on military
targets, but also on civilians, and it has remained so for more than three years. So, the same maximalist positions from Russia, we will see how and
if that changes at the Alaska summit.
Russia controls approximately 20 percent of the territory now, and the fierce bloodletting has only incrementally moved the frontlines. Drones
have become a game changer here, altering perhaps the very nature of future wars. Under pressure to manufacture and master homegrown weapons, even
ordinary citizens have been recruited to Ukraine drone training centers as I saw myself.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Any support is welcome in Ukraine, especially if it appears blessed by Jesus, say these drone students, set up in an abandoned
church, working on their simulators and convinced their cause is just.
YULIA, UKRAINIAN DRONE PILOT: We do whatever we can now to resist, because Russians want to kill all of us. This is genocide.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Next door in the construct and repair class, Yulia solders and tweaks and teaches. This part is fairly simple and fun, she
says.
AMANPOUR: And did you study engineering? What are you in normal life?
YULIA: A writer and a film director.
AMANPOUR: You’re a writer and a film director?
YULIA: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And now, you’re a drone operator?
YULIA: Yes.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): We’re not allowed to disclose the location where Yulia and the others put theory into practice.
AMANPOUR: Here in this innocuous looking field with a rudimentary obstacle course, this could almost be child’s play but with deadly results, of
course. These are all civilian drones that the Ukrainians are repurposing for their current war effort. They can be bought off store shelves. But
this signifies a turning point in the conduct of modern warfare.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): A $500 drone that’s been weaponized can take out vehicles and weapon systems worth millions.
Software engineer, Lyuba Shipovich, started the Victory Drones Initiative.
LYUBA SHIPOVICH, CO-FOUNDER, VICTORY DRONES: The most advantage, it’s one of the most cost-effective weapon. And it’s also a weapon and it could be
used as reconnaissance. For reconnaissance purpose, if you see the enemy, you can hit enemy, you can hide like your soldiers. So, it’s —
AMANPOUR: But enemy they can see you.
SHIPOVICH: Yes. If you don’t use security measurements.
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Like hiding or disguising their signals, because the Russians are adapting fast. She says they’re mostly crowd funded and have
deals with the Ukrainian military to train front line troops, tens of thousands so far in what’s become indispensable strategy.
That was just practice dropping a water bottle full of sand. But just a few days ago, the group says one of their former trainees took out this Russian
tank on the eastern front. They can also wipe out artillery positions and troop carriers.
AMANPOUR: How long did it take you to learn to fly?
AMANPOUR (voiceover): Many of these citizen soldiers are women busting stubborn myths. And Yulia, of course, agrees. In fact, she assembles the
drones her husband flies too.
AMANPOUR: And a lot of women have taken up this fight?
YULIA: Yes. We are all people and we’re fighting for our existence.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (on camera): And those drones are now really the main weapons. Remember when Ukraine was supposed to fall within days of Putin’s full-
scale event invasion? Instead, it’s resisted mightily. It’s neither fallen nor surrendered, but it has had to fight to keep American support in the
face of Trump’s reluctance. Zelenskyy himself has been transformed from a former comedian to a Churchillian wartime leader, rallying his people and
the world in the face of death-defying odds, as I found during an interview at the Presidential Palace in Kyiv, and for the first time, First Lady
Zelenskyy joined him. Both were tired, but determined.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: Did you expect it to last this long? Do you have any idea of how long it might last?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Thank you for the question and thank you for the meeting. You asked whether I thought this war would last so long.
No, because I didn’t start this war, and I’m sure there isn’t a single Ukrainian who knew what this will be and what tragedy this would bring to
every home in our country.
Because, I repeat, we did not start this war. But Ukrainian society united and showed that it was ready for what, unfortunately, was such a tragedy
showed that it was ready for these challenges. I was really impressed by the power of one nation. And was impressed by the swiftness of the response
of Europe, the whole world, and the whole International Community that rallied around Ukraine for this challenge.
AMANPOUR: First lady, what motivates you to get up in the morning? How do you feel that you have endured this war?
OLENA ZELENSKA, UKRAINIAN FIRST LADY (through translator): Well, thank you. It’s a big question. It covers many spheres of my life. And what helps
me get up in the morning, surely as you said, is my husband’s example. I know that if he endures then I have to endure. If the day has begun, then
we have to keep fighting. That keeps me going.
It’s not easy every day but, you know, you need to keep running. You cannot stop. As Allister (ph) said, in order to stay in place, you have to run
even faster. That is why we run and I get some inspiration from the kids, from the children.
First and foremost, there are some ordinary things that every family is doing. You need to get your son ready for school, you need to make sure he
has had breakfast. Well, unfortunately I don’t have the assurance that my child would go to school every day because of those strikes with missiles
and drones. There is a lot of work. A lot of humanitarian projects that we will continue after the war. That helps a lot.
AMANPOUR: We’ve heard of many Ukrainian children being taken over to Russia. We don’t know really what’s happening to them. Here in Kyiv and in
the area, I’ve met and watched over the last few days, kids who’ve been obviously traumatized by the war, the air raid siren frighten the little
ones. Kids who’ve been told to be quiet and hide quietly. Have difficulty speaking and communicating. Some kids have seen horrible things happen
under occupation, their mothers raped for instance. Obviously, you’re a mother, but you’re very involved in the mental health aspect and with your
foundation also with women and children.
ZELENSKA (through translator): First of all, it’s a big tragedy that our children are being taken away to Russia. There is a large number of
children who our social services lost connection with and we can’t find them. Sometime in summer, the Russians relax their adoption legislation.
They simplified the procedure to adopt Ukrainian children, which is horrible. And we understand, we’ll have to fight for them. And we keep
talking about it at all international forums.
I heard the news that a children’s home has we move from the occupied territories in Kherson region. We cannot reach them, unfortunately. We
cannot save them. But hopefully the International Community will help us return our children.
Now, as regards to helping those children who suffered psychologically from the horrors of war, now there are hundreds of these children already. And
we can’t even imagine what those children suffered. Who had to bury their own mother in the yards of their homes. Who saw their relatives murdered.
Who stayed in the basements of Mariupol. We can only observe them and try to help.
And for that purpose, we are establishing a national program on mental health and psychosocial support, which I hope will have a lot of projects
for kids. I can give you an example. Once, fairly successful, I believe, we organized a camp together with Ukrainian psychologists and donors. There
were 20 kids with psychological issues. We took them to a special camp where the tutors were psychologists. They spent 20 days in Spain under
constant 24-hour psychological monitoring. And this therapy had wonderful results.
The children who did not speak started speaking. The children who had eating disorders or didn’t eat at all — and there was a boy who never
slept. The tutors had to sleep beside him because he could only sleep if there were somebody next to him. And indeed, we saw wonderful results.
We want to scale up this project. We are supported by experts from Israel and Belgium. The next training destination for our specialist will be in
the U.K. Very soon this month, we will be sending our psychologists and psychotherapists for training there. We choose the world’s best practices
for coping with PTSD.
AMANPOUR: I can see makes a very sad, both of you. I can see listening to your wife and this assault on the children is difficult to take.
ZELENSKYY (through translator): It is difficult to live with this. I believe the main thing is not to get used to living with it but to fight
it. As Olena said, with various programs.
AMANPOUR: Mr. President, you’ve obviously heard there are all these articles being written. There are these foreign policy analysts who are
saying isn’t enough already for you? Do you — should you go to the negotiating table? Some of these countries with economic pressures on their
own who are supporting you now. Are they — are you feeling any pressure to go to the negotiation table?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Look, they don’t want this warp to be finished. Now, before having any fatigue, everyone has to understand that
it’s only the Kremlin, and only one person, the head of the Russian Federation, who’s not tired of the war. He might be tired of life, in
principle because of his age but he’s definitely not tired of the war.
And then for our part, we say, please respect our principles of the U.N. charter. Please respect our territorial integrity. Please respect our
people, our rights, our freedom, our land, and our choice. That’s it. So, this word fatigue is a big word. You can’t get fatigued. So, it’s too early
for all of us to get fatigued. But when Russia truly wants peace, we will definitely feel it and see it.
But you know, you can’t wish for peace with words alone. Words are not enough. Stop the war, withdraw from the territory, stop killing people.
Start reimbursing the damages inflicted on our country. Criminals must be prosecuted. So, words are not enough. Other than the ultimatums, I’ve not
heard anything from the current president of the Russian Federation. Starting for the 24th of February, there have been only ultimatums,
denazification. Every issue they raise starts with a D. They always want to deprive us of something violently on our own land.
So, I said that I’m not going to talk to this person if this person conducts these sham referendums and recognizes all of those sham
authorities that they set up as legal. We said this clearly. But I haven’t closed the door. I said, we would be ready to talk to Russia, but with a
different Russia. One that is truly ready for peace. Bring back justice. And so far, I have not heard statements like that from the Russian
Federation, either from Putin or from anyone else.
AMANPOUR: And I want to ask you another question, because I’ve noticed that Ukrainians are not afraid to poke the bear. So, the bear is the
Russian bear. And you guys are constantly poking on the ground, in the battle, in the airwaves, in the Twitter accounts of the ministry of
defense, all over. A lot of people outside are afraid of Russia and what Russia might do. Where did this come from?
ZELENSKYY (through translator): You know, I think that Russia feeds on these fears. And I think this is a big mistake over the last few decades.
Russia feels it has this power. The more you give it, the more it fuels your fear. It lives by it.
ZELENSKA (through translator): I think historically, we’ve been under pressure for so long, it’s no longer scary. It’s not even interesting. We
just want it to stop. It’s more of an emotion rather than a fear. Centuries of Russian empire, then dozens of years of Soviet Union, with all of these
famines, with all the repressions, with all the expulsions of Ukrainians to Siberia and Kazakhstan. We’ve suffered so much from them that if we don’t
put an end to this now, there may be no chance in the future. This is our last stand.
And when it is a last stand, we’ve all seen it in the movies, there is only one winner. And of course, our soul desire is to be that winner. Otherwise,
we will have no future for this nation because everything that’s happening is elimination on ethnic grounds.
All this calls for denazification, this is all about the Ukrainian nation being wrong. Not having a right of — to exist. The Ukrainian language is
not a real language, it’s just bad Russian. It’s all about losing the values — there are no values for humanity. This is something we can never
put up with really because it would mean rejecting ourselves. Therefore, there is no fear. There is resilience. There is bravery. All we need is
swifter and more powerful support than we are getting now.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: That was late 2022 when they were racking up battlefield’s successes. It’s become much more difficult now with amped up nightly
attacks by Russia on cities like Kyiv. But still, ordinary citizens mount their own resistance by simply carrying on. Just buying books and reading
them is an act of defiance these days, as I discovered in Kyiv.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR (voice-over): This bookstore is called Sens or the meaning. And opening in Kyiv just days before the Russian war enters a third year sends
a clear message. And Ukraine’s greatest living novelist, Andrey Kurkov tells us there is much to say about Ukraine’s culture, identity and
resistance. He wrote the forward for this tome full of 12th century artifacts.
AMANPOUR: So, when Putin says, this is all greater Russia, what’s your answer?
ANDREY KURKOV, AUTHOR, “THE SILVER BONE”: Well, he’s silly. And he’s not historian. Kyiv is 1,540 years old. Moscow is only 870 years old.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): An army of workers is still getting the bookstore cafe ready. But it is open. And people come in hungry for nonfiction these
days, for the history of their region. Ukrainian identity helps them fight and resist, says Kurkov, reminding us that Russians have looted and
destroyed libraries, theaters and museums in parts they now occupy.
AMANPOUR: And what would you be saying, if you were to say anything to the people of Russia?
KURKOV: It’s a very good question. I would probably ask them to put mirrors all around them and to look themselves in the eyes and to ask
themselves a question if they are living in 21st century or they are still living in Stalin’s Gulag.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Kurkov, like most Ukrainians, see themselves, their land, as the front line between the authoritarian and the democratic world.
Kyiv is further away from the fighting, but over in the northeast, Kharkiv, the second largest city, the danger is real and ever present.
Some 40 miles from the Russia border, their massive S-300 missiles reached the city in less than 40 seconds, no time to hide. Memorials to the recent
dead spring up all over. This is a place where material evidence of war crimes committed by the Russian Federation is stored, including multiple
launch rocket systems, grads, cruise missiles, Shahid drones, artillery shells.
This Kharkiv radio station is called Boiling Over. It started up 10 years ago after Russia’s first invasion as an alternate voice.
Just a month and a half ago, you could listen to dozens of Russian stations, says the founder, Yevhen. All of these are Russian propaganda
stations that tell us that Ukraine doesn’t exist, that it’s in Russia and that Ukrainian soldiers should surrender.
Natalia, the radio host, tells us it’s also become a sounding board for the terrified and depressed Kharkiv listeners.
Feedback can be varied, she tells us. Sometimes they just thank me for the show, and for the fact that they got out of bed thanks to the program. And
I consider this a victory, because it could be someone in a state of absolute despair.
Like Ukrainians everywhere, the novelist, Kurkov, tells me, he is hoping for America to step up now.
KURKOV: And remember that America was always a symbol of freedom for Ukraine, for many countries, and I wish America remains the symbol of
freedom and the country which set up the standards of democracy in the world.
AMANPOUR (voice-over): Kyiv and Kharkiv, a tale of two cities and separate states of anxiety.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, while all eyes are fixed on the U.S.-Russia Alaska talks, Trump set about lowering expectations while also raising the possibility of
a second meeting to include Zelenskyy. So, what is Putin’s ultimate goal? Well, Bill Browder, who was deported from Russia in 2005, is the CEO of
Hermitage Capital Management and the head of the Global Magnitsky Justice Campaign, and he speaks to Walter Isaacson about the significance of this
meeting.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Christiane. And, Bill Brower, welcome back to the show.
BILL BROWER, CEO AND CO-FOUNDER, HERMITAGE CAPITAL MANAGEMENT: Great to be here.
ISAACSON: So, this week we’re having this Trump-Putin summit about Ukraine. We’re speaking right before that summit. But tell me, what do you
think Putin’s goal really is?
BROWDER: Well, I don’t think that Putin has any particular goal about bringing peace to Ukraine. Putin has never altered his objectives, which
are, you know, a total victory in Ukraine. I think that what Putin is doing this for is very simple. He needs to help Donald Trump save face. Donald
Trump has sort of boxed himself into a corner by promising to end this war in 24 hours every — he was saying that during his campaign and he keeps on
saying that. And he’s also made all sorts of ultimatums to Putin that he has to, you know, end this war, stop the killing, all that kind of stuff.
And so, Putin needs something so that he Trump doesn’t look terrible.
And so, the summit is a way for him to show up, make some offers, which are offers that are totally unacceptable to Ukraine, and then flip the script
so it’s no longer Putin standing in the way of peace, but it’s Zelenskyy and the Ukrainians standing in the way for peace.
ISAACSON: Ukrainian President Zelenskyy said pretty much the same as you did right before the summit began, which is that he says Putin is bluffing.
He doesn’t really want peace. He wants to occupy Ukraine, were his words. Do you think that Putin is dedicated to that, or is there some possibility
of a compromise someday?
BROWDER: There is no possibility of a compromise any day as far as Vladimir Putin is concerned. And what you have to know and what’s hard for
people to understand who haven’t been close to Putin or Russia is that in Russia the culture is one of domination. It’s like a jailhouse. It’s you’re
either the winner or the loser, either you’re the killer or the killed. Nobody — in any conflict in Russia, and I’ve been involved in many
conflicts in Russia with Putin, there is no letting off. There’s no there compromise. There’s no negotiation. It’s just total victory or total
defeat. That’s how they think.
And moreover, because of that, Putin is in a very precarious position himself. Once you start a fight, if you do anything that you show weakness,
then the people underneath you who want your job, want your position, want your privileges, will use that against you to say, look, this guy’s not
tough. He’s not a proper uncompromising Russian. We could do better. And then Putin was in a position where he potentially could lose power.
And so — and by the way, for lose — for Putin, losing power means Putin loses his life. So, for him, this is a truly existential battle. This is a
battle for his own survival and he has no intention of compromising. He has no intention of negotiating or any in any way showing any type of leniency
or halfway towards what the Ukrainians would need to come to a deal.
ISAACSON: So, what you’re really saying is that for President Putin, it’s in his interest for the war to keep going on. If this war ends in any way
other than total occupation of Kyiv for — which it won’t, he’s in a precarious position you say?
BROWDER: That’s correct. And what he’s also banking on is he’s banking on the fact that he doesn’t care what his losses are. And the Russians have
lost, according to Ukrainian estimates, about 1.1 million men, either through death or disability. And in a normal democratic society, that would
be devastating. No leader could survive that, that they would be replaced 10 times over.
You know, if we lost in the west any — you know, the United States or U.K. or wherever, if we lost 20,000 men, there would be a, you know, total
protests in the street. But Putin is running a dictatorship, a totalitarian regime. And so, those kind of losses don’t affect him because people — he
doesn’t need public support. He just needs public fear, which is what he’s got.
And so, he’s betting on the fact that he can just carry on doing this and sooner or later we’re going to cave in the west in terms of supporting
Ukraine. And we’re already seeing that to a greater or lesser extent in the United States. And he is also betting on the fact that in a war of
attrition, he wins because he’s 10 times bigger than Ukraine.
ISAACSON: How bad is the Russian economy at the moment?
BROWDER: It’s bad. It’s very bad. The major companies of Russia, Gazprom, (INAUDIBLE) Bank, all these companies that used to be very big successful
companies are all losing money. The government budget is squeezed. There — the banking system is in a state of collapse. The ruble is weak. The only
thing that they have going for them, and it’s not a particularly great thing, having going for them, is oil. Oil is the one thing that keeps them
afloat.
They sell their oil to the Chinese, to the Indians, to the Turks and a few other countries, and they also sell some of their gas directly into Europe.
And it’s the revenues from that that basically fund their war machine. But I wouldn’t say that the Russian economy is doing well. I wouldn’t say that
people feel, you know, flush and happy about the economy, but again, it doesn’t really matter from a public — you don’t, he doesn’t need public
support, he just needs the cash and he is got the cash.
ISAACSON: You probably know more about the internal workings of the Russian economy than any other Western, or you were, I think, the largest
foreign direct investment there for a while before it all blew up. Tell me about the economy, and you’ve talked about oil, let’s start there. Oil’s
now down to about, what, $62, $63 a barrel, that’s pretty low. How much is that hurting Russia?
BROWDER: Well, I think that their budget revenues have come in about 20 percent less now from oil than they did a year ago, which is, of course, a
lot of — that’s a big percentage move. But it’s not so big that they’re bankrupt. So, if oil were to come in at $40 a barrel, that they would be in
deep, deep trouble.
And you know, you mentioned the word of the Russian economy, there really isn’t much of a Russian economy other than oil. I mean, yes, they have gas,
oil, gas, they have minerals, they have aluminum, steel, fertilizers, a bit of timber, but that’s it. This is not like China that has, you know,
hundreds of thousands, if not millions of small and medium sized businesses. Nobody in Russia ever felt confident to start a business there
because they knew that if they did, someone would take it away from them, that the police would come and arrest them and take their business away
from them.
And so, you’ve got this unbelievably skewed economy, which is just the largest state enterprises, which are basically in the business of selling
resources. And they don’t bend the metal into anything, they just sell the metal raw. They have no capacity to make things in Russia. It’s not like
you’ve ever heard about a Russian cell phone or a Russian car. Because I mean — yes, they make a Russian car, but no one would buy it. And even the
Russians don’t want to buy it because there there’s no incentive to do any type of ingenuity, to any type of innovation. They just strip the ground of
whatever they’ve got, and then they sell it to other countries who have much greater capabilities than themselves.
ISAACSON: So, you’ve said that the Russian economy depends on selling oil or oil and gas, but mainly oil. And we’ve watched in the past week or so
this notion of trying to put sanctions on India, to stop India from buying Russian oil. It seems to be the one thing that President Trump and Lindsey
Graham has got a whole bunch of supporters trying to force this. How realistic is that and could you stop India from buying Russia oil? What
would that do to Russia?
BROWDER: Well, so, first of all, it’s kind of a strange story. So, there are three countries that are the major buyers of Russian oil. The biggest
is China, the second is India, the third is Turkey. So, why he’s picking on India at this point is kind of odd. Right now, they’re saying, if India
buys Russian oil, then India as a country gets sanctioned with extra 25 percent tariffs.
What could be done a lot less aggressively is to say that if any Indian company buys any Russian oil, then that company can’t trade with us, can’t
trade with European Union, can’t trade with the U.K. and they can’t sell their refined products, or they can’t bank, they can’t do whatever. And
guess what? If that were put in place, then the Indian companies would stop buying Russian oil. And if the Indian companies stopped buying Russian oil
and the Chinese did, and the Turks did, the Russians would still sell their oil, but it would be sell, it would be selling at $10 a barrel because
nobody would want to get into the trouble and cut off the entire world from the — you know, cut from their business. And so, I think that it’s
plausible.
Now, the — you might ask why haven’t we done that before? If Russia’s war machine functions off of oil and if we could stop that oil and stop the war
machine, then why wouldn’t we have done that? And the answer is that Russia produces about 10 percent of the world’s oil. And if you take a country
with 10 percent of the world’s oil and you take that off the market and you have the same amount of oil demand, then what happens? Supply goes down,
demand stays the same, and the price goes up.
And we’re living in a world where inflation has been plaguing most central banks and most governments and most politics, and nobody wants inflation to
go up. And so, there’s this very fine line between, you know, how do you balance out your inflation objectives with how do you balance out trying to
end this war? And up until now, everybody has been really tiptoeing around this issue.
ISAACSON: You know, this week’s Alaska’s summit, do you think there’s a real problem of not having Zelenskyy being part of these negotiations and
can Trump and Putin try to just negotiate themselves?
BROWDER: Well, I mean, I think that there are two parties in this war. There’s Russia and there’s Ukraine. And those are the two parties that have
to negotiate. And to have Trump negotiate or sort of foist a deal onto Ukraine is sort of completely an inappropriate thing.
Secondly, the U.S., since Trump has been elected, has stopped funding Ukraine. There’s no longer — there’s no bills in front of Congress for
another $60 billion for Ukraine, et cetera. That has been the U.S.’s main leverage, not his only leverage, but its main leverage. And so, I don’t
think that Trump can say to Zelenskyy, you know, you’ve got to give this up, you’ve got to give that up, you’ve got to agree to this, you’ve got to
agree to that. I don’t think that’s — I don’t think he can make those demands and have Zelenskyy agree to them. And I don’t think he can make
those demands and have other countries in Europe who are also supporting Ukraine agree to that.
ISAACSON: You know, President Trump has said, if we can’t really get a lasting peace, maybe he’ll just walk away from it and let this war
continue. J. D. Vance, the vice president, has said, Americans are sick of funding it. We’re not going to fund it anymore. As you say, there are no
more bills in front of Congress to fund it. What happens if the U.S. just walks away and quits funding this whole thing?
BROWDER: Well, I mean, it has. The U.S. has already walked away. There has not — there is not any really explicit support. The Trump —
ISAACSON: Yes. But there’s still American weapons going to Ukraine, off and on.
BROWDER: So, Donald Trump made a big deal about the Europeans buying the weapons from the American defense industry. And to the extent that Trump
wants to cut off his own defense industry in order to make a political point, that just doesn’t sound to me like Donald Trump. So, I don’t think
there’s a risk of that happening.
There are some things that are really important. One is that the U.S. has unbelievable intelligence as far as satellite intelligence about what’s
going on the ground that nobody else can replicate. And when that’s withdrawn, if that’s withdrawn, that’s not very helpful. But the main
thing, the main leverage that the U.S. has at this point is NATO.
So, the U.S. is the — I would say the leader of NATO. You’ve got a bunch of other European countries that are part of NATO. And to the extent that
Trump threatens NATO allies to say that I’m not going to do NATO if you continue to support the war, I think that that’s really where the leverage
continues to be. And if he says, I’m going to walk away from NATO, that creates a much bigger problem not just for Ukraine, but for the security of
Europe more generally, which is why you’ve got all these European leaders tiptoeing around trying to flatter him, trying to cajole him, having talks
with him because everybody’s just trying to keep the Transatlantic Alliance going so he doesn’t — so Trump doesn’t do something abrupt and moves on to
his next issue and forgets about all those threats that he made a week ago or a month ago or six months ago.
ISAACSON: Let me ask you a question I asked you two years ago saying, you know, this thing continuing is certainly not in Ukraine’s interest. What
happens if you just had a ceasefire in place, and you said, OK, we’re not going to resolve all the territorial issues. Now, we’re going to have a
peacekeeping force that keeps the ceasefire in place. Would Russia — would Ukraine accept that and is that some type of solution?
BROWDER: I think Ukraine would accept that in a heartbeat. I think that that that would be a very good outcome at this stage of the game. You know,
freeze the battle where it is. Nobody recognizes anything. You know, put up a bunch of demarcations, get a bunch of peacekeeping forces in there, real
peacekeeping forces, have NATO threat to Russia, if you move any further, we’ll come after you. I think that that’s all they want at this point.
The Ukrainians just want to, as best as they can, get back to their lives. They don’t want to accept that they’ve lost territory, but at the same
time, they’re not going to say, we have to have it all back. I mean, you know, they’ve made those statements, but I think they would jump at that
deal in a heartbeat.
And I think that that’s what the Europeans are telling Donald Trump right now, which is, you know, there’s no land swaps that are going to go on,
there’s no recognition of Crimea, that’s not going to happen. But what could happen is we all just put down our weapons and then negotiate for the
next 10 years, have a frozen conflict, but allow the killing to stop. I think that that would be a solution that most everybody would get behind.
ISAACSON: Bill Brower, thank you so much for joining us again.
BROWDER: Thank you.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: That is it for now. Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.