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[upbeat instrumental music] - Hello everyone, and welcome to 'Amanpour and Company,' from Kabul, Afghanistan.
Here's what's coming up.
The dire humanitarian catastrophe, with half the population facing starvation.
I witness the desperate conditions on the ground, and ask the World Food Programme, if the worst is still to come.
Then, more of our world exclusive with one of Afghanistan's most powerful and secretive players, deputy Taliban leader, Sirajuddin Haqqani, on women's rights under their regime.
And how women here have to navigate both repression and poverty, with activist Mahbouba Seraj.
Plus, domestic terror strikes the United States again.
Hari Sreenivasan speaks to former FBI agent, Tom O'Connor, about the mass killings in Buffalo, New York.
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- Welcome to the program everyone.
I'm Christiane Amanpour in Kabul.
Afghanistan has fallen off the world map since the Taliban takeover, and the chaotic American withdrawal nine months ago.
But for almost everyone here, life has become a daily struggle against poverty.
About half the Afghan population face acute food insecurity, with almost 9 million on the brink of famine.
And children are particularly hard hit, more than a million face acute malnutrition, says UNICEF.
We also know the root causes, a collapsing economy, exacerbated by international sanctions and a catastrophic drought.
And it's not hard to find, as we did when we went to a humanitarian distribution center, to a hospital, and to a family home.
Some of what you're about to see is not easy to watch or to accept, but it is essential that we see what Afghans are forced to live with now.
[indistinct chatter] Under a scorching sun, standing patiently for hours in organized lines, hundreds of newly poor Afghans wait for their monthly handout, men on one side, women on the other.
Here, the UN's World Food Programme is delivering cash assistance, the equivalent of $43 per family.
Khalid Ahmadzai is the coordinator.
He says, he's seen the need explode.
And right from the start, the stories are dire.
- A few days ago, one woman came to me, and she told me that I want to give you my son by 16,000 afghani, just gimme that afghani.
And she was really crying, and that was the worst feeling that I had in my life.
- Are you serious?
- Yeah, this is a serious thing, that we had a distribution at the first day.
So the hunger is too much high here.
- We've heard those stories, but I've never heard it... - Yup.
- From somebody who's actually seen it. - Yeah, I have seen.
[indistinct chatter] It's too much to bear and it hurts me a lot.
- Everyone we met is hurting.
According to the International Rescue Committee, almost half the population of Afghanistan lives on less than one meal a day.
And the UN says, nearly 9 million people risk famine-like conditions.
[indistinct chatter] [indistinct] has five kids.
And how many meals per day can you eat?
[woman speaking foreign language] When you don't have money, she tells us, when you don't have a job, you don't have income.
Would you be able to eat proper food when there's no work?
[women speaking foreign language] Hotima is a widow.
'They should let us work, because we have to become the men of the family, so we can find bread for the children.
None of my six kids have shoes.
And with 3000 afghanis, what will I be able to do in six months time?'
You just want work.
'I have to work,' she says.
At this WFP distribution site in Kabul, you do see women working, and women mostly with their faces uncovered.
Outside, Taliban slogans plastered over the blast walls, tout victory over the Americans, and claim to be of the people for the people.
But while security has improved since they took over, the country is facing economic collapse.
And that shows up all over the tiny bodies we see at the Indira Gandhi Children's hospital.
It's the biggest in Afghanistan, now heaving under the extra weight.
Dr. Mohammad Yaqob Sharafat tells us, that 20 to 30% of the babies in this neonatal ward are malnourished.
Suddenly, he rushes to the side of one who has stopped breathing.
[machine beeping] - Which years?
- Seven.
- For five minutes, we watched him pump his heart until he comes back to life.
[indistinct chatter] But for how long?
Even in the womb, the decks are stacked against them.
- From one side, the mothers are not getting well nutritions.
- Wow, so it's a triple whammy.
The mothers aren't nourished enough.
- Yeah.
- The economy is bad.
- Bad.
- They have too many children.
- Children.
- And they're overworking themselves. - Were working.
So all this factors together make this situations to give birth to premature babies.
- Because they're under sanctions, the Taliban is struggling to pay salaries.
So the International Committee of the Red Cross pays all the doctors and nurses at this hospital, and at 32 others across the country.
That's about 10,000 health workers in all.
[indistinct chatter] Look at this child.
[indistinct chatter] He's two and a half years old.
His name is Mohamed, he's malnourished.
How much food is she able to give her child at home?
Why does he look like this?
His mother says she's had nothing but breast milk to feed him, but now can't afford enough to eat, to keep producing even that.
It's the same for Shazia.
Her seven-month-old baby has severe pneumonia.
But at least she gets fed here at the hospital, so that she can breastfeed her daughter.
[Shazia speaking foreign language] 'Back home, we don't have this kind of food, unfortunately,' she says.
'If we have food for lunch, we don't have anything for dinner.'
While we are here, the electricity's gone out.
[indistinct chatter] 'It happens all the time,' the director tells us.
We watch a doctor carry on by the light of a mobile phone until the electricity comes back.
[indistinct chatter] We end this day in the tiniest dwellings amongst the poorest of Kabul's poor.
Wali Yala and Basmina have six children.
While she prepares their meal of eggs, two small bowls of beans, and two flat breads, the eight and 10-year-old are out scavenging waste paper to sell, and polishing shoes.
It's their only income, since Wali Yala injured his back, and can no longer work as a laborer.
He tells us their 10-month-old baby is malnourished.
[Basmina speaking foreign language] 'I always worry and stress about this,' says Basmina.
But she tells her kids... [Basmina speaking foreign language] 'God will be kind to us one day.'
One day, perhaps.
That has been the story of Afghanistan for decades now.
Mary-Ellen McGroarty is the World Food Programme direct to here, and she's joining me now.
What we saw was really heartbreaking, and that's just one or two days of bearing witness.
You've been here for months, and months, and months.
Just give us a sense of what it's like now.
- Yeah, I mean, it still continues to be heartbreaking.
We just had the new assessment that came out last week.
So we're done it under 20 million of acute food insecurity.
- So is that better?
- And so this is a bit better.
The massive scale up that we've done over the last couple of months with humanitarian food assistance, thanks to the incredible generosity of the international community.
We've been able to reach 17 million people since January, phenomenal numbers, but needed numbers.
But it still continues.
They're not out of the woods in Afghanistan yet because the main drivers of food and security haven't changed.
We're waiting on the harvest in June and July.
We're hopeful that it'll be a better harvest than last year.
But still some of the rainfall hasn't been good, but the economic crisis continues.
And when I walk, when I go out across the country, that's what I hear.
- So let me just read you these stats.
We've got lots of stats.
- Yeah. - But they are actually kind of mind boggling.
We've got a graphic to show just how dire it is according to your organization and others.
You say you've adjusted down to about 20 million, they face acute hunger.
20,000 are at the most extreme level of food insecurity, which are like famine-like conditions.
And according to UNICEF, 1.1 million children are expected to suffer from severe, severe wasting this year.
That's nearly double the number in 2018.
We were told at your food distribution, your aid distribution center, that some of these people had never waited in line for handouts, had never had to have handouts over the last 20 years.
- Yeah, I mean, I have... I've been here since August, as you know, over the last nine months, and I've traveled out across the country.
And I have met farmers who've told me, you know, through the decades of war, they never had to stand in line for humanitarian assistance until now.
I've met many, many women who, even female head of houses, widows, who were able to fend for themselves.
And it's just all imploded for them.
That collision of the drought and the economic crisis, the legacy of COVID.
I mean, I was in the Wakhan Corridor last week.
It's one of the remotes areas in Afghanistan.
And there, they were telling me how the impact of COVID around the tourism, the small, but tourism they had.
The economic crisis, you think, you look at the big numbers, and you think in this remote area, they're not gonna talk about the economic crisis.
But they did.
Every village I was in, I met people who lost their jobs.
I met teachers who couldn't go to work.
I met women who couldn't go to work.
And then climate change and the impact on crops.
So yeah, I mean, it's just that whole collision of factors coming together.
- Talk to me about women, 'cause you mentioned women who used to be able to fend for themselves, and now can't.
One of the reasons apart from all the natural disasters and the economic collapse is because many have been forced out of work.
There's a chilling effect since the Taliban has come.
And I wonder how you notice that, and how it affects the humanitarian distribution.
What could or should be done for women specifically?
- Yeah, I mean, women are bearing the brunt of hunger in Afghanistan.
I mean, after decades and decades of conflict, we have old widows, we have young widows, we have middle-aged widows, trying to fend for themselves and trying to fend for their family.
What I'm seeing across the country when I go out is I meet many young women, who are the only breadwinner in their family who can't go to work.
It is absolutely heartbreaking to hear from them.
Our priority is that women can access the humanitarian assistance, and also that our staff can continue to come to work.
- So lemme ask about your staff.
Because again, we hear the edicts.
We don't see them yet, at least not here in Kabul, forcefully enforced, like the edict on the full body covering.
That's confusing.
Is it a full body covering?
Is it a head scarf?
What is it?
I asked their leader about it.
And yet there are posters stuck up even apparently on some UN walls.
So what is the situation?
We witnessed women working at your distribution center, and women there, some of the beneficiaries not feeling they had to cover their face.
How is it, how is it working right now in that regard?
- Yeah, we're monitoring it very closely.
And it's landing quite differently across the country.
As you said, you were in a distribution site today and you saw female staff working.
And it's great, and women accessing humanitarian assistance.
When I was out in the Wakhan Corridor last week, women are worried about being able to access the market by themselves.
They're worried about going to the fields by themselves.
They're worried about going to the well themselves, but most particularly they're worried about going to health centers and nutrition centers with their young children by themselves.
So... - Since, Since the takeover, because they've been told they can't leave without male escorts, is that right? - Exactly, yeah, and there's a lot of self censoring, and there's fear as well.
I mean, about going out.
I mean, yes, some women are braver than other women.
But a lot what I met last week, this is really their concern, you know, about going to the fields, going to the market.
And for us, our major concern is that women right across Afghanistan are able to access humanitarian assistance services, nutrition services, and also being able to work.
- And what is your relationship with Taliban particularly, I mean, as a woman, and also as a WFP representative here, a major, major necessity for them.
Because they can't provide the wherewithal for their people.
- Yeah, I mean, I engage with the Taliban at the national level, at the provincial level when I'm out.
I engage so that we have the humanitarian access that we need, and that we have principle humanitarian assistance.
So I talk to them, I inform them on what we're doing, just to make sure that we have that humanitarian space.
- And?
- Yes, I talk to them.
- Any restrictions?
- No, I mean, you have issues here and there in a complex operation like Afghanistan on this scale of the operation.
But in most cases we're able to solve the problems.
We have over 2000 distribution sites across the country, we're across all the 34 provinces.
And on the whole we're able to get to the people we need to reach.
- Now we said, and we asked the question, will this humanitarian crisis, in terms of food insecurity, will it get worse?
Or have you broken on the back of the words?
I know you were terrified in the winter, that the cold weather, the lack of food, could see a massive death toll.
- Yeah, I was terrified in October.
I mean, what we were looking at, and, you know, thankfully the donors, the international community stood up, and really enabled us, and enabled the humanitarian communities to scale up at a massive scale, that got us across the winter.
We're now hopeful of the harvest, as I said.
But at the same time we still have a humanitarian crisis.
We need a couple of things in Afghanistan.
We need to continue with the pressure on the humanitarian crisis, and get people back from the cliff edge.
But at the same time, we need to be building household resilience, community resilience.
So we need a true tracked approach at both scale.
If you're hungry today, you need to eat today and you're hungry tomorrow.
Seeds take a couple of months to grow.
So we need the agriculture inputs.
We need jobs to come back, of course, 'cause that's what I hear.
That's what frightens me.
With the drought, there is some hope with the rain and everything else.
But when you hear right across the people telling you, 'We've lost our jobs.'
Do you think what's going to happen?
- And lastly, are you concerned that there's Afghanistan fatigue or Afghanistan ignoring syndrome since the withdrawal of the US and since the war in Ukraine?
- Yeah, I mean, it is worrying.
So it is.
And there's not only just the Afghanistan crisis, there are many crisis across the world.
But when I'm sitting here, and when I go out and when I talk to people, and I'm just hoping the international community, please don't forget Afghanistan, and they're in need.
They're in a situation, not of their own making.
It is the lottery of birth.
You and I are lucky where we were born, right?
You meet many of the people, many of the people I meet today, and they're Afghan and they're in a situation.
It's been the peace dividend is a very sad peace dividend for the people of Afghanistan. - Yeah.
- And I really hope the international community continue to give us the support, and give the people of Afghanistan the support they need.
- Mary-Ellen Mcgroarty, WFP coordinator here.
Thank you so much indeed.
- Thank you, Christiane.
- So yesterday, we brought you part one of my exclusive conversation with the deputy Taliban leader.
Now, he's the interim interior minister, Sirajuddin Haqqani.
He told me that he's committed to women's rights within their framework.
And he says that Taliban order, that women cover themselves from head to toe in public, is really just advice, not a decree.
But the posters we see here on the streets of Kabul illustrate the pressure on women to conform.
Haqqani told me this rare interview is to make himself and the government visible to Afghans and the world.
Here's part two of our exclusive conversation.
Did you ever expect the international community would be so firm, in putting the rights of women so central to the conditions for recognizing you?
Amongst other things, but women's rights, very central.
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - [Translator] I wish to [indistinct], and instead of sanctions, had done some research and came to an agreement with us, and had some understanding.
It is possible that they may have been satisfied with us, but now, the situation is reversed.
Under the current circumstances, judgements, research, and decision making are all one sided.
The point is that the interpretation of the current situation is no accurate.
And instead of seeing Afghanistan from a specific angle, from far away, they should come to take a closer look at the situation inside Afghanistan.
Communicate with us, come to a mutual understanding with us.
We are still at the preliminary phase.
It has barely been eight months since we took over the government.
Our government assumed power in a situation when everything had almost collapsed.
We are yet to bring the situation back to normal.
Therefore, such an interpretation is not true.
Instead, there should be discussions.
This will be better because all such concerns could be easily resolved through dialogue and mutual understanding.
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - Can I just get it very clear, does your government accept that women need to work?
It's half the population, you are in dire, dire, financial stress, women have the right to work under Islam.
And before you came here, you want to be known as a government for everyone, a legitimate government.
Do you accept that women have the right to work?
- [Translator] Yes, within their own framework.
- Which means what in their own framework?
Can they be lawyers, can they be judges?
Can they run for parliament like they used to?
I know they're working in hospitals.
I know there's some teachers working.
I know they're working in civil service and in your ministry.
But many tell us that they feel that the Taliban wants them to stay at home.
And they're afraid of some of the edicts that has a very chilling effect.
- [Translator] We keep naughty woman at home.
[Sijaruddin chuckles] - Okay, you need to explain that joke.
'Cause people will think that's official policy, and maybe it is.
What does that mean, naughty?
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - [Translator] What I am saying is that the international community is raising the issue of women's right a lot.
Here in Afghanistan, there are Islamic, national, cultural, and traditional principles.
Within the limit of those principles, we are working to provide them with opportunities to work, and that is our goal.
By saying naughty women, it was a joke referring to those naughty women, who are controlled by some other sides, to bring the current government into question.
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - Okay, so what you mean is women who are protesting their legitimate rights, because your ministry and your police have been cracking down on them.
So are you saying that women, or any other group, have no right to protest for their rights?
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - [Translator] To talk about this issue, at the moment, the relationship between the new government in Afghanistan and the international community is not based on official interaction, which has caused many people to lose their jobs, and push them into poverty.
Some movements are being provoked against the government from outside.
Nevertheless, all these problems will be peacefully resolved with the passing of time.
The current poverty and unemployment have not only affected women in Afghanistan, but it has also affected many others.
Even half of our mujahideen comrades have not been employed yet.
The single issue of women's right has been put forward.
But in general, what has created all these obstacles is the sanction and the lack of official interaction with the world community, that has also pushed many people into poverty and joblessness.
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - Now you may think that about women's rights, but I still have heard that there are some very conservative leaders of the Taliban, mostly in Kandahar, who don't believe in women's rights.
And I guess I want to know, is there a split in the Taliban?
And is the Taliban still an ideological movement?
Or is it, are you trying to be a governing pragmatic body?
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - [Translator] There is no division in the government to split Kabul from Kandahar.
You may have seen statements from Sheikh Saheb, supreme leader, about how committed he is to women's right.
However, they might be different expectation and ways of thinking.
If you look at the other countries too, you can see that there are different viewpoints.
This is a baseline statement, that there's a split among the Taliban.
There's a singular ideology to ensure and save God the rights that Islam has given to women, and no one is opposing it.
But it's just a matter of how to approach it.
For instance, in Afghanistan, there are people as you mentioned, who have viewpoints like the ones in the previous governments, that had different approach.
Then there is the Islamic Emirate, which has its own rules, which have been, and will be proposed.
The Islamic Emirate is committed to safeguarding the rights of women.
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - One last question on this issue.
The world got very upset, because there was an edict this past week or so, which said that all Afghan women had to cover their faces and wear the long chadari, they call it a burka.
Is that right?
Do all Afghan women have to cover their faces?
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - [Translator] If we talk about the [indistinct], there is hijab, education, and what?
Hijab is an order according to the Islamic Sharia.
Since the claim of our movement, was that what we want is the implementation of a sacred Islamic government system in this country.
Within the Islamic government, we are committed to the rights of everyone.
We are not forcing women to wear hijab, but we are advising them, and preaching to them from time to time.
Hijab is also creating a dignified environment for women's education and work.
Hijab is not compulsory, but as an Islamic order that everyone should implement.
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - Okay, that's interesting.
You are still called an acting government, an interim government.
And when you first came in, you said that we would agree on a new inclusive political system, in which the voice of every Afghan is reflected, and where no Afghan feels excluded.
That's from what you wrote.
But that hasn't happened.
There's no movement towards bringing in other political parties, to bringing in other members of the, I don't know, previous government, different ethnicities, different parts.
You know what I'm saying?
Are there any elections planned?
Will there be a parliament?
What is this country going to look like?
Will there be democracy?
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - [Translator] About inclusivity, I said earlier that if the transition of power had happened in a peaceful manner, a lot of challenge would not have existed.
Here, a plot was used to abandon the Afghan society in an environment of mistrust.
By inclusivity, if we are referring to the inclusion of people in the government from Afghanistan's different ethnicities and tribes, that has already been implemented.
But those officials who were part of the previous regime, for us, gaining their trust and ensuring their security was more important than including them in the new government.
We have been working to build trust among those people.
But the decision to replace the current acting government with a permanent independent one, lies with our leadership to make, and depends on our relations on international, economic, and security levels.
Once the environment of trust is established, this is going to happen.
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - When you said there's gonna be new government, will there be elections?
I forgot to ask you that.
Will there be elections for a new, for the permanent government?
[Sijaruddin speaking foreign language] - [Translator] It is a premature question.
- Okay, well, we'll be watching.
Thank you for your time.
Interior minister, Sijaruddin Haqqani, thank you for joining us today.
- [Translator] Thank you very much.
- A lot to digest there.
And afterwards his aid said that this interview was designed to open a new chapter with the West and the rest of the world.
Well, we'll see.
The Taliban has just announced that it will dissolve the human rights commission and other key agencies.
They blame budget issues.
It is not easy to speak out for women's rights, but Mahbouba Seraj is bravely making her voice heard, and she has insisted on staying in her country.
Although she often travels abroad, drumming up support for the women here.
Tonight, she's at a conference in Brussels, from where she's joining me now.
Mahbouba Seraj, welcome to the program.
Can you just give me your, you know, impressions of what you heard from Sirajuddin Haqqani, who is the most senior leader, frankly, in the government right now.
- Thank you, Ms Amanpour for having me on your show.
I find the whole thing... [Mahbouba chuckles] I find it interesting.
That's all I can say at this point.
Because I am looking at the situation that, you know, as the people of Afghanistan, as the citizens of that country, and as the half of the population, how different we look at the whole situation of men, and women, and rights, and what is ours, and Islamic interpretation, and everything that they were talking about.
I mean, the difference is like a day and night amongst us.
And also the question of one other thing, which was also very interesting that Mr Haqqani said, is the question of trust.
The same way that they do believe that, they don't have any trust towards the international community, neither the international community towards them.
Well, the same thing goes with the women of Afghanistan at this point.
There is no trust amongst us, and there is fear.
Of course, there is fear.
Because the reason why there is fear is because we can die in a second.
They can come and kill us.
So that fear from death is the only thing holding a lot of us women, from standing up, from talking, from saying, from doing.
And at the same time, we are dying all the time.
And the reason why we are dying is because we don't get access to food.
Our children are dying, our families are dying, our young girls are dying.
I mean, are going to be so depressed that... I mean, the rate of suicide has gone high in this country, but nobody's really looking at it.
So everything is getting very strange and very weird.
And that is because in that level, we don't trust each other.
They don't trust us.
They don't wanna talk to us. - Right.
- And not only to us.
- Okay, so lemme... - It's all about they don't wanna talk the people about Afghanistan either.
- Sorry, I just wanna break in and ask you a question along the lines that you're laying out.
Look, first and foremost, Mahbouba, we try to get an Afghan woman to come and speak to us right here in Kabul.
And we had very, very little success. - Yeah.
- In fact, none, none, no success.
That is why we're talking to you. - Absolutely.
- And we wanted to talk to you, because you're an Afghan woman who still lives in this country.
But this is what an aid, an international official told us, who works on women's issues here today.
Basically he said, 'Alas, all are too terrified, a terrible reality and unfortunate that diasporas take the lead.'
So we do know that a lot of brave Afghan women who fled are taking the lead in raising the voices for the support of the women here.
But the fact of the matter is... Well, just lemme ask you first and foremost, are you worried for your own security, your own ability to keep doing this back here in Kabul, if you speak out?
- Well, Ms Amanpour, I have made a promise to myself.
And the reason why I am staying in Afghanistan is because of that promise.
The women of Afghanistan, whether the Taliban knows that, believe that, or don't believe that, or whatever which way, which way they're looking at it, they really do need me.
And I need to be there in order to get the help that I can get to them, in order to raise their voices in the world, in order to raise their concern in the world.
Because our lives has not stopped in Afghanistan.
The women of Afghanistan's lives have not stopped in Afghanistan.
So [indistinct] because they thought about coming.
There are things that still we can do and we have to do.
And I made a promise that we are going to do that.
I wanna look after them, I want to be their voice.
Whoever one of them that needs me and wants me, the ones that don't want to God be with them, it's okay.
But otherwise, this is a promise that I made to myself and I made to Allah.
So, this is what I'm doing.
And by doing it the way I'm doing it, I'm trying to be respectful of everybody.
I'm trying to consider the rights of everybody.
At the same time, given the Taliban can raise their voices and say anything they want to the world.
We should have the right to be doing the same thing.
We should have a voice.
We should raise our concern.
We should say that these are the things that are wrong.
Like for example, regarding the worker and covering our faces, this is something that there is one interpretation, that the face should be covered.
Face, according to Quran and according to what we know, and our Hanafi, you know, a part of the religion, because we are Sunni.
You know, it's what?
It's a discussion that has never been sold.
- Lemme ask you this.
The fact of the matter is as you know. - Yeah.
- That many Afghan women who have been educated, who have had jobs over the last 20 years, who are professionals, who are activists, who are elected officials here, et cetera, et cetera, those who could have fled.
But, but tens of millions of Afghan women will not be able to leave the country, have to keep living here. - No.
- Have to live under this government.
So how do you... - Exactly.
- See a way forward?
And do you see any possibility?
Even if somebody like yourself engaging, for instance with a minister, Haqqani, after what he said publicly.
- I would love to.
I would love to sit down and talk to him.
I do believe in having communications.
If we don't talk, if we don't sit down across from a table and talk to each other, how are we going to make any difference?
Well, God has created us, He gave us humanity in human beings, a brain, and a tongue.
And both of these have to be used.
We have to talk with our tongue, and we have to think with our brain.
God does not say, that you because you are a woman, you are stupid, and a man is more intelligent.
God did not say that.
God said you are both equal.
The one in my eyes closer to me is the one that has more [indistinct], and has more belief in me and thus worship me more.
That's the the only difference.
Otherwise, you know, what is the difference?
What is the difference?
I can talk.
I say my prayer, I am a good human being.
So all the women of Afghanistan, what did they do wrong, what did they do wrong?
They have no right to [indistinct], why?
They can't breathe the air, why?
They shouldn't eat, why?
They can't go to school, why?
They cannot work, why?
Could somebody, somebody please tell why?
Why, that's all I'm asking.
Why is it that a brother of mine has the right?
Why is it that... - Mahbouba, can I ask you?
Can I ask you?
- Tell my sons.
And my daughter doesn't have the right, why?
This... - Okay, Mahbouba Seraj, thank you so much indeed for joining us.
Thank you.
- You're very welcome.
Thank you. - Very powerful.
Thank you so much for being with us, and we hope to see you when you get back here.
And while the US government has always been laser focused on the global war on terror, even here, of course, domestic terror driven by racial hate has been growing exponentially.
Today, President Joe Biden and first lady Jill Biden, paid their respects and visited the families of the victims of Saturday's mass shooting in Buffalo, New York.
This is what he said.
- Jill and I bring you this message from deep in our nation's soul.
In America, evil will not win I promise you.
Hate will not prevail, and white supremacy will not have the last word.
White supremacy is a poison.
It's a poison running through our... It really is.
[audience clapping] Running through our body politic.
And it's been allowed to fester and grow right in front of our eyes.
No more.
I mean, no more.
- 10 People were killed.
Authorities say it was a racially motivated attack by an 18-year-old, self described white supremacist.
Tom O'Connor is a domestic terrorism expert and retired FBI official, and he's joining Hari Sreenivasan.
This interview is part of 'Exploring Hate', our ongoing series on antisemitism, racism, and extremism.
- Christiane, thanks.
Tom O'Connor thanks so much for joining us.
You have been investigating so many different forms of terrorism, especially domestic terrorism for so long now.
When you hear that a mass shooting like this happens, most of us would immediately say, 'This person's not in their right mind.'
That this person went out of their way to make sure that he was telling the world that he was in his right mind.
When you look at what motivated him, it's not so different from, or it is exactly the same as what so many of these shooters say.
- Well, if you're able to read the manifesto, it really has taken from numerous other shooters or domestic terrorist, pieces of their ideology.
And it goes all the way back to a man named David Lane, who was part of the Order, which was a terrorist group that robbed banks in armored cars, and killed Alan [indistinct], a Jewish talk show host in San Francisco.
Or excuse me, in Colorado.
And this ideology, the 14 words of David Lane, is in that person's building, and why they did this, right?
So it is so many different ideologies that have been built into this.
But it's nothing new, unfortunately.
This great replacement theory has been weaved in throughout many different, very sad events and attacks that have taken place in the United States.
- I ask that question about ideology, and whether there is something that binds these things together, because we often have a tendency to look at these as lone wolf factors.
And I think that minimizes the connection that actually exists.
That this isn't just an individual by themselves, that there is an idea.
And if you don't kinda root that out, then you're gonna have more of these.
- Well, we talk about lone actors, lone wolf actors.
I don't know if there is such a thing, as a lone wolf actor, any longer, with social media being so prevalent, and the ability to communicate on encrypted apps, on social media platforms.
People are pulling from narratives, and conspiracy theories and radical ideologies, to build themselves to the point where they attack.
So that person may have no human contact with a group or individuals.
But clearly in this case, that person had contact, through whether it be historical readings of the Christ Church shooters background.
So it wasn't done in a vacuum.
- He even laid out how he was radicalized, and he tells you which sites that he went to, and what sorts of things that he started to read, and then how he felt that he was getting the truth or his eyes were opened.
I mean, what was interesting to me is you could substitute what he's saying with someone who was a terrorist in a different part of the world, who was radicalized by listening to speeches online.
It's the same thing.
- It really is the same thing.
If you're using force of violence to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, or to influence the policy of a government, whether you are ISIS, Al-Qaeda, or a person who is driven by the Great Replacement Theory, the White Power Movement, the act is the same.
If you walk into a store and kill a number of people, what is the difference between a white terrorist and someone from another race who does this?
It's terrorism.
It's what has driven the person to this.
And as you said, they go online, they become... They believe everything they read.
And they really go to an echo chamber of people, who already believe what they believe, and it just reinforces it.
And the sad part is that the rhetoric that is out in the normal, we call it mainstream, has taken in some of this.
So that this radical theory of the Great Replacement, the white genocide has seeped its way into a much more mainstream rhetoric and conspiracy theories.
That because of the ability to do quote-unquote research on the internet, people are going down that rabbit hole much easier than they would in the '90s, early 2000s, when people had to literally go to a meeting and sit down.
They had to have that contact with someone.
Now they don't have to do that, they don't have to leave their own houses.
And as this person laid right out, that that's how they radicalized.
And that's how they got to the point where they felt that they had to act.
- So lemme ask the question, I guess, that most law enforcement are probably struggling with.
Which is, how do you protect the 1st Amendment, which protects this type of speech, but intercept these actors before, hopefully before they commit a mass tragedy like this?
- Right, so that is the million-dollar question.
Because when you're talking about international terrorism, ISIS, Al Qaeda, the big players we talk about, they don't have the protection of the constitution, if they're coming from another country to attack us.
When you talk about domestic terrorism, domestic terrorists, if they're US citizens, they enjoy the rights under the constitution.
And the 1st Amendment is not called the 1st Amendment because it's kind of important.
It is the 1st Amendment.
And in many cases, there are times when there may be a, I wouldn't call it a red flag, but a flag.
And that flag really can't be investigated or looked at very much because it is 1st Amendment-protected.
And the 1st Amendment, with the FBI as the lead for countering terrorism, the 1st Amendment wins.
And it should, because we have to be very, very careful, that slippery slope of going down and investigating people for that free speech, for that peaceable assembly.
If you start eroding that 1st Amendment, where do you stop, right?
'Cause speech that you don't enjoy, or I may disagree with, you still have a right to say it.
The bottom line is, it's the violence.
And it's the violence that crosses you past that 1st Amendment.
And to be able to find that there's a potential for violence, sometimes it is not as clear as, you know, the person made a statement.
It can be... It's a very, very fine line, that the law enforcement has to walk, and the 1st Amendment should always be the winner in that.
And sadly, that means that potentially something they get by.
But I guarantee you, they are working every single day to try and make sure that those potential for violence is intercepted in some way, that they can get in front of that violence so that it doesn't take place.
- I understand why the security apparatus in the United States after 9/11 shifted to look at the rest of the world, because we perceived our threats to be primarily from outside.
And I don't think those threats are gone, but... - Not at all.
- I'm saying in the past several years, America has been repeatedly attacked in this way from inside.
And I'm wondering whether we have equal amount of resources dedicated to trying to figure out how to get to the domestic violent terrorists that exist in the US.
- Well, your example is spot on.
After 9/11 resources were shifted in law enforcement, in the FBI, across the United States government, to address those potential threats and threats from international terrorists.
That didn't mean that they hired a thousand new agents to go work international terrorism.
That meant that they took agents from other violations, and moved them to international terrorism.
And I don't disagree with that.
That was the threat.
9/11 was horrendous, and we needed to be on top of that.
Sadly, there were not as many of us left working domestic violent extremists, and it was across the United States government, a second tier violation.
And I think anybody who worked these types of violations would agree with that.
And you have to look at it.
If you look at the violations for international terrorism, to be able to charge people with acts of international terrorism, there's a plethora of charges that can be brought.
If you look at the definition of domestic terrorism, using force or violence to intimidate or coerce a civilian population, or to influence a policy of a government, that's the definition.
There is no penalty.
No one is being charged with domestic terrorism.
You see people charged with hate crimes, and that may very well fit.
But domestic terrorism may fit also.
There are no penalty.
There is no penalty in the United States for the vast majority of acts under domestic terrorism.
People are charged with shooting, they're charged with homicide, they're charged with state and local crimes, but there is no penalty attached to the definition of domestic terrorism.
So if that is a fact, which it is, how serious are we taking this problem, if we don't even have a penalty for it?
People are charged, and don't go to jail.
But I still think we need to, to say this person is a domestic terrorist.
And I think that in the United States and domestically here, we have a difficult time saying, 'My next door neighbor may be a domestic terrorist.'
But if you show up and shoot people for a political reason, that's terrorism.
If you yelled Allahu Akbar while you were doing that, people would have no problem calling it terrorism.
But because it is one of us, they have a difficult with that.
And the law has a difficult problem with that.
They can't... We have not come to the point where we say, domestic terrorism is against the law.
And I think that is an issue.
How do you regulate or review the number of domestic terrorism cases in the United States, if there is no way to do that?
You can look up the number of international terrorism arrests, convictions.
Look up domestic terrorism arrests, and convictions, you won't find any, because there is no penalty.
- So if it is on Congress, to even come up with a penalty for domestic terrorism, I wonder then whether we have the political will.
'Cause there was a recent poll out in associated press.
NORC did a recent poll that found that, one in three Americans, and 50% of Republicans, feel that there is a deliberate attempt, that native born Americans are going to be replaced by immigrants.
- It is the mainstreaming of a very radical ideology.
Clearly it has led people to use extreme force or violence, in an effort to stop that white genocide.
And it is the mainstreaming of that, which has made it much more acceptable for the average person in the percentages you just mentioned.
- Recently, we just heard representative Liz Cheney said about her own party, that she holds the GOP leadership responsible to enable this kind of white nationalism.
Regardless of your party affiliation, at some point it just seems irresponsible to stay silent when this is happening.
- Well, and I think you're right.
I mean, Liz Cheney is a very conservative person.
And she is at least saying that, hey, words matter.
And it's wrong to push this theory into your news conferences and your mainstream.
And there has to be some responsibility for that.
And I was glad to see her do that, come out with that statement.
But there has been, there have been attempts to bring a penalty to domestic terrorism.
I would love to see that happen.
I honestly don't see it happening, because of the polarization in the United States right now.
Acts such as this should be, it shouldn't have a political bank.
There should be not left and right saying that, 'Oh, I get this is wrong.
But the violence is the violence.
I don't care if it comes from the left, or if it comes from the right.'
- Tom, I kinda wanna look at, in the arc of your career, when you think about how America was positioned to tackle this 10 years out, 15 years ago versus today.
Do you feel like there's a potential for it to get worse now?
Or, I mean, do you see the possibility of another Timothy McVeigh style attack?
- Well, I've said it many times, right now, the environment when the, the polarization within the United States at this time, and the use of social media, which was not there in the '80s and '90s, or early 2000s.
The ability for people to view this radical thought and buy into it, is worse now than it ever has been.
If you look at individuals, the potential for people to go to the point of using serious violence, I think the potential is there for this to occur more frequently than it ever has, and the potential for the Timothy McVeigh type of a mindset.
If you look at the personal grievances that were there in the '90s, when Timothy McVeigh blew up the Murrah Federal Building and killed 168 people, including 19 small children.
The economy was bad.
He felt grievances related to the overreach of the government.
So, all of these things, if you look now, if you have an economy which is not good.
If you look at the restrictions in place by the government for the pandemic, this is believed to be an overreach.
The mandates for the shots, overreach of the government.
I mean, the gas prices, all of these things work into a person's personal grievances.
All these things that are the pressures that are coming on to people.
They don't wake up and say, 'This is all my fault.'
It's usually the government's fault, right?
The president that's in power, the Congress that's in power.
So, the anti-government sentiments right now are higher than I've seen them in the 23 years that I worked domestic extremism.
And there have been ebbs and flows, but it's higher now than it has been.
So I think we need to take it very seriously, and we need to make sure that we get in front of, that law enforcement gets in front of any potential violence and acts on it, as we move forward towards the next series of election cycles.
And the rhetoric continues into 2022-2024, that the possibility of additional attacks, I don't even think it's, I don't think it's a possibility.
I think it's very likely to happen, it will.
- Retired special agent Tom O'Connor, thanks so much for joining us.
- Right, thank you very much.
I appreciate the opportunity to talk to you.
- Crisis in America.
And finally, tomorrow we will continue to examine the crisis here, women's rights under Taliban rule, with the longtime activist and former peace negotiator, Fatima Gailani.
She was one of four women who sat across from the Taliban during the Doha peace talks back in 2020.
We assess the reality for tens of millions of women, who have no choice, but to stay and navigate this new Afghanistan.
And that's it for tonight.
Thank you for watching 'Amanpour and Company' on PBS, and our special Afghanistan coverage.
Join us again tomorrow night.
Good night from Kabul.
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