Beth Macy Returned Home to Ohio to Reckon with America’s Divisions

>>> WE TURN NOW TO POLARIZATION IN AMERICA, WHICH IS EXPLORED IN A NEW MEMOIR BY AUTHOR AND JOURNALIST BETH MacY, AND HEARD COUNT OF HER BONO, OHIO, SHE INVESTIGATES RADICALIZATION AND THE STRUGGLING EDUCATION SYSTEM IN RURAL AMERICA, SHE JOINS THE DIVISIONS HAVE BEEN STOKED OVER THE LAST DECADE.

>> THANK YOU.

BETH MacY, WELCOME BACK TO THE SHOW.

>> THANKS, WALTER.

>> YOUR NEW BOOK IS CALLED "PAPER GIRL", LET'S START WITH THE OBVIOUS QUESTION, WHAT DID YOU LEARN FROM BEING A PAPER GIRL BACK IN URBANA.

>> WELL YOU CAN'T CALL IN SICK BECAUSE THEY GET REALLY MAD WHEN THEIR PAPER DOESN'T SHOW UP, SO WORK ETHIC, AND ALSO, I SAY IT WAS GREAT TRAINING GROUND FOR BEING A REPORTER BECAUSE YOU HAD TO DEAL WITH ALL KINDS OF PEOPLE AND YOU HAD TO NEGOTIATE WHEN PEOPLE DIDN'T WANT TO PAY YOU, ON COLLECTION DAY, AND, JUST GREAT SKILLS ALL THE WAY AROUND.

>> YOU TALK ABOUT THE SKILLS AND THAT'S IN THE BOOK, YOU TALK A LOT ABOUT EDUCATION BUT YOU SAY EDUCATION ISN'T JUST ABOUT LEARNING KNOWLEDGE, IT'S ABOUT LEARNING THE SOCIAL SKILLS.

IS THAT WHAT WE ARE FAILING TO LIKE YOU WRITE ABOUT?

>> MY FIRST CALL TO A SCHOOL COUNSELOR 40 YEARS AFTER I LEFT THE SCHOOL, WHEN I SAID, WHAT IS THE BIGGEST CHALLENGE TODAY WITH GETTING KIDS COLLEGE READY OR WORKFORCE READY, SHE TELLS ME, IT'S THEY DON'T KNOW HOW TO HUMAN, I SAID, WHAT DO YOU MEAN?

THEY DON'T HAVE THE SOCIAL SKILLS, THEY DON'T KNOW THE BASIC SKILLS THAT I LEARNED FROM DELIVERING THE PAPER EVERY AFTERNOON, SO, I THOUGHT I WAS GOING TO WRITE A STORY ABOUT, AND I DID, ABOUT HOW WE DON'T HAVE THE STRUCTURE IN PLACE TO ALLOW POOR KIDS TO GO TO COLLEGE WHICH ESSENTIALLY SAVED MY LIFE, BUT AFTER SPENDING TWO YEARS IN URBANA, IT'S MORE A STORY ABOUT HOW OUR K-12 SCHOOLS ARE DECLINING SUCH THAT PEOPLE ARE DROPPING OUT, NOT SHOWING UP, THERE'S A HUGE ATTENDANCE PROBLEM, PARTICULARLY AFTER COVID, AND OUR PUBLIC SCHOOLS, WHICH ARE THE FOUNDATION OF OUR DEMOCRACY, ARE IN REALLY ROUGH SHAPE.

REPORTER AND THE BOOK CHRONICLES THE FACT THAT LOCAL JOURNALISM HAS DECLINED.

IS THAT RELATED TO THE FACT THAT PEOPLE IN YOUR FAMILY, PEOPLE IN YOUR TOWN, THEY DON'T HAVE THEIR HAIR ON FIRE ABOUT ISSUES INTERNATIONAL -- >> I TELL THE STORY ABOUT MY BROTHER-IN-LAW, JOHN, WHO BECAME VERY POLITICIZED STARTING OFF WITH RUSH LIMBAUGH AND FOX, AND IN THE MID TEENS SAID HEY JOHN, HOW ARE YOU DOING KAS I ONLY VISITED ONCE OR TWICE AND HE SAID, DEPLORABLE!

AND HE WANTS TO IMMEDIATELY START, YOU KNOW, DEBATING ME AND MY SISTER WOULD HAVE TO INTERVENE AND SAY WE DISCUSSED THIS, JOHN, NO POLITICS, AND YET, WHEN I'M STARTING TO WORK ON DOPE SICK, IT COMES OUT IN 2018, IT'S POSSIBLE FOR JOHN TO GO TO THE LIBRARY AND HAVE SOMEBODY OVERDOSE IN THE STALL NEXT TO HIM AND HE HAS NO IDEA THAT THERE'S A HEROIN EPIDEMIC, BECAUSE THE STORIES AREN'T EVEN BEING COVERED IN HIS LOCAL NEWS AND THE FACT-BASED INSTITUTIONS THAT MANY OF US RELY ON ARE NOW BEHIND A PAY WALL.

HE IS GETTING WHAT HE GETS FREE WITH HIS CABLE PACKAGE AND IS NOT READING THE LOCAL NEWS BECAUSE IT'S JUST A TINY, THIN, SHADOW OF ITS FORMER SELF AND HE IS HEARING EVERYTHING FROM BASICALLY OPINION WRITERS AND SPEAKERS WHO ARE SHOUTING AT HIM AND STIRRING UP HIS CENTRAL NERVOUS SYSTEM AND MAKING HIM ADDICTED TO VARIOUS ALGORITHMS.

>> BUT YOU SAY IN SOME WAYS HE'S OUT OF TOUCH BUT IS IT ALL SO THAT ALL LOT OF THE MEDIA GOT TOTALLY OUT OF TOUCH, TOO?

>> ABSOLUTELY, THANK YOU FOR POINTING THAT OUT.

YOU KNOW, WHEN'S THE LAST TIME YOU SAW A NATIONAL REPORTER REALLY EMBED IN A TOWN LIKE URBANA, OHIO, IT DOESN'T EXIST.

MOST OF OUR NEWS IS MANUFACTURED IN CITIES, LIKE WASHINGTON, NEW YORK CITY YOU KNOW, IT TOOK ME YEARS TO CONVINCE MY PUBLISHERS TO LET ME WRITE "DOPESICK" BECAUSE THEY DIDN'T SEE IT AS AN ISSUE THAT WAS HAPPENING IN NEW YORK CITY, I'M LIKE NO, WE'VE GOT A TERRIBLE HEROIN PROBLEM, IT'S BREAKING OUT IN OUR SUBURBS, IN OUR WEALTHY COMMUNITIES, AND THEY THOUGHT, ROANOKE, VIRGINIA, WAS JUST LATE GETTING IT.

SO, IF YOU DON'T TRAVEL IN THESE PLACES WHICH MANY PEOPLE DON'T, THEY ALL LIVE IN SILOS, YOU MIGHT NOT KNOW, AND GOING BACK TO MY FIRST BOOK WHICH CAME OUT IN 2014 WHICH WAS A STORY ABOUT THE AFTERMATH OF GLOBALIZATION, I MEAN, I REALLY THINK OF THOSE THREE BOOKS AS A KIND OF TRILOGY AND I WAS SEEING ALL OF THESE THINGS, YOU KNOW, AS EARLY AS 2012, BUT IT WAS HARD TO GET THE GATEKEEPERS TO PAY ATTENTION TO THEM.

>> ONE OF THE THINGS THAT STRUCK ME WHEN YOU TALK ABOUT EDUCATION IS THAT PEOPLE, KIDS ARE NOT GOING TO SCHOOL IN GREAT NUMBERS, AND THEY ARE NOT SHOWING UP, WHEN DID THAT START AND WHY?

>> IT STARTS BEFORE COVID BUT REALLY GETS EXACERBATED IN 2020, WITH COVID.

AND ONE OF THE MAIN PEOPLE I FOLLOW IS A WOMAN NAMED RICK PERRY WHO IS THE SCHOOL ATTENDANCE OFFICER AND SHE PUTS SOMETHING LIKE 150,000 MILES ON HER CAR EVERY YEAR TRAVERSING THE COUNTY, PICKING UP KIDS WHOSE PARENTS WON'T SEND THEM TO SCHOOL AND ONE OF THE GREAT SHOTS WAS HOW MANY FAMILIES WERE QUOTE, HOMESCHOOLING, NOT SAYING THEY ARE ALL NOT LEGITIMATE HOMESCHOOLING BUT BECAUSE HOMESCHOOLING IN THE STATE OF OHIO HAS BEEN DEREGULATED AND YOU NO LONGER HAVE TO HAVE TEACHERS SIGN OFF ON LESSON PLANS, THIS WAS A NEW LAW ENACTED BY THE STATE LEGISLATURE A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO, IT'S POSSIBLE NOW FOR A PARENT WHO JUST DOESN'T WANT TO GET UP IN THE MORNING, PERHAPS DOESN'T HAVE THE CAPACITY TO GET UP, SEND THEIR KIDS TO SCHOOL TO PULL THEIR KIDS OUT FROM SCHOOL, TO AVOID TRUANCY CHARGES AND SAY THEY ARE HOMESCHOOLED.

SO THAT WAS AN UNINTENDED CONSEQUENCE OF THAT LAW, I WOULD SAY, AND IT WAS REALLY SHOCKING TO SHADOW BROOKE PERRY AND TO JUST SEE THE LEVEL OF TRAUMA THAT SHE SEES ON A DAILY BASIS.

PEOPLE SEEKING DOGS AT HER, ASSAULTING HER, TEENAGERS, ASSAULTING HER.

IT REALLY BROUGHT THE MENTAL HEALTH CRISIS INTERVIEW.

>> ANOTHER ASPECT OF THE EDUCATION CRISIS, IS, PEOPLE NOT BEING ABLE TO SEAMLESSLY GO TO COLLEGE OR COMMUNITY COLLEGE, USING PELL GRANTS, AND OTHER THINGS.

IS THAT SOMETHING THAT WE COULD >> YES!

IF WE INVEST IN PEOPLE AND NOT CORPORATIONS AND BILLIONAIRES.

SO, WHEN I WENT TO COLLEGE IN 1982, I WENT TO A STATE COLLEGE, IT COST ABOUT 2+ GRAND A YEAR, THE PELL GRANT COVERED MY TUITION, ROOM AND BOARD, MY BOOKS, GAVE ME WORK-STUDY JOBS SO I COULD HAVE PIZZA AND BEER LIKE EVERYBODY ELSE.

TODAY THAT SAME STUDENT, I FOLLOW A YOUNG MAN NAMED CYRUS, HE COULD GO TO A FOUR-YEAR COLLEGE BECAUSE IT WOULD ONLY COVER 30%.

SO HIS MENTOR, HIS BAND DIRECTOR, HIS TEACHER, TALKS HIM INTO DOING A WELDING PROGRAM AT A COMMUNITY COLLEGE.

HE GETS FULL SCHOLARSHIPS FOR IT, AND HE DOESN'T REALLY UNDERSTAND THE MONEY, IT'S RURAL AMERICA, SO IF YOU LIVE IN A CITY YOU MAY NOT KNOW WE DON'T HAVE A BUS THAT GOES FROM URBANA TO MARYSVILLE TO SPRINGFIELD TO GET CYRUS TO HIS CLASSES AT THE COMMUNITY COLLEGE AND THE KID GOES THROUGH FIVE CLUNKER CARS IN THE COURSE OF A 10 MONTH PROGRAM.

FOUR FULL-TIME JOBS, I DIDN'T HAVE TO WORK FULL-TIME, AND THE FAMILY WITH SO MUCH TRAUMA AND DRAG ON HIS PSYCHE.

AND BY GOLLY, THE KID MAKES IT, AND IT'S A GREAT STORY, IT'S A STORY OF RESILIENCE, AND WHEN I SHARED THE STAGE WITH HIM JUST ABOUT 10 DAYS AGO, FOR THE LAUNCH OF THE BOOK I SAID CYRUS, WHAT MAKES YOU SO RESILIENT?

AND HE SAID I DIDN'T HAVE A FAMILY I COULD RELY ON SO I CREATED MY OWN COME OUT OF TEACHERS, COUNSELORS, IT'S THE SCHOOL.

HE'S GOING TO BE A GREAT SUCCESS ONE DAY, BUT WITHOUT A HARDIER EDUCATION SYSTEM, HE'S A UNICORN.

>> LET'S TALK ABOUT THIS KID, CYRUS, WAS ONE OF THE MAIN CHARACTERS IN THE BOOK AND IN SOME WAYS YOU SAID HE WAS THE COUNTERPART TO YOU, YOU WERE BOTH IN THE BAND, THAT SORT OF THING, TELL ME ABOUT HIS STORY, HOW YOU FOUND HIM AND WHY YOU MADE HIM THE CENTRAL CHARACTER.

>> WHEN I FIRST STARTED GOING HOME, I WOULD TALK TO TEACHERS AND COUNSELORS AND THE PRESENT BAND DIRECTOR BECAUSE I WAS LOOKING FOR A YOUNG ME, THAT WOULD HELP ME ILLUSTRATE THIS DATA THAT I WAS FINDING.

AND, THEY ALL SUGGESTED CYRUS JAMES, IS A SMALL TOWN, THEY ALL KNOW IN AND THEY ALL HELPED HIM.

THE MARCHING BAND, I WAS PRESIDENT OF THE BAND MY SENIOR YEAR, IS REALLY WHAT KEPT ME OUT OF JAIL, KEPT ME OUT OF TROUBLE, AND A GREAT AFFINITY FROM A BAND DIRECTOR WHO HAS LONG SINCE PASSED AWAY AND I SAW CYRUS HAD THAT WITH MR.

STAFF, WHO HE HAS HIM ENTERED IN HIS PHONE AS, DAD, I HAD ONE STABLE PARENT, CYRUS HAD ZERO, FOR A TIME HE LIVED WITH A CAREGIVER WHO MOLESTED HIM IN HIS EARLY TEENS WHILE HIS MOM WAS IN PRISON FOR DRUG RELATED CHARGES AND HIS DAD WAS ON HIS WAY TO AN OVERDOSE DEATH.

SO, HE REALLY NEEDED THE SUPPORT OF THESE FOLKS.

AND, YOU KNOW, WHEN I MET HIM, STORY REALLY ILLUSTRATES ALL THE DATA THEM FINDING ON THE GROUND.

>> THERE'S A SENTENCE IN YOUR BOOK THAT HIT ME AS I THINK YOU WOULD HAVE EXPECTED, IT'S, MY FAMILY HAD ONCE BEEN PROUD OF ME, SO WALK ME THROUGH THE FAMILY SAGA AND WHY YOU WOULD WRITE THAT SENTENCE?

>> WELL, I WAS THE FIRST PERSON IN THE FAMILY TO GO TO COLLEGE, I WAS THE MIDLIFE ACCIDENT.

AND THE ONLY ONE TO REALLY MOVE OUT OF STATE, AND WE ARE PRETTY DIFFERENT AND WHEN I STARTED ACHIEVING SOME SUCCESSES IN JOURNALISM, THEY WERE VERY PROUD OF ME BUT IN THE TEENS, DURING TRUMP'S FIRST TERM, YOU KNOW, MY BROTHER, WHO WAS MY CLOSEST IN AGE AND WE HAVE BEEN PRETTY CLOSE WITH, HE WOULD COME SEE MY KID WHEN THEY WERE IN PLAYS, UNFRIENDED ME ON FACEBOOK BECAUSE OF QUOTE, ALL THE LIBERAL CRAP YOU POST, AND I'M PRETTY CAREFUL ABOUT WHAT I POST, I POST FACT CHECKED ARTICLES TYPICALLY FROM THE NEW YORK TIMES OR THE WASHINGTON POST, INCLUDING SOME OF MY OWN ARTICLES, AND TO SORT OF HAVE MY BROTHER YOU KNOW, MALIGN MY PROFESSION, HAVE MY FRIENDS MALIGNED MY PROFESSION AND SAY THEY HATE THE MEDIA I SAID WELL YOU STILL LOVE ME, RIGHT?

YEAH, OF COURSE I LOVE YOU, WELL I'M THE MEDIA, TO AND WHEN I WRITE A PIECE FOR THE NEW YORK TIMES, THEY WILL ASSIGN SOME IVY LEAGUE GRADUATE WHO WILL SPEND THREE DAYS ON IT, MAKING SURE THAT MY OPINIONS ARE BASED ON REAL DATA, AND YOU KNOW, SHE CAME BACK TO ME WITH, WELL WHO FACT CHECKS THE FACT CHECKERS?

IT REALLY, ANGRY IN A WAY THAT I HADN'T SEEN BEFORE BUT SHE LATER APOLOGIZED, BUT AT SOME POINT, WE HAVE TO BE WE BELIEVE, AND, YOU KNOW, I WAS JUST AGAIN, REALLY SHOCKED AT THE LEVEL OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES, JUST RUNNING ROUGHSHOD OVER MY COMMUNITY.

>> THAT NOTION OF CONSPIRACY THEORIES, DONE IN THE RECESSES OF THE INTERNET, ALSO PLAYS AN TO YOUR EX-BOYFRIEND, BILL, WHO YOU DECIDED TO CALL OUT OF THE BLUE, I GUESS, FOR THE SAKE OF THE BOOK.

TELL ME ABOUT THAT STORY.

>> IT WAS DEFINITELY FOR THE BOOK, WALTER, I WASN'T TRYING TO GET BACK WITH MY EX- BOYFRIEND, NO, HE WAS ONCE THE MOST LIBERAL PERSON I KNEW, AND WE DATED LIKE FOR A YEAR IN 1985 OR SO, AND HE WAS A JOURNALIST, AND AS HE DESCRIBED IT, AND NPR TOTEBAG, PBS TOTEBAG CARRYING LIBERAL AND A MY EVENTS WHEN I WOULD TALK ABOUT MY OTHER BOOKS IN OHIO SAID, WOW, YOU WOULDN'T BELIEVE BILL, HE'S GONE FROM BERNIE, TO JILL STEIN, TO TRUMP, TOO, HE'S EVEN GONE FROM TRUMP.

I TEXTED HIM OUT OF THE BLUE, I SAID I WRITE BOOKS NOW I'M DOING THIS BOOK ON POLARIZATION AND I WOULD LOVE TO TALK TO YOU ABOUT YOUR SHIFT IN ATTITUDE SO WE SET UP, I MUST HAVE 10 HOURS OF RECORDINGS AND OVER THE COURSE OF A YEAR AND A HALF, I SAW HIM GET ANGRIER AND ANGRIER, AND UNTIL FINALLY, HE EMERGES AS THE SPOKESPERSON FOR THE ANTI-HAITIAN CONTINGENCY IN SPRINGFIELD, OHIO, IN THE LEAD UP TO THE 24 ELECTION WHERE VANCE AND TRUMP SAYS THEY ARE EATING THE PETS, THEY ARE EATING THE DOGS AND THERE HE IS ON PBS NEWS HOUR AND THERE HE IS, ALL OVER THE NEWS, THE FRONT PAGE OF THE SPRINGFIELD PAPER, AND HE IS LEADING RALLIES, AND HE'S HOSTING THINGS ON TWITTER OR X, ABOUT, THE GREAT REPLACEMENT THEORY, AND IN FEBRUARY, I HAD FINISHED THE BOOK, BUT I HAD TO REWRITE SOME OF THE END BECAUSE HE DIDN'T BELIEVE IN OBAMACARE, HE WAS 61 WHEN I FIRST MET HIM AGAIN, HE DIDN'T HAVE HEALTH INSURANCE BECAUSE HE THOUGHT IT WAS A RACKET ON THE MIDDLE CLASS, AND IN FEBRUARY, HE GETS PNEUMONIA, AND HE WAITS TOO LONG TO GO TO THE HOSPITAL, AND HE DIES, AND WHEN I TALKED TO HIS DAUGHTER, SOME WEEKS LATER, SHE BASICALLY DESCRIBED THE SAME THING THAT BILL HAD DESCRIBED ABOUT HOW HE FELT THE DEMOCRATS HAD TURNED ON HIM AND HIS COMMUNITY TURNED ON HIM, WHEN HE WOULDN'T VOTE FOR HILLARY CLINTON, AND HE FOUND HIS COMMUNITY ON THE INTERNET INSTEAD.

HE WOULD WATCH AT THE HEIGHT OF THIS WHEN I FIRST MET HIM, HE WAS WATCHING HIS NEWS FROM WELL- KNOWN RUSSIAN PROPAGANDA SO ANGRY, AND HIS DAUGHTER SAYS THE INTERNET KILLED MY DAD.

>> YOUR BROTHER, TIM, IS AMONG THOSE WHO UNFRIENDED YOU ON FACEBOOK, BUT ONE OF THE NICE THINGS ABOUT THIS BOOK IS THAT YOU FINALLY HAVE A RECONCILIATION WITH HIM, AND SOMEWAYS THAT'S A METAPHOR WITH HOW WE CAN SOLVE SOME OF THESE GRANDER PROBLEMS, TELL ME ABOUT THAT.

>> THANKS FOR UNDERSTANDING THAT.

WE HAVEN'T SPOKEN IN A COUPLE OF YEARS, BECAUSE I WAS GOING BACK REGULARLY, I WOULD SPEND, FOR TWO YEARS I WOULD SPEND ABOUT A WEEK TO A MONTH IN URBANA AND I WOULD VISIT WITH MY FAMILY AND INTERVIEW MY FRIENDS AND ALL THESE OTHER PEOPLE AND HIM AND I STARTED SPENDING TIME TOGETHER, AND EVERY BOOK EVENT I DO, PEOPLE SAY HOW ARE YOU GOING TO GET THROUGH THANKSGIVING AND I SAY YOU'VE GOT TO SPEND TIME PEOPLE AGAIN.

AND ONE OF THE THINGS IN YOUR FAMILY, YOU MIGHT DISAGREE ON POLITICS BUT WHAT ARE THE THINGS IN YOUR FAMILY THAT YOU REMEMBER FONDLY, THAT YOU ARE PROUD OF, AND WITH MY FAMILY, WE LOVE TO FISH, WE DIDN'T HAVE MONEY BUT WE COULD AFFORD TO LIKE GET OUR OWN NIGHTCRAWLERS AND GO OUT TO MUZZY'S LAKE AND GO FISHING AND THAT WAS SOMETHING WE DID.

SO A COUPLE OF YEARS AGO MY HUSBAND AND I BOUGHT THIS MODEST CABIN IN THE MOUNTAINS AND TIM LOVES TO FISH SO WE STARTED SPENDING TIME TOGETHER AND STARTED HAVING THESE REALLY MOVING CONVERSATIONS, POLITICS RARELY FACTORS IN.

AT ONE POINT I HAVE A NONVETERAN I --NON-BINARY CHILD NAMED SASHA AND SASHA IS A PROFESSIONAL MUSEUM -- MUSICIAN AND TIM HEARD THE MUSIC AND REALLY LIKES IT, AND HE STARTS COMING TO SHOWS, AND HE SAYS, IN A VERY TENDER VOICE HE SAYS, TELL ME ABOUT SASHA, DO THEY STILL DATE GIRLS QUESTION MARK BECAUSE THEY ASK SUCH CURIOSITY, I INSTINCTIVELY SAID, YES, THEY ARE DATING A YOUNG WOMAN NOW AND I MESS UP THE PRONOUNS, TOO, SO MEETING RELATIVES WHO MAY NOT HAVE THE SAME EXPERIENCE WITH DIVERSITY THAT WE HAVE, MEETING THEM WITH GRACE, NOT JUST JUDGING THEM OR BLOWING UP, GOING 0 TO 60 LIKE I DID WITH SOME OF MY OTHER RELATIVES, YOU KNOW, THAT TAUGHT ME A LOT, AND TIM REALLY HELPS ME DO THAT AND AT ONE POINT HE BRINGS UP THE FACT THAT HE'S GOING TO VOTE FOR RFK, THIS IS BEFORE TRUMP WAS THE MAIN CANDIDATE, AND I JUST HELD MY TONGUE, I SAID IN MY HEAD, NOT MY CUP OF WORMS BUT I'M NOT GOING TO SAY ANYTHING BECAUSE I'M LOVING THIS MOMENT WITH MY BROTHER, AND WE GOT EACH OTHER BACK.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU, WALTER.