Bishop A. Rob Hirschfeld: Clergy Must Prepare for a “New Era of Martyrdom”

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR: Now, as Trump’s immigration crackdown continues in Minnesota, even children are getting caught up in the surging ICE tactics there. This is a five-year-old, Liam Ramos, a preschooler, who was detained with his father in their driveway on Tuesday. This despite having a pending asylum case, according to their attorney. He’s one of four young kids who’ve been detained by ICE in Minnesota over the past two weeks. As outrage grows and protesters face off against ICE, Bishop A. Rob Hirschfeld has called on all the clergy to stand up for the vulnerable. And he spoke to Michel Martin about the power of speaking out at this critical time.

 

MARTIN: Thanks, Christiane. Bishop Rob Hirschfeld, thank you so much for speaking with us.

 

A. ROB HIRSCHFELD: It’s wonderful to be here. Thank you.

 

MARTIN: So you, you oversee congregations across New Hampshire. And I’m sure you travel even more widely beyond that. I mean, this is a moment that’s very I don’t know how to describe it — polarized. That’s one of those words that comes to mind. You know, some people are very supportive of the aggressive actions that this administration is taking. Other people are deeply shaken by it, deeply disturbed by it, and feel morally challenged by it. So, as you talked to your congregants, what are they telling you?

 

HIRSCHFELD: What they’re saying mainly is, setting aside any policy differences, is they’re expressing deep and profound grief, frustration, and sadness at the polarization among us and within us, and this sense of splintering it — that’s happening within their communities. They’re, they’re talking about no longer being really able to talk with their neighbors. What Timothy Snyder once wrote about in that little book “On Tyranny,” taking lessons from the 20th century that what one thing that happens is that neighbors become suspicious of one another. You don’t know what they, where they stand. And you don’t know if you’re gonna be vilified because you’ve, you’ve been labeled liberal or conservative, Republican or Democrat. 

 

And I think people have been coming to the Episcopal church because generally we want to learn how to be neighbors again. And it’s been something that, that has been a hallmark of our congregations for generations. Maybe to the point of maybe not appearing at all relevant or having any kind of traction in the society. We’re not typically engaged in the polemics, but we’re showing up with greater numbers. I’m definitely hearing that.

 

MARTIN: Well you came to national attention after remarks you made at a vigil for Renee Macklin Good, who’s the American woman — you know, wife, mom, mom of three — who was fatally shot by an ICE agent earlier this month. So the first thing I wanted to ask is, what brought you to that vigil?

 

HIRSCHFELD: You know, I’m not an activist. I find myself, I’m, I try to be a man of prayer and study of the Bible and a pastor. And I spent the week with other bishops in the Episcopal church in a monastery in Skyler, Nebraska, St. Benedict Center. And there were just a few bishops, one of whom was the bishop, the current bishop of Minnesota. And we were in prayer and studying God’s presence and spending a lot of time in silence on Wednesday morning of that week. Bishop Loya — Craig Loya — was called out of the meeting, of our sessions because of this slaying of Renee Good. And he needed to respond. 

 

And then it was just off the airplane from that retreat when I was asked to speak at this vigil on Friday night. It was a cold, rainy, dark night in Concord, right in front of the State House, when a number of things were said. And I spoke, I was speaking primarily, I was addressing the Christians who were in attendance at that vigil. Because I, I thought it was important that I, that I talk about our own tradition and our own faith.

 

MARTIN: Here’s what you said. You said, “I have told the clergy of the Episcopal Diocese of New Hampshire, of New Hampshire, to get their affairs in order to make sure that they have their wills written. Because it may be that now is no longer the time for statements, but for us, with our bodies, to stand between the powers of this world and the most vulnerable.” So I have a couple questions, which is, had you gone there prepared to make the statement, had this been in your mind and on your heart at that time? Or what, what was it that that brought that forward?

 

HIRSCHFELD: Well, I’ve made, I’ve made some statements before. I remember making statements during the first Trump administration, especially when he went across the street to talk in front of St. John’s Episcopal Church in Lafayette Square, and claimed the power of God behind him holding a Bible. What I said was no different, and nothing to what I have told the clergy or the congregations I’ve served for 35 years of ministry. That our baptismal vows tell us when we bless water over the water of baptism, we say, In this water, you are buried with Christ. You share in his death and in this water, you are also raised by him in his resurrection. We talk about, you know, sharing our life for others. And Jesus talks about taking up the cross. He talks about it to St. Peter. You know, this is not just a moment of, you know, pick up your cross and relax. I’m going to Jerusalem, Jesus says. This is at the core of the Christian faith, Anglican, Roman Catholic, Orthodox. It’s what I live and breathe. So it wasn’t anything new. 

 

In fact, the clergy in New Hampshire, they heard me talk about getting their, their spiritual place, you know, being, being — dwelling in that presence, that life-giving death-defying presence of God and having their wills prepared, getting their affairs in order, as much as their spiritual affairs in order. I told that to them, most recently, in Oct–  in September and October, it was shortly after the Charlie Kirk assassination. It was when we had just heard of a poll done, saying that Americans now believe that the way outta this political crisis that we’re in is through political violence. And that even Democrats are the fastest growing segment of those polled who believe that. So as an acknowledgement that we’re living in very violent, fraught, perilous times just by living our lives, just by dr — you know, dropping off a child at school. That whatever we’re doing we’re not seeking to stand in front of a loaded gun, but that is part of our tradition. I didn’t come necessarily prepared. I had no prepared remarks at that moment except what was in my heart.

 

MARTIN: You also used the phrase, “a new era of martyrdom.” And when you talk about martyrdom, what are you trying to name? 

 

HIRSCHFELD: Well, today, I’m in a monastery in Cambridge right now, and we just celebrated the Feast of Agnes and Cecilia, two young girls who didn’t marry in the way their parents or their local civic authorities wanted them to behave. And they were beheaded, or in slain. You know, they weren’t looking for that. 

 

Jonathan Daniels — white, middle class seminarian from New Hampshire — was simply wanting to come alongside Blacks in Selma and Hayneville, Alabama — gets thrown in jail and takes the blast of a shotgun from a deputy sheriff who was, who was aiming it at a Black girl. How many Black people or people of color or, you know, other minorities who were simply driving their car are accosted and don’t survive the drive? Do we call them martyrs or not? I see Renee Good… possibly — history will decide whether she’s a martyr, whether Charlie Kirk’s a martyr. But if we live our lives in freedom and love, who we’re called to love, stand with, who with whom we’re called to stand by without fear of the authorities of this world. And if that costs us our appearances, our status, perhaps our lives we’re to, we’re to be ready. 

 

MARTIN: Well what, well, what does that mean for you? Because as you’ve just, you’ve shared, you’re not, you don’t consider yourself an activist. But what does that mean for you?

 

HIRSCHFELD: What it means for me, I think, is that I, I go to rallies. I see rallies of those who may have a different viewpoint of mine in New Hampshire, right in front of the State House. There, there are No Kings rallies, there are rallies against — to counter gun violence. There are pro-life rallies, anti-abortion rallies. And I can tell you that in an open carry state like New Hampshire, there are people on the wings, on the, on the outskirts of those protests who are carrying weapons. 

 

And we see pretty belligerent words being spoken, if not by those, but by those who I might assume certainly have the right to hold them. It doesn’t bring you necessarily a sense of safety in that mix. And certainly after these events and in the multiple public slayings or attempts at slaying that we’ve seen, it doesn’t give us a sense of safety. So my words were, were sim — to say we need to be in a place of con, sort of contemplative depth. Because wherever we are called, however we are chosen or called to exercise our lives of freedom, to go about our days, New Hampshire, you know? Live free or Die. Renee Good was living free. 

 

MARTIN: And you, you’ve talked about the importance of standing with people rather than speaking for them. 

 

HIRSCHFELD: Right. 

 

MARTIN: So in a moment like this, does that call you and those who serve with you to any particular mission?

 

HIRSCHFELD: I think it’s, it’s less a vocal mission. Satements only go so far. At what point do our bodies become the statement? The word martyr is, comes from the Greek, which simply means a witness, bearing to the truth. I mean, you’re a witness as a journalist, you’re a martyr. I’m sure you don’t get all sorts of favorable comments. I certainly haven’t recently. I’ve gotten a lot. But I’ve gotten a few that have been quite disturbing. And they call me to a place of saying, Okay, whatever happens, oh God, whatever happens, I am yours. You are mine. You know, I know that you love me. I know you love the one who is purporting to be my enemy. 

 

MARTIN: You mentioned that you’ve gotten some some reaction. What, what, what are some of those reactions, if you don’t mind sharing.

 

HIRSCHFELD: I’m watching you. Some that have been labeled from ICE or law enforcement. I don’t know if they’re legitimate. You know, they’re, I, there’s some, you know, Stay in your lane. Threats. They’re veiled threats. There’s no saying, you know, watch, there’s a lot of Watch out. We’re watching you. And, If you want to be a martyr, I’m happy to oblige. We’ve been in touch with our, our very friendly, capable and competent law enforcement. Both, you know, both near our offices and, and where I live. And, you know, I feel I, I have to live without fear.

 

MARTIN: So Bishop, I know you’re aware that among the reactions are there are those who say that your words inflamed tensions or have the, have the possibility of inflaming tensions rather than calming them. I mean, to that end, the spokesperson for the Department of Homeland Security, which oversees ICE, called your remarks “absurd.” And he, and said that, “If you really want to take a stand for the vulnerable, you should stand by ICE agents who are increasingly under attack.” Like, what do you say to that?

 

HIRSCHFELD: Well, first of all, I’d say what St. Paul said is that the cross, the way of the cross, according to Paul, is always foolishness. It’s always absurd. It’s always, it’s always gonna upset those who have weapons at their disposal. It’s gonna always going to frustrate the way of the powerful. So, you know, I think the absurdity of it, I’ll take that. Yeah. It is absurd. It doesn’t make any sense that the way of those who are without power, without — who are unarmed, I pray at these protests, I hope — are gonna frustrate ICE and all the machinery that’s behind them. I meant in no way, shape or form to inflame or incite but to stand alongside those who find themselves vulnerable to the powers of this world who are seeking unjustly and unfairly and violently to exercise oppression. And to be said that way.

 

MARTIN: The White House as, as, as is their wont, has doubled down. They issued a statement saying, “No one should follow advice, encouraging them to commit crimes. Anyone who interferes with federal law enforcement operations is committing a crime and will be held accountable to the fullest extent of the law.” That comes from Abigail Jackson, who’s a White House spokesperson. Why do you, what do you respond to that?

 

HIRSCHFELD: I think we are, I think those who are showing up in Minneapolis and who may show up in other places, simply, we have a freedom of assembly. We have freedom of speech. Those are not crimes. They shouldn’t be in this country. Freedom to exercise our religion. I don’t see the crime.

 

MARTIN: It’s interesting, the, this administration is very, takes a very sort of expansive view of what constitutes a crime. But their argument seems to be that people who are, you know, following ICE agents, photographing ICE agents, et cetera objecting to the way they’re conducting themselves are committing crimes. And in some cases, they even called Renee Good, a terrorist, a domestic sort of terrorist. We can now see, because there are so many cameras, including the officer’s body cam footage, several — we’ve now seen this event from multiple angles. So I’m just wondering why do you think it is that people look at the same thing and see such different things?

 

HIRSCHFELD: I’m not a social scientist. And I, and I, and I haven’t really looked, you know, studied the video. I, but it’s, I mean, I’ve seen it enough to know, to feel, to be convinced that the powerful inflicted vengeance and rage on the, on, on the powerless. That we are all infected by human sin. We all act out of a sense of self protection. Renee Good was if, if she was in Minnesota and not in New Hampshire, which is live free or die, she was living free. And she was bearing witness —  I understand she was a Christian — but she was, she was bearing witness to American freedom. And this is the kind of oppression and tyranny that the best part of America rails against.

 

And she was made in the image of God — as was the ICE agent. And the, you know, we are caught up in a maelstrom of brokenness and catastrophe. And my, the only way I can see through it is through peaceful resistance. And that may mean that many of us, some of us, will give up their lives. Other of us may just give up their reputation or their comfort level by going to a school board meeting or a town meeting where they, you know, are talking about educational policy or segregation or voting rights. That’s a kind of martyrdom itself. And it all emanates from being steeped in this, this source of God’s love for us. It’s a kind of being grounded in the love of God, which is stronger than death. Jesus’s whole message was, come close, come close to the life of God. And, and it may take you to places you don’t want to go. So be ready.

 

MARTIN: Bishop Rob Hirschfeld. Thank you so much for talking with us. 

 

HIRSCHFELD: Thank you. I’m honored to be here and keep the faith.