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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to “Amanpour and Company.” Here’s what’s coming up.
Two massive wars America can make a difference. Will it? First in Gaza. A Hamas delegation heads to Cairo in a new ceasefire push. The Trump
administration does not oppose Israel’s plans for military escalation. Veteran Saudi diplomat, Prince Turki Al-Faisal joins me.
Then —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: There’ll be some swapping. There’ll be some changes in land.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Will Putin sway Trump over Ukraine? A last ditch call in to avert that from Zelenskyy and European allies. Veteran Russia expert
Michael Kimmage joins me.
And —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BROOKE PINTO, D.C. COUNCILMEMBER: He seemed to be talking about a city that is not my own. He was talking about a city where nobody is safe, where
nobody can walk down the streets.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: With the National Guard now on the streets of the U.S. capitol, Michel Martin speaks with D.C. Councilmember Brooke Pinto.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I’m Christiane Amanpour in London.
Donald Trump’s peacemaking efforts are in the spotlight as he heads to an Alaska meeting with Vladimir Putin to try to bring a halt to the Russia-
Ukraine War. We’ll discuss that and its potential pitfalls in a moment.
But first, to the one in the Middle East, where the White House is taking a hands-off approach to Israel’s renewed military threats. A Hamas delegation
is in Cairo for new talks on ending the Gaza War. Over the last few days, Trump’s envoy, Steve Witkoff, and the Israeli prime minister, Benjamin
Netanyahu, have been talking up a comprehensive deal to secure the release of all hostages alive and dead, to end the fighting, and to address Gaza’s
post-war governance.
Every day the war continues. Israel’s isolation grows as Palestinians die from Israeli attacks and from a lack of food and aid. The United Nations
now warns that starvation in Gaza is at the highest level since the fighting began. The hostages are also still stuck in this hellish
condition.
Recently, Arab and Muslim states, including Saudi Arabia, issued a joint call for Hamas to relinquish power in Gaza as part of efforts to end the
war.
Veteran diplomat, Prince Turki Al-Faisal has deep experience in the region. He served as Saudi’s ambassador — Saudi Arabia’s ambassador to the U.S.
and the U.K. He was also head of Saudi Arabia’s, main Foreign Intelligence Unit. So, welcome back to our program.
TURKI AL-FAISAL, FORMER SAUDI AMBASSADOR TO U.S. AND U.K. AND FORMER SAUDI HEAD OF INTELLIGENCE: Thank you, Ms. Amanpour. It is good to be back with
you.
AMANPOUR: So, there’s so much to discuss about the military and political, but I want to first ask you whether you think that anything is possible to
actually accomplish without an immediate halt to the massive humanitarian catastrophe, starvation, the dying of famine and hunger, the shooting of
Palestinians who try to get to these highly mismanaged aid operations. Do you think anything can really be done without that being addressed first?
AL-FAISAL: Well, it needs the United States to put its foot down. You know, in past history, America has put its foot down several times. I
remind you when President Eisenhower forced the British, the French, and the Israeli to withdraw from Egypt during the Suez Crisis. And I remember
when Mr. George Herbert Walker Bush forced Israel to attend the Madrid conference for a peace conference there. When Mr. Clinton at the Wye River
talks — forced Mr. Netanyahu himself to agree to the proposal put in the table at that time.
So, the U.S. has to put its foot down to prevent this genocide that is taking place at the hands of a psychopath. That’s the only way I can
describe him. He’s using the American cudgel to beat everybody up. Not just the Palestinians, but to prevent others from doing good for not just the
Palestinians, but for the whole area.
AMANPOUR: So, I assume when you use those words, obviously, the Israelis would deny that, but I assume you’re talking about Prime Minister
Netanyahu, and I wonder what — you’re talking about stopping others doing good as well. Do you mean yourself? I mean, in terms of Saudi Arabia and
the Arab states?
AL-FAISAL: No, I’m talking about the rest of the world. The Kingdom and the Arab states are doing their best. They’re the ones who got the rest of
the world now to recognize the State of Palestine, as deemed by the United Nations Security Council resolutions and as the mandate that was put after
the first World War initially proposed that there should be a Palestinian State. So, the Kingdom and its Arab partners are doing their best. It’s the
rest of the world that these things to be done, and particularly the United States government.
Prince Turki Al-Faisal, as you probably know, because you probably read him, the veteran Haaretz columnist, Gideon Levy, who’s done a lot of work
on the Palestinian side and has reported a lot of what’s going on. He actually came out with this, recognition is hollow lip service that the
hesitant and weak European governments are using to show their enraged public that they’re not holding their silence. People are being starved in
Gaza, and Europe’s reaction is to recognize a Palestinian State. Will this save starving Garzas? Israel can ignore these declarations with the U.S.
support.
So, you’ve just talked about how the U.S. needs to use its leverage, but do you believe that it’s a hollow statement?
AL-FAISAL: I don’t. If I did, I would not have to ask you — told you that the Arab states worked for that, and I think it’s important. It shows the
isolation of the United States and Israel in the world and it — and in as much as it had impact on the European public to come around and support a
Palestinian State to force their governments to do that. Hope it’ll work in the same way with the United States public and with the Israeli public.
We see the opinion in Israel is shrinking as far as Mr. Netanyahu is concerned. There are now more Israelis who want him to step down than
support him. In the United States, the hundreds of thousands of people who demonstrate in the streets and calling for a Palestinian State are
indication that the tide is turning there. So, I don’t think it is hollow.
Not only that, but by recognizing a Palestinian State with a border in the 67 years — the 67 borders as proposed by the U.N. Security Council
Resolutions 242 and 338, there will be a definition of what Israel cannot do on the West Bank, for example, on Gaza, and that will force the
Europeans to take more defined action against what Israel is doing. There will have to be economic consequences. There all will have to be military
consequences. They have to supply — stop supplying Israel with military hardware and other actions like that. And this is, I think, what the Arab
world is seeking, not just from the Europeans, but also from the United States.
AMANPOUR: So, you know that recently the chancellor of Germany, Friedrich Merz, did something quite extraordinary, suspended weapons supplies to
Israel. And obviously, given the terrible history of Germany, Nazi Germany, regarding the Jewish people, people took notice of what he did.
I want to ask you to react to what Netanyahu and his allies say, recognizing a Palestinian State is, quote/unquote, “rewarding the
terrorist,” rewarding Hamas. Do you believe that Hamas — that — do you think that it would be a reward for Hamas, whether you call it a reward or
not, or do you think that it would isolate Hamas? In other words, does Hamas want a two-state solution?
AL-FAISAL: Well, if you look at what the Saudi Arabia and France, for example, and the other countries that made a proposition recently at the
United Nations to end the fighting in Gaza, they stipulated that Hamas must be disarmed. They condemned Hamas’ actions on October 7th, and they were
very specific about what needs to be done of getting back the Palestinian Authority in — to rule, not just in Hamas, but also in the West Bank. So,
there is a different story to the one that Mr. Netanyahu is proposing.
There is no reward for Hamas here. Hamas is a terrorist organization that deserves to be outcast from any activity or rule in Palestine. But I would
also add that Mr. Netanyahu himself is a terrorist who should be kicked out of office in Israel. And yet, nobody’s calling for his removal and his
resignation and his trial, according to the International Court of Justice.
AMANPOUR: Hamas has been designated a terrorist organization by the U.S. and Europe. The Israeli government has not. So, I’m just putting that out
there. Netanyahu on the other hand has essentially just given a pretty rare interview to an Israeli television in which he sort of laid out his vision
for what’s going to happen next. There’s this idea of going in and occupying the last stronghold in Gaza, Gaza City, the last Hamas stronghold
in Gaza. And then he spoke about what would happen to the Gazans, saying he would, quote, “allow them to leave.” Take a listen.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BENJAMIN NETANYAHU, ISRAELI PRIME MINISTER (through translator): Most of Gaza remained a closed space. In all the other war zones, in the Civil War
in Syria, millions of people left. In Ukraine, millions left. In Afghanistan, millions left. And suddenly, they determined that in Gaza, the
civilians must be trapped. Give them the opportunity to leave. The most natural thing for all those saying that they care about the Palestinians
and want to help the Palestinians would be for them to open their doors. Why are you coming and preaching to us? Open your doors. We’ll let these
people out and we’ll let them leave just like it’s done in any other war zone.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Your reaction to that, Prince Turki?
AL-FAISAL: Well, that would be rewarding the terrorism of Netanyahu. That is the irony in all of this. Netanyahu, the perpetrator of genocide, wants
to justify it by driving out the people of Palestine, not only genocidal actions, but also ethnic cleansing. Is this acceptable? The fact that it
happened in Syria and Ukraine and in others doesn’t mean that it is right for it to happen in Palestine.
So, he’s proposing even more the hardship and difficulty on people, regardless of who they are. He is a totally, you know, a cuckoo person who
only thinks of his own position and he doesn’t want to be put on trial and go to jail, should he leave office.
AMANPOUR: But on the substance here, in terms of — you know, we know, because we’ve tried to cover it ever since Hamas took over in Gaza. There
was a de facto barricade around Gaza, certainly from the Israeli side and even for a long time from the Egyptian side, on Rafah, they couldn’t get
out. They were trapped in what many people called an open-air prison that was designed to contain Hamas. So, that’s one point.
The other point is who would take Gazans? Because, I mean, Egypt hasn’t want to open its doors. I don’t think any of the neighboring countries want
to, and I wonder would Saudi Arabia, for instance? And now, apparently, we are hearing reports that Israelis are talking to South Sudan, a country
anyway, embroiled in a civil war and famine and stuff to take them.
AL-FAISAL: You know, the Netanyahu government wants to wash its hands of its murderous activity in Palestine. So, it wants to lay on others. Why
don’t you ask the Palestinians themselves, ask the people in Gaza? Let Mr. Netanyahu allow you to survey the people in Gaza and send people in to ask
Gazans what they want to do, and then follow what they want to do. It is not up to Saudi Arabia or Egypt or Israel or the U.K. or America. It’s the
Gazan people who should be asked.
So, if Mr. Netanyahu is serious about that, he should stop the fighting, allow humanitarian to go back in and see if the Gazans want to leave.
That’s the logical step for anybody who wants to pursue logical courses. But he just simply wants to throw his mistakes and his, you know, criminal
activity and its consequences on the others.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you a question? Because I’ve interviewed many — you many times and I’ve never heard you be so unplugged. It — that’s a — you
know, pop version in your accusations against Israeli government and the Israeli prime minister. You are a long-term diplomat. Why have you taken
this step tonight to use all these words?
AL-FAISAL: Well, it’s not just tonight. And if you had been listening to one of my statements and if you have read my articles, you would’ve seen me
saying similar things in the past. But you know, I’m up to here with what I hear from not just Netanyahu, but those who support Netanyahu.
When he’s lauded as a hero back in the United States, and you know, described as a savior of Israel and so on, it just boils my blood that
somebody would think of a genocidal psychopath in those terms. And it is totally unacceptable to me. I can’t do anything about that. I’m just a
citizen who is retired for many years. I’m in my 80th year now. Not much time left to live. But you know, I wish there would be an end to what is
happening.
AMANPOUR: One of the prizes that Israel is aiming for is normalization with Saudi Arabia. How likely do you — I see you shaking your head.
AMANPOUR: Well, Ms. Amanpour, really, how can anybody expect Saudi Arabia to normalize with such a criminal or a genocidal maniac? He — there is no
way that Saudi Arabia will normalize with Israel in the present state. Have peace. The Kingdom was the one who presented the Arab Peace Initiative. It
is there on the table. Just recently, as I mentioned before, the Kingdom and France and other countries have put on the table a plan to end the
fighting in Gaza and to go forward to an end to the hostilities between Israel and its neighbors. There is a whole history and backlog of Saudi
action for peace.
Normalization is not going to come before any of that. You know, the Arab Peace Initiative is based on U.N. Security Council Resolutions.
International law should hold on these issues, not on simply abandoned and offering a prize here for a murderous psychopath like Mr. Netanyahu.
AMANPOUR: Prime Minister Netanyahu has also talked about, I think for one of the rare times, a kind of future governance for Gaza. And he’s talked
about taking control and then handing it over to an Arab entity of some kind. I think that he is — obviously, everybody dismisses the notion and
so did you of any Hamas involvement in the future, but I think he’s also dismissed the notion of the P.A., even a reformed P.A. Palestinian
Authority, doing that.
What kind of an entity do you think — I mean, how do you think the day after should look once the things that you’ve said, like the end of the
war, et cetera?
AL-FAISAL: Just look at the proposal put forward by France and Saudi Arabia. There is a specific program to establish a governing authority in
Gaza that will have the P.A. operating to provide all of the services of a government and a return to civil life and reconstruction and giving people
hope for the future. It is all there in the Saudi-French plan.
We don’t need to reinvent the wheel as it were. The wheel has been invented for reaching peace in Palestine, with the Arab Peace Initiative and now
with the ending of the Gaza conflict through the French-Saudi plan. So, I don’t see any problem in implementing those ideas. I don’t have any ideas
because I’m not in government and I’m not privy to what is and what can and cannot be done. But I read what I see in the press and I hear the
statements of leaders like Monsieur Macron and King Salman and Crown Prince Mohammed bin Salman, and see that they are serious about having a concrete
day after, as it were.
So, put it in practice. And instead of going for — look, Mr. Netanyahu now is talking about some kind of biblical image of Israel and he is not hiding
it and he’s even showing it on maps, that would be from the river to the river, from the Nile to the Euphrates. So, which is he? Is he going to
pursue, this one that you propose, or is he going to go for occupying Saudi and Syrian and Lebanese and Iraqi territory along with Palestine and Egypt?
So, he’s that kind of person.
AMANPOUR: But you know, you’ve talked about public opinion in Israel, which is very sort of — you know, it’s very on the knife’s edge, but
certainly in the United States, you’re correct, and it’s a source of great distress for American Jews and allies of Israel, that certainly within the
Democratic party, within young people all across the United States support is plummeting.
But also, there are many who look at what Netanyahu and his government has done over the last, let’s just say, this past summer with the degradation
of Hamas, with the degradation of Hezbollah, with the degradation of Iran and its capability with the, you know, departure in December of Syria,
Bashar Assad, that it looks like it’s all going well from his perspective.
AL-FAISAL: Well, I don’t know if killing a lot of people is going well for his perspective. If he — if that is the criteria for achieving success, I
don’t know what the criteria for failure is. He is — his policy is what has put us in this position now.
Look at it now. The — really more than a hundred thousand Palestinians since the war started in October have been either killed or maimed or
injured. Millions have been driven out of their homes. Everything has been destroyed. Is that a success story? On the contrary, I think it’s a
terrible consequence of this maniacal individual who simply cares about his position and not being put in jail.
AMANPOUR: Prince Turki Al-Faisal, thank you very much indeed for joining us. And obviously, that is Prince Turki’s perspective. We seek to get a
response from the Israeli government.
AL-FAISAL: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: Always. So, far we haven’t been lucky and we hope to continue those requests.
Now, before heading to Alaska, President Trump joined a meeting with European leaders and Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelenskyy to prep
for his Putin summit. German Chancellor Friedrich Merz reiterated his position that a ceasefire must come first in any deal. Zelenskyy again
emphasized that while he won’t be there for this round, Ukraine must be at the table for ceasefire talks. Here’s what he said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT (through translator): Everything about Ukraine will be discussed with Ukraine. We have to get prepared a
three-side format of the conversation that should be of ceasefire first, then the security guarantees, real security guarantees. And by the way,
President Trump expressed his supports for that.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: But as Donald Trump talks about Ukraine swapping land with Russia, and as Russia makes military advances in the east, tension in Kyiv
is high. In a column in Foreign Affairs called “The Limits of Putin’s Balancing Act,” our next guest says, Vladimir Putin’s overreach in Ukraine
could create new challenges for him at home.
Michael Kimmage teaches history at Catholic University of America. He’s an acknowledged expert on this issue and he is joining me now from Vilnius in
Lithuania. Welcome to the program.
MICHAEL KIMMAGE, PROFESSOR OF HISTORY, CATHOLIC UNIVERSITY OF AMERICA, AUTHOR, “COLLISIONS” AND DIRECTOR, KENNAN INSTITUTE, WILSON CENTER: Great
to be with you.
AMANPOUR: Can we just start with where we are right now. What is the best that President Trump can hope for in an Alaska summit? What should we all
be looking for to come out of that? Because presumably it’s not a full- blown peace conference.
KIMMAGE: No, not at all. I mean, there seems to be very little preparation for this. It’s a hastily arranged meeting. It’s very hard to understand
what the White House’s agenda is. I think what one can hope for is that it would be the beginning of a credible process where Russia would begin to
acknowledge a series of things, beginning with Ukraine sovereignty and territorial integrity. And one could consider a winding down of the war.
But we’re so far from that moment that it’s very hard to believe that that’s the result that we’ll get from this meeting.
AMANPOUR: Do you think that it’s possible at all to get a ceasefire because just freeze it along the current line of conflict and then talk, or
do you think that’s not even? Because obviously President Zelenskyy has said over and over since — even since Trump 2.0, that he’s willing to do
that immediately and unconditionally as long as the other side does as well?
KIMMAGE: No, that’s correct. And one has to remember that the White House has announced a series of ceasefires over the course of the spring and
summer, and Russia has blown past all of them and has actually waged an incredibly bloody war against Ukrainian civilians over the course of the
summer. So, that’s the backdrop to the to the summit meeting.
Now, it is possible that Putin could promise a kind of ceasefire, but there would have to be so many verification mechanisms, and it’s an enormous and
very chaotic line of contact between Russia and Ukraine. So, even if Zelenskyy and Putin would announce that it might take time to enact and
then trusting Putin on this would be exceptionally difficult.
AMANPOUR: What leverage — I mean, it’s a kind of a silly question because the U.S. has all the leverage in the world, but does it actually now in
terms of facing off with Putin on trying to get a diplomatic end to this?
KIMMAGE: I think it’s limited. Curiously, the vice president on Sunday of this past week has said that the U.S. will cease any financial commitment
to the Ukrainian war efforts. So, there’s a form of leverage that was taken off the table before this meeting. And in a different sense, although this
was gestured toward today with the discussion between President Trump and Chancellor Merz, in a sense, the greatest leverage that the U.S. has is
partnership with Ukraine, partnership with European allies. But that’s not in the best of shape at the moment.
And you know, if you take the escalatory options off the table, or if you take even the commitment to Ukraine off the table, militarily, and if the
transatlantic partnership is in question, I don’t think that Trump is coming into this meeting with a very strong hand.
AMANPOUR: And I think you also mentioned that the idea of reducing U.S. troops in Europe also gives Putin, you know, much more to count on for his
own self.
KIMMAGE: Yes, it certainly looks good to Putin if that would be the case and it puts the Europeans in a difficult spot. It’s hard to see how the
U.S. can dramatically succeed with these negotiations if it’s really trying to wind down its military presence in Europe, and that’s just one of the
core contradictions of the U.S. position at the moment.
AMANPOUR: Michael Kimmage, President Trump himself seems to be pretty lucid about Putin. He’s had his five phone calls with him. I think he’s
shown frustration that what he thought would be an immediate rapport by phone hasn’t actually worked in the direction that he hoped it would. But
more than that, he briefed the E.U. and NATO allies after the last conversation, a couple — I guess a month or so ago, maybe two, that Putin
made it clear that he didn’t want to ceasefire because he thought he was winning in Ukraine. Do you think that that is correct? Is Putin winning?
KIMMAGE: No, I think quite the contrary. I think it’s a miserable phase for the war effort on the Russian side, despite certain incremental
territorial gains that Russia is making. Roughly 80 percent of Ukraine is in Ukrainian hands. Ukraine has enacted a lot of technological innovations
in the last year, and Germany and other countries are really stepping up to support Ukraine.
So, the long-term picture for Russia really doesn’t look good. That actually bodes well over time for negotiations. But the core question, as
your question indicates, is whether Putin is ready? And I think Trump may be lucid about that. You can certainly find statements to that effect. The
question is whether President Trump is lucid about President Trump, whether he is overestimating his own deal making and negotiating abilities, and
there do seem to be signs of that.
AMANPOUR: Let me put this, he talked about land swaps. I’m just going to play this little bit of sound from President Trump.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
DONALD TRUMP, U.S. PRESIDENT: Russia has occupied a big portion of Ukraine. They’ve occupied some very prime territory. We’re going to try and
get some of that territory back for Ukraine.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: And then he said they’d have to be swaps the other way round as well, or at least that’s how it was described. How do you see that working?
Is there anything that — you know, obviously they want to get territory back from Russia, but is there anything to get from Ukraine?
KIMMAGE: Well, I mean, a year ago we could have spoken about swaps of territory that Ukraine held in Russia that it would swap for territory that
Russia holds in Ukraine. That makes a lot of sense, and I think that that’s what Ukraine was driving for. Ukraine no longer holds territory in Russia.
It’s very hard to understand what President Trump means about this, swapping what for what? Ukraine giving its own territory now to Russia for
the sake of getting its own territory back from Russia?
Zelenskyy has been crystal clear about not conceding to that, and the Europeans are desperate for that not to happen. So, it’s not as if
President Trump in Washington can wave a magic wand and get Ukraine to concede territory. And it’s just not at all something that Zelenskyy can do
militarily or politically. So, it’s baffling, and it’s just one of the ways in which this feels like a very hastily arranged summit without consensus
behind it and without adequate structure.
AMANPOUR: Well, you know, interestingly, the White House has been most definitely lowering expectations, right down to reducing it to,
quote/unquote, “a listening exercise” to try to get face to face to understand what Putin wants. This what Zelenskyy said today after the E.U.
meeting and also talking in a group with President Trump, virtually, this what he said Putin wants.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
ZELENSKYY (through translator): Putin is bluffing. He’s trying to push before the Alaska meeting on all directions of frontline. Russia wants to
occupy the whole Ukraine. This his wish. And Putin is bluffing that sanctions is nothing and they don’t work. In fact, sanctions are hitting
Russian economy.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: So, reaction to both, Putin bluffing, he wants to occupy the whole place and that the sanctions, he says, Zelenskyy, are working. Do you
think that’s the case?
KIMMAGE: I think that Zelenskyy is overstating. I think Russia has probably scaled back some of its territorial ambitions. And it may be that
for Russia territory in inches and miles is not the key thing. What Russia wants — and here Zelenskyy is getting the story basically right, is some
political control over Ukraine. So, that’s very important for President Trump to bear in mind going into this meeting.
Now, whether it’s sanctions or whether it’s internal factors, the Russian economy is really beginning to deteriorate. You have higher inflation, you
have an economy that’s overheating, but I would be cautious on that point as well. I don’t think that Putin is being pressured into negotiating
because of the economy.
It is notable that Trump has threatened and has enacted tariffs on India for purchasing Russian oil and is using that as leverage, potential
leverage against Russia if these negotiations don’t go well. And that’s a powerful form of U.S. leverage. But Putin is not on the ropes economically.
He may get there, but he is not there yet.
AMANPOUR: Right. And then, of course, for Europe, because they’re also excluded from the actual meeting, but again, they did have this virtual
meeting today in the lead up to the Alaska summit. This what Chancellor Merz said.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FRIEDRICH MERZ, GERMAN CHANCELLOR (through translator): We Europeans are therefore doing everything we can in order to lay the groundwork to make
sure that this meeting goes the right way. We want President Trump to have success on Friday in Anchorage.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
AMANPOUR: Also, President Macron says the Americans do want to obtain a ceasefire, and Trump apparently expressed support for real security
guarantees for Ukraine. What would that look like? And of course, I mean, you’re in Vilnius, you know what it’s like, you know, for the Baltic states
anyway, the frontline states, to really worry about security guarantees and what might come next.
KIMMAGE: Well, these conversations have been going in circles for the last couple of months because Europe is willing to do quite a bit and willing to
provide some form of security guarantee to Ukraine. But Europe really wants an American backstop, and Europe wants there to be a strong transatlantic
underpinning for this, and that’s just something that President Trump refuses to provide.
So, I don’t know what Europeans can take home from that comment of President Trump that he’s willing to consider a security guarantee for
Ukraine. I mean, if that’s the case, it could have been announced three months ago and it could be worked through with the Europeans, but it’s —
it could well be empty words.
And again, this backdrop of the U.S. speculating about a basic withdrawal from Europe or a minimizing of the military presence in Europe I think
makes Europeans worry about the U.S. security commitment to NATO itself, not to mention to Ukraine.
So, there, I think Trump has a huge credibility gap. And one wonders how the meeting’s going to go if it widens that credibility gap or if it makes
it smaller, I suspect it will widen it.
AMANPOUR: A kind of a two-prong question, because I don’t have much more time, but I guess a lot of people have said, oh, my gosh, I hope it doesn’t
go like the Helsinki Press — you know, The Helsinki Summit, and I think it was 2018, we were all there and we saw President Trump famously turn to
Putin and say, I believe him, essentially, against his own Intelligence Community.
But you’ve also written about Putin’s overreach and the balancing act. Just quickly, what do you mean about that and react to the first one as well?
KIMMAGE: Well, the first one is a huge concern, and 2018 and Helsinki is a terrible precedent for this upcoming meeting if it’s relevant, because
Trump sort of wanders over to the Russian narrative of things. And if that happens on Friday, then Trump will end up legitimizing the Russian war
effort, which would be bad all around.
But as for the second point, Putin has certainly overreached in Ukraine. He’s burnt up enormous amounts of material. We’re going to have roughly a
million Russian deaths and casualties by the end of this year. And for the sake of territory that’s basically been turned into a wasteland. So, Russia
is impossibly far from victory. And as we parse through the details of this summit and whether it goes well or badly, we can’t forget that
circumstance. This very much a war that Russia is not winning.
AMANPOUR: OK. And one last question then, because now I’m having memories of President Reagan going to Reykjavik to talk about nuclear weapons with
Gorbachev. And everybody said that was a disaster. But in the end, it turned out pretty well. Reaction?
KIMMAGE: That is true. You know, that’s true. I mean, there’s a spontaneous energy among leaders that, you know, sometimes, you know, can
yield very unexpected results. But there was a whole architecture of diplomatic initiative back in the late 1980s that was there in place that I
don’t see in place now. So, even if the chemistry is decent between Putin and Trump, whether they can really translate that into peace for Ukraine or
a better security arrangement for Europe, I’m tremendously skeptical.
AMANPOUR: Interesting. Michael Kimmage. And of course, the FT reports that along with cuts and all sorts of things to the State Department there’ll be
very few, if any, experts in the room during this conversation between the two heads of states. Thank you very much for being with us.
AMANPOUR: Now, to the streets of Washington, D.C. where National Guard troops have been deployed. President Trump vows to, quote, “take our
capital back.” It’s unclear who or what from though. A statistic show, crime numbers falling, not spiking. While some support the move, others
question its legality.
D.C. Councilmember Brooke Pinto was elected in 2020 as the youngest councilmember in the district’s history, and she’s joining Michel Martin to
break down the administration’s claims.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Councilmember Brooke Pinto, thank you so much for speaking with us.
BROOKE PINTO, D.C. COUNCILMEMBER: Thanks for having me today.
MARTIN: So, Councilmember, a lot of people watching this program won’t understand how it’s even possible for the president to take over a local
police force, even for 30 days. So, as briefly as you can you explain how it is that that is possible?
PINTO: Yes. But let me first be very clear, the President has not taken over our police force. Our local police force is still run by Chief Smith,
who is the chief of Metropolitan Police Department in D.C. and they report to Mayor Bowser. And we at the council have oversight over that. That has
not changed.
MARTIN: So, with that clarification, how is it even possible to do whatever it is he says he’s doing?
PINTO: Yes.
MARTIN: To federalize the police even for 30 days, which is what the law currently permits?
PINTO: Right. So, D.C. is a very unique jurisdiction in the United States of America. We are not a state. We are a federal district and we function
city, county, and state functions kind of all in one. And in 1973, Congress passed the Home Rule Act that essentially authorized the district to have
our own local government to manage the city, to manage what has now become a $22 billion budget, to manage our own police, our schools, our streets,
and to provide for the wellbeing of the over 700,000 district residents who call D.C. home.
Now, there is a provision of the home rule charter that allows the president in a period of an emergency, which is broadly defined, that he
can or she can call on services from the Metropolitan Police Department for a period of 30 days. So, he, in his executive order, that’s what the
language says, it mirrors what we have in the Home Rule Act that says, we are establishing that there’s an emergency in Washington, D.C. that allows
the federal government to call on services from MPD. But the Metropolitan Police Department is still run by our local government.
MARTIN: Can we just sort of take this sort of piece by piece? First of all, do you agree that there is an emergency?
PINTO: Every person should be safe in Washington, D.C., whether you live here, whether you are working here, whether you’re a tourist or anywhere in
the world. And we have made a lot of progress when it comes to public safety, especially in the last couple of years. I chair the council’s
committee on judiciary and public safety and I put together last year the single largest piece of public safety legislation in our city’s history
that had over 100 different interventions to prevent crime, to hold perpetrators of crime accountable, to improve government coordination.
And since we’ve passed that law, we have seen our violent crime go down by nearly 50 percent and we have the lowest violent crime numbers we’ve had in
30 years. Now, I do believe there is more work to do to ensure that no matter what neighborhood you live in in Washington, D.C. you are safe. And
I am laser focused on continuing that work on behalf of our local government to ensure that’s a reality.
But to declare that there is an emergency is not the appropriate response from the federal government who we need to be our partners in other ways,
not in this way.
MARTIN: What went through your mind when you saw and presumably watched the president’s press conference?
PINTO: Well, first he seemed to be talking about a city that is not my own. He was talking about a city where nobody is safe, where nobody can
walk down the streets. That’s not the experience of the vast majority of district residents who are wonderful, contributing members of society, who
are part of our thriving and beautiful city. And it also seemed to be something that sounded good to him, that sounds like a quick fix, but crime
is complicated. And it needs serious solutions to address a serious problem.
For instance, he talked about that our police department has enough officers. Well, I fundamentally disagree with him there. I think we need
hundreds of more officers, but that are through our Metropolitan Police Department, meaning they get trained through our police academy, the best
in the country. Meaning they know our local D.C. laws and the unique interplay with the federal government. Meaning they wear body-worn cameras
and are accountable to the people of D.C. if there’s an issue.
And so, just to say we’re going to have hundreds of National Guardsmen going through the streets who are not trained for this and is not a good
use of taxpayer dollars, to me sounds like an easy fix that’s not actually going to solve the serious problems that we have.
MARTIN: As press conference, the president said the city was overrun by blood thirsty criminals, roving mobs of wild youth, drugged out maniacs,
and homeless people. What do you say to that?
PINTO: I mean, not only is that language so offensive for so many reasons, but it’s not the serious work of government. The government is here to
solve problems and we know that very well in local government. We see problems and we solve them. That’s what we’re in the business of doing.
So, when it comes to homelessness, for instance. We did have a major spike in people living outside following the pandemic. That was a result of a
number of things, including the CDC saying it wasn’t safe to live in congregate settings. And so, hundreds of people moved outside and were
living in encampments.
Now, I visited those encampments and I put together a plan with my colleagues, with the mayor, with homeless services providers, and we
started what we called the care pilot, where we went to the largest encampment sites. And we said, for a period of 30 days we’re going to
provide you with the services you need. We’re going to connect you to housing, we’re going to connect you to mental health supports if you need
it, physical supports. But then at the end of the 30 days, we’re closing down the park to camping. When we did that, we saw 84 percent of those
people move indoors to permanent housing.
I started another new model in Ward 2, where I represent just last year for transitional bridge housing to say, OK, if you’re living outside, as you’re
waiting for a permanent apartment or voucher to become available, you can come inside and get full-time case management and support and meals. It’s
called Transitional Bridge Housing that we now have and we’re seeing major success.
So, we have to do more as the nation’s capital to ensure that every person can live indoors and with dignity. I do not think it’s appropriate or safe
for anyone to be living outside in Washington, D.C. But there’s a process to do so with compassion and with dignity and with an eye towards
sustainability to set someone up for success.
MARTIN: Jeanine Pirro, who is the former Fox News personality, who has recently been confirmed as U.S. attorney for the District of Columbia, she
said at the same press conference where the president announced this initiative, that nobody has — she sees a problem with young people, right,
specifically. She says, no one has been arresting them because the superior courts and my office has no jurisdiction over them because the D.C. council
has literally prevented my office from prosecuting anyone who’s 14, 15, 16, 17 years old, even if they shoot you with a gun. And she says, I have no
authority to arrest them. Can you speak to that, the truth or falsity of that claim?
PINTO: Sure. First, let me say I work with U.S. Attorney Pirro, just as I have worked with every U.S. attorney, because we have this unique
relationship with the federal government that they handle in the federally appointed U.S. attorney’s office adult prosecutions. Our locally elected
attorney general, as you mentioned, handles juvenile prosecutions. That’s not because of some law the D.C. Council passed, that’s the way that our
structure has been for quite some time.
It is absolutely inaccurate to say that a young person cannot be arrested. MPD makes arrests every day for people, whether you’re a juvenile
committing an offense or an adult committing an offense. And if you’re a juvenile, it will go through the attorney general’s office, and if you’re
an adult, it goes through the U.S. attorney’s office. So, that’s inaccuracy number one.
Second, the U.S. attorney often brings cases against juveniles in federal court, which allows them to take over jurisdiction of certain cases,
especially cases that were committed with a weapon or had a lot of victims. And so, that is already practice that happens with previous U.S. attorney
and the current U.S. attorney.
I also have to say the vast majority of young people in our city are doing amazing things and are not involved in any sort of crime at all. Are
learning, are playing with one another, and are being kids. And so, I want your viewers to understand that Washington, D.C. has over 700,000
residents, including kids who are wonderful people and members of our community. The majority of violent crimes are still being committed by men
between the ages of 18 and 35. So, this idea that it’s all juveniles is also false.
MARTIN: So, is your basic take on this, on the Trump administration’s initiative here that it’s unnecessary or that it is deleterious in its own
way, or is it just the idea is offensive to people who are actually in leadership in local government?
PINTO: Sending in National Guards to our city who are untrained in our local laws, don’t understand our neighborhoods and our challenges is
undermining to public safety, to our police department that has worked tirelessly to build up trust and collaboration with communities across D.C.
to drive down violent crime.
If there is somebody coming through your neighborhood who you have never seen before is rolling through in military material and uniform with a
tank, that is not necessarily going to be someone that you are trusting to communicate information to about a crime that you saw on your block.
They’re also not trained in our local laws the way that our Metropolitan Police Department are.
And so, while I’m a big believer that we need to bolster the size of our force, just having National Guard support, come in without clear direction
of what they’re doing is not useful and can be harmful.
MARTIN: Are you worried at all that there’s a mixed message here? There’s also the case that the president pardoned all of the people who were
involved in the January 6th attack on the capitol, which injured 140 law enforcement officers, including 60 officers at the Metropolitan Police
Department, right, some of whom were so severely injured that they could not return to their duties. OK. So, you worry that there’s a mixed message
here?
PINTO: Oh, absolutely. The entire thing is so inconsistent. It’s also used to be the Republican Party that supported decisions being made by the local
government. And debloating the federal government, and that’s gone out the window with this administration as well. It is not responsible and it is
not serious business.
I’m always concerned about a mixed message like that, but what my responsibility is, is to the residents of Washington, D.C. with the added
responsibility that we are the nation’s capital and we should be safe to every person who comes here and who lives here. And I am always going to be
focused on continuing the progress we’ve made to ensure that safety is a reality for everyone. And we’re going to do so with the tools and resources
that we have in our unique situation as a non-state in Washington, D.C.
MARTIN: Somebody listening to this conversation might wonder, why should I care about this? If I don’t live in the District of Columbia, don’t plan to
visit anytime soon, why do I care?
PINTO: Because government at its core should be here to solve problems and help people. And making our local city or any jurisdiction across the
United States of America essentially a military zone so you can sound like you’re doing something on public safety is extremely frightening and
disconcerting and is not the America that I am proud of and not the America that I know residents across this country want to live in.
Every person deserves to be safe. Every person deserves to have opportunity, and every person deserves to have a government, whether that’s
your local government, your state government, your federal government who is working on your behalf, on serious solutions to solve the problems of
your everyday life. And this not a serious solution. And it’s what’s so troublesome to me.
And so, today, it’s happening in Washington, D.C. We all need to have each other’s backs in this country and get to a place where we can come back
together. This shouldn’t be so either or. I don’t want Democrats to be put in this position following this action of saying, there’s no crime at all
and there’s no challenges with public safety. That’s not accurate either. And that’s why I’m being very clear that we do have challenges when it
comes to public safety.
We’re not in a crime emergency, we’re not having a crime spike. We’re having the lowest violent crime in 30 years. But there is more work to do,
and that’s the serious work of government, and that’s the work that I’m interested in doing every day alongside all my council colleagues, our
mayor, and our attorney general.
MARTIN: That is D.C. councilmember Brooke Pinto. Councilmember, thank you so much for speaking with us.
PINTO: Thanks for having me.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
AMANPOUR: And wherever you are, government is serious work. And finally, tonight, as Europe faces yet another scorching heat wave, people in Bosnia
are trekking to cool down on higher ground. With temperatures reaching 43 degrees Celsius, locals and tourists are hiking to the mountains near
Sarajevo, some even taking the famous cable car for fresh air.
Nearby, at the same time, a stunning nighttime spectacle has lit up the sky, the annual meteor shower or show thrilled lucky viewers around the
world last night. A few spotted shooting stars at a monument commemorating the Bosnian War. I wonder if they made a wish, perhaps for peace in our
world.
That’s it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you can always
catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media.
Thank you for watching, and goodbye from London.