December 8, 2025

>>> HELLO, EVERYONE, WELCOME TO AMANPOUR & CO.

HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.

>> SYRIA WILL BE A COUNTRY OF STABILITY AND WE ARE NOT CONCERNED OF BEING A COUNTRY THAT EXPORTS CONFLICT INCLUDING TO ISRAEL.

>> ONE YEAR SINCE THE FALL OF ASSAD, BUT CAN THE COUNTRY ESCAPE HIS BRUTAL LEGACY?

CHRISTIANE SITS DOWN WITH SYRIA'S INTERIM PRESIDENT AHMED AL SHARAA WHO SEIZED DAMASCUS LAST DECEMBER.

>>> I HAVE TO SAY I'M A LITTLE BIT DISAPPOINTED THAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HASN'T READ THE PROPOSAL.

>> ZELENSKYY MEETS EUROPEAN LEADERS IN LONDON, BUT STILL NO PROGRESS FOR PEACE DETAILS IN UKRAINE.

WE HAVE THE DETAILS.

>>> ALSO AHEAD.

>> THIS ADMINISTRATION WILL PASS AND A NEW ADMINISTRATION WILL COME, BUT THE IMPACTS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY ARE GOING TO BE FELT FOR DECADES.

>> MISSING WORLD AIDS DAY PULLING FUNDING FOR PREVENTION VACCINES.

DEMETRE DASKALAKIS SPEAKS TO HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT RECENT SHAKE-UPS IN AMERICAN HEALTHCARE.

>> AMANPOUR & COMPANY IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT, JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS, CANDACE KING WEIR, THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM, THE FAMILY FOUNDATION OF LEILA AND MICKEY STRAUS, THE FILOMEN M. D'AGOSTINO FOUNDATION, THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND, CHARLES ROSENBLUM, MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW, KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES, BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG, AND BY STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.

THANK YOU!

>>> WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, EVERYONE.

I'M BIANNA GOLODRYGA SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.

>>> ONE YEAR AGO SYRIA'S PRESIDENT BASHAR AL ASSAD FLED THE COUNTRY AND TODAY SYRIANS ARE CELEBRATING THE ANNIVERSARY MARKING THE END OF 13 YEARS OF CIVIL WAR AND A DECADE OF DICTATORSHIP UNDER ASSAD AND HIS FAMILY.

THE OPPOSITION LEADER, AHMED AL SHARAA WAS A SUNNI ISLAMIST MILITANT THEN KNOWN TO THE WORLD AS ABU MOHAMMED AL JOLANI.

HE IS NOW SYRIA'S INTERIM PRESIDENT.

SO HOW IS SYRIA DOING ONE YEAR AFTER LIBERATION?

AL SHARAA IS AN INTERNATIONAL DARLING.

HE HAS THE APPROVAL OF 81% OF THE SYRIAN PEOPLE, BUT THESE AMONG THEM MINORITIES, INCLUDING ALAWITES AND DRUZE, SUPPORT FALLING WELL BELOW 50%, AND THE UNITED NATIONS COMMISSION WARNING THAT SYRIA'S TRANSITION REMAINS FRAGILE AMID CONTINUING INSECURITY AND SPORADIC VIOLATION.

SO AL SHARAA'S PARTICIPATION AT THIS WEEKEND'S FORUM WAS HIGHLY ANTICIPATED.

CHRISTIANE SPOKE TO HIM VIA MULTIPLE TRANSLATORS AT THE FORUM AND PUT THE CRUCIAL QUESTIONS TO HIM THERE.

>> MR.

PRESIDENT, WELCOME.

EVERYBODY'S LOOKING FORWARD TO HEARING FROM YOU.

IT'S ALMOST EXACTLY A YEAR AGO THAT WE WERE ALL GATHERED HERE AND WE HEARD THE NEWS THAT YOUR FORCES WERE STORMING TOWARDS DAMASCUS AND THAT PRESIDENT ASSAD AT THE TIME FLED.

SO IT CAUSED A BIT OF AN EARTHQUAKE IN THIS ROOM AND IN INTERNATIONAL COMMUNICATIONS AND POLICY.

SO HERE WE ARE ONE YEAR LATER.

YOU, MR.

PRESIDENT, HAVE BROUGHT SYRIA OUT OF ITS INTERNATIONAL ISOLATION.

YOU'VE BEEN THERE.

YOU'VE BEEN IN THE WHITE HOUSE.

YOU'VE BEEN IN THE U.N.

YOU HAVE BEEN ALL OVER THE PLACE.

LET'S START BY ASKING YOU WHETHER YOU BELIEVE THAT SYRIA IS FULLY INTO AN INTEGRATED INTO THE INTERNATIONAL COMMUNITY AND WHETHER YOU HAVE HOPE THAT YOUR ECONOMY IS ON THE WAY TO BEING FIXED.

>> IN THE NAME OF GOD, THE MOST COMPASSIONATE, THE MOST MERCIFUL, THANK YOU FOR HAVING ME.

SYRIA HAS BEEN THROUGH A NUMBER OF SERIOUS PHASES OVER THE PAST 100 YEARS, PARTICULARLY OVER THE PAST 60 YEARS.

SYRIA WAS LIVING IN A STRONG AND EXTREME ISOLATION AND IT WAS LIVING THROUGH A STIFLING ECONOMIC EMBARGO THE POLICIES OF THE FORMER REGIME ACTUALLY PROMPTING THE MAJORITY OF REGIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS TO SHY AWAY FROM SYRIA.

THIS TIME LAST YEAR, YES, YOU WERE AT THE DOHA FORUM AND WE DAMASCUS AND WE PROBABLY CHANGED THE PLANS FOR THE DOHA FORUM BACK THEN AS WE WERE ADVANCING MILITARILY ON DAMASCUS.

OVER THE PAST YEAR, SYRIA MANAGED TO REGAIN A LARGE NUMBER OF ITS REGIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL RELATIONS AND TIES AND I THINK WE HAVE GONE BEYOND THE PHASE AND EVERYTHING WE PROMISED, I BELIEVE THAT WE'VE KEPT SINCE WE ENTERED DAMASCUS AND THIS HAS MANAGED TO BUILD TRUST BETWEEN US AND A LARGE NUMBER OF REGIONAL INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS.

I BELIEVE WE ARE DEFINITELY ON THE RIGHT PATH.

EVERY SINGLE STEP WE HAVE TAKEN HAS HELPED THE NATIONAL INTEREST OF SYRIA AND WE HAVE REGAINED OUR REGIONAL AND INTERNATIONAL STATUS WHICH IS QUITE SIGNIFICANT AND WE WENT FROM BEING A COUNTRY THAT EXPORTED CRISES TO A COUNTRY WHERE WE HAVE AN ACTUAL HOPE OF DELIVERING STABILITY AND BEING A LIVING MODEL FOR REGIONAL STABILITY IN THE REGION.

PARTICULARLY A LOOK AT THE TENSION AND I BELIEVE THE WORLD HAS QUICKLY REALIZED THIS OPPORTUNITY AND THE WORLD HAS STARTED BREAKING WITH SYRIA IMMEDIATELY IN ORDER TO BENEFIT FROM SYRIA'S STATUS WHEN IT COMES TO REGIONAL STABILITY AND SYRIA'S INFLUENCE OVER STABILITY IN THE REGION.

>> AS YOU SAID, YOU'RE SURROUNDED BY A LOT OF COUNTRIES WHICH MAY POTENTIALLY NOT HAVE ANY INTEREST IN YOUR STABILITY.

LET'S SAY ISRAEL.

I'VE TALKED TO SEVERAL OFFICIALS HERE AND BEFORE I GOT HERE.

AS WE KNOW, ISRAEL CONTINUES MILITARY OPERATIONS ON YOUR COUNTRY AND IT HAS DEMANDED I THINK --YOU CAN CORRECT ME IF I'M WRONG --A DEMILITARIZED ZONE FROM DAMASCUS TO THE BORDER.

THERE ARE THOSE WHO BELIEVE ISRAEL DOES NOT HAVE AN INTEREST IN A UNIFIED SYRIA.

WHAT DO YOU THINK ISRAEL'S OBJECTIVES ARE IN YOUR COUNTRY?

>> ISRAEL IN MANAGING ITS CRISES IN THE REGION OFTEN EXPORTS CRISES TO OTHER COUNTRIES AND TRIES TO RUN AWAY FROM THE HORRIFYING MASSACRES IT COMMITTED IN GAZA AND IT DOES SO BY ATTEMPTING TO EXPORT CRISES.

ISRAEL HAS BECOME A COUNTRY THAT IS IN A FIGHT AGAINST GHOSTS.

THEY JUSTIFY EVERYTHING USING THEIR SECURITY CONCERNS AND THEY TAKE OCTOBER 7th AND EXTRAPOLATE IT TO EVERYTHING THAT'S HAPPENING AROUND THEM.

I BELIEVE THAT SINCE WE ARRIVED IN DAMASCUS, WE SENT POSITIVE MESSAGES REGARDING REGIONAL PEACE AND STABILITY AND WE'VE SAID VERY FRANKLY THAT SYRIA WILL BE A COUNTRY OF STABILITY AND WE ARE NOT CONCERNED BEING A COUNTRY THAT EXPORTS CONFLICT, INCLUDING TO ISRAEL.

HOWEVER, IN RETURN ISRAEL HAS MET US WITH EXTREME VIOLENCE AND SYRIA HAS SUFFERED MASSIVE VIOLATIONS OF OUR AIRSPACE AND WE'VE BEEN VICTIM OF OVER 1,000 AIRSTRIKES AND OVER 400 INCURSIONS, THE LAST OF WHICH WAS THE MASSACRE THAT ISRAEL COMMITTED IN BEIJING THAT LEFT OVER 25 PEOPLE DEAD.

IS CONVINCE POWERFUL REGIONAL PLAYERS AND POWERFUL INTERNATIONAL PLAYERS.

THE ENTIRE WORLD TODAY SUPPORTS SYRIA AND ITS DEMANDS WHEN WE DEMAND ISRAEL TO GO BACK TO THE PRE-DECEMBER 8th LINES.

WE HAVE BEEN VERY ADAMANT ABOUT RESPECTING THE 1974 AGREEMENT.

THIS AGREEMENT HAS HELD ON FOR OVER 50 YEARS.

SO ONE WAY OR ANOTHER WE CAN CALL IT A SUCCESSFUL AGREEMENT AND MESSING WITH THIS AGREEMENT EVEN THOUGH IT HAS RECEIVED INTERNATIONAL UNANIMITY AND SECURITY COUNCIL APPROVAL AND ATTEMPTING TO SEEK OTHER AGREEMENTS, SUCH AS A BUFFER ZONE OR SOMETHING SIMILAR, I BELIEVE, THESE ATTEMPTS WILL SEND US INTO A SERIOUS AND DANGEROUS PLACE AND WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE RESULT MAY BE.

THEY COULD BE SUCCESSFUL OR NOT.

I BELIEVE THE BEST THING TO DO WOULD BE TO COMMIT TO THE 1974 AGREEMENT THAT HAS HELD ON FOR SO LONG.

AS FAR AS A DEMILITARIZED ZONE IS CONCERNED, LET US DECONSTRUCT THAT.

HOW WILL IT BE?

WHO WILL PROTECT THAT ZONE?

ISRAEL OFTEN SAYS THAT THEY ARE AFRAID OF COMING UNDER ATTACK FROM SOUTHERN SYRIA.

SO WHO WILL BE PROTECTING THIS BUFFER ZONE OR THIS DEMILITARIZED ZONE IF THE SYRIAN ARMY OR THE SYRIAN FORCES AREN'T GOING TO BE THERE?

SO THERE ARE CURRENTLY NEGOTIATIONS AND THE UNITED STATES IS PARTICIPATING AND ENGAGED IN THOSE NEGOTIATIONS AND LIKE I SAID, ALL COUNTRIES SUPPORT AN ISRAELI PULLOUT TO THE PRE-DECEMBER 8th LINES AND EVERYBODY IS OKAY WITH ADDRESSING LOGICAL AND REASONABLE SECURITY CONCERNS AND THAT'S THE KEYWORD HERE, REASONABLE SECURITY CONCERN, IN ORDER TO MAKE SURE THAT EVERYONE IS SAFE AND SECURE AND JUST A REMINDER, IT IS SYRIA THAT IS BEING ATTACKED BY ISRAEL AND NOT THE OPPOSITE AND THEREFORE, WHO HAS MORE RIGHT TO CLAIM A BUFFER ZONE AND A PULLOUT?

>> NOW I WANT TO TALK ABOUT SOME OF THE CONCERNS FROM INSIDE YOUR COUNTRY.

LOOK, I WAS AT AN EVENT THE OTHER NIGHT FOR SYRIA IN LONDON AND ONE OF THE MAIN SPEAKERS SAID THE FALL OF ASSAD MARKS A NEW DAWN FOR SYRIA.

IT'S NOT JUST THE END OF OUR STRUGGLE.

IT IS THE BEGINNING OF A DIFFERENT CHAPTER, ONE WHERE WE ARE FINALLY ALLOWED TO HOPE, TO IMAGINE RECOVERY AND SPEAK OPENLY ABOUT THE COUNTRY WE WANT TO BUILD.

SO LET'S SPEAK OPENLY BECAUSE IT'S NOT JUST THE ISRAELI ATTACKS AND OTHER NEIGHBORS YOU HAVE ISSUES WITH, BUT YOU HAVE AN ISSUE WITH INTERNAL UNITY AND THERE SEEMS TO BE TRIBAL MINORITY FRAGMENTATION --AND THAT'S A KIND WORD --AND A LOT OF FEAR INSIDE YOUR COUNTRY.

SO AS YOU KNOW, YOU NEED THE U.S.

CONGRESS TO LIFT THE SEIZE ACT, THE LAST OF THE VERY, VERY IMPORTANT SANCTIONS, AND AFTER THAT HAPPENED TO THE ALAWITES, ET CETERA, THERE WAS A PULLBACK AND I WANT TO KNOW WHETHER THIS IS REALLY IMPORTANT ENOUGH FOR YOU TO FIX AND TO TRY TO REALLY DO WHAT YOU SAID YOU WANTED TO DO, WHICH WAS UNIFY YOUR COUNTRY, AND HOW YOU THINK YOU'RE GOING TO DO THAT.

>> FIRST OFF, I DISAGREE WITH THE USE OF THE TERM FEAR BECAUSE THERE ARE MILLIONS OF PEOPLE WHO ARE TAKING TO THE STREETS SPONTANEOUSLY.

THEY HAVE BEEN DOING THAT OVER THE PAST TWO WEEKS AND CELEBRATING THE FALL OF THE REGIME.

ARE THOSE PEOPLE AFRAID?

ON THE CONTRARY, I BELIEVE SYRIA IS LIVING THROUGH ITS BEST DAYS.

WE ARE TALKING ABOUT A COUNTRY THAT'S AWARE, THAT'S CONSCIOUS, AND THERE'S NOT A SINGLE COUNTRY IN THE WORLD WITHOUT DOMESTIC ISSUES AND THERE'S NOT AN AUTHORITY IN THE WORLD THAT RECEIVES UNANIMOUS APPROVAL FROM ITS PEOPLE.

AS YOU'RE VERY WELL AWARE, WE'RE ROUGHLY --100 YEARS AGO MODERN SYRIA WAS ESTABLISHED AND WE WENT THROUGH A NUMBER OF INDEPENDENCE FACE AND A NUMBER OF REGIMES THAT RULED SYRIA.

OVER THE PAST COUPLE OF YEARS THE SYRIAN PEOPLE DID NOT KNOW EACH OTHER WELL.

DURING THE REVOLUTION THERE WAS A LOT OF MIXING AND MINGLING AMONGST THE VARIOUS FACTIONS AND COMMUNITIES IN SYRIA AND WE ACTUALLY INHERITED A LOT OF CONFLICTS AND A LOT OF DIFFERENCES FROM THE OLD REGIME BECAUSE THEY USED TO USE CONFESSIONS AGAINST EACH OTHER.

HOWEVER, EVER SINCE WE TOOK OVER WE ACTUALLY RESORTED TO PARDONING A LARGE NUMBER OF PEOPLE AND A LARGE NUMBER OF FACTIONS SO THAT WE CAN BUILD A SUSTAINABLE, SAFE, AND SECURE FUTURE FOR THE SYRIAN PEOPLE AND SO THAT WE CAN SECURE ANOTHER OPPORTUNITY FOR THE SYRIAN FEEL TO GET TO KNOW EACH OTHER.

IN ORDER TO DO THAT, WE ENGAGED A LOT OF FACTIONS AND COMMUNITIES IN THE NATIONAL DIALOGUE AND IN THE GOVERNMENT.

SO A LOT OF MEASURES THAT WE DID HELPED CALM THE SITUATION DOWN BECAUSE IN A LOT OF COUNTRIES THAT SEE CONFLICTS, THERE'S THAT OFTEN LASTS LONGER THAN THE WARS.

SO WE TRY TO AVOID THIS BY TAKING THESE MEASURES AND THE MAJORITY OF THESE MEASURES WERE SUCCESSFUL.

HOWEVER, LET US ALSO BE REALISTIC.

IS SYRIA REQUIRED TO OBTAIN 100% UNANIMITY, THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT?

THIS DOESN'T OCCUR EVEN IN ADVANCED COUNTRIES LIVING IN RELATIVE STABILITY.

HOWEVER, SYRIA HAS MOVED FROM ONE REGIME TO ANOTHER THAT DOES NOT RESEMBLE IT AT ALL FOLLOWING THE SUCCESS OF A POPULAR REVOLUTION.

OF COURSE, THERE WERE PEOPLE WHO WERE DAMAGED BECAUSE THEY WERE BENEFITING FROM THE FORMER REGIME AND WE ARE TRYING TO MANAGE THINGS.

OVER THE PAST YEAR WE DELIVERED A NUMBER OF SIGNIFICANT ACHIEVEMENTS.

OF COURSE, THERE WERE SOME ISSUES THAT ARE COMPLETELY UNACCEPTABLE TO US AND WE ARE WORKING ON HOLDING THOSE WHO CAUSED THEM AND WHO PERPETRATED THEM ACCOUNTABLE.

HOWEVER, ONCE AGAIN, I BELIEVE THAT SYRIA IS ON A POSITIVE PATH.

IT IS TENDING TOWARDS STABILITY.

WE ALSO HAVE ECONOMIC GROWTH AND WE ARE SEEING THE FIRST INDICATIONS OF THIS ECONOMIC GROWTH.

ADDITIONALLY, THE SERVICE ENVIRONMENT HAS IMPROVED OVER THE PAST YEAR.

PEOPLE WERE RECEIVING AN HOUR AND A HALF OF ELECTRICITY PER DAY AND NOW WE HAVE REACHED 12 TO 14 HOURS PER DAY AND HOPEFULLY THIS YEAR WE WILL BE SELF-SUCH IN TERMS OF ELECTRICITY AND WE'RE CONSTANTLY WORKING ON DEVELOPING OUR SERVICES.

SO WE ARE MOVING TO A COMPLETELY DIFFERENT ECONOMIC ENVIRONMENT AND I BELIEVE THE INVESTMENTS THAT WE MANAGED TO ATTRACT WILL GREATLY HELP US ACHIEVE STABILITY.

THAT IS WHY WE ASKED THE UNITED STATES AND WE SAT DOWN WITH CONGRESS MEMBERS A NUMBER OF TIMES TO CONVINCE THEM TO LIFT THE CESAR LAW WHICH WAS IMPOSED ON THE FORMER REGIME GIVEN THE CRIMES THEY PERPETRATED AGAINST THE SYRIAN PEOPLE AND THERE WERE, TODAY THIS LAW SHOULD NOT BE A TOOL TO STARVE THE SYRIAN PEOPLE AND AGAIN, THERE WAS GREAT UNDERSTANDING AND I BELIEVE WE'RE AT THE 95% POINT AND THE CURRENT U.S.

ADMINISTRATION UNDER PRESIDENT TRUMP'S PRESIDENCY SUPPORTS LIFTING THE SANCTIONS IMPOSED ON SYRIA, AS YOU'VE ALL SEEN, AND I BELIEVE THIS APPLIES TO THE MAJORITY OF THE WORLD'S COUNTRIES.

>>> AND WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THE SYRIAN PEOPLE, WE'RE TALKING ABOUT 25 MILLION PEOPLE AND EVEN SYRIA HAS GREAT STRATEGIC IMPORTANCE AND INFLUENCE ON REGIONAL STABILITY AND THIS SHOULD NOT BE LINKED TO SOME PEOPLE WHO ARE NOT CONVINCED WHEN IT COMES TO LIFTING SANCTIONS ON SYRIA.

SO I BELIEVE WE'RE HEADED TOWARDS THE LIFTING OF SANCTIONS.

THIS IS THE WISE THING TO DO AND THIS IS A RESULT OF THE INTEREST LEAKING THROUGH OUT TO THE REST OF THE WORLD.

>> I JUST WANT TO GO BACK TO SOME OF THE MINORITIES WHO ARE AFRAID.

IN MARCH MORE THAN 1,400 ALAWITES, MOSTLY CIVILIANS, WERE KILLED ALONG THE COAST.

THE U.N.

CALLED IT POSSIBLE WAR CRIMES.

IN JULY THERE WERE HUNDREDS OF DRUZE AND PEOPLE KILLED AS WELL AND MANY, MANY DISPLACED.

CAN YOU TELL THOSE PEOPLE FROM THIS SEAT WHAT YOU WILL DO TO MAKE THEM FEEL PART OF A UNIFIED SYRIA AND POTENTIALLY SUPPORTERS OF THE PREVIOUS REGIME?

I KNOW HOW THESE THINGS HAPPEN.

I WAS IN IRAQ WHEN THERE WAS THE U.S.

INTERVENTION.

I SAW WHAT HAPPENED ON THE GROUND WHEN ONE PARTY FELT VICTORIOUS AND ANOTHER PARTY DIDN'T AND I JUST WONDER WHETHER THERE'S A SENSE OF TRIUMPHANCE AMONG SUNNI MUSLIMS AND SYRIA AND WHETHER YOU REALLY CAN KNIT THE COUNTRY TOGETHER.

I KNOW YOU SAID 100% IS NOT POSSIBLE, BUT IN TERMS OF LAW, ORDER, RIGHTS, AND WHAT YOU FEEL ABOUT MAKING THEM ALL PART OF A NEW SYRIA.

>> TODAY WE CANNOT SAY THAT THIS REVOLUTION, THAT THEIR REVOLUTION IN SYRIA, WAS SUNNI REVOLUTION.

ALL THE COMPONENTS OF THE SYRIAN SOCIETY WERE PART OF THE REVOLUTION.

THE CHRISTIANS WERE AFFECTED BY THE PREVIOUS REGIME.

EVEN THE ALAWITES HAD TO PAY THE PRICE OF ABUSE OF THE I DO NOT APPRECIATE THE SAYING ALL THE ALAWITES WERE SUPPORTING THE REGIME.

SOME OF THEM WERE LIVING IN FEAR.

THEY WERE FEARING THE TOPPLING OR WHAT WOULD HAPPEN IF THE REGIME IS TOPPLED.

WHEN WE WENT INTO ALAWITES VILLAGES, WE SAW A LOT OF POVERTY AND PROBLEMS.

IN FACT, WE HAVE INHERITED A BIG PROBLEM WHERE ALL OF US ARE VICTIMS.

IT IS A BIG PROBLEM THAT WE NEED TO DEAL WITH VERY WISELY.

THERE WERE CONFRONTATIONS, IT IS TRUE.

WE HAVE ESTABLISHED A TRUTH FINDING COMMITTEE.

WE KNOW THAT THERE ARE SOME CRIMES THAT WERE PERPETRATED IN THE COAST OR IN SUADA AS YOU SAID, BUT, OF COURSE, THIS IS A NEGATIVE THING, BUT DESPITE THE ATROCITY OF WHAT HAPPENED -- AND WE ARE NOT JUSTIFYING ANYTHING HERE --I INSIST ON THE FACT THAT WE DO NOT ACCEPT WHAT HAPPENED, BUT I SAY THAT SYRIA IS A STATE OF LAW AND THE LAW RULES IN SYRIA.

AND THE LAW IS THE ONLY WAY TO PRESERVE EVERYBODY'S RIGHTS.

I DO NOT LIKE DEFINING SYRIA AS A PLACE WHERE SEVERAL SECTS AND RELIGIONS LIVE.

WE HAVE LEGAL EXPERTS, PHYSICIANS, ENGINEERS.

WE HAVE A LOT OF TALENT.

SO IT IS ONLY NORMAL FOR US TO BE A STATE OF LAW.

IT IS NOT A DEVELOPING COUNTRY.

MAYBE IT IS POOR ECONOMICALLY, BUT IT IS VERY RICH IN CULTURE.

SO REINFORCING THE RULE OF LAW, THE PRINCIPLES OF LAW, REINFORCING ALSO THE RULE OF INSTITUTIONS TO BUILD THE NEW SYRIA IS THE WAY TO GUARANTEE EVERYBODY'S RIGHTS AND THE RIGHTS OF ALL MINORITIES.

WE DID ENTER INTO A DIALOGUE WITH ALL THE PARTIES AND TRIED TO INSTILL THE SPIRIT OF PARTICIPATION AND NOT JUST DIVIDE THE QUARTERS BETWEEN THE DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECTS.

SO WE ARE WITH THE PARTICIPATORY APPROACH TO AVOID WHAT HAPPENED IN IRAQ AS YOU RIGHTLY MENTIONED.

IT IS NOT HEALTHY TO DIVIDE AUTHORITIES AMONG DIFFERENT RELIGIONS AND SECTS.

I THINK THAT GOVERNMENTS AND AUTHORITIES SHOULD BE FORMED BY EXPERTS, BY TECHNOCRATS, REGARDLESS OF THEIR ETHNICITY OR ORIGIN.

TODAY YOU HAVE SEVERAL PARTIES REPRESENTED IN THE SYRIAN GOVERNMENT IN THE PARTICIPATORY APPROACH, AS I SAID.

I THINK THIS IS VERY HEALTHY.

MAYBE SYRIA IS PROVING ONCE AGAIN THAT IT IS GOING IN THE RIGHT PATH.

MAYBE OTHERS WILL LEARN FROM US HOW TO DEAL WITH CRISIS AND WARS, THE AFTERMATH OF THEM.

>> I ALSO THINK YOU HAVE A LOT OF FANS OUT THERE.

I'VE SPOKEN TO SOME NATIONALS.

I WON'T NAME THEM UP HERE.

THEY SAY THEY WANT TO LEARN FROM YOU.

I'M GOING TO ASK ANOTHER QUESTION.

YOU ARE, I GUESS, THE FIRST DEMOCRAT WITH A SMALL D WHO SAYS YOU WANT TO HAVE PARTICIPATORY GOVERNMENT.

YOU WANT TO HAVE RIGHTS FOR EVERYBODY.

YOU WANT TO BE A PRESIDENT FOR EVERYBODY AND YOU WANT SYRIA TO BE A NATION OF LAWS AND CIVIL SOCIETY.

THAT'S HARD.

IT'S VERY HARD.

THERE ARE A LOT OF PEOPLE WHO ARE WONDERING WHETHER YOU DO ACTUALLY --BECAUSE YOU KNOW IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD SOME PEOPLE GET INTO POWER AND STAY FOREVER.

DO YOU SEE ELECTIONS AS A MEANS TO AN END FOR YOUR NATION OR IS IT ABOUT, YOU KNOW, STAYING FOR A LONG TIME AND CONSOLIDATING ALL THE POWER YOU CAN?

I'M JUST SAYING BECAUSE THAT'S WHAT HAPPENS IN THIS PART OF THE WORLD A LOT.

>> THE SYRIANS' SYSTEM IS BASED ON ELECTIONS.

MAYBE ELECTIONS WERE USED IN THE WRONG WAY IN THE PREVIOUS TIMES AND I DO NOT BELIEVE WE ARE READY RIGHT NOW TO UNDERTAKE ELECTIONS, PARLIAMENTARY ELECTIONS, BUT STILL WE DID THIS IN A WAY THAT IS COMPATIBLE WITH THE TRANSITION PHASE.

AND I THINK THAT THE PRINCIPLE OF PEOPLE CHOOSING THEIR LEADERS IS A BASIC PRINCIPLE.

IT IS EVEN PART OF OUR RELIGION IN ISLAM.

WE RULERS HAVE TO GAIN THE SATISFACTION OF THE MAJORITY OF PEOPLE IN ORDER TO RULE PROPERLY.

SO THIS IS WHAT WE BELIEVE IN AND I THINK THIS IS THE SUBSTITUTABLE PATH FOR SYRIA.

I THINK THAT SYRIA, IT SHOULD NOT BE --OR BUILDING SYRIA SHOULD NOT BE LINKED TO PEOPLE OR INDIVIDUALS, BUT RATHER INSTITUTIONS.

THIS IS A CHALLENGE FOR THE FOUR OR FIVE YEARS TO COME BECAUSE WE ARE REBUILDING THE COUNTRY, REBUILDING OUR LAWS, REDRAFTING OUR LAWS WHILE RELYING ON THE RICH CULTURE AND HERITAGE OF SYRIA THAT DATES BACK TO THOUSANDS OF YEARS.

SO I THINK THAT SYRIA WILL MOVE FORWARD ON THIS PATH AND IT IS A HEALTHY AND GOOD PATH.

BUILDING INSTITUTIONS IN SYRIA WILL GUARANTEE THE CONTINUITY OF THE STATE, NOT RELYING ON PEOPLE BECAUSE A PERSON CAN FALL SICK.

THEY CAN DIE.

SO YOU CANNOT LINK A WHOLE PEOPLE TO ONE PERSON.

THAT IS VERY RISKY.

EVEN DEVELOPED COUNTRIES THAT STILL HAVE KINGDOMS TODAY HAVE THEIR SYSTEMS, THEIR INSTITUTIONAL SYSTEMS.

SO IT IS NOT WRONG FOR A COUNTRY TO BE A KINGDOM, BUT SYRIA IS A DIFFERENT PLACE.

IT IS A REPUBLIC.

SO WHETHER IT IS A KINGDOM OR A REPUBLIC, THE IMPORTANT PART IS TO HAVE AN INSTITUTION, A SYSTEM, THAT DOES NOT RELY ON PEOPLE.

>> COULD YOU JUST GIVE US A BROAD IDEA OF WHEN WE'LL HAVE ACTUALLY PROPER REPRESENTATIVE ELECTIONS LIKE FOR A PRESIDENT OR A PRIME MINISTER?

>> AFTER THE LIBERATION OF DAMASCUS WE ORGANIZED A NATIONAL CONFERENCE AND WE HAVE A DECLARATION FOR THE CONSTITUTION AS A RESULT OF THIS.

THIS DECLARATION UNTIL WE HAVE A FINAL CONSTITUTION GAVE THE CURRENT PRESIDENT A MANDATE OF FIVE YEARS AND THEN THERE WILL BE ELECTIONS.

DURING THESE FIVE YEARS MANY LAWS WILL BE ENACTED AND THE CONSTITUTION ALSO WILL BE DRAFTED DURING THESE ELECTIONS AND IT WILL BE PRESENTED DURING THIS PERIOD AND IT WILL BE PRESENTED TO THE PEOPLE.

SO THE CONSTITUTION, AS YOU KNOW, WILL BE THE MAIN SOURCE OF POWER.

SO I WOULD SAY IN FIVE YEARS.

THERE'S ALREADY ONE YEAR THAT'S GONE, SO WE STILL HAVE FOUR YEARS.

>> AND FINALLY, AS YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE A PAST OF BEING A TERRORIST.

I MEAN YOU WORKED FOR AL-QAEDA.

WHAT DO YOU SAY TO PEOPLE IN THIS ROOM, IN FOREIGN CAPITALS, ABOUT WHERE YOUR HEART AND YOUR MIND AND YOUR ALLEGIANCE IS NOW?

WE SEE THAT IN PARTS OF SYRIA NOT ONLY, YOU KNOW, THE T WORD, BUT ALSO THE ISLAMIC CALIPHATE WORD, OKAY, THERE'S NO ISLAMIC CALIPHATE IN SYRIA.

WOMEN SEEM TO BE FAIRLY LIBERATED IN QUITE A LOT OF THE AREAS.

WHERE DO YOU SEE YOUR HISTORY AND HOW YOU DEAL WITH THIS COUNTRY GOING FORWARD IN TERMS OF THE RIGHTS OF WOMEN?

YOU KNOW, WHAT WOULD YOU SAY TO MAYBE SOME GUESTS SITTING IN THIS ROOM WHO HAVE YET TO FULLY EMPOWER AND SOME WHO ABSOLUTELY DENY WOMEN'S RIGHTS?

>> I THINK THE QUESTION HAS A CONTRADICTIONS, BUT STILL I WILL TRY TO ANSWER THE QUESTION.

SAYING THAT I WAS A TERRORIST AND JUDGING ME AS A TERRORIST IS POLITICIZED.

YOU KNOW THAT THERE ARE MANY POLITICIZED OPINIONS TODAY.

JUDGING ON PEOPLE AS TERRORISTS NEED TO BE PROVEN BECAUSE WHAT IS THE DEFINITION OF TERRORISM OR OF A TERRORIST?

IT'S BEEN 25 YEARS OF US HEARING THIS WORD IN THE WORLD, BUT THERE IS A LOT OF CONFUSION IN UNDERSTANDING THE WORD TERRORIST.

TERRORISTS IN MY OPINION ARE THOSE THAT KILL INNOCENT PEOPLE, CHILDREN, AND WOMEN AND THAT USE ILLEGITIMATE MEANS TO HARM PEOPLE.

IF WE TRY TO EXTRAPOLATE THIS DESCRIPTION ON SEVERAL COUNTRIES IN THE WORLD, WE FIND THAT THE NUMBER OF VICTIMS IN GAZA, 60,000 PEOPLE --MOST OF THEM ARE REGIME ALONG 14 YEARS HAS KILLED MORE THAN 1 MILLION PERSONS IN SYRIA AND UNTIL NOW YOU HAVE 250,000 DISAPPEARED PERSONS WITH THEIR DESTINIES UNKNOWN OR THEIR FATE UNKNOWN.

WE HAVE LIBERATED ALL OUR PRISONS, BUT WE STILL DO NOT KNOW ANYTHING ABOUT THESE PEOPLE AND THIS PERSON IS NOT CALLED A TERRORIST OR THIS REGIME IS NOT CALLED A TERRORIST.

WE SAW WARS IN AFGHANISTAN, IN IRAQ.

ALL OF THOSE THAT WERE KILLED WERE INNOCENTS AND IT IS THE KILLERS THAT DESCRIBE OTHERS AS TERRORISTS.

SO I THINK THAT AFTER 25 YEARS PEOPLE ARE NOW MORE AWARE ABOUT WHO IS REAL TERRORIST AND WHO DESERVES TO BE CALLED A TERRORIST.

NOW ON A PERSONAL LEVEL, I HAVE NEVER HARMED A CIVILIAN.

I FOUGHT ON SEVERAL FRONTS AND I FOUGHT FOR MORE THAN 20 YEARS WITH HONOR.

ON THE CONTRARY, I USED TO PUT MYSELF IN DANGER AND ALL OF THOSE WITH ME IN DANGER SO THAT CIVILIANS ARE NOT PUT IN DANGER AND THE LAST BATTLE THAT YOU SAW WHILE YOU WERE SITTING HERE IN DOHA AND YOU SAID THE AGENDA WAS DEVIATED, I THINK THAT IT WAS A MERCIFUL BATTLE.

HAVE YOU EVER SEEN A TERRORIST THAT PREPARES A WHOLE PLAN FOR 11 DAYS TO ENTER BIG CITIES LIKE ALEPPO, DAMASCUS WITHOUT ONE PERSON BEING HARMED?

WE WERE IN A MILITARY BATTLE THAT SHOULD NORMALLY KILL BUT THERE'S NOBODY THAT LEFT THESE VILLAGES AND THESE CITIES.

WE BROKE THE DOORS OF PRISONS WITH OUR OWN HANDS.

WE ARE THE ONES THAT LIBERATED PEOPLE FROM THE SAYEED NAYA PRISON WHERE THE BONES OF PEOPLE USED TO BE BURNT WITH ACID.

HOWEVER, STANDARDS SOMETIMES CHANGE THINGS, BUT I THINK THAT REALITY PREVAILS OR THE TRUTH PREVAILS AT THE END AND PEOPLE NOW KNOW THAT THIS DESCRIPTION IS NOT ACCURATE.

THAT IS WHY I AM NO LONGER LISTED AS A TERRORIST BY THE SECURITY COUNCIL.

>> AND YOU GUARANTEE WOMEN'S RIGHTS --THAT'S A SEPARATE QUESTION -- BUT WOMEN ARE FULLY EMPOWERED?

>> THERE ARE A NUMBER OF HEADLINES THAT ARE BEING CIRCULATED, BUT WOMEN ARE EMPOWERED SORT OF AUTOMATICALLY IN SYRIAN COMMUNITIES.

WHEN WE WERE IN IDLIB, WE ACTUALLY ESTABLISHED A MAJOR UNIVERSITY IN THE CITY, A MAJOR UNIVERSITY WITH ROUGHLY 26,000 STUDENTS, TWO-THIRDS OF WHOM WERE WOMEN AND WOMEN WERE STUDYING AT THOSE UNIVERSITIES SO THAT THEY COULD LATER JOIN GOVERNMENT INSTITUTIONS AS EMPLOYEES OR JOIN THE JOB MARKET.

SO I BELIEVE SYRIAN WOMEN ARE EMPOWERED.

THEIR RIGHTS ARE PROTECTED AND GUARANTEED AND WE CONSTANTLY TRY TO ENSURE THAT WOMEN ARE FULLY PARTICIPATING IN OUR GOVERNMENT, IN OUR PARLIAMENT AS WELL.

AND I BELIEVE YOU SHOULD NOT FEAR FOR SYRIAN WOMEN.

FEAR FOR SYRIAN MEN.

>> PRESIDENT AHMED AL SHARAA, THANK YOU VERY MUCH INDEED.

>> THANK YOU.

>>> TODAY IS A BUSY DAY OF DIPLOMACY FOR UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY AT NUMBER 10 DOWNING STREET IN LONDON AND THEN OFF TO BRUSSELS AND ROME FOR MORE LEADERSHIP MEETINGS.

PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY'S NEGOTIATING TEAM PRESENTED NO SIGNIFICANT BREAK-THROUGHS AT PEACE TALKS OVER THE WEEKEND, BUT PRESIDENT TRUMP VOICED CRITICISM OF THE UKRAINIAN LEADER FOR THE IMPASSE SAYING HE'S A LITTLE DISAPPOINTED PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS NOT READ THE WHITE HOUSE PEACE PLAN.

CLARE SEBASTIAN JOINS US NOW.

I UNDERSTAND THE PRESIDENT'S COMMENTS LAST NIGHT RAISED SOME ALARM BELLS ONCE AGAIN BOTH FOR UKRAINIANS AND ALSO EUROPEAN LEADERS.

AS WE SAID, PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY WAS MEETING WITH PRESIDENT MACRON, WITH PRIME MINISTER STARMER, AND CHANCELLOR MERTZ AND HIS BIG POINT IN THEME WAS THAT FOR UKRAINE TO SUCCEED, THERE NEEDS TO BE UNITY FROM ALL OF ITS PARTNERS.

HERE'S MORE OF WHAT HE SAID.

>> I THINK UNITY BETWEEN EUROPE AND UKRAINE AND ALSO UNITY BETWEEN EUROPE AND UKRAINE AND THE UNITED STATES ARE SOMETHING TO WHICH WE CAN'T MANAGE WITHOUT AMERICA, THINGS WE CAN'T MANAGE WITHOUT EUROPE.

THAT'S WHY WE NEED TO MAKE SOME IMPORTANT DECISIONS.

>> SO THE EUROPEANS ALONG WITH PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SEEM TO BE THESE DAYS MUCH MORE ON THE SAME PAGE THAN THAT OF THE U.S.

PRESIDENT, NOW SUGGESTING PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HASN'T READ THIS 20-POINT PLAN.

I GUESS IT'S BEEN AMENDED FROM THE ORIGINAL 28-POINT PLAN THAT WAS HIGHLY FAVORABLE TOWARDS RUSSIA.

WHAT IS THE REACTION AMONG EUROPEANS, BOTH TO THE PRESIDENT'S COMMENTS AND THIS MEETING TODAY?

>> YEAH.

LOOK, I THINK FROM WHAT WE COULD GATHER FROM THESE MEETINGS AND THE BRIEF STATEMENTS FROM THE LEADERS JUST BEFORE THEY WENT INTO PRIVATE DISCUSSIONS AT 10 DOWNING STREET WAS THE MOOD WAS PRETTY BLEAK HONESTLY.

WE HAD HEARD FROM KEIR STARMER WE WANT A JUST AND LASTING SETTLEMENT FOR UKRAINE IF WE GET SO FAR WHICH I CERTAINLY CAN'T RECALL HEARING FROM MEETINGS WITH HIM LIKE THIS IN THE PAST.

WE HAD THE CHANCELLOR OF GERMANY SPEAKING FAIRLY FRANKLY.

HE SAID SOME OF THE DETAILS IN THE DOCUMENTS, REFERRING TO THE PEACE PROPOSALS COMING OUT OF THE U.S., HE SAID HE'S SKEPTICAL ABOUT THEM.

I THINK THERE'S REAL CONCERN IN EUROPE HAVING BEEN SIDELINED FROM THIS U.S.-LED PROCESS INVOLVING SEPARATE TALKS WITH UKRAINE AND THEN RUSSIA THE PAST COUPLE WEEKS WHAT EXACTLY IS GOING TO COME OUT OF IT.

WE KNOW STARTING WITH THE 28- POINT PEACE PLAN WHICH INCLUDED MANY OF RUSSIA'S MAXIMALIST DEMANDS HAS NOW BEEN WHITTLED DOWN AND BROUGHT A LITTLE BIT TO THE UKRAINIAN PERSPECTIVE, BUT STERNLY EUROPE IS UNDER INCREASING PRESSURE AND I THINK THAT WAS VERY APPARENT TODAY, THE WARM HUGS AND WORDS, BUT UKRAINE NEEDS A LOT MORE THAN IT NEEDS EUROPE TO REALLY STEP UP AND FILL THE GAP BY THE UNITED STATES WHEN IT COMES TO WEAPON SUPPLIES AND CRITICALLY IT NEEDS EUROPE TO FUND IT THROUGH NEXT YEAR.

AT THIS POINT WE DON'T HAVE A CLEAR PLAN FROM EUROPE HOW TO DO THAT.

OBVIOUSLY A LOT OF THAT WILL BOIL DOWN TO WHETHER OR NOT THEY'RE WILLING TO USE THOSE FROZEN RUSSIAN ASSETS, MANY OF WHICH WERE PARKED IN EUROPE.

THERE WAS A BROADER EUROPEAN CONFERENCE CALL THAT HAPPENED ALONGSIDE THIS IN-PERSON MEETING IN LONDON.

WE HEARD FROM THE EU COMMISSION CHIEF WHO SAID SECURING FINANCIAL SUPPORT WILL HELP ENSURE SURVIVAL OF UKRAINE AND IS A CRUCIAL ACT OF EUROPEAN DEFENSE.

THAT PRESSURE IS MOUNTING IN EUROPE.

THERE'S A EUROPEAN COUNCIL MEETING NEXT WEEK WITH EUROPEAN LEADERS.

I THINK THAT TOPIC WILL BE A KEY POINT OF DISCUSSION.

>> PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY SAID A MEETING OF THE COALITION WILL TAKE PLACE THIS WEEK AS WELL.

I THINK A LOT OF THIS TREPIDATION, CLARE, UNDERSTANDABLY SO, IS COMING AFTER THE WHITE HOUSE SORT OF QUIETLY RELEASED ITS NATIONAL SECURITY STRATEGY LAST WEEK AND DEVIATIONS FROM PREVIOUS STRATEGIES AND DOCUMENTS RELEASED ON NATIONAL SECURITY FROM THE U.S.

AND FROM EVEN PRESIDENT TRUMP'S FIRST TERM IN OFFICE.

THERE'S A LOT OF HOSTILITY DIRECTED TOWARDS EUROPE FOCUSING MORE TOWARD THEIR DOMESTIC POLICIES AND ITS COHESION WITH REGARD TO SUPPORTING NATO AND SEEMINGLY MORE OF A NEUTRAL ROLE AS IT RELATES TO RUSSIA, THIS BEING VIEWED QUITE WARMLY BY THE RUSSIANS AND WELCOMED, NOT AS MUCH BY THE EUROPEANS.

HOW ARE THEY RESPONDING?

>> YEAH.

WE'VE HAD SOME RESPONSE FROM EUROPE TO THAT TODAY AND I THINK ON THE ONE HAND, PERHAPS THEY SHOULDN'T BE SURPRISED.

IT DEFINITELY SEEMS TO BE FOLLOWING ON FROM THE TONE VICE PRESIDENT J.D.

VANCE STRUCK IN THAT MUNICH SPEECH BACK IN FEBRUARY, BUT THE RESPONSE COMES FROM THE EU SPOKESPERSON FOR FOREIGN AFFAIRS AND SECURITY POLICY AND IT WAS VERY DIPLOMATIC.

SHE FOCUSED MOSTLY ON THE THE STRONG PRIORITY THE STRATEGY PLACES ON ENDING RUSSIA'S WAR AGAINST UKRAINE.

WE FULLY AGREE EUROPE REMAINS STRATEGICALLY AND CONSULT RALLY VITAL TO THE UNITED STATES.

THE STATEMENT SAYS WHEN IT COMES TO DECISIONS RELATING TO THE EUROPEAN UNION, THEY ARE TAKING BY THE EUROPEAN UNION FOR THE EUROPEAN UNION AND INCLUDING THOSE RELATING TO OUR REGULATORY AUTONOMY AND PROTECTION OF FREEDOM OF SPEECH.

CLEARLY I THINK THIS IS YET ANOTHER MEASURE ALONGSIDE WHAT WE SAW AT 10 DOWNING STREET TODAY OF THE DIPLOMATIC TIGHTROPE, THIS INCREDIBLY DIFFICULT BALANCING ACT EUROPE HAS TO WALK ON THE ONE HAND DEALING WITH THESE ISSUES THAT ARE BOTH UNPALLATABLE WHEN IT COMES TO EUROPEAN SOVEREIGNTY AND THE WAR IN UKRAINE WHILE ALSO STAYING DIPLOMATIC TO KEEP THE U.S.

ON SIDE AND MAKE SURE THEY STAY ENGAGED IN THIS UKRAINE ISSUE AND NATO.

>> YEAH.

CLARE, THERE SEEMS TO BEING AN INCREASING, I GUESS, MORE WILLINGNESS TO SPEAK PUBLICLY, EUROPEAN LEADERS I'M REFERRING TO, ABOUT THEIR CONCERNS RUSSIA WON'T STOP AT UKRAINE, THAT WHAT MAY HAVE JUST BEEN MOTTOS AND WORDS IN SUPPORT OF UKRAINE SAYING THAT YOUR WAR AND YOUR FIGHT IS OUR FIGHT MAY ACTUALLY BECOME A REALITY THAT THEY'RE STARTING TO ENVISION THEMSELVES.

>> YEAH.

AND I THINK THE MOMENT WHERE THAT MAY WELL HAVE STARTED, THE REAL CHANGE WE SAW WAS WHEN POLAND HAD TO ACTUALLY PHYSICALLY SHOOT DOWN RUSSIAN DRONES OVER ITS TERRITORY BACK IN SEPTEMBER AND WE'VE SEEN MORE DRONE INCURSIONS SINCE THEN.

WE'VE SEEN FIGHTER JETS IN ESTONIAN AIRSPACE.

I THINK THIS SORT OF HYPOTHETICAL THREAT PRESIDENT ZELENSKYY HAS SPENT THE ENTIRE WAR WARNING ABOUT IS NOW MUCH MORE REAL TO EUROPEAN GOVERNMENTS.

WE HEAR MUCH MORE TALK AND ACTION WHEN IT COMES TO SET TOAL PREPAREDNESS.

I THINK THIS >>> 2025 HAS BEEN A PIVOTAL YEAR IN THE UNITED STATES MARKED BY MAJOR FAST MOVING CHANGES IN POLITICS, THE ECONOMY, AND, OF COURSE, HEALTHCARE.

PHYSICIANS ACROSS AMERICA ARE GRAPPLING WITH THE CONTROVERSIAL CDC ADVISORY PANEL DECISION TO END UNIVERSAL HEPATITIS B SHOTS FOR BABIES, THIS AFTER THE U.S.

GOVERNMENT DID NOT COMMEMORATE WORLD AIDS DAY LAST WEEK, SHAKING UP ITS APPROACH TO HIV-AIDS TREATMENT AND PREVENTION.

IN AUGUST DR.

DEMETRE DASKALAKIS RESIGNED FROM THE CDC, ACCUSING THE AGENCY UNDER ROBERT F. KENNEDY JR.

OF IGNORING SCIENCE.

HERE HE IS WITH HARI SREENIVASAN.

>> DR.

DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

WORLD AIDS DAY JUST WENT BY AND THERE WAS A STATE DEPARTMENT "REFRAIN FROM PUBLICLY PROMOTING WORLD AIDS DAY THROUGH ANY COMMUNICATION CHANNELS, INCLUDING SOCIAL MEDIA, MEDIA ENGAGEMENTS, SPEECHES, OR OTHER PUBLIC- FACING MESSAGING," AND YOU'RE AN INFECTIOUS DISEASE PHYSICIAN WHO HAS DEDICATED HIS CAREER TO FIGHTING HIV AND AIDS.

WHAT WAS YOUR REACTION TO THIS?

>> SADLY, IT WAS ONE OF NOT BEING SURPRISED.

I THINK THIS WAS REALLY SYMPTOMATIC OF THE BIGGER PROBLEM, WHICH IS THE CURRENT ADMINISTRATION DISMANTLING SO MANY OF THE SYSTEMS GLOBALLY AND DOMESTICALLY THAT HAVE BEEN CRITICAL IN GETTING US TO A PLACE IN THE FIGHT AGAINST HIV WHERE WE COULD POTENTIALLY SEE THE END OF THE HIV EPIDEMIC IN SIGHT NOT ONLY IN THE U.S., BUT AROUND THE WORLD.

>> THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S JUSTIFICATION FOR THIS WAS SAYING AWARENESS IS NOT A STRATEGY.

THIS DOESN'T NECESSARILY SOLVE HIV.

WE'RE DOING LOTS OF REAL WORK WITH OUR COUNTRIES TO TRY TO BRING THE NUMBER OF INFECTIONS WHAT'S WRONG WITH THEIR THINKING?

>> YEAH.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THEIR THINKING IS --I AGREE WITH THEM, THAT THE COMMEMORATION DAY IS NOT A STRATEGY, BUT THEY'RE DISMANTLING ALL THE STRATEGIES.

SO I THINK THAT IT'S A LITTLE BIT OF A BAIT AND SWITCH TO SAY THE COMMENT RACING THE COMMEMORATION DAY IS NOT A STRATEGY WHEN THEY ARE REALLY ATTACKING PEPFAR WHICH IS RESPONSIBLE FOR SAVING LIVES.

IT IS CRITICAL FOR SEEING PEOPLE GET ANTI-VIRAL THERAPY AND ALSO ACCOUNTS FOR ABOUT 90% OF THE GLOBAL PRE-EXPOSURE PROPHYLAXIS FOR THE WORLD.

THAT IS A STRATEGY AND THAT'S THE PROBLEM.

THERE'S DOUBLE SPEAK AND DEFLECTION FROM THE REALITY THAT YES, NOT COMMEMORATING WORLD AIDS DAY DOES NOT NECESSARILY MEAN THAT THERE'S NO COMMITMENT.

WHAT MEANS THERE'S NO COMMITMENT IS THE ACTIONS THEY'VE TAKEN SHOWING THEY WANT TO DISMANTLE THE STRATEGIES THAT WORKED IN THE PAST.

>> LET'S TALK A LITTLE BIT ABOUT PEPFAR.

>> YEAH.

>> I THINK FOR PEOPLE THAT AREN'T THAT FAMILIAR WITH IT, THIS IS SOMETHING THAT HAS BEEN SUPPORTED BY EVERY ADMINISTRATION SINCE IT'S BEEN FORMED STARTING WITH THE REPUBLICAN ADMINISTRATIONS, RIGHT?

AND THIS IS CREDITED WITH THE TYPES OF LIFE SAVING THAT YOU'RE TALKING ABOUT LITERALLY IN THE 24 TO 26 MILLION HUMAN BEINGS RANGE AND IT DELIVERS ALL SORTS OF HIV TESTING, ANTI- RETROVIRAL THERAPIES, PREVENTION OF MOTHER-TO-CHILD TRANSMISSION, BUT IT KIND OF HAS IN THE UNITED STATES A COUPLE OF DIFFERENT PARENTS, IF YOU WILL, WHEN IT COMES TO FUNDING.

IT'S GOT THE STATE DEPARTMENT AND THEN HHS OR CDC.

SO WHAT SPECIFICALLY IS HAPPENING TO THOSE SOURCES OF FUNDING THAT ARE THREATENING THE SUCCESS OR CONTINUANCE OF PEPFAR?

>> THE CERTAINTY AROUND FUNDING HAS RESULTED IN PARALYSIS OF THE PROGRAM.

SO THE FIRST IS THAT USAID WAS COMPLETELY DISMANTLED IN THE ADMINISTRATION.

FOR A WHILE THEY ACTUALLY EVEN STOPPED SENDING RESOURCES TO THE COUNTRIES THAT WERE BEING SUPPORTED BY PEPFAR AND THROUGH VARIOUS LEGAL INJUNCTIONS, ET CETERA SOME OF THAT MONEY FLOWS AGAIN, BUT ULTIMATELY THERE HAS BEEN AN INTERRUPTION IN PROVIDING LIFE-SAVING ANTI- RETROVIRAL THERAPY WHICH HAS MANIFESTED ITSELF IN TENS OF THOUSANDS OF PEOPLE THAT HAVE ALREADY DIED FROM SOME OF THE MODELS I'VE SEEN.

THERE'S THE DISMANTLING OF USAID AND NOW ALSO LIKELY AN ATTACK ON CDC WITH THE PRESIDENT'S BUDGET REALLY NOT SUPPORTING GLOBAL PUBLIC HEALTH AT CDC.

SO THAT COULD MEAN UNFUNDING WHAT IS ONE OF THE MOST IMPORTANT PUBLIC HEALTH INTERVENTIONS GLOBALLY WHICH IS PEPFAR THAT HAS SAVED, AS YOU SAID, 26 PLUS MILLION LIVES.

>> JUST TO PUT IT IN PERSPECTIVE FOR PEOPLE, I THINK GLOBALLY THERE WERE 1.3 MILLION NEW HIV INFECTIONS, RIGHT?

THIS IS NOT SOMETHING WE HAVE COMPLETELY BEATEN.

IT IS STILL HAPPENING.

IT IS STILL BEING TRANSMITTED FROM CHILDREN TO MOTHERS, BETWEEN INDIVIDUALS.

WHAT'S THE STATUS OF PEPFAR TODAY?

I MEAN IF THESE SOURCES OF FUNDING ARE THREATENED?

>> PEPFAR'S FUTURE IS TENUOUS AT BEST.

IT SEEMS AS IF THERE IS SOME ONGOING COMMITMENT TO PEPFAR, BUT IT SEEMS AS IT IS POTENTIALLY VERY SHORT-LIVED AND DOESN'T REALLY TAKE INTO ACCOUNT THE CRITICAL ROLE OF PEPFAR IN DOING TWO THINGS OTHER THAN DOING SOMETHING VERY GOOD FOR MAINTAINING THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE GLOBALLY.

IT MAINTAINS GLOBAL HEALTH SECURITY BECAUSE IT CREATES AN INFRASTRUCTURE IF WE HAVE TO RESPOND TO OTHER BIG INFECTIOUS DISEASES AND SO THE WRITING IS ON THE WALL.

THERE IS NOT ONLY A RELEASE OF THE ACCELERATOR ON THE PROGRESS TO END THE HIV EPIDEMIC, THIS ADMINISTRATION IS PUMPING THE SO IT'S NOT JUST SLOWING DOWN.

IF PEPFAR GOES AWAY, THAT MEANS STOPPING THE ENTIRE STORY.

THAT'S GOING TO NOT MEAN JUST SOME STRANGE POLICY ISSUE.

IT'S GOING TO MEAN PEOPLE WILL DIE.

>> THE STATE DEPARTMENT'S RATIONALE OR THINKING IS LOOK, WE HAVE TO STOP BEING THE PEOPLE THAT ARE THE ONLY ONES WRITING THE CHECK.

WE HAVE TO TRANSITION THIS TO THE HOST COUNTRIES.

WE HAVE TO HELP THEM GET TO A POINT WHERE THEY CAN FIGHT HIV ON THEIR OWN.

JUST THURSDAY THE U.S.

AND KENYA SIGNED, I GUESS, THE FIRST AMERICA FIRST GLOBAL HEALTH AGREEMENT WHICH WE'RE GOING TO SEE THE U.S.

CONTRIBUTE ABOUT 1.7 BILLION TOWARDS HIV, AIDS, MALARIA, TUBERCULOSIS TREATMENT AND PREVENTION IN KENYA AND THE KENYANS HAVE TO COME UP WITH 850 MILLION.

THEY THINK OR SAY THERE ARE GOING TO BE OTHER COUNTRIES THAT WILL DO THIS.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT STRATEGY?

>> YEAH.

I THINK REALLY THERE'S ALREADY BEEN A PEPFAR STRATEGY FOR TRANSITIONING AND IT REALLY WAS ONE THAT WAS METERED AND DESIGNED TO MAKE SURE THAT THERE WERE NO CHILDREN OR ADULTS LEFT BEHIND WHO WILL SUFFER OR DIE FROM HIV.

INSTEAD WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS AN EMERGENCY BAILOUT BECAUSE FOR THE LAST LIKE EIGHT OR NINE MONTHS THERE HAS BEEN NO PLANNING ABOUT WHAT TO DO AROUND PEPFAR.

THERE HAS ONLY BEEN DESTRUCTION AND DECOMPOSITION OF THE PROGRAMS THAT SUPPORT THE WORK.

SO ONE COUNTRY HAVING AN AGREEMENT MEANS THAT WE'RE MANY, MANY, MANY COUNTRIES AWAY FROM HAVING WHAT WE NEED TO SUPPORT THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE GLOBALLY.

I THINK THE OTHER PART THAT IS IMPORTANT IS THE U.S.

IS THE GLOBAL LEADER IN PUBLIC HEALTH.

IT IS OUR MORAL RESPONSIBILITY TO SUPPORT THESE COUNTRIES.

IF WE DECIDE TO CHANGE OUR FUNDING STRATEGY, WE NEED TO DO IT IN A WAY THAT, IN FACT, DOES NOT LET PEOPLE DIE.

AND SO I THINK THAT THE ARGUMENT IS A GREAT ONE IN TERMS OF TRANSITIONING RESPONSIBILITY AND GIVING, I GUESS, MORE DOMINION TO THESE COUNTRIES.

NEEDS TO BE DONE WITH A STRATEGY, NOT WITH A BILATERAL AGREEMENT THAT, IN FACT, MAKES AID TO THE COUNTRY TRANSACTIONAL BECAUSE THE OTHER PART OF THOSE AGREEMENTS IS YOU HAVE TO GIVE US YOUR DATA AND YOU HAVE TO GIVE US YOUR SPECIMENS AND THAT IS REALLY WHAT IS UNDERLYING ALL OF THIS.

THEY ARE TRYING TO TRADE AID, SUPPORT FOR PEOPLE LIVING WITH HIV, FOR PUBLIC HEALTH INTELLIGENCE AND THAT IS THEIR STRATEGY TO REPLACE THE W.H.O.

AND THAT IS NOT A STRATEGY THAT IS EITHER MORAL, NOR POTENTIALLY ONE THAT IS DURABLE.

>> WE'VE TALKED A LITTLE BIT ABOUT HIV ON A GLOBAL STAGE.

I WANT TO BRING FOR OUR AMERICAN AUDIENCE A LITTLE PERSPECTIVE TO THIS, TOO.

WE'VE HAD ALMOST 40,000 NEW HIV INFECTIONS IN 2023.

I THINK THE NUMBERS ARE FAIRLY SIMILAR IN 2024 AND I WONDER, YOU KNOW, WHEN YOU HAVE SOMETHING LIKE PRE-EXPOSURE TO PROFILE PROFYLAXIS AVAILABLE.

>> THIS IS A STIGMA AND ACCESS GAME IN THE UNITED STATES.

PEOPLE DO NOT ACCESS CARE.

THEY DON'T ACCESS TESTING BECAUSE IT'S SCARY.

PEOPLE ARE MADE INVISIBLE BECAUSE OF THE STIGMA THAT IS GETTING EVEN WORSE IN THE UNITED STATES WITH SOME OF THE ACTIVITY AGAINST LGBTQ SINCE THEY ARE SUCH AN IMPORTANT COMPONENT OF WHAT HAPPENS DOMESTICALLY FOR HIV.

YOU HAVE AMAZING TECHNOLOGY THAT'S GOING TO SIT ON THE SHELF BECAUSE PEOPLE AREN'T GOING TO GET TESTED.

THEY'RE NOT GOING TO ACCESS PRE- EXPOSURE PROPHYLAXIS AND THAT'S GOING TO MEAN MORE HIV INFECTION.

I'M THINKING ABOUT NEW YORK.

THEY DO AMAZING WORK IN HIV AND THEIR NEW EPIDEMIOLOGY SHOWS AN THAT IS NOT GOOD.

SO THAT IS A TREND THAT YOU'RE GOING TO, I THINK, SEE THROUGHOUT THE WORLD AND THROUGHOUT THE COUNTRY AND I NEED TO BE VERY CLEAR.

IT'S GOING TO BE WORSE IN STATES THAT CAN LEAST AFFORD IT.

SO I WOULD EXPECT THAT WE'LL ALSO SEE INCREASING HIV RATES IN THE SOUTH GIVEN SOME OF THE ISSUES RELATED TO ACCESS AS WELL AS STIGMA.

I'VE SEEN PATIENTS IN ATLANTA AND I HAVE NEVER SEEN SO MUCH STIGMA ACTUALLY INTERACT WITH AN INFECTION TO RESULT IN SOME TERRIBLE OUTCOMES IN THE PEOPLE THAT I'VE TAKEN CARE OF.

SO I THINK THIS IS A PREVIEW OF WHAT'S TO COME.

>> YOU RECENTLY WERE AT THE CDC.

YOU WERE THE DIRECTOR OF THE NATIONAL CENTER FOR IMMUNIZATION AND RESPIRATORY DISEASES AND YOU VERY PUBLICLY RESIGNED THIS PAST AUGUST AND IN YOUR RESIGNATION LETTER I JUST WANT TO QUOTE ONE PHRASE.

"I AM UNABLE TO SERVE IN AN ENVIRONMENT THAT TREATS CDC AS A TOOL TO GENERATE POLICIES AND SCIENTIFIC REALITY AND ARE DESIGNED TO HURT RATHER THAN TO IMPROVE THE PUBLIC'S HEALTH."

WHAT ARE SOME OF THE SPECIFIC KIND OF POLICIES THAT THE CDC WAS GOING AFTER THAT MADE YOU SAY I CAN'T BE PART OF THIS ANYMORE?

>> I THINK THE LIST CONTINUES TO GROW.

I THINK ONE GREAT EXAMPLE WAS THE CREATION OF AN AUTISM IN VACCINES WEB PAGE THAT TRIED TO LINK AUTISM AND VACCINES DESPITE DECADES OF SCIENCE DEMONSTRATING THAT THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

IN EFFECT, WITHOUT ANY NEW DATA CDC LIKE A WOLF IN SHEEP'S CLOTHING PUT UP A WEBSITE THAT SAID THAT THERE'S NO SCIENTIFIC EVIDENCE.

IT IS NOT SCIENTIFICALLY ACCURATE TO SAY VACCINES DO NOT CAUSE AUTISM AND THAT IS BASED ON NOTHING.

WHAT YOU'RE SEEING IS THE CDC IS BEING CREATED INTO A RUBBER STAMP THAT, IN FACT, CLOAKS CONSPIRACY AND PSEUDOSCIENCE IN THE GARB OF SCIENCE AND REALLY VALID SCIENTIFIC STATEMENTS.

WE'RE LITERALLY SEEING THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES MAKE DECISIONS WITH NO PRESENTED DATA.

THEY MADE A DECISION ABOUT HOW VACCINES SHOULD BE ADMINISTERED TO BABIES AND WHAT TESTING SHOULD BE DONE FOR VACCINES THAT ARE BASED ON ABSOLUTELY NO MEDICAL OR SCIENTIFIC DATA.

THAT'S WHY I RESIGNED.

IF I HADN'T RESIGNED MONTHS AGO, I WOULD HAVE RESIGNED TODAY.

>> IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE ABOUT HEPATITIS B, I MEAN THIS IS SOMETHING DECADES LONG NOW WE MADE A RECOMMENDATION THAT NEWBORNS GET VACCINATED FOR THIS LIVER DISEASE, RIGHT?

AND THE RECENT RECOMMENDATION SAYS THAT PARENTS SHOULD CHECK WITH THEIR DOCTORS AND SHOULD NOT GIVE SHOTS ANY EARLIER THAN 2 MONTHS.

>> YEAH.

I MEAN WHAT WE SAW WITH THIS DECISION AROUND THE BIRTH DOSE OF HEPATITIS B, FIRST OF ALL, THEY DIDN'T REALLY CHANGE VERY MUCH.

SO SHARED CLINICAL DECISION MAKING MEANS YOU TALK TO YOUR DOCTOR ABOUT WHAT VACCINES YOUR KIDS SHOULD GET.

THAT'S WHAT WE DO ALL THE TIME.

THAT'S JUST TRYING TO HAVE SOME SORT OF PERFORMATIVE DEMONSTRATION OF SUPPORT OF PEOPLE WHO THINK THERE NEEDS TO BE MORE MEDICAL FREEDOM.

THAT'S WHAT YOU'RE SEEING.

IT ACTUALLY HASN'T CHANGED VERY MUCH.

ON THE FLIP SIDE, THE UNCERTAINTY CREATED BY THIS DISCUSSION IMPLIES THAT THERE'S SOMETHING WRONG WITH THIS VACCINE, THAT THERE IS MORE RISK THAN BENEFIT AND THAT IS JUST NOT CORRECT.

THE KIDS THAT GET HEPATITIS, ABOUT 11% OF THEM DO NOT HAVE A MOTHER OR DO NOT HAVE A MOTHER WITH A POSITIVE HEPATITIS B TEST.

I FIND IT INTOLERABLE IN THE UNITED STATES TO LET ABOUT 11% OF THOSE KIDS FALL THROUGH THE CRACKS BECAUSE THEY GOT IT FROM A CAREGIVER.

KIDS GO TO DAY CARE.

KIDS HAVE OTHER CAREGIVERS.

THERE'S NO AMOUNT OF MEDICAL HISTORY IN AN IMPERFECT SYSTEM THAT WILL TELL YOU WHICH KIDS ARE AT RISK BEYOND THE FACT MOTHER IS NEGATIVE FOR HEPATITIS.

SO THERE'S NO SCIENCE BEHIND THE DECISION.

IT'S ABOUT VIBES.

THERE'S A FEELING AND THESE ARE THE FEELINGS THAT HAVE BEEN ELEVATED TO THE PLACE OF SCIENCE USING THAT CDC RUBBER STAMP AND THAT'S GOING TO END UP RESULT IN CHILDREN GETTING HEPATITIS B.

90% OF THEM WILL GO ON TO CHRONIC INFECTION AND 25% OF THEM WILL DIE EARLY OF THAT INFECTION.

SO AS SOMEONE ON THE COMMITTEE SAID, THIS COMMITTEE IS NOW GOING TO HAVE TO TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR A CHANGE IN POLICY THAT WILL DO HARM AND THAT IS AGAINST OUR HIPPOCRATIC OATH AS DOCTORS.

>> SO YOU HAVE MOVED ON AND YOU HAVE DECIDED TO BE THE CHIEF MEDICAL OFFICER A COMMUNITY IN NEW YORK CITY THAT PROVIDES SERVICES FOR THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY.

WHAT TYPE OF WORK AND WHY?

>> IT'S GOING BACK TO MY ROOTS.

I MEAN SO MUCH OF THE WORK I DID IN NEW YORK BEFORE I WENT TO FEDERAL GOVERNMENT WAS SPECIFICALLY FOCUSING ON THE LGBTQ COMMUNITY.

SO I'M SORT OF GOING BACK TO THE ROOTS OF WHAT BROUGHT ME TO PUBLIC HEALTH.

THE WHY IS I DON'T THINK THERE'S ANY POINT IN BEING INVOLVED IN THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT RIGHT NOW BECAUSE IT'S ACTUALLY LOOKING TO DESTROY PUBLIC HEALTH THAN BUILD IT.

SO ONE OF THE THINGS THAT'S PART OF MY CAREER IS REALLY MOVING BETWEEN LOCAL AND NATIONAL AND DOING IT SEAMLESSLY.

SO I THINK RIGHT NOW THE GRASSROOTS IS THE PLACE THAT WE NEED TO BE TO PROTECT THE HEALTH OF PEOPLE BECAUSE IT'S QUITE CLEAR THAT THE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT IS NOT.

>> GIVEN WHAT YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT INSIDE FEDERAL GOVERNMENT, IS IT EASY TO RECRUIT?

ARE THERE OTHER OF YOUR PEERS THAT YOU SEE WHO ARE STRUGGLING WITH THESE DECISIONS WHO ARE ON THE FENCE?

>> I THINK IT'S GOING TO BE REALLY HARD TO RECRUIT PEOPLE INTO FEDERAL SERVICE, ESPECIALLY IN PUBLIC HEALTH.

I THINK IT'S FAIR TO SAY MANY OF MY COLLEAGUES ARE ACTIVELY SEARCHING FOR OTHER ROLES BECAUSE THEY'RE SEEING THEIR EFFECTIVENESS IN THIS SORT OF GREAT.

THERE ARE OTHERS WHO ARE REALLY TRYING TO STEADY THE SHIP AND THEY'RE CENTERING A LOT OF TURMOIL IN THEIR OWN LIVES BECAUSE WHEN YOU SEE THINGS LIKE THE ADVISORY COMMITTEE ON IMMUNIZATION PRACTICES, ON CAPRICIOUS ANNOUNCEMENTS AROUND VACCINES AND AUTISM, IT'S REALLY HARD TO SAY THEY'RE OUR HEROES.

IT'S LIKE AN AIRPLANE AND RIGHT NOW THE CDC SCIENTISTS ARE ON THE AIRPLANE HELD HOSTAGE BY THIS LEADERSHIP AT HHS AND REALLY WE NEED TO SEND ALL THE LOVE TO THOSE SCIENTISTS BECAUSE THEY'RE TRYING THEIR BEST TO DO THEIR JOB, BUT THAT PLANE IS NOT BEING NAVIGATED BY ANYONE WHO SHOULD NAVIGATE IT.

>> I THINK THERE ARE ALSO PEOPLE IN THE UNITED STATES WHO THINK OKAY, FINE.

THERE'S GOING TO BE A NEW ADMINISTRATION.

WE CAN FIX THIS.

WHAT'S WRONG WITH THAT THINKING?

YOU'VE BEEN TALKING ABOUT KIND OF INFRASTRUCTURE WHICH HAS HOW LONG WILL IT TAKE TO REBUILD?

>> THE CURRENT LEADERSHIP AT HHS, SECRETARY KENNEDY AND THE PEOPLE THAT WORK FOR HIM, ARE ABLE TO IN ONE OR TWO MINUTES DESTROY DECADES OF WORK AND SO I THINK THAT'S WHAT WE'RE SEEING, CREATING MISTRUST, YANKING FUNDING FOR SIGNIFICANT WORK.

IF YOU DON'T HAVE WORK AND RESOURCES, NOT ONLY DOES THE WORKFORCE PIPELINE DRIES UP, BUT THE INNOVATION PIPELINE DRIES UP.

WHAT WE'RE GOING TO SEE IS LESS SCIENCE, LESS SCIENTISTS AND ULTIMATELY THAT'S GOING TO HAVE RAMIFICATIONS FOR DECADES AND AGAIN, WHAT I'M WORRIED ABOUT IS THIS ADMINISTRATION WILL PASS AND A NEW ADMINISTRATION WILL COME, BUT THE IMPACTS OF WHAT'S HAPPENING TODAY ARE GOING TO BE FELT FOR DECADES BECAUSE OF HOW HARD IT WILL BE TO REBUILD IN THE ENVIRONMENT THAT'S BEEN CREATED.

>> DR.

DEMETRE DASKALAKIS, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH.

>>> FINALLY, A CHILD STAR IN INDIA SHAKING UP THE CHESS WORLD.

AT JUST 3 YEARS OLD, SAR WAGIA SINGH KUSHWAHA HAS BECOME THE YOUNGEST PLAYER IN HISTORY TO GET A RATING FROM THE GLOBAL GOVERNING BOARD.

ALREADY DEFEATING OPPONENTS EIGHT TIMES HIS AGE, HE JOINS A GROWING WAVE OF YOUNG TALENT.

HE PICKED UP THE GAME WHEN HE WAS JUST 30 MONTHS OLD AND NOW HE PRACTICES UP TO FIVE HOURS A DAY.

HIS FATHER SAID WITHIN A WEEK OF LEARNING THE RULES, HIS SON COULD IDENTIFY EVERY PIECE ON THE BOARD AND THAT HIS FAMILY IS ALREADY DREAMING OF GRAND MASTER STATUS.

>>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.

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