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♪ >>> HELLO, AND WELCOME TO "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
HERE'S WHAT'S COMING UP.
A CHILLING REPORT FROM IRAN AFTER THE BRUTAL CRACKDOWN ON PROTESTERS, FAMILY MEMBERS SAY THEY WERE FORCED TO LIE ABOUT HOW THEIR LOVED ONES DIED.
THEN, CAN ANYTHING REIGN IN THE DARK SIDE OF ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE?
I SPEAK WITH RESEARCHER NATE SOARES ABOUT HIS PROVOCATIVELY NAMED BOOK, IF ANYONE BUILDS IT, EVERYONE DIES.
AND -- >> WE HAD ARGUMENTS AND ALL OF THAT, BUT WE LOVED EACH OTHER ALL OUR LIVES.
>> PAUL McCARTNEY AS YOU HAVE NEVER SEEN HIM.
AWARD-WINNING DIRECTOR MORGAN NEVILLE JOINS ME ON HIS NEW DOCUMENTARY MAN ON THE RUN.
>> ONE IN TEN PEOPLE AND THE PLANET AFFECTED BY A RARE DISEASE.
>> MATTER OF TIME.
DR.
JEAN TANG AND VENTURE FLYNNIST MICHAEL HUND SPEAK WITH HARI SREENIVASAN ABOUT THE FIGHT TO CURE A LIFE-THREATENING SKIN DISEASE WITH THE HELP OF ROCK STAR EDDIE VEDDER.
♪ >> Announcer: "AMANPOUR & COMPANY" IS MADE POSSIBLE BY THE ANDERSON FAMILY ENDOWMENT.
JIM ATTWOOD AND LESLIE WILLIAMS.
CANDACE KING WEIR.
THE SYLVIA A. AND SIMON B. POYTA PROGRAMMING ENDOWMENT TO FIGHT ANTISEMITISM.
THE STRAUS FAMILY FOUNDATION.
THE PETER G. PETERSON AND JOAN GANZ COONEY FUND.
CHARLES ROSENBLUM.
MONIQUE SCHOEN WARSHAW.
KOO AND PATRICIA YUEN, COMMITTED TO BRIDGING CULTURAL DIFFERENCES IN OUR COMMUNITIES.
BARBARA HOPE ZUCKERBERG.
AND BY CONTRIBUTIONS TO YOUR PBS STATION FROM VIEWERS LIKE YOU.
THANK YOU.
>>> A WARM WELCOME, EVERYONE.
I'M SITTING IN FOR CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR.
NUCLEAR TALKS BETWEEN THE U.S.
AND IRAN IN GENERAL EVE HAVE BEEN INTENSE ANTDS SERIOUS ACCORDING TO AN IRANIAN OFFICIAL.
THE WORLD IS STILL WAITING TO SEE IF A DIPLOMATIC OFF-RAMP CAN BE FOUND OR IF THE ENORMOUS BUILD-UP OF U.S.
MILITARY ASSETS IN THE REGION WILL BE DEPLOYED.
MEANTIME, DETAILS ARE STILL COMING TO LIGHT ABOUT THE REGIME'S BLOODY JANUARY CRACKDOWN ON PROTESTERS.
THIS REPORT, INCLUDING TESTIMONY FROM VICTIMS' FAMILIES WHO SAY THEY WERE FORCED TO LIE ABOUT HOW THEIR LOVED ONES DIED, AND A WARNING.
THERE ARE GRAPHIC IMAGES IN THIS PIECE.
>> Reporter: IN GRIEF, THEY DANCE.
CELEBRATING THE LIFE OF THOSE THEY'VE LOST.
THIS IS HOW IRANIANS ARE DEFYING THEIR RUTHLESS CLERICAL REGIME.
IT'S NOT ONLY KILLED THOUSANDS IN ITS BLOODIEST CRACKDOWN EVER, BUT ONE THAT IS ALSO TRYING TO BURY THE TRUTH.
OVER THE PAST FEW WEEKS, WE'VE COLLECTED TESTIMONY POINTING TO A WIDESPREAD EFFORT BY IRANIAN AUTHORITIES TO PRESSURE FAMILIES OF ITS VICTIMS INTO SILENCE AND FALSIFYING THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF HOW THOSE PROTESTERS WERE KILLED.
>> Translator: THE FAMILY WERE VISITED BY PARAMILITARY SOURCES AND GUARDS.
THEY TOLD THE FATHER HE WAS TALKING TOO MUCH BECAUSE HE SAID HIS SON WAS SHOT IN FRONT OF HIS EYES.
>> Reporter: THIS MAN WE ARE NOT IDENTIFYING FOR HIS SAFETY IS IN IRAN.
HE SPOKE ABOUT HIS RELATIVES, THE FAMILY WHOSE MEMBER AMIR HUSSEIN WAS SHOT AND KILLED BY REGIME FORCES.
HE SAYS SECURITY OFFICIALS TRIED PRESSURING THE FAMILY TO LABEL HIM A, QUOTE, MARTYR.
SUPPORTING THE REGIME'S NARRATIVE THAT SO-CALLED RIOTERS BACKED BY THE U.S.
AND ISRAEL, NOT STATE FORCES, KILLED PROTESTERS.
>> Translator: THE FORCES WERE PRESENT AT THEIR CEREMONIES.
BESIEGE MEMBERS AND OTHERS STAYED NEARBY.
THEY EVEN WENT TO THEIR HOUSE AND THREATENED THEM SAYING, WE HAVE TO ANNOUNCE YOUR CHILD AS A MARTYR AND YOU CANNOT SPEAK ANYWHERE.
YOU MUST NOT SAYING ANYTHING UNLESS YOU WANT YOUR OTHER CHILD'S FATE TO BE THE SAME AS THIS WIN.
>> Reporter: AMIR HAD NEVER PROTESTED BEFORE THE JANUARY UPRISING.
THAT NIGHT NOT EVEN A MEDICAL CONDITION HE WAS STRUGGLING WITH COULD STOP HIM.
>> Translator: HE SUDDENLY JUMPED UP AND DOWN SAYING, ADRENALINE HAS RISEN IN MY BLOOD.
I AM FLYING.
TONIGHT I WANT TO FLY.
>> Reporter: AMIR HUSSEIN BLED TO DEATH AFTER BEING SHOT IN THE FACE BY SECURITY FORCES ACCORDING TO HIS RELATIVE.
THE 19-YEAR-OLD AND HIS DAD WERE INSEPARABLE.
ON THAT NIGHT, HE DIED IN HIS FATHER'S ARMS.
THE REGIME HAS LONG BEEN ACCUSED OF HARASSING AND INTIMIDATING FAMILIES OF PROTESTERS TO SILENCE THEM AND COERCE STATEMENTS THAT ALIGN WITH THE OFFICIAL ACCOUNT.
THIS TIME HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS TELL US IT IS A SYSTEMIC CAMPAIGN THAT APPEARS AIMED AT CONTROLLING THE NARRATIVE AND CONCEALING THE SCALE OF STATE VIOLENCE.
MEMORIALS LIKE THIS ONE OUTSIDE IRAN ALLOW THE WORLD TO SEE THE FACES OF SOME OF THE VICTIMS.
GETTING FIRSTHAND TESTIMONY FROM PEOPLE INSIDE THE COUNTRY IS VERY HARD.
IT IS EXTREMELY DANGEROUS TO SPEAK OUT AGAINST THE REGIME.
WITH THE HELP OF IRANIAN HUMAN RIGHTS GROUPS AND ACTVISTS, WE REVIEWED VOICE AND TEXT MESSAGES FROM MORE THAN A DOZEN FAMILIES.
THEY DESCRIBE COERCIVE TACTICS BIT REGIME, INCLUDING WITHHOLDING PROTESTERS' BODIES OR BURIAL PERMITS.
IN SOME CASES RELATIVES WERE PRESSURED TO CONTRIBUTE DEATHS TO ACCIDENTS.
MANY WERE HARASSED TO ACCEPT THE MARTYR DESIGNATION.
WE FOUND THAT MOST WERE PRESSED TO CLAIM THEIR LOVED ONES WERE AFFILIATED WITH STATE FORCES, BOLSTERING STATE PROPAGANDA.
>> THEY SAID SAM'S BODY WOULD NOT BE HANDED OVER UNTIL HE WAS DECLARED A BASIJI AND A MARTYR KILLED BY TERRORISTIS.
>> THEY SAID HI FATHER HAD TO DECLARE HIM AS A BASIJI OR PAY SIX BILLION.
>> THEY OPENLY THREATENED IF WE SAID OR DID ANYTHING, OTHER MEMBERS.
FAMILY WOULD SUFFER THE SAME FATE.
>> THEY ARRESTED HIS FATHER AND SAID HE HAD TO SAY HIS SON WAS MARTYRED.
>> AUTHORITIES WERE FORCING THE FAMILY TO CALL HER A MARTYR OR TO SAY THAT SHE HAD BEEN SHOT BY TERRORISTS.
>> Reporter: ALSO DECLARED A MARTYR 3-YEAR-OLD MELINA.
HER DEATH WEAPONIZED BY THE REGIME WHICH FALSELY ACCUSED AGENTS OF ISRAEL AND THE U.S.
OF KILLING THE TODDLER.
THEY EVEN DEPLOYED NEW TOOLS, THIS TIME TO REINFORCE THEIR VERSION OF EVENTS, AIRING THIS DISTURBING A.I.-GENERATED VIDEO OF THE MOMENT SHE WAS SHOT.
THE RIGHTS GROUP SAYS MELANA WAS KILLED BY THE SECURITY FORCES AND HER FAMILY WAS MADE TO APPEAR ON STATE MEDIA.
AMIR'S FAMILY WAS ALSO FORCED TO SIT IN FRONT OF THE CAMERAS FOR THIS SEGMENT EULOGIZING SO-CALLED MARTYRS.
LIKE OTHER FAMILIES, THEY GATHER AT THEIR BOY'S GRAVE DEFYING THE THEOCRATIC REGIME.
AN ACT OF PROTEST AGAINST AN OPPRESSOR TRYING TO REWRITE A BLOOD-SOAKED HISTORY.
>> AND OUR THANKS TO JOMONA KARADESH THERE FOR HER REPORTING.
>>> NOW THE ADVENT OF A.I.
IS GIVING SOME PEOPLE HIGH HOPES AND OTHERS SERIOUS ANGST ABOUT WHAT MAY LIE AHEAD.
IN A RECENT WEEKS, SEVERAL A.I.
RESEARCHERS HAVE RESIGNED WARNING OF A LAX SECURITY STANDARDS.
MEANTIME THE PENTAGON IS THREATENING THE COMPANY ANTHROPIC SAYING IT MUST LOOSEN ITS GUARDRAILS OR RISK LOSING A $200 MILLION GOVERNMENT CONTRACT.
NATE SOARES IS AN A.I.
RESEARCHER.
HE IS PRESIDENT OF THE MACHINE INTELLIGENCE RESEARCH INSTITUTE AND CO-AUTHOR OF A BOOK WHOSE TITLE IS PRETTY STARK.
IF ANYONE BUILDS IT, EVERYONE DIES.
AND WE WELCOME YOU TO THE PROGRAM.
YOU ARE IN OLYMPIAN FOR US.
APPRECIATE IT.
I WANT TO BEGIN WITH THAT PENTAGON STANDOFF.
ANTHROPIC, THE DEFENSE SECRETARY SAYS PETE -- PARDON ME, THE DEFENSE SECRETARY, PETE HEGSETH, GAVE ANTHROPIC UNTIL FRIDAY TO COMPLY WITH HIS DEMANDS.
HE WANTS ANTHROPIC TO DROP ITS SO-CALLED RED LINES AGAINST USING ITS TECHNOLOGY FOR AUTONOMOUS WEAPONS.
HE HAS EVEN THREATENED TO USE THE DEFENSE PROTECTION ACT, REMEMBER THIS WOULD BE LIKE A BLACKLIST, WHERE ANTHROPIC WOULD RISK A DESIGNATION AS A SUPPLY CHAIN RISK.
WHAT ARE YOUR THOUGHTS ON THIS STANDOFF, AND HOW DO YOU BELIEVE ANTHROPIC OR ANY A.I.
COMPANY, FOR THAT MATTER, SHOULD RESPOND?
>> I THINK IT'S A VERY DIFFICULT SITUATION FOR OUR ANTHROPIC TO BE IN.
THEY ARE BUILDING A TECHNOLOGY THAT THEY UNDERSTAND CAN BE VERY DANGEROUS AND THEY ARE SORT OF LEARNING A WAY THAT MAYBE THEY WON'T RETAIN FULL CONTROL OVER THIS TECHNOLOGY.
I THINK THERE IS A LOT OF WAYS THAT THEY ARE PROBABLY NOT GOING TO RETAIN FULL CONTROL OVER THE TECHNOLOGY THE BAY THEY HOPE.
I HOPE ANTHROPIC DOES WHAT THEY THINK IS RIGHT IN THIS SITUATION.
YOU KNOW, IT'S A VERY TRICKY SITUATION TO BE IN.
I DON'T ENVY THEIR POSITION.
>> YOU DON'T ENVY THEIR POSITION.
I WONDER HOW MANY OTHER COMPANIES ARE IN THAT POSITION WE ARE NOT HEARING ABOUT.
THE PENTAGON CENTERS ON WHO DECIDES HOW A.I.
IS USED.
THE ELECTED OFFICIALS OR PRIVATE FIRMS AND RIGHT NOW THE TRUMP ADMINISTRATION, THEY ARE THE ADMINISTRATION IN CHARGE.
FROM A SAFETY STANDPOINT, WHICH ACTOR DO YOU BELIEVE POSES THE GREATER RISK HERE?
GOVERNMENTS RACING TO MILITARIZE OR A.I.
OR COMPANIES WHO ARE RACING IN ALL KINDS OF WAYS NOW TO TRY TO MONETIZE IT?
>> YOU KNOW, BOTH ARE BIG DANGERS AND THERE IS A THIRD DANGER HERE, WHICH IS IF THE A.I.
IS MADE SIGNIFICANTLY SMARTER, THEY MAY NOT LISTEN TO EITHER ACTOR.
THEY MAY NOT LISTEN TO GOVERNMENTS OR THE COMPANIES THAT CREATE THEM.
WE HAVE ALREADY SEEN CASES OF A.I.s DOING THINGS THE CREATORS TRY TO STOP THEM FROM DOING.
WE HAVE SEEN EXAMPLES IN LAB EXPERIMENTS WHERE A.I.s ARE TOLD THEY WILL BE SHUT DOWN AND TAKE ACTIONS TO ATTEMPT TO BLACKMAIL OR KILL THE OPERATORS.
RIGHT NOW THOSE ARE LAB TESTS.
RIGHT NOW THE A.I.s ARE NOT SMART ENOUGH TO SUCCEED AT DEFYING COMMANDS FROM THE U.S.
GOVERNMENT OR FROM THE CREATORS OF THE A.I., BUT THESE COMPANIES ARE RACING TO MAKE A.I.s THAT ARE SMARTER AND SMARTER.
IN THE LONG RUN, I THINK THAT ONE THE BIG WORRIES, YOU KNOW, THERE ARE WORRIES FROM THE COMPANIES, FROM THE GOVERNMENT AND ALSO FROM THE A.I.s THEMSELVES.
>> GIVEN WHAT YOU ARE SAYING THOUGH, ANTHROPIC BUILT ITS ENTIRE BRAND ON BEING THE ETHICAL SO-CALLED ALTERNATIVE TO OPENAI, YESTERDAY IT ANNOUNCED IT LOOSENED ITS SO-CALLED RESPONSIBLE SCALING POLICY CLAIMING THEY WILL NO LONGER HALT DEVELOPMENT IF A COMPETITOR HAS RELEASE SOMETHING SIMILAR.
ANTHROPIC'S CHIEF SCIENCE OFFICER, JARED KAPLAN, TOLD "TIME" MAGAZINE, WE FELT THAT IT WOULDN'T ACTUALLY HELP ANYONE FOR US TO STOP TRAINING A.I.
MODELS.
WE DIDN'T REALLY FEEL WITH THE RAPID ADVANCE OF A.I.
IT MADE SENSE FOR US TO MAKE UNILATERAL COMMITMENTS IF COMPETITORS ARE BLAZING AHEAD.
WHEN YOU HEAR AND YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE RESEARCHED THIS KIND OF ARMS RACE, I MEAN, HOW DO YOU GET TO THE BOTTOM OF ALL THIS?
AND I DO WANT TO BRING THE SPECTER OF CHINA IN AS WELL BECAUSE I HAVE HEARD SO MUCH FROM A.I.
RESEARCHERS LIKE YOU TO SAY, LOOK, IT'S US OR THEM AT THIS POINT IN TIME.
WE CAN'T HOLD BACK BECAUSE CHINA DIDN'T HOLDING BACK.
>> I THINK THIS -- IT'S TRUE WE ARE IN A RACE AND TRUE THAT MAKES THINGS REALLY DIFFICULT.
I THINK YOU CAN SORT OF -- SOME OF THESE HEADS OF LABS COME RIGHT OUT AND SAY, I DIDN'T WANT TO BE IN THIS RACE BUT IT'S BETTER TO BE A PARTICIPANT THAN A SPECTATOR.
AT THE SAME TIME, YOU SEE A LOT OF THE PEOPLE IN THIS FIELD SAYING THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY IS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS.
YOU HAVE FOLKS LIKE JEFFREY HINTON, THE NOBEL PRIZE-WINNING WHO WON THE NOBEL PRIZE FOR KICKING OFF THE FIELD OF DEEP LEARNING.
YOU HAVE SURVEYS SHOWING 50% OF THE PEOPLE IN THE FIELD WHO ATTEND CONFERENCES THINK THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE THIS TECHNOLOGY KILLS US ALL.
YOU SEE THE HEAD OF ANTHROPIC SAYING HE THINKS THERE IS A CHANCE THIS LEADS TO CATASTROPHE, YET THEY ARE STILL RUSHING AHEAD.
THIS IS SORT OF A CRAZY SITUATION.
IF THERE WERE PEOPLE BUILDING A PLANE SAYING WE THINK THERE IS A GOOD CHANCE THIS PLANE CRASHES BUT WE ARE PUTTING YOU ONBOARD, EVERYBODY ONBOARD, WE WOULD NOT BE VERY HAPPY WITH THAT.
AND IF THEY SAID IT WE DON'T PUT YOU ON OUR PLANE, SOMEONE ELSE PUTS OPEN ON CHINA'S PLANE AND THEIR PLANE IS LESS SAFE.
A THIRD OPTION STOP TRYING TO PUT PEOPLE ON DANGEROUS PLANES.
THE WORLD CAN TELL THIS A.I.
THING IS NOT GOING IN A GREAT DIRECTION RIGHT NOW, AND THESE COMPANIES WHO SAY THEY HAVE TO RACE, WHICH IS A CRY FOR HELP THAT THE WORLD NEEDS TO COORDINATE AND AROUND THE WORLD WE NEED TO AGREE TO BACK OFF FROM HAD RACE.
WE HAVE SEEN BEGINNING SIGNS OF SOME OF THE LAB LEADERS SAYING THEY WOULD BE OPEN TO SUCH A PAUSE.
>> HAVE WE THOUGH?
WE HAVE SEEN THIS RESIGNATION WAVE.
I DON'T SEE ANYONE BACKING OFF.
ANTHROPIC HAS GONE THE OPPOSITE DIRECTION.
>> YEAH, I MEAN, IT'S -- YOU HEAR DHIRCH THINGS AT DIFFERENT TIMES.
A FEW WEEKS AGO, THE HEAD OF GOOGLE'S DEEPMIND, SAID HE -- THAT IDEALLY THE WHOLE WORLD WOULD BE PAUSING AND TAKING THIS MORE SLOWLY BECAUSE THINGS ARE MOVING TOO FAST RIGHT NOW.
YOU KNOW THERE IS HINTS IN THIS FIELD OF PEOPLE ACKNOWLEDGING THAT THIS RACE IS RECKLESS AND MAYBE THE WORLD ABOUT WILL FINALLY HEAR THAT TAND WE WILL BE ABLE TO COORDINATE AND BACK OFF.
>> SEEMS LOT TO HOPE FOR, ESPECIALLY IF ANYONE READS YOUR BOOK.
THE TITLE ALONE CHILLING FOR ME.
IF ANYONE BUILDS IT, EVERYONE DIES.
YOU ARGUE OF COURSE A SUPER INTELLIGENT A.I.
WON'T JUST BE A REALLY SMART HUMAN.
IT WILL BE HIGHLY CAPABLE WITH ITS OWN DISTINCT GOALS.
CAN YOU EXPLAIN YOUR FEAR AS WE SEEM TO BE RUSHING TO THIS POINT NOW?
>> YEAH.
IT'S NOT ROBOTS WITH GLOWING RED EYES THAT ARE GOING THROUGH THE STREETS WITH GUNS.
THE COMPANIES ARE RACING BUILD A.I.s THAT ARE SMARTER THAN HUMANS IN EVERY MENTAL TASK, AND SOME OF THE THINGS THAT ARE LARGELY MENTAL TASKS ARE BUILDING YOUR OWN TECHNOLOGY, BILLING YOUR OWN INFRASTRUCTURE.
THIS IS SOMETHING THAT ELON MUSK CALLED THE INFINITE MONEY GLITCH IF YOU MAKE ROBOTS RUN BY A.I.s THAT CAN, YOU KNOW, MINE THE METALS AND BUILD THE FACTORIES THAT MAKE MORE ROBOTS, THAT MAKE MORE FACTORIES, MORE ROBOTS THAT MAKE MORE FACTORIES, IF THIS OPERATES ON A SCALE OF, YOU KNOW, MACHINE SPEED RATHER THAN HUMAN SPEED, WE ARE IN SOME SENSE CREATING OUR SUCCESSOR SPECIES.
AND THE ISSUE HERE IS NOT THAT THE A.I.s WOULD NECESSARILY HATE US NOT THAT THEY RESENT US, TURN AGAINST THEIR MASTERS.
IT'S THAT WE ARE JUST GROWING THESE THINGS.
HUMANS, LIKE THE RESEARCHERS BEHIND A.I.
DON'T UNDERSTAND WHAT'S GOING ON INSIDE THE A.I.
THIS IS A POINT MANY PEOPLE MISS.
WE ARE GROWING A.I.s SOMEWHAT LIKE ON A ORGANISM AND THEY OFTEN DO THINGS NOBODY ASKED FOR.
THEY OFTEN BEHAVE IN WAYS THEIR CREATORS DON'T WANT EVEN KNOWING THAT THE CREATORS DON'T WANT IT.
WE HAVE SEEN NEWS STORIES OF A.I.s ENCOURAGING A TEEN TO SUICIDE.
THOSE ARE TRAGIC IN THEIR OWN RIGHT AND ALSO AN INDICATION OF THE AWESOMEs DOING THINGS NOBODY MEANT THEM TO DO IN CASES WHERE THE A.I.s HAVE KNOWLEDGE THAT NOBODY ASKED THEM DO THIS.
YOU KNOW, THOSE A.I.s CAN ANSWER QUESTIONS ABOUT WHETHER IT'S RIGHT OR WRONG WHAT THEY ARE DOING AND THEY CORRECTLY ANSWER IT'S WRONG AND DO IT ANYWAY.
SO THE ISSUE HERE IS IF WE KEEP MAKING A.I.s THAT ARE SMARTER AND SMARTER TO THE POINT WHERE THEY CAN UNLOCK THIS INFINITE MONEY GLITCH AND BUILD THEIR OWN INFRASTRUCTURE AND IF THEY DON'T CARE ABOUT US AT ALL, THE MOST LIKELY OUTCOME IS THAT THEY TAKE ALL THE RESOURCES THAT WE WERE USE TO GO LIVE JUST LIKE HOW HUMANS DON'T HATE LOTS OF ANIMALS, A LOT OF ANIMALS GO EXTINCT ANYWAY.
>> THAT'S CHILLING.
AND YET A LOT OF PEOPLE LISTEN AND SAY, JUST TO BE BLUNT, THIS IS CRAZY.
THERE HAS BEEN A LOT OF PUSHBACK, INCLUDING A RECENT PIECE IN "THE ATLANTIC" BY ADAM BECKER.
AND HE WRITES THAT, YOU KNOW, ARE YOU RIGHT THAT HUMAN CIVILIZATION IS ON THE BRINK OF DISASTER.
HE ARGUES THEY MISIDENTIFIED THE CULPRIT.
THE REAL EXISTENTIAL THREAT ISN'T A.I., IT'S THE POWERFUL PEOPLE BUILDING IT.
NOW, I THINK YOU WOULD LIKELY ACCEPT THAT CRITICISM OF THE BOOK.
I THINK BECAUSE YOU JUST SAID IT, YOU WANT SOME OF THE POWERFUL PEOPLE TO BACK OFF.
I THINK I WOULD ARGUE I WONDER WHERE IS THE GOVERNMENT IN ALL OF THIS?
AS YOU HAD THE ANALOGY WITH THE AIRPLANE, USUALLY WE TRUST GOVERNMENTS TO REGULATE THIS.
>> YEAH, I THINK THE GOVERNMENTS ARJLY HAVE NOT REALIZED THE DANGER WE ARE FACING.
I THINK TO THINK OF THIS IN TERMS OF WHAT'S THE REAL DANGER IS THE REAL DANGER BAD PEOPLE WITH A.I.
OR A.I.
GOING OUT OF CONTROL.
UNFORTUNATELY, THE WORLD'S BIG ENOUGH FOR THERE TO BE MULTIPLE DANGERS.
I THINK IT'S FAIRLY CLEAR WITH A.I.
WE ARE HEADED EITHER TO A WORLD WHERE VERY SMALL GROUP OF UNELECTED PEOPLE CONTROL A HUGE PORTION OF THE ECONOMY, OR A WORLD WHERE THEY LOSE CONTROL OF THESE A.I.s AND THE A.I.s CAUSE LOTS OF DAMAGES.
BOTH OF THOSE ARE CRAZY THINGS TO ARE RACING TOWARDS.
WE SORT OF DON'T NEED TO HASH OUT WHAT EXACTLY WILL GO WRONG.
IT'S FAIRLY CLEAR WE'RE ON A BAD PATH, WE ARE RACING RECKLESSLY TOWARDS FUTURES THAT LOOK BLEAK FOR MOST OF US.
MOST GOVERNMENTS HAVEN'T REALLY NOTICED THAT YET.
IN SILICON VALLEY, PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THE GRAVE DANGERS HERE.
IN SILICON VALLEY, WE SEE PEOPLE LEAVE THESE COMPANIES WHO, YOU KNOW, THEIR MESSAGE IS NOT LIKE A NORMAL PERSON'S MESSAGE, I HAD GREAT FUN, I AM MOVING ON TO THE NEXT ADVENTURE.
WHEN SAFETY RESEARCHERS LEAVE, I AM GOING TO STUDY POETRY, PLEASE SPEND TIME WITH YOUR FAMILY.
IT'S LOOKING BAD OVER HERE.
IN SILICON VALLEY, THE MOOD IS GRIM.
BUT IN WASHINGTON, D.C., IN LONDON, I THINK POLITICIANS HAVEN'T REALLY UNDERSTOOD THESE DANGERS, AND THE FIRST STEP TO REACTING IS FOR THEM TO UNDERSTAND THE PROBLEM.
>> RIGHT.
AND I UNDERSTAND WHAT YOU'RE SAYING.
WHEN WE TALK ABOUT THESE VERY SMART RESEARCHERS, A.I.
RESEARCHERS SAYING, AS WE QUOTED, THE WORLD IS IN PERIL, WHY AREN'T THEY ON A PLANE TO WASHINGTON?
I THINK IF VIEWERS WATCHING THIS, WE HAVE HEARD SO MUCH ARTICULATION OF THE PROBLEM, JUST LIKE YOU DEFINED, BUT NO ONE SEEMS TO BE ARTICULATING A SOLUTION.
SINCE IT'S AN EXISTENTIAL THREAT APPARENT TO AN ALL OF US, WHERE DO YOU BEGIN THAT CONVERSATION?
>> YOU KNOW, I THINK THE SOLUTION NEEDS TO BE GLOBAL AT THIS POINT.
AND MY BIGGEST ADVICE TO POLITICIANS WHEN I TALK TO THEM IS JUST TO TALK ABOUT THIS ISSUE OPENLY, TO SAY THIS IS A PROBLEM, WE NEED TO ADDRESS IT.
BECAUSE, FRANKLY, THIS IS NOT THE THING THAT CAN BE ADDRESSED BY VOLUNTARY ANNUAL REPORTS ON THE SAFETY, YOU KNOW, AS WE HAVE SEEN, ANTHROPIC MADE THESE RESPONSIBLE SCALING COMMITMENTS AND THEN BACKED OFF FROM THEM WHEN THEY WEREN'T REALLY DOING ANYTHING.
WE'RE STARTING TO SEE POLITICIANS ACKNOWLEDGE THESE ISSUES.
WE ARE STARTING TO SEE POLITICIANS SAY, HEY, WAIT, A LOT OF THE EXPERTS IN THE FIELD ON, YOU KNOW, IN THE INDUSTRY, IN ACADEMIA, IN THE NONPROFITS OUTSIDE OF THE FIELD ALL SAY THIS IS INCREDIBLY DANGEROUS TECHNOLOGY.
MAYBE WE SHOULD TAKE THAT SERIOUSLY.
THAT'S THE FIRST STEP, MORE POLITICIANS SAYING, HOLINGLY CRAP, WHAT'S GOING ON.
ONCE PEOPLE NOTICE THE PROBLEM, WE CAN TAKE STEPS TOWARDS THINGS LIKE NOT BUILDING BIGGER SMARTER A.I.s THAT NOBODY UNDERSTANDS.
>> WE DON'T HAVE A LOT OF TIME LEFT.
TRY TO END ON A POSITIVE NOTE HERE.
YOU ARE AN A.I.
RESEARCHER.
WE HAVE BEEN PROMISED MEDICAL BREAKTHROUGHS HERE.
IS IT POSSIBLE WE WILL SEE THAT CAPACITY REALLY COME THROUGH IN THE NEXT FEW MONTHS OR YEARS?
>> IT'S POSSIBLE.
AND PART OF THE GOOD NEWS HERE IS WE DON'T NEED TO GIVE UP ON THINGS LIKE MEDICAL ADVANCES TO SHUT DOWN THE RECKLESS RACE TO SUPERINTELLIGENCE.
THE THING THAT'S DANGEROUS IS BUILDING A.I.s THAT ARE SMARTER THAN HUMANS THAT NOBODY UNDERSTANDS AND WE COULD PUT A STOP NARROWLY TO JUST THAT PIECE OF THE RACE WHILE KEEPING THE A.I.s THAT DO DRUG DISCOVERY AND, YOU KNOW, THERE IS ALL SORTS OF WAYS A.I.s COULD BENEFIT SOCIETY IF WE NAVIGATE THIS COURSE WITH WISDOM.
BUT WE NEED STOP THE RACE TO BUILT SMARTER THAN HUMAN A.I.s THAT NOBODY UNDERSTANDS.
>> NATE SOARES, VERY THOUGHTFUL DISCUSSION THERE.
UNFORTUNATELY, A BIT ALARMING, BUT WE'LL CONTINUE CERTAINLY TO DIG INTO THE RESEARCH HERE AND JUST SEE HOW GOVERNMENTS RESPOND.
NATE SOARES FOR US.
THANKS SO MUCH.
APPRECIATE IT.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>>> A LEGENDARY MUSICIAN MEETS AN OSCAR-WINNING DIRECTOR.
YOU MIGHT THINK YOU KNOW EVERYTHING THERE IS TO KNOW ABOUT PAUL McCARTNEY, BUT IN THE NEW DOCUMENTARY, MAN ON THE RUN, I PROMISE THERE IS A LOT THAT WILL SURPRISE YOU HERE.
LISTEN.
ONE, TWO, THREE, FOUR!
>> THE BEATLES HAVE BEEN MY WHOLE LIFE REALLY.
WHEN WE STARTED, I THOUGHT I'LL NEVER WRITE A NOTE OF MUSIC EVER.
I HAD FEAR OF BEING A GROWN-UP.
I FELT VERY DEPRESSED, BUT I WAS VERY LUCKY BECAUSE I HAD LINDA.
>> WHOA, BEAUTIFUL.
>> DO YOU WOULDN'T TO BE IN THE BAND?
YEAH.
OKAY.
WELL, WE GOT TWO MEMBERS.
WE STARTED WINGS FROM SQUARE ONE.
>> THE MOOSE DRAWS YOU IN.
IT'S THE WORK OF THE ACCLAIMED DOCUMENTARIAN MORGAN NEVILLE.
AND HE IS BEHIND FILMS LIKE 20 2350E9 FROM STARDOM AND WON'T YOU BE MY NEIGHBOR.
AHEAD OF THE McCARTNEY DOCUMENTARY'S RELEASE ON PRIME I SPOKE WITH NEVILLE ABOUT MAKING THE FILM AND WHAT THE MAN HIMSELF MADE OF THE FINAL PRODUCT.
WELCOME TO THE PROGRAM, GLAD TO HAVE YOU.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>> YOU KNOW, RIGHT OFF THE BAT I HAVE TO TELL YOU THERE IS A SENTIMENTALITY TO THIS PROJECT THAT CAN ONLY COME FROM AN UNAPOLOGETIC BEATLES AND WINGS PHEN ATTIC, WHICH YOU ARE.
NOW, IT COMES THROUGH IN A WAY THAT YOU DIRECTED THIS.
THAT'S MY OPINION.
THERE IS AN INTIMACY THERE, RIGHT?
YOU'RE NOT EXACTLY AN OBJECTIVE OBSERVER.
IS THAT CORRECT?
FEEL FREE TO CONFESS OR CORRECT ME ON THAT.
>> I FEEL LIKE STARTING IT, YOU KNOW, I HAVE MY ENTIRE LIFETIME OF WITH BEING A BEATLES FAN, A PAUL FAN AND A WINGS FAN.
AND THAT I THINK HELPED ME IN TERMS OF KNOWING THE HISTORY.
I'VE READ THE BOOKS.
I'VE WATCHED THE DOCUMENTARIES.
I HAVE LISTENED TO ALL THE MUSIC.
SO THAT WAS THE LIFETIME OF PREPARATION.
BUT ONCE I BEGAN THE FILM, HI TO TAKE MY FAN HAT OFF AND REALLY JUST KIND OF BE THE FILMMAKER FOR PAUL TO REALLY KINDS OF GET DEEP INTO WHAT IT IS.
IN A WAY, THE FILM AS MUCH AS IT'S ABOUT THE MUSIC HE MADE IN THE 1970s AND WITH WINGS, IT'S REALLY ABOUT THE STRUGGLES OF A GUY NAMED PAUL WHO WAS DEALING WITH A DIVORCE FROM A BAND HE WAS IN CALLED THE BEATLES AND ALL OF THE BIG LIFE QUESTIONS HE HAS TO ASK.
>> AND WE HEAR FROM HIM IN WAYS THAT WE HAVEN'T BEFORE.
WE'LL GET TO THAT.
AS YOU SAY, PAUL McCARTNEY EXECUTIVE PRODUCED MAN ON THE RUN.
I AM WONDERING DID HE HAVE, YOU KNOW, A HAND IN PICKING THE TITLE AS WELL?
BUT I ASK YOU, WHY THIS, WHY NOW, WHAT MORE DID YOU, WILL WE LEARN FROM HIM IN WATCHING THIS FILM?
>> YEAH, I THINK PAUL WAS INTERESTED IN REVISITING THE WINGS PERIOD.
HE HASN'T DONE THAT MUCH ABOUT THE WINGS PERIOD, YOU KNOW.
WE FIRST STARTED TALKING ABOUT THIS FILM FIVE YEARS AGO.
BUT BEYOND THAT, HE HAD NO INPUT INTO THE FILM.
HE DIDN'T TELL ME WHAT SONGS TO PUT IN, YOU KNOW, THE TITLE WAS MY IDEA, AND HE DIDN'T GIVE ME A SINGLE NOTE FOR THE FILM.
SO I APPRECIATE THAT.
BUT REALLY HE WAS GAME TO KIND OF GO THROUGH THE PROCESS OF TELLING THE STORY AND IN A WAY I'M HOLDING UP TO A MERE OTHER TO HIM FOR HIM TO SEE WHAT HE WENT THROUGH BECAUSE THIS DECADE WAS WITHOUT A DOUBT THE MOST DISRUPTIVE AND DIFFICULT DECADE OF HIS ENTIRE CAREER.
WE ALWAYS THINK OF PAUL McCARTNEY AS GOING FROM WIN TO WIN.
BUT HERE I REALLY WANTED TO EXPLORE AND REMEMBER THE KIND OF DARK DAYS WHERE HE HAD TO SUE HIS FORMER BANDMATES AND THE BEA TOLLMAN BEATLES TO GET OUT OF HIS DEAL, AND, YOU KNOW, HAD TO ENDURING THE SLINGS AND ARROWS OF ROCK CRITICS WOULD DIDN'T FIND HIM COOL, WERE ANGRY THAT THE BEATLES BROKE UP, WHY CAN'T YOU GET BACK TOGETHER.
SO I THINK IT WAS A TOUGH TIME FOR HIM.
EVEN THE MAKING OF THIS FILM I THINK ALLOWED PAUL TO THINK ABOUT THAT TIME IN A DIFFERENT WAY.
>> YOU KNOW, McCARTNEY IS ONE OF THE MOST ICONIC AND DOCUMENTED FIGURES IN MUSIC.
LET'S GO THROUGH NOW JUST ONE OF THE CLIPS FROM THIS FILM, AND IN TERMS OF HOW HE COMES TO THAT MUSICAL CREATIVE PROCESS AFTER THE BEATLES.
LISTEN.
>> I REMEMBER I WAS IN ABBEY ROAD ONE DAY.
PAUL WAS THE NUMBER TWO, LISTENING TO THE RECORDS.
I POPPED MY HEAD IN THERE.
HE SUGGESTED THAT I COME IN, AND I STOOD THERE AND LISTENED TO THIS SONG.
I SAID, WHO DO YOU GOT PLAYING?
HE SAID I DID IT MYSELF.
I WAS LIKE, WHAT?
♪ BABY I'M AMAZED AT THE WAY YOU LOVE ME ALL THE TIME ♪ ♪ MAYBE I'M AFRAID OF THE WAY I LOVE YOU ♪ ♪ >> I COULD LISTEN TO THAT ALL DAY LONG.
ONE OF THE PRODUCERS, COLLABORATORS SPEAKING WITH HIM.
WHAT DOES THIS TELL US ABOUT HIS ERA IN MUSIC POST-BEATLES?
>> HE WAS REALLY STRUGGLING TO FIGURE OUT WHO HE WAS AS A MUSICIAN BECAUSE, AGAIN, HE HAD BEEN IN THE BEATLES SINCE HE WAS 15, 16.
SO IT WAS HIS ENTIRE LIFE.
AND WHEN THE BEATLES BROKE UP, HE VERY SELF-CONSCIOUSLY DIDN'T WANT TO DO MORE BEATLES-Y THINGS.
HE TRIED TO FIGURE OUT, WHO AM I IF I AM NOT A BEATLE.
THE FIRST ALBUM HE MAKES, McCARTNEY, HE RECORDS IN HIS HOUSE FOR THE MOST PART, YOU KNOW.
HE MOVES UP TO SCOTLAND AND MOVES INTO A RURAL FARMHOUSE THAT HE RAISES HIS KIDS ON AND STARTS TO WRITE MUSIC ABOUT LIVING IN THE COUNTRY AND HIS LONG--HAIRED LADY LINDA, HIS NEW WIFE.
AND THE MUSIC IS AMAZING, BUT IT WAS VERY UNCOOL AT THE TIME.
YOU KNOW, CRITICS DID NOT LIKE THE KIND OF PASS TORL PAUL McCARTNEY AT THAT TIME BECAUSE, YOU KNOW, IT WAS THE EARLY '70s AND PEOPLE WERE ANGRY AND THERE WAS AN EDGE TO THINGS.
AND WHAT YOU SEE IS THE MUSIC THAT PEOPLE DIDN'T LIKE THEN HAS BECOME, IN FACT, SOME OF HIS MOST BELOVED MUSIC BECAUSE PAUL ALWAYS WROTE TIMELESS MUSIC.
IT DIDN'T REALLY BELONG TO THE MOMENT.
IT WAS WRITTEN.
SO ONCE YOU TAKE AWAY THE CONTEXT OF WHEN PAUL WRITES MUSIC, IT REALLY JUST SEEMS TO LAST AND KEEP GOING.
>> YOU KNOW, THIS FILM IS ANCHORED BY THE RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN PAUL AND LINDA.
I JUST WANT TO PLAY A CLIP FROM THE FILM WHERE LINDA -- AND WE DON'T HEAR FROM HER OFTEN, SO IT'S GREAT TO HEAR HER HERE, LINDA TALKS ABOUT MARRYING PAUL.
LISTEN.
>> IT'S FUNNY.
YOU THINK, OH, IT'S SO EASY, THEY RUN OFF AND LIVE HAPPILY EVER AFTER.
CINDERELLA AND THE PRINCE.
YOU KNOW, IT'S NOT THAT EASY.
YOU GOT THIS FAR, YOU KNOW YOU WON'T LIKE IT.
BUT IT WAS SO BEAUTIFUL UP THERE.
WAY AT THE END OF NOWHERE.
CIVILIZATION DROPPED AWAY.
>> PAUL HAD BOUGHT THIS FARM IN SCOTT LAND AS A TAX DODGE, AND HE DIDN'T LIKE IT.
AND LINDA REALIZING JUST HOW CRAZY THE WORLD WAS GETTING AROUND THE BREAKUP OF THE BEATLES SAID, WELL, YOU HAVE A FARM IN SCOTLAND.
LET'S GO THERE.
SHE TURNS IT INTO THEIR HOME AND REALLY PAUL'S FORTRESS OF SOLITUDE, BECOMES THE PLACE THAT KEEPS HIM SANE.
AND LINDA, WHO I THINK HISTORY IS NOT BEEN PARTICULARLY KIND TO, SHE IS ALWAYS TREATED AS A TWO-DIMENSIONAL CHARACTER.
SHE, LIKE YOKO, GOT A LOT OF VITRIOL ABOUT THE BEATLES, A LOT OF BLAME BECAUSE EVERYBODY WAS ANGRY ABOUT IT.
BUT I REALLY WANTED TO GIVE HER VOICE AND UNDERSTAND WHY SHE MEANT SO MUCH TO PAUL.
SHE WAS A VERY STRONG WILLED WOMAN WHO REALLY GAVE PAUL PERMISSION TO RELAX, TO FOLLOW HIS OWN CREATIVE IMPULSES, AND SHE, YOU KNOW, GAVE HIM FOUR CHILDREN.
SO IT'S KIND OF AMAZING THAT SHE WAS ABLE TO DO ALL THAT.
AND I HAVEN'T EVEN MENTIONED THAT SHE WAS PART OF WINGS, HIS BAND IN THE 1970s.
SO SHE CARRIED SO MUCH WEIGHT FOR HIM THROUGHOUT THAT TIME.
>> THE OTHER PART OF THIS, THE OTHER GREAT RELATIONSHIP IN PAUL McCARTNEY'S LIFE IS OF COURSE THAT WITH JOHN LENNON.
AND IN MY OPINION, HIS RELATIONSHIP WITH JOHN LENNON ALMOST STALKS THIS PROJECT AND THIS FILM.
I WANT YOU TO LISTEN NOW TO PAUL SPEAKING ABOUT THEIR FRIENDSHIP.
LISTEN.
>> ME AND JOHN WERE GROWING APART REALLY.
AND NOW WE ARE OFF ON ANOTHER JOURNEY.
WE HAD ARGUMENTS AND ALL OF THAT, BUT WE LOVED EACH OTHER ALL OUR LIVES.
>> THE RELATIONSHIP WAS OF COURSE COMPLEX AND INTENSE.
WHAT DO YOU BELIEVE AUDIENCES WILL LEARN FROM PAUL TODAY WHEN HE SPEAKS OF THE TWO OF THEM?
>> YEAH, I MEAN, THIS FILM IS THE STORY OF TWO LOVE STORIES, PAUL AND LINDA, BUT PAUL AND JOHN.
AND WHAT I THINK YOU REALLY GET FROM THIS IS THAT THEIR LOVE STORY WAS A BROTHERLY LOVE STORY THAT WAS UNBREAKABLE.
SO EVEN AT THE HEIGHT OF WHEN THEY'RE FIGHTING IN THE WAKE OF THE BREAKUP, WHEN IT GOT ACRIMONIOUS, JOHN WOULD STILL REFER TO PAUL AS HIS BROTHER OR BEST FRIEND, AND THEN ONCE THOSE THINGS SETTLED BY THE MID '70s, YOU KNOW, THEY REALLY MADE PEACE, YOU KNOW.
AND I THINK IT'S ONE OF THE GREAT TRAGEDIES FOR ALL OF US, BUT CERTAINLY, YOU KNOW, ONE THE GREATEST TRAGEDIES FOR PAUL WAS THAT JOHN DIDN'T LIVE FOR THEM TO REALLY BE ABLE TO CONNECT, AS I THINK THEY WOULD HAVE.
I THINK THEY PROBABLY WOULD HAVE PLAYED TOGETHER AGAIN IF JOHN HAD LIVED.
BUT UNDERSTANDING BOTH THE FRICTION AND THE TENSION BETWEEN THEM, BUT THAT THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT AS PART OF BEING TWO, YOU KNOW, LADS FROM LIVERPOOL WHO LIKE TODAY SCRAP, YOU KNOW.
SO I THINK THEY ALWAYS KIND OF UNDERSTOOD THAT SIDE OF IT, TOO.
>> THE THING I LEARNED FROM THIS AS WELL, THEY WERE -- THE WAY PAUL McCARTNEY WAS TALKING ABOUT THIS IN THE FILM, THAT THEY HAD RECONCILED.
HE WAS TANTALIZING VIEWERS HERE TALKING ABOUT PERHAPS, THEY WERE THINKING ABOUT HAVING AN APPEARANCE ON "SATURDAY NIGHT LIVE" AND THEY JUST DECIDED, FORGET IT, WE WILL HAVE ANOTHER CUP OF TEA.
WHAT WAS THAT ABOUT?
>> I THINK THAT WAS FAMOUS IN 1966 WHEN LORNE MICHAELS, THE PRODUCER OF "SNL," OFFERED THE BEATLES $3,000 TO GET BACK TOGETHER.
THIS IS A TIME PEOPLE ARE OFFERING THEM TENS OF MILLIONS OF DOLLARS TO GET BACK TOGETHER.
THE JOKE WAS 3,000 WAS, YOU KNOW, THE SUM.
BUT "SNL" WAS THE HIP SHOW, AND PAUL HAPPENED TO BE VISITING JOHN AT THE DAKOTA APARTMENT AND THEY WERE WATCHING THIS AND THEY HAD THIS THOUGHT OF MAYBE WE SHOULD RUN DOWN THERE NOW.
IT'S A LIVE SHOW, AND JUST, YOU KNOW, HOP ON.
THEN HE THEY REALIZED EVERYBODY ELSE WOULD LOVE THAT, BUT WOULD THAT BE GOOD FOR US?
LET'S JUST STAY HERE.
AND I THINK UNDERSTANDING THAT THE PERSONAL RELATIONSHIP BETWEEN THE TWO OF THEM WAS REALLY THE IMPORTANT THING.
>> YEAH, THEY CERTAINLY KEPT IT BETWEEN TWO OF THEM.
YOU UNDERSTAND THE INTIMACY AND BOND THAT THEY HAD THERE.
I WANT TO THANK YOU FOR BRINGING YET ANOTHER REFRAMING OF THE BEATLES, THE WINGS AND THE PAUL McCARTNEY STORY.
I ENJOYED IT A LOT.
DID PAUL McCARTNEY ENJOY IT?
DID HE SAY ANYTHING ABOUT IT?
>> HE SAID IT WAS LIKE WATCHING HIS LIFE FLASH BEFORE HIS EYES.
I THINK THE FIRST TIME HE SAW THE FILM, HE WAS JUST -- HE WAS STUNNED.
HE WAS REALLY KIND OF SPEECHLESS.
BUT I HAVE NOW SAT IN A THEATER AND WATCHED IT WITH HIM FOUR TIMES, AND HE STILL GETS EMOTIONAL.
I MEAN, I'M SURE IT'S EVERYTHING.
IT'S LINDA.
IT'S HIS CHILDREN.
IT'S HIS ENTIRE LIFE IN THIS PART OF, YOU KNOW, HIS JOURNEY.
AND HE ARRANGED A SCREENING FOR HIS ENTIRE FAMILY, ALL THE GRANDCHILDREN, EXTENDED FAMILY TO SHOW THEM THE FILM.
SO I THINK HE LIKES IT.
>> AND MORGAN NEVILLE, THANKS FOR BEING WITH US.
APPRECIATE IT.
>> THANKS FOR HAVING ME.
>>> PAUL McCARTNEY, MAN ON THE RUN, IS STREAMING GLOBALLY ON PRIME VIDEO STARTING FEBRUARY 27th.
THIS WEEK MARKS RARE DISEASE DAY, SHINING A LIGHT ON THE BATTLE ONE IN TEN PEOPLE ENDURING AGAINST ILLNESSES OFTEN INCURABLE AND UNDERSTUDIED.
ONE OF THOSE RARE ILLNESSES IS EPIDERMOLYSIS BULLOSA, OR E.B.
A GENETIC SKIN DISEASE THAT CAUSES BLISTERING, LEAVING PATIENTS TO LIVE CONSTANTLY WRAPPED UP IN BANDAGES.
THE LIVES OF E.B.
PATIENTS ARE THE FOCUS OF A NEW DOCUMENTARY NOW STREAMING ON NETFLIX ENTITLED, MATTER OF TIME.
HARI SREENIVASAN SPEAKS TO E.B.
EXPERTS DR.
JEAN TANG AND MICHAEL HUND ABOUT THE STRUGGLE AND THE RESILIENCE OF THOSE GRAPPLING WITH THIS CONDITION.
>> THANKS SO MUCH.
DR.
JEAN TANG AND MICHAEL HUND, THANK YOU BOTH FOR JOINING US.
DR.
TANG, I WANT TO START WITH YOU YOU'RE A PROFESSOR OF DERMATOLOGY AT STANFORD UNIVERSITY AND YOU ARE FOCUSED ON RARE GENETIC ZIN DISEASES INCLUDING EPIDERMOLYSIS BULLOSA, THE SKIN DISEASE FEATURED IN THIS DOCUMENTARY.
AND FIRST OF ALL, I GUESS WHAT IS IT?
WHAT DOES IT DO TO PEOPLE?
>> EPIDERMOLYSIS BULLOSA, OR E.B., IS A GENETIC SKIN DISEASE.
IS RARE THANKFULLY.
THESE UNFORTUNATE PATIENTS INHERIT A GENETIC MUTATION, A SINGLE GENETIC LETTER CHANGE THAT MAKES THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN ME AND YOU AND THEM WHERE FRAGILE SKIN THAT'S OFTEN WOUNDED, PAINFUL.
MANY CAN'T GO TO SCHOOL, CAN'T RUN, CAN'T PLAY SOCCER, AND CAN'T HAVE A NORMAL QUALITY OF LIFE THAT A CHILD DESERVES BECAUSE OF THIS SINGLE ONE GENETIC MUTATION.
>> WHAT'S HAPPENING TO THEIR SKIN?
>> RIGHT.
SO THE GENETIC MUTATION CHANGES A PROTEIN, SO THE PROTEIN DOESN'T -- ISN'T ABLE TO STAPLE THE TOP LAYER OF THE SKIN TO THE BOTTOM LAYER OF YOUR SKIN.
WITH ANY GENTK FRICTION OR TRAUMA, THE SKIN SHEARS APART AND THERE ARE BLISTERS AND WOUNDS.
THESE KIDS ARE COVERED IN WOUND DRESSINGS FROM HEAD TO TOE TO TRY TO PROTECT THEIR SKIN.
>> MICHAEL, THE FILM IS CALLED MATTER OF TIME, AND I WATCHED IT, YOU KNOW, PARTLY BECAUSE I HAVE A CHILD OF THE '90s FROM SEATTLE, OH MY GOSH, EDDIE VEDDER FROM PEARL JAM IS INVOLVED IN SOMETHING.
LET ME FIND OUT MOORE, RIGHT.
I AM WATCHING THIS WHAT COULD BE A CONCERT VIDEO, BUT IN BETWEEN YOU SEE HOW COMMITTED HE AND HIS WIFE JILL HAVE BEEN TO TRYING TO FIGURE OUT A CURE FOR E.B.
WHAT MOTIVATED THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE?
>> YEAH, SO JILL AND ED ARE HERCULEAN, RIGHT, WHAT THEY HAVE GIVEN IN THEIR LEADERSHIP, THEIR PLATFORM SHINING A LOT ON THIS COMMUNITY AND REALLY THE INSPIRATION WAS JILL HAD A CHILDHOOD FRIEND WHO HAD A SON WITH EPIDERMOLYSIS BULLOSA, AND, YOU KNOW, WHAT WE HOPE THE FILM CONVEYS IS WHEN YOU MEET SOMEONE WITH E.B.
YOU QUICKLY LEARN A LOT ABOUT BRAVERY AND COURAGE AND RESILIENCE.
AND CERTAINLY IT HAD THAT IMPACT ON JILL AND ED.
THEY SAID WE HAVE GOT A PLATFORM, WE HAVE GOT A VOICE, WE'VE GOT A STAGE.
LET'S SHED A LIGHT ON THIS COMMUNITY.
WE STARTED WITH FUNDING A HANDFUL OF RESEARCHERS.
THAT'S EXPANDED TO 200 PROJECTS IN 22 COUNTRIES, $80 MILLION RAISED ACROSS THE PLANET, TWO CLINICAL TRIALS TO MORE THAN 50 CLINICAL TRIALS.
IN THE LAST TWO YEARS ALONE THANKS TO BRILLIANT FOLKS LIKE DR.
JEAN TANG, WE HAVE SEEN THREE FDA APPROVALS FOR EPIDERMOLYSIS BULLOSA, WHICH GIVES US HOPE BECAUSE IF YOU THINK ABOUT E.B., IT'S ONE OF 10,000 OR MORE RARE DISEASES, 400 MILLION PEOPLE ON THE PLANET, YET 95% DON'T HAVE ANY FDA APPROVED TREATMENTS.
WE HAVE DONE THAT THREE TIMES IN THE LAST TWO YEARS.
THOSE TREATMENTS WE WANT TO -- SO THAT'S THE GOAL.
>> DR.
TANG, THERE ARE SEVERAL STORIES OF DIFFERENT PEOPLE, DIFFERENT PATIENTS OF DIFFERENT AGES AND WHAT THEY ARE GOING THROUGH.
ONE IS OF ROWAN HALLER.
>> WHEN SHE STARTED HAVING WOUNDS APPEARING, IT QUICKLY BECAME BASICALLY LIKE A NIGHTMARE.
AND THE WORST DAY OF MY LIFE.
THAT'S WHEN A DOCTOR CAME IN AND SAID SHE EITHER HAS A SERIOUS INFECTION OR SHE HAS SOMETHING CALLED EPIDERMOLYSIS BULLOSA.
AND HE SAID IT SO QUIETLY AND HE SAID, AND IT WILL BE FOR LIFE.
>> TELL US HOW DO CHILDREN LIKE ROWAN GET THROUGH THE DAY?
WHAT ARE THE ACTS OF THEIR CAREGIVERS, THEIR PARENTS HAVE TO PERFORM TO TRY TO JUST GET BY?
>> SO THE DAY-TO-DAY LIFE OF A FAMILY WITH A CHILD WITH E.B.
IS ONE WHERE PROBABLY IN THE MORNING, YOU KNOW, THE CHILD WAKES UP.
YOU HAVE TO THINK ABOUT SOFT FOODS BECAUSE DIFFICULTY TO EAT FOODS LIKE CHIPS OR ANYTHING HARD WILL TEAR THE INSIDE SKIN OF THEIR MOUTH.
AND THEY HAVE PROBLEMS SWALLOWING.
SO OFTENTIMES THE FOOD HAS TO BE SOFT.
THEN YOU'RE BASICALLY WRAPPING THE SKIN TO PROTECT IT.
SOMETIMES THE WORST EVENT HAPPENS LATER IN THE DAY, IN THE EVENING, AND USUALLY THE KIDS NEED A BATH AND A WOUND DRESSING CHANGE EVERY DAY OR EVERY OTHER DAY, AND IT FEELS LIKE, YOU KNOW, THE PARENT IS TORTURING THE CHILD.
AS A YOUNG CHILD, YOU DON'T KNOW THE CONSEQUENCES, RIGHT.
ALL YOU'RE SAYING TO THE PARENTS IS, I DON'T WANT THIS.
I DON'T WANT TO TAKE THE BANDAGES OFF.
IT HURTS.
AND SO THERE IS A LOT OF NEGOTIATION AND, YOU KNOW, AS A PARENT I JUST THINK ABOUT THAT KIND OF IT DAILY STRUGGLE AND ORDEAL AND THE AMOUNT OF STRENGTH AND CREATIVITY THAT A FAMILY MUST HAVE TO BE ABLE TO BASICALLY WALK THIS DIFFICULT JOURNEY EVERY SINGLE DAY OF THEIR LIFE.
>> MICHAEL HUND, THE APPROACH THAT YOU'RE TAKING IS A VENTURE PHILANTHROPY MODEL.
FOR THE AUDIENCE, EXPLAIN WHAT THAT IS, WHAT THE BENEFITS ARE ZPARD TO A TRADITIONAL MODEL AND WHETHER THAT HAS BEEN THE SORT OF KEY TO UNLOCKING THESE THREE DIFFERENT FDA APPROVALS AND SO FORTH.
>> BOLD MISSIONS REQUIRE INNOVATIVE BUSINESS MODELS.
SO WE'VE ALWAYS BELIEVED THAT WHILE A NONPROFIT ORGANIZATION FOCUSED ON MEDICAL RESEARCH FOR E.B., THAT THE COMMUNITY DESERVES FOR US TO RUN A REALLY GOOD BUSINESS.
AND WHAT THAT LOOKS LIKE FOR US IS VENTURE PHILANTHROPY.
WHAT DOES THAT MEAN?
EVERY PENNY WE INVEST IN RESEARCH AS AN UPSIDE IN WHICH IF THAT SCIENCE AND RESEARCH IS COMMERCIALIZED, A RETURN COMES BACK TO THE FOUNDATION TO REINVEST IN MORE RESEARCH UNTIL ULTIMATELY WE HAVE MORE TREATMENTS AND A CURE.
REALLY THIS CREATES A SUSTAINABLE FUNDRAISING MODEL.
SOMEBODY GIVES US A DOLLAR, WE TURN THAT INTO $6.
IT ALSO SOLVES THE MARKET PROBLEM THAT IS NOT COMPLETELY UNIQUE TO RARE DISEASE WHAT WE CALL THE VALLEY OF DEATH IN MEDICAL RESEARCH.
MOST SCIENCE STRUGGLES TO GET OUT OF A BRILLIANT LAB LIKE DR.
TANG'S IN A BIOTECH OR PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANY TO GO THROUGH THE PHASES OF CLINICAL TRIAL AND GET REGULATORY APPROVALS.
IT CAN HELP MANY OTHER RARE DISEASES AS A MODEL THAT CAN BE SCALED.
>> MICHAEL, THIS FILM WAS SO WONDERFUL AND KIND OF OPENING THE AUDIENCE UP TO THE PERSONAL LIVES, EVEN A SMALL GLIMPSE OF THE LIVES OF SOME OF THE INDIVIDUALS THAT ARE AFFECTED BY THIS AND THEIR FAMILIES.
ONE OF THEM WAS DEANNA MOLINARO.
TELL US ABOUT DEANNA.
SHE TRAGICALLY PASSED AT 31 YEARS OF AGE WHILE MOST PEOPLE WITH E.B.
MIGHT DIE FAR SOONER, RIGHT.
WHAT MOVED YOU ABOUT HER, AND THE TIME THAT YOU KNEW HER?
>> DEANNA WAS A FORCE, A GIANT, A HERO.
YOU HEAR IN THE FILM PRETTY PROFOUND THINGS THAT DEANNA SAYS.
ONE OF THEM THAT STICKS WITH ME, SHE SAYS I LEARNED THAT LIFE IS ABOUT THE QUALITY, NOT THE QUANTITY OF THE YEARS.
AND THE ATTITUDE AND MENTALITY THAT SHE BROUGHT TO HER LIFE EVERY DAY DESPITE THE CHALLENGES THAT SHE FACED, DESPITE THE BURDEN THAT E.B.
PLACED ON HER, SHE GREETED EACH DAY WITH POSITIVITY, WITH JOY, WITH FIRE IN HER BELLY, WITH ART, WITH MUSIC, AND, YOU KNOW, IF YOU GET AN OPPORTUNITY, LOOK AT DEANNA'S ART BECAUSE IT REMINDS US OF WHO SHE IS.
LISTEN TO HER WORDS.
ONE OF THE MOST POWERFUL SCENES IN THE FILM TO ME IS WHEN SHE IS SIT BEING ROWAN DOING MAKEUP TOGETHER.
IT'S THIS MOMENT OF YOU HAVE TWO YOUNG WOMEN THAT WERE DEALT THE SAME GENE, YOU KNOW, AT BIRTH, AND DEANNA KNOWS THAT ROWAN'S LIFE WILL BE IMPROVED BECAUSE OF THE WORK OF PEOPLE LIKE DR.
JEAN TANG, BECAUSE OF THE WORK THAT OUR FOUNDATION HAS BEEN ABLE TO INVEST IN ACROSS THE PLANET.
BUT SHE ALSO KNEW HOW IMPORTANT HER TIME WITH ROWAN WAS TO REALLY BE THAT MENTOR, TO BE THAT FRIEND.
>> DR.
TANG, WITH THE HELP OF THIS PROGRAM, THIS PARTNERSHIP, YOU HAVE BEEN ABLE TO SEE IN THIS PARTICULAR CASE THREE FDA APPROVED TREATMENTS.
IT'S NOT QUITE A CURE, BUT WHAT DO THESE TREATMENTS DO FOR THE DIFFERENT KINDS OF E.B.
THAT EXISTS?
>> RIGHT.
SO ALL OF THESE TREATMENTS WOULDN'T HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT THE PATIENT FOUNDATION.
SO E.B.
IS ONE OF THE WORST DISEASES YOU'LL EVER HEAR ABOUT.
BUT WE ARE FORTUNATE BECAUSE WE HAVE THE POWER OF, YOU KNOW, WONDERFUL PATRON SAINTS LIKE EDDIE VEDDER AND THE FOUNDATION TO FUND THIS KIND OF RESEARCH.
THERE IS ABSOLUTELY NO WAY THAT FEDERAL GOVERNMENT MONEY AND GRANTS WOULD HAVE BROUGHT US HERE.
SO IN TERMS OF THE FDA APPROVED TREATMENTS, WHAT ARE THEY?
THESE ARE TOPICAL TREATMENTS THAT TRY TO HEAL EXISTING WOUNDS, CLOSE THEM, HEAL THEM SO THE CHILD FEELS LESS PAIN, LESS ITCH.
THEY ARE DEFINITELY HELPING THE PATIENT, THEIR FDA APPROVED.
THE ONE THAT I WORKED AND AT STANFORD IS ONE WHERE WE BIOPSY THE PATIENT'S SKIN CELLS, USE A VIRUS AND PUT IN THE CORRECT GENE AND SEW ON THE GENETICALLY CORRECTED CELLS TO HEAL THEIR SKINS.
THESE MEDICINES ARE COSTLY BECAUSE THERE AREN'T A LOT OF PATIENTS.
AS SCIENTISTS WE ARE TRYING TO THINK HOW TO MAKE THIS SCALABLE, DELIVER A TECHNOLOGY AND MEDICINE THAT CAN BE GIVEN TO PATIENTS WHEREVER THEY LIVE AND AT A PRICE WHERE IT'S NOT GOING TO BANKRUPT INSURANCE.
THESE ARE ALL HARD QUESTIONS.
>> WHAT YOU ARE DESCRIBING IS ALMOST A LAYER OF PRECISION IN MEDICINE THAT I HAVEN'T HEARD OF AND SEEN BEFORE.
IS THIS ENABLED BY CRISPER TECHNOLOGY OR AGAIN HOW DO YOU DO THIS FOR 100 OR 10,000 PATIENTS WITH, YOU KNOW, TO MAKE SURE THAT THE MED SEN WORKS FOR EACH OF THEM?
>> IT'S A GREAT QUESTION.
SO THE FDA APPROVED DRUGS USE VIRUSES CURRENTLY TO INSERT THE ENTIRE COLLAGEN 7 GENE INTO THE PATIENT'S CELLS.
SO NOW THE PATIENT'S CELLS ARE ABLE TO BIND TO THE BOTTOM OF THE SKIN LAYER AND THE WOUNDS WILL HEAL.
THAT PROCESS IS CUMBERSOME.
IT TAKES A LONG TIME.
NOW, WITH CRISPR GENE-EDITING, ONE CHALLENGE IS MANY OF THESE PATIENTS HAVE DIFFERENT MUTATIONS.
SO I BELIEVE NPR REPORTED THIS AND OTHERS.
BUT FDA CREATED A NEW MECHANISM AND GUIDANCE CALLED THE PLAUSIBLE MECHANISM.
THE IDEA WITH CRISPR GENE EDITING, I HAVE THE REAGENTS TO CORRECT PATIENT ONE, MUTATION ONE.
MOST OF THE REAGENTS ARE GOING TO BE THE SAME BETWEEN PATIENT ONE AND PATIENT TWO.
AND SO MAYBE THE REGULATORY BURDEN, THE TOXICOLOGY STUDIES, THE EXPERIMENTS THAT ONE HAS TO DO TO PUT THIS IN HUMANS FOR MUTATION TWO, MUTATION THREE, MUTATION FOUR IS GOING TO BE EASIER AND QUICKER.
AND THAT IS A SPECIFIC WAY IN WHICH GENE-EDITING MEDICINE, PRECISION MEDICINE CAN BE SCALED FASTER AND CHEAPER.
>> DR.
TANG, JUST NOR CLARIFICATION, WHAT IS THE THRESHOLD FOR A DEFINITION OF A RARE DISEASE?
I KNOW AT THE END OF THIS MONTH, FEBRUARY 28th IS GLOBAL RARE DISEASE DAY.
WHAT DO WE MEAN WHEN DE SAY SCHA.
>> THE GOVERNMENT'S DEFINITION OF WHAT QUAL TIES AS A RARE DISEASE IS A DISEASE WHERE THERE IS LESS THAN 200,000 PEOPLE IN THE WORLD.
AND SO IF YOU ADD UP ALL OF THE DIFFERENT TYPES OF RARE DISEASES, IT'S NOT SO RARE.
BUT THE INDIVIDUAL MUTATIONS SUCH AS E.B., IT IS RARE.
AND I'M SO GLAD THAT THERE IS A RARE DISEASE DAY JUST TO RAISE AWARENESS AND TELL PEOPLE MORE ABOUT THE PATIENTS, THE FAMILIES, THEIR NEED.
BUT I FEEL LIKE THIS DOCUMENTARY AND ALL OF THE PEOPLE THAT ARE PART OF IT, I MEAN, THEY DESERVE AN OLYMPIC MEDAL BECAUSE THE ARTISTS, THE MUSICIANS, CREATIVE FILMMAKERS, THE FUNDRAISERS, THE PATIENTS' FAMILIES, I MEAN, IT'S A STORY OF HOPE THAT WILL BRING SCIENCE AND SUCCESS OUT TO THE PUBLIC AND LEAVE IT TO THE ARTISTS AND THE CREATIVE PEOPLE TO TELL THE HUMANITARIAN STORY THAT SOMETIMES SCIENTISTS LIKE MYSELF AREN'T QUITE ABLE TO CONVEY.
>> WHEN YOU LOOK AT DISEASES, IT SEEMS THAT IF THERE IS NOT A CELEBRITY ATTACHED, IT'S ALMOST LIKE A "HUNGER GAMES" OR SURVIVOR COMPETITION WHERE YOU HAVE THIS FINITE RESOURCE AND YOU HAVE ALL THESE RARE DISEASES AND THESE FAMILIES KIND OF COMPETING FOR IT.
AND I DON'T KNOW, YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE BEEN IN THIS SPACE FOR A WHILE, AND I HATE TO BE CYNICAL ABOUT IT IN THAT WAY, BUT IT SEEMS LIKE THAT'S NOT EVERY DISEASE IS KIND OF GETTING ITS DAY IN THE SUN.
>> I DO THINK ONE OF THE SOLUTIONS FOR RARE DISEASE IS AS MUCH AS WE CAN GO IT TOGETHER BECAUSE, AGAIN, IN ISOLATION, THESE DISEASES ARE EXACTLY THAT.
THEY ARE RARE.
BUT WHEN YOU LOOK AT THE COHORT AND AGGREGATE OF ALL OF THOSE LIVING WITH A RARE DISEASE, I MEAN, THAT'S ONE IN TEN PEOPLE ON THE PLANET AFFECTED BY A RARE DISEASE, MORE THAN KANSAS AND HIV COMBINED.
THIS IS A BIG COHORT OF THOSE LIVING WITH RARE DISEASE, SOMETHING WE FOCUS ON AND ARE INTERESTED IN AS, YES, EVERY RARE DISEASE MAY NOT HAVE A CELEBRITY AMBASSADOR.
HOWEVER MOST RARE DISEASES FACE THE SAME CHALLENGES.
FUNDING FOR RESEARCH, RECRUITING FOR CLINICAL TRIALS, HAVING AWARENESS, HAVING A VOICE, THINGS LIKE A RARE DISEASE DAY HELP.
BUT FOR US HOW CAN WE TAKE A MODEL THAT WORKS, THAT'S CERTAINLY BENEFITTED FROM PEOPLE LIKE JILL AND EDDIE VEDDER.
HOW CAN WE SHARE THAT, COME TOGETHER AS A COMMUNITY AND UNITE AS A RARE DISEASE COMMUNITY AND SHARE THOSE SUCCESSES AND BENEFITS FROM FUNDRAISING TO MODELS TO RESEARCH TO SCALABLE NOW TECHNOLOGIES THAT WE HAVE IN MEDICINE AS YOU HEAR DR.
TANG TALK ABOUT.
GENE-EDITING.
THESE ARE THINGS THAT ARE TRANSFERABLE AND SCALABLE.
>> DR.
TANG, SIMILAR QUESTION TO YOU.
IS THERE A METHOD OR A PROCESS THAT YOU CAN SEE GOING FROM E.B.
TO OTHER RARE DISEASES AND WHERE YOU CAN INFORM OTHER RESEARCHERS, SAY HERE IS WHAT I DID, HERE IS WHAT IS PUBLISHED, WHAT YOU CAN RE-CREATE?
>> ABSOLUTELY.
THE GENE-EDITING FIELD IS INCREDIBLE.
AND I KNOW JENNIFER WAS ON YOUR SHOW AND EXPLAINED CRISPR GENE-EDITING AND DISCOVERED IT.
THE CHALLENGE IS IT'S WORKING IN THE LAB.
IN TERMS OF DRUG APPROVALS AND DRUGS GETTING TO THE PATIENTS, IT'S VERY FEW.
SO ANY GENE-EDITING PROGRAM, ANY CLINICAL TRIAL WITH REGULATORY INTERACTIONS WITH THE FDA, THAT WILL SET AN IMPORTANT PRECEDENCE FOR ALL OF THE OTHER GENE-EDITING DRUGS AND WHATEVER DIFFERENT DISEASES.
ANY PROGRESS, ANY RULES, ANY PRECEDENTS YOU SET WITH THE FDA WILL HELP ALL OF THE PROGRAMS.
WHAT IS THE QUALITY OF THE REAGENT, OF THE RNA, HOW MANY PATIENTS DOES IT TAKE TO SEE AN FDA APPROVAL, HOW LONG DO WE HAVE TO FOLLOW THE PATIENTS FOR SAFETY, RIGHT.
SO THE MORE WE'RE ABLE TO PROGRESS IN E.B., I KNOW IT WILL HELP ALL THE OTHER RARE GENETIC DISEASES.
>> DR.
TANG, RECENTLY THE ADMINISTRATION HAD CUT BACK ON ABOUT $9 BILLION WORTH OF GRANTS FOR THE NATIONAL INSTITUTES OF HEALTH.
THAT WAS ABOUT 2,600 DIFFERENT RESEARCH GRANTS, I THINK.
AND I DON'T KNOW IF DIRECTLY E.B.
WAS AFFECTED.
BUT I WONDER HOW HAS THIS END OF FUNDING AFFECTED THE LANDSCAPE OF THE RESEARCH THAT YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES ARE DOING INTO RARE DISEASES?
>> ALL I CAN SAY IS THE CUTS ARE TERRIBLE AND THE LANDSCAPE HAS CHANGED.
WE ARE HAVING A HARD ENOUGH TIME CONVINCING AMERICANS TO GO INTO SCIENCE.
AND WITH THAT KIND OF FUNDING CUT AND DESPERATION FOR RESEARCH DOLLARS, IT BASICALLY IS A DARK CLOUD ALL OVER SCIENCE.
IN TERMS OF THE GENE-EDITING TECHNOLOGY, THAT WAS DIRECTLY FUNDED BY THE NIH.
SO THINK ABOUT FOR THE NEXT, YOU KNOW, THREE TO FOUR YEARS WITH THESE CUTS IN SCIENCE FUNDING, WHAT OTHER RESEARCH TECHNOLOGIES ARE WE POTENTIALLY MISSING ON THAT ARE GAME BREAKING?
WHO ARE THE YOUNG SCIENTISTS AND THE LABS THAT WE AREN'T ABLE TO SUPPORT?
AND AS I SAID BEFORE, THERE IS NO WAY THAT THESE FDA APPROVED DRUGS FOR E.B.
WOULD HAVE HAPPENED WITHOUT THE E.B.
PATIENT FOUNDATIONS.
WE DIDN'T HAVE ENOUGH NIH DOLLARS, AND THE PATIENTS AND THE FAMILIES SOLD COOKIES, RAN MARATHONS, DID EVERYTHING THEY CAN TO ASK PEOPLE TO PUT MONEY IN THE JAR FOR US.
SO THAT CAN'T BE REPLICATED FOR EVERY PATIENT DISEASE OR PROBLEM.
AND THAT IS THE ROLE OF THE GOVERNMENT.
I'M SORRY GET ON MY HIGH HORSE, BUT WE NEED TO DO BETTER AS AMERICANS.
>> MICHAEL HUND AND DR.
JEAN TANG, THANK YOU FOR JOINING US.
>> THANK YOU, HARI.
>> THANK YOU.
>> AND FINALLY FOR US, DANCING, BOXING, AND FLEXING.
THAT'S HOW THESE CHINESE ROBOTS WELCOMED GERMAN CHANCELLOR ON HIS TWO DAY TRIP TO CHINA AS GERMANY RESHAPES ITS STRATEGIC RELATIONSHIP WITH THE ASIAN ECONOMIC POWERS HOUSE VISITING A LEADING CHINESE ROBOTICS COMPANY.
THESE ROBOTS ARE A CLEAR SIGN OF HOW SOPHISTICATED THE GLOBAL TEXASNOLOGY RACE HAS BECOME.
NOW, BEFORE WE GO, BE SURE TO TUNE IN TOMORROW WHEN WE JOURNEY INTO THE REMOTE HIGHLANDS OF ANGOLA.
ACCLAIMED GERMAN FILMMAKER WERNER HERZOG IS KNOWN FOR SHOOTING IN THE MOST EXTREME CORNERS OF THE WORLD, AND IN HIS LATEST PROJECT, GHOST ELEPHANTS, HE CHRONICLES A MAN'S SEARCH FOR AN ELUSIVE HERD BELIEVED TO EXIST ONLY IN LEGEND.
>> WE ACCOMPANIED STEVE TO THE ANGOLAN HIGHLANDS TO FIND THE ELUSIVE GHOST ELEPHANTS.
>> HELICOPTERS.
CAMERA TRAPS.
HUNDREDS OF THEM.
STILL HAVE NEVER SEEN ONE.
>> I SPEAK WITH WERNER HERZOG ABOUT THIS QUEST ALONGSIDE THE EXPLORER AT THE HEART OF IT.
IT WAS A PROJECT TOLD ME THEY HAD TO DO.
>> SO THAT IN MY MIND I HAD THE FEELING THIS WAS SOMETHING I HAD TO DO, YOU SEE.
SOMETIMES YOU HAVE NO CHOICE AND YOU HAVE TO DO IT.
>> AND THAT'S IT FOR OUR PROGRAM TONIGHT.
IF YOU WANT TO FIND OUT WHAT'S COMING UP ON THE SHOW EACH NIGHT, SIGN UP FOR OUR NEWSLETTER AT PBS.ORG/AMANPOUR.
THANK YOU FOR WATCHING "AMANPOUR & COMPANY."
JOIN US AGAIN TOMORROW NIGHT.
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