Flock Cameras Are Everywhere. Who’s Watching You?

> >> NOW, 1.

6 MILLION, THAT IS THE NUMBER OF IMAGES A SINGULAR FLOCK SURVEILLANCE CAMERA CAPTURED IN JUST 21 DAYS.

THIS COMPANY IS WELL-KNOWN IN THE UNITED STATES AND HAS BECOME A SOURCE OF CONSIDERABLE CONTROVERSY.

ACCORDING TO AN INVESTIGATION BY THE INDEPENDENT AMERICAN NEWS PUBLICATION 404 MEDIA, THE OUTLET, IN ASSOCIATION WITH A GROUP OF HACKER, BREACHED THE FLOCK SYSTEM BY SIMPLY RIPPING DOWN THE CAMERA FROM ABOVE THE ROADWAY, AND THEY GAINED ACCESS TO VAST AMOUNTS OF SENSITIVE INFORMATION LIKE THAT.

THEY UNCOVERED SOMETHING FAR MORE SINISTER ABOUT WHAT THE CAMERAS CAN BE USED FOR.

JASON KOEBLER JOINS HARI SREENIVASAN TO EXPLAIN THE RISKS OF THIS TECHNOLOGY AND HOW PEOPLE ARE FIGHTING BACK NOW.

>> CHRISTIANE, THANKS.

JASON KOEBLER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR JOINING US.

YOU AND 404 MEDIA HAVE BEEN REPORTING ON FLOCK CAMERAS FOR MONTHS AND MONTHS NOW, REALLY TECHNICALLY FOR YEARS.

MOST PEOPLE ARE NOT GOING TO BE FAMILIAR WITH FLOCK CAMERAS, EVEN IF THEY HAVE BEEN DRIVING BY THEM.

OR LIVING IN COMMUNITIES WITH THEM.

JUST GIVE US A BREAKDOWN OF WHAT THEY ACTUALLY DO.

>> YEAH, SO FLOCK IS A SURVEILLANCE COMPANY THAT SELLS SEVERAL DIFFERENT TYPES OF CAMERAS.

THEY ARE MOST FAMOUS FOR AUTOMATED LICENSE PLATE READER CAMERAS WHICH ARE CALLED ALPRs IN THE BUSINESS.

AND WHAT THESE ALPR CAMERAS DO IS THEY TAKE A PHOTO OF CARS AS THEY DRIVE BY.

FLOCK WAS FOUNDED IN GEORGIA AND STARTED IN A FEW DOZEN TOWNS, BUT OVER THE LAST FEW YEARS, IT'S EXPANDED TO BE IN 40% OF TOWNS IN THE UNITED STATES.

SO MORE THAN 10,000 CITIES.

AND WHAT MAKES FLOCK DIFFERENT IS THEY HAVE CREATED THIS NETWORK OF AUTOMATED LICENSE PLATE READER CAMERAS.

SO THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT'S BEEN AROUND FOR A LONG TIME.

BUT WHAT FLOCK HAS DONE IS THEY NETWORKED THEM TOGETHER.

SO IF A COP HAD ACCESS TO THIS TYPE OF CAMERA IN THE PAST, THEY MAY BE ABLE TO SEARCH FOR A STOLEN CAR OR A MISSING CHILD BY SEARCHING THE FIVE OR SEVEN CAMERAS THAT THEY HAVE IN THEIR TOWN.

WHAT FLOCK HAS DONE HAS ALLOWED THEM TO SEARCH FOR TENS OF THOUSANDS OF CAMERAS ACROSS THE ENTIRE COUNTRY.

THEY CAN SEARCH ONE TOWN OVER.

THEY CAN SEARCH ACROSS AN ENTIRE STATE OR THEY CAN SEARCH THE ENTIRE NATIONAL NETWORK.

SO RIGHT NOW THE BIG DEBATE IS SORT OF DO WE WANT THIS TECHNOLOGY IN OUR TOWNS?

AND IF SO, WHAT GUARDRAILS SHOULD THERE BE.

>> OKAY.

I WANT TO GET INTO SOME OF THOSE CASES IN A LITTLE BIT HERE.

YOU KNOW, I CAN SEE THE RATIONALE FOR HOW THE COMPANY STARTED.

IT WAS STARTED BY AN ENGINEER NAMED GARRETT LANGLEY, AND HE COULDN'T GET THE POLICE TO ACT AFTER BREAK-INS IN HIS NEIGHBORHOOD, RIGHT.

AND ONE OF THE PITCHES THAT FLOCK OFTEN MAKES TO LOCAL MUNICIPALITIES AND LAW ENFORCEMENT IS WHAT HAPPENS WHEN YOU WANT TO PUT OUT AN AMBER ALERT OR A SILVER ALERT.

SO WE CAN'T JUST LIMIT IT TO ONE PARTICULAR JURISDICTION IF THAT CAR CROSSES A MUNICIPALITY OR STATE LINE, YOU STILL WANT TO BE ABLE TO TRACK THAT CAR.

AND WHAT YOU'RE POINTING OUT IS THAT VERY CAPABILITY IS BEING ABUSED.

>> YEAH.

I THINK THE TRICKY THING IS THAT WE ARE A VERY DIVERSE COUNTRY POLITICALLY AND ALSO VERY LARGE COMPANY.

AND THIS TECHNOLOGY IS BEING SOLD TO LOCAL POLICE, AND THERE ARE VERY FEW GUARDRAILS ON IT.

THERE IS NO REQUIREMENT TO GET A WARRANT TO SEARCH THE SYSTEM.

SO YOU HAVE ESSENTIALLY TENS OF THOUSANDS OF POLICE OFFICERS WHO CAN LOG INTO THIS SEARCH ENGINE FOR VEHICLES, AND THEY ARE USING IT TO FIND MISSING CHILDREN.

THAT IS TRUE.

BUT THEN YOU ALSO HAVE COPS WHO ARE THINKING OH, WELL, MY WIFE, WHAT WAS SHE UP TO YESTERDAY?

AND THEY ARE TYPING THEIR LICENSE PLATE IN AND SEARCHING THAT.

AND THERE HAS BEEN INSTANCES OF COPS WHO HAVE DONE THIS HUNDREDS OF TIMES OVER THE COURSE OF MONTHS JUST SORT OF FOLLOWING THE SAME PERSON OVER AND OVER AGAIN WITH NO LAW ENFORCEMENT PURPOSE WHATSOEVER.

YOU HAVE CITIES THAT SIGNED UP FOR THIS THINKING IT WAS GOING PRIMARILY BE USED FOR TO FIND MISSING CHILDREN, LEARNING THAT IT HAS BEEN USED TO SURVEIL PROTESTERS BY PEOPLE SEVERAL TOWNS AWAY.

AND SO I THINK LIKE THROUGHOUT MUCH OF MY REPORTING WHAT I'VE LEARNED IS WHEN THERE ARE THESE ABUSES, I CALL UP SOME OF THE POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT HAVE HAD THEIR CAMERAS SEARCHED, AND A LOT OF THEM SORT OF DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT THIS WAS HAPPENING AT ALL.

THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THE NETWORK EFFECTS.

LIKE THEY UNDERSTOOD THAT THEY COULD SEARCH OTHER JURISDICTIONS' CAMERAS, BUT THEY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND THAT THEIR OWN CAMERAS WERE BEING SEARCHED.

AND A LOT OF CITIES SIGNED UP FOR THIS TECHNOLOGY MAYBE NOT FULLY UNDERSTANDING THAT.

AND SO THESE CASES OF ABUSE HAVE COME OUT.

AND YOU HAVE A LOT OF PEOPLE LIVING IN THESE TOWNS SAYING IS THIS SOMETHING THAT WE ACTUALLY WANT.

>> SO GIVE ME A RANGE OR AN UNDERSTANDING OF HOW NARROW OR HOW BROAD A SEARCH TERM CAN BE.

HOW GOOD IS THE TECHNOLOGY?

AND HOW SEARCHABLE IS THIS DATABASE?

>> YEAH, THE MAIN TYPES OF SEARCHES ARE FOR SPECIFIC LICENSE PLATES.

THAT IS HOW FLOCK'S STARTED.

IT IS AN AUTOMATIC LICENSE PLATE READER.

SO YOU TYPE IN A SPECIFIC LICENSE PLATE, AND IT CAN SHOW A COP WHERE THAT PERSON HAS BEEN EITHER OVER THE LAST 30 OR LAST SEVEN DAYS.

ANY TIME THAT VEHICLE HAS DRIVEN PAST ONE OF THESE CAMERAS, WHICH ARE ON EITHER LIGHT POLES OR ON INDIVIDUAL POLES AT INTERSECTIONS.

BUT FLOCK ALSO HAS A SYSTEM CALLED FREE FORM SEARCH THAT ALLOWS POLICE TO TYPE --USE IT ESSENTIALLY AS A GOOGLE-LIKE SYSTEM.

SO YOU CAN TYPE BLACK SUV.

YOU CAN TYPE WOMAN WITH HOODIE.

YOU CAN TYPE MAN WALKING DOG.

AND THE SYSTEM AND ITS ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE WILL PULL UP THOSE SEARCH RESULTS.

AND SOME OF THESE CASES OF ABUSE HAVE HAPPENED BECAUSE OF ESSENTIALLY FAULTY SEARCHES.

THERE IS A WOMAN IN FLORIDA WHO IS DRIVING A BLACK SUV.

THERE WAS A HIT-AND-RUN ACCIDENT THAT KILLED THREE PEOPLE IN AN AREA THAT SHE WAS DRIVING.

THERE WAS A BLACK SUV REPORTED.

THE COPS SHOWED UP AT THIS WOMAN'S HOUSE AND ARRESTED HER.

SHE SPENT 13 DAYS IN PRISON.

THERE WAS NOT A SCRATCH ON HER CAR.

IT WAS THE WRONG VEHICLE.

BUT BECAUSE THE FLOCK SYSTEM DETECTED HER BEING NEAR THE SITE OF THIS ACCIDENT, COPS ASSUMED THAT IT WAS HER VEHICLE INVOLVED AND ONLY LATER DID THEY FIGURE OUT IT WAS A DIFFERENT BLACK SUV.

>> SO THE TECHNOLOGY LED HER TO BE GUILTY UNTIL PROVEN INNOCENT.

>> WELL, WHAT FLOCK HAS BEEN SAYING IS THAT THESE TYPES OF MISTAKES ARE A RESULT OF COPS NOT USING THE SYSTEM CORRECTLY.

LOS ANGELES, FOR EXAMPLE, ENDED ITS CONTRACT WITH FLOCK, THE LAPD, BECAUSE THEY FOUND THAT THEY WERE REGULARLY PULLING OVER CARS THAT WERE REPORTED STOLEN, BUT THEY WERE ESSENTIALLY PULLING OVER INNOCENT PEOPLE.

AND WHAT WAS HAPPENING THERE WAS A CAR WAS REPORTED STOLEN.

IT WOULD BE RECOVERED, BUT THEN IN SOME POLICE DATABASE, BECAUSE YOU HAVE VARIOUS DATABASES TALKING TO EACH OTHER, IN SOME DATABASE, THAT CASE WOULD NEVER BE CLEARED.

SO THE CAR WOULD STILL BE SHOWN AS STOLEN MONTHS OR WEEKS LATER A COP WOULD PULL OVER THAT PERSON AND EXPECT TO FIND A CRIMINAL WHO HAD STOLEN A CAR, AND THEY FOUND THE OWNER OF THE VEHICLE.

THIS HAS HAPPENED HUNDREDS OF TIMES, ACCORDING TO AN INSPECTORS GENERAL REPORT IN LOS ANGELES.

SO THIS IS A TECHNOLOGY THAT I DO THINK HOLDS PROMISE, BUT IT'S SOMETHING THAT'S BEEN DEPLOYED IN A HUGE WAY ALL ACROSS THE UNITED STATES AND WE'RE KIND OF LEARNING THE LIMITS OF THE TECHNOLOGY AS WELL AS THE WAYS THAT IT CAN BE ABUSED.

>> YOUR REPORTING IS BASED ON READING HUNDREDS OF AUDIT LOGS SO THAT EVERY TIME ONE OF THESE THINGS HAPPENS, THERE IS A PUBLIC RECORD OF IT.

AND YOU WERE ABLE TO SEARCH THROUGH, YOU AND YOUR COLLEAGUES AT 404 WERE ABLE TO SEARCH THROUGH ALL THESE.

HOW MANY OF THESE AUTO REPORTS ARE GENERATED?

AND WERE YOU ABLE TO -- ARE YOU ABLE TO SEE ALL OF THEM AT THE SAME TIME?

OR ARE YOU JUST BASING YOUR REPORTING ON THE BATCHES THAT YOU SEE?

>> YEAH, THIS HAS BEEN A REALLY EXCITING AND INTERESTING REPORTING PROJECT FOR US BECAUSE OF THE WAY THAT FLOCK WORKS.

WE'RE ESSENTIALLY LEARNING WHAT THE ENTIRE COUNTRY IS USING FLOCK FOR.

BECAUSE EACH TIME ANY POLICE OFFICER IN THE ENTIRE COUNTRY SEARCHES THIS SYSTEM, IT VERY OFTEN WILL HIT THOUSANDS OF CAMERAS ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

AND SO WE WERE ABLE TO LEARN FROM POLICE DEPARTMENTS IN ILLINOIS THAT POLICE OFFICERS IN SOUTH CAROLINA WERE SEARCHING THEIR CAMERAS FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

WE WERE ABLE TO LEARN FROM THOSE SAME POLICE DEPARTMENTS THAT POLICE OFFICERS IN CALIFORNIA WERE SURVEILLING THE NO KINGS PROTESTERS.

TO GIVE A SENSE OF THE SCALE, THERE ARE TENS OF THOUSANDS OF SEARCHES A DAY.

ONE OF THESE AUDIT LOGS IS ESSENTIALLY AN EXCEL SPREADSHEET THAT JUST GOES ON FOREVER.

IT FEELS LIKE AN ENDLESS SCROLL.

AND THE INFORMATION CONTAINED IN IT IS THE TIME OF THE SEARCH, THE NUMBER OF NETWORKS SEARCHED, MEANING THE NUMBER OF TOWNS THAT WERE SEARCHED, THE OVERALL NUMBER OF CAMERAS THAT WERE SEARCHED, WHICH IN MANY CASES IS 80,000 AND 100,000.

AND THEN CRUCIALLY, THE POLICE NEED TO PUT A REASON FOR PERFORMING THE SEARCH.

AND VERY OFTEN THAT REASON TAB WILL SAY "STOLEN VEHICLE" OR "DRUG TRAFFICKING INVESTIGATION" OR "MISSING PERSON REPORT. "

BUT VERY OFTEN IT WILL JUST SAY SOMETHING LIKE INVESTIGATION OR TEST OR EXAMPLE.

AND THEN WE HAVE FOUND THESE CASES WHERE IT SAYS SOMETHING LIKE LOITERING OR PROTESTS OR IN ONE CASE IN TEXAS, WE FOUND ONE WHERE THEY WERE SEARCHING FOR A WOMAN WHO HAD AN ABORTION.

LIKE THAT WAS SPECIFICALLY SORT OF SPELLED OUT.

>> SO HOW HAVE I. C. E. OFFICER BEEN USING THE SYSTEM?

>> YEAH, THIS ONE IS A LITTLE BIT COMPLICATED BECAUSE I. C. E. DOES NOT HAVE A FORMAL CONTRACT WITH FLOCK.

THE WAY THAT THEY HAVE ACCESSED FLOCK DATA IS THROUGH A PROGRAM CALLED 287-G WHICH ALLOWS LOCAL POLICE TO DO IMMIGRATION ENFORCEMENT.

SO WHAT HAS HAPPENED IS THESE LOCAL POLICE DEPARTMENTS WILL SEARCH FOR AN UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT AS PART OF THIS PARTNERSHIP.

AND SO THEN ON THE FLOCK AUDIT REPORTS, IT WILL SHOW THAT A TOWN OR CITY IN TEXAS OR TENNESSEE OR SOUTH CAROLINA HAS SEARCHED FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANT OR I. C. E. INVESTIGATION OR HS iHOME LAND SECURITY INVESTIGATIONS INVESTIGATION.

AND IT WILL SAY IMMIGRATION, BUT THEN WHEN YOU TALK TO THE POLICE THERE, THEY'LL SAY OH, THIS WAS PART OF OUR 287-G PROGRAM.

THIS WAS PART OF OUR TASK FORCE WITH I. C. E. AND SO FLOCK IS NOT WORKING DIRECTLY WITH I. C. E. , BUT THROUGH OUR REPORTING THROUGH THESE AUDIT LOGS, WE WERE ABLE TO SHOW THERE HAVE BEEN HUNDREDS OF SEARCHES FOR UNDOCUMENTED IMMIGRANTS.

FLOCK HAS NOT REALLY PUT A STOP TO THIS.

THERE HAS BEEN QUITE A BIT OF BACKLASH.

BUT THESE TYPES OF SEARCHES HAVE CONTINUED.

>> FLOCK PUT OUT A STATEMENT ABOUT THIS SAYING FLOCK DOES NOT WORK WITH U. S. IMMIGRATION AND CUSTOMS ENFORCEMENT.

COMMUNITIES CONTROL FEDERAL DATA ACCESS.

ICE DOES NOT HAVE DIRECT ACCESS TO FLOCK CAMERA SYSTEMS OR DATA UNLESS THE AGENCIES THAT CONTROL THEIR DATA EXPRESSLY AND DELIBERATELY ALLOW IT.

YOU ALSO POINT OUT THAT IT'S NOT JUST ONE SPECIFIC TYPE OF CAMERA THAT FLOCK IS SELLING.

THEY HAVE A SUITE OF DIFFERENT ONES.

AND ONE THAT YOU REPORTED ABOUT IS CALLED A CONDOR CAMERA.

WHAT'S DIFFERENT ABOUT IT?

>> SO CONDOR IS KILLED A PAN--TILT-ZOOM CAMERA.

IT'S BASICALLY A HIGH DEFINITION VIDEO CAMERA THAT IS GENERALLY INTENDED TO TRACK PEOPLE, NOT VEHICLES.

AND THESE ARE THE CAMERAS THAT FLOCK LEFT EXPOSED TO THE INTERNET.

SO IN ORDER TO TEST THIS, WE BASICALLY FOUND A FEW PLACES WHERE THESE CAMERAS WERE STATIONED.

I WENT UP TO BAKERSFIELD, CALIFORNIA, AND WALKED MY DOG PAST SOME OF THESE CAMERAS.

AND THE AI WITHIN THESE CAMERAS WOULD ACTUALLY TRACK ME AS I WAS KIND OF WALKING ACROSS THIS INTERSECTION.

THESE ARE PLACED OFTEN ON BIKE PATHS AT PLAYGROUNDS, THINGS LIKE THIS.

AND IT FEEDS INTO THIS LARGER SYSTEM THAT FLOCK HAS CALLED FLOCK OS, WHICH IS ESSENTIALLY A PIECE OF SOFTWARE THAT COMBINES THESE TYPE OF CAMERAS, OTHER CAMERAS THAT POLICE DEPARTMENTS MIGHT OPERATE, WHETHER THEY BE CCTV CAMERAS, 911 SYSTEMS, THESE ALPR CAMERAS.

AND THEY HAVE 30, 40 DIFFERENT VIDEO FEEDS, YOU KNOW, AVAILABLE TO THEM AT ANY TIME.

>> IN THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND MONTHS, WE'VE SEEN CASES WHERE PEOPLE AND GROUPS OF PEOPLE ARE DISMANTLING, YOU CAN CALL IT VANDALISM, YOU CAN CALL IT PRIVACY PROTECTION, BUT THEY'RE TAKING THESE CAMERAS DOWN.

>> YEAH.

SO THE PUSHBACK TO FLOCK HAS DEFINITELY BEEN TWO-PRONGED.

THERE IS THE POLITICAL PUSHBACK WHERE PEOPLE ARE SHOWING UP AT CITY COUNCIL MEETINGS AND SAYING WE DIDN'T KNOW THAT THESE CAMERAS WERE IN OUR TOWN, AND WE WANT TO HAVE A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE CONTRACT.

THAT'S BEEN THE VAST MAJORITY OF THE PUSHBACK.

BUT THEN AS YOU SAID, THERE HAVE BEEN PEOPLE WHO HAVE SHOT FLOCK CAMERAS WITH SHOTGUNS.

THERE IS PEOPLE WHO HAVE SPRAYED EXPANDING FOAM AND SPRAY PAINT ON THE LENSES OF THE CAMERAS.

I SAW AN GRAHAM VIDEO OF SOMEONE WHO CUT A FLOCK CAMERA DOWN AND FED IT TO AN ALLIGATOR IN FLORIDA.

SO THIS TYPE OF THING HAS BEEN HAPPENING ALL ACROSS THE COUNTRY.

WE'VE BEEN TRYING TO DOCUMENT THIS BY TRACKING LOCAL NEWS REPORTS AND THINGS LIKE THIS.

AND I THINK THIS IS A TYPE OF EXTREME VANDALISM.

IT'S HARD TO PUT A PIN ON WHO IS DOING THIS BECAUSE THE OPPOSITION TO FLOCK SEEMS TO BE --WELL, IT'S DEFINITELY BIPARTISAN.

IT'S ONE OF THE FEW THINGS THAT REPUBLICANS AND DEMOCRATS SEEM TO AGREE ON.

AND THEY SEEM TO OPPOSE THIS TECHNOLOGY FOR DIFFERENT REASONS.

>> I WONDER, IS THIS A PROBLEM WITH TECHNOLOGY OR IS THIS A PROBLEM WITH KIND OF GENERICALLY PEOPLE AND HOW WE USE AND ABUSE TECHNOLOGY?

>> YEAH, IT IS A HUMAN PROBLEM.

THE TECHNOLOGY ENABLES THIS TYPE OF ABUSE OR MAKES IT A LOT EASIER TO DO.

THE TECHNOLOGY ALSO MAKES IT A BIT EASIER TO CATCH.

FLOCK, TO ITS CREDIT, HAS THESE AUDITING SYSTEMS THAT ALLOWS A POLICE DEPARTMENT TO GO IN AND SEE AN OFFICER'S SEARCH HISTORY, FOR EXAMPLE.

IN RESPONSE TO OUR REPORTING AND REPORTING BY "THE WASHINGTON POST" AND OTHER JOURNALISTS, FLOCK HAS SORT OF DONE SOME PROACTIVE FLAGGING OF ANOMALOUS SEARCHES, MEANING IF ITS SYSTEM DETECTS THE COPS SEARCHING THE SAME LICENSE PLATE OVER AND OVER AND OVER AGAIN, YOU KNOW, IT WILL AUTOMATICALLY FLAG THAT AND SAY IS THIS LEGITIMATE INVESTIGATION OR IS THIS A POLICE OFFICER ABUSING THE SYSTEM AND A SUPERVISOR NEEDS TO THEN GO IN AND SORT OF INVESTIGATE WHAT'S GOING ON THERE.

I DO THINK THAT THE BACKLASH TO FLOCK IS BASED ON SOME OF THE ABUSES THAT WE'VE SEEN.

BUT I ALSO THINK IT'S PART OF A BROADER ANXIETY ABOUT ARTIFICIAL INTELLIGENCE AND ABOUT SURVEILLANCE IN GENERAL.

>> THERE ARE SOME LEGAL CHALLENGES IN DIFFERENT COMMUNITIES AS WELL.

WHAT ARE THE PLAINTIFFS BASICALLY ARGUING?

>> SO PLAINTIFFS ARE BASICALLY ARGUING THIS IS A VIOLATION OF THEIR FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS.

THERE IS A CASE IN NORFOLK, VIRGINIA WHERE ESSENTIALLY THIS MAN IS ARGUING THAT HE CAN'T LEAVE HIS HOME WITHOUT DRIVING BY ONE OF THESE CAMERAS, AND THEN THE ELECTRONIC FRONTIER FOUNDATION AND THE AMERICAN CIVIL LIBERTIES UNION IS SUING THE CITY OF SAN JOSE ON MUCH THE SAME GROUNDS, ARGUING THAT THIS TECHNOLOGY VIOLATES THE FOURTH AMENDMENT.

SO FAR COURTS HAVE ARGUED THAT YOU DON'T HAVE A RIGHT TO PRIVACY IN PUBLIC.

MOST OF THESE CAMERAS ARE ON, YOU KNOW, PUBLIC INTERSECTIONS, THAT SORT OF THING.

BUT THE ARGUMENT THAT IS BEING MADE IS THAT THE NETWORKING TOGETHER OF ALL THESE CAMERAS VIOLATES THE FOURTH AMENDMENT RIGHTS TO PRIVACY.

THAT IT IS TRUE THAT A POLICE OFFICER CAN SIT ON A STREET CORNER AND TAKE A PHOTOGRAPH OF YOUR LICENSE PLATE AND THERE IS NO PROBLEM THERE.

BUT SHOULD A COMPANY BE ABLE TO DO THIS PERSISTENTLY OVER TIME HAVE A DATABASE OF IT AND SHOULD COPS BE ABLE TO QUERY THAT DATABASE ANY TIME THAT THEY WANT WITHOUT A WARRANT.

>> ON THE FLOCK SITE, THE CEO HAS A STATEMENT.

PART OF IT IS THE GOAL ISN'T TO MAXIMIZE SAFETY AT THE EXPENSE OF PRIVACY.

THE GOAL IS TO MAXIMIZE BOTH, AND THAT IT SHOULD HELP INVESTIGATORS SOLVE CRIMES FASTER THAT MAKE AUDIT TRAILS EASIER TO DETECT MISUSE.

I WONDER, CONSIDERING YOU WERE ONE OF THE FIRST OUTLETS TO FINDING THIS INFORMATION AND DOING THIS SET OF STORIES, WHAT'S THE RESPONSE FROM FLOCK BEN LIKE TO YOUR REPORTING?

>> I WOULD SAY IT'S BEEN A BIT ADVERSARIAL.

GARRETT LANGLEY, THE CEO DID A VIDEO INTERVIEW LAST YEAR WITH FORBES, FOR EXAMPLE, AND HE CALLED US ACTIVIST JOURNALISTS.

HE AT THE TIME CALLED THE DEFLOCK MOVEMENT, WHICH IS THE MOVEMENT TO GET RID OF FLOCK, CALLED THEM TERRORISTS.

HE SINCE APOLOGIZED FOR THOSE REMARKS.

I THINK FLOCK IS A COMPANY THAT EXPANDED VERY RAPIDLY, AND IT'S A COMPANY THAT, YOU KNOW, A LOT OF THE CITIES AND TOWNS THAT BOUGHT THIS TECHNOLOGY DIDN'T UNDERSTAND WHAT THEY'RE BUYING.

WE KNOW THAT'S THE CASE BECAUSE DOZENS OF TOWNS HAVE SINCE CANCELED THEIR CONTRACTS WITH FLOCK SAYING THIS IS NOT WHAT WE BARGAINED FOR.

I THINK THAT FLOCK HAS MADE SOME REFORMS IN RESPONSE TO OUR REPORTING, AND I THINK THAT IT'S GOOD THAT THEY'VE MADE THOSE REFORMS.

BUT I THINK A LOT OF THE ABUSES WE'VE SEEN HAVE BEEN A RESULT OF THIS COMPANY EXPANDING SO RAPIDLY WITHOUT PREDICTING THE TYPES OF WAYS THAT IT'S BEEN ABUSED.

AND I THINK THAT PROBABLY YOU'D LIKE TO SEE A BIT MORE CARE, YOU KNOW, AND MAYBE FORETHOUGHT INTO HOW A NETWORK LIKE THIS COULD BE ABUSED SO THAT THE PROTECTIONS ARE MORE PROACTIVE RATHER THAN REACTIVE.

>> CO-FOUNDER OF 404 MEDIA JASON KOEBLER, THANKS SO MUCH FOR YOUR TIME.

>> THANK YOU SO MUCH FOR HAVING ME.