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BIANNA GOLODRYGA, ANCHOR: Hello, everyone, and welcome to “Amanpour and Company.” Here’s what’s coming up.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CHRISTIANA FIGUERES, FORMER U.N. CLIMATE CHIEF: The ceiling that protects most vulnerable countries and most vulnerable populations around the world,
which is a 1.5-degree ceiling, is now at least temporarily out of reach.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: With the world on track to miss a major climate goal, Christiana Figueres, a leading architect of the Paris Climate Agreement,
tells Christiana why there’s still reason to be hopeful.
Plus —
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KATY HESSEL, AUTHOR, “HOW TO LIVE AN ARTFUL LIFE”: Everyone begins with a blank page or a blank canvas. The task is to just go for it. And so, I
think artists can teach us all sorts of things.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Finding art and creativity in everyday life. Best-selling writer, art historian and broadcaster Katy Hessel joins me to discuss her
latest project, “How to Live an Artful Life.”
And then, Grammy Award winning musician Jacob Collier speaks to Hari Sreenivasan about his new album, “The Light for Days,” and why he’s calling
it his scruffiest one yet.
Welcome to the program, everyone. I’m Bianna Golodryga in New York, sitting in for Christiane Amanpour.
Ten years ago in Paris, the world set its fundamental climate goal, to limit a rise in global temperatures to 1.5 degrees Celsius. Well, now the
results are in. As leaders are gathering in Brazil for the COP30 climate conference, the United Nations has issued a strong message that not enough
has been done, and the world is on track to far exceed that 1.5-degree limit.
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ANTONIO GUTERRES, UNITED NATIONS SECRETARY GENERAL: If we act now at speed and scale, we can make the overshoot as small, as short and as safe as
possible, and bring temperatures back below 1.5 degrees Celsius before centuries end.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
GOLODRYGA: Scientists say the impacts of such a rise could be catastrophic, with extreme weather events like Hurricane Melissa becoming
more frequent and even more destructive. It comes, though, as the United States, historically one of the world’s biggest polluters, is turning its
back on the climate fight.
Since taking office, President Trump has rolled back a slew of environmental protections and is encouraging other countries to do the
same. So, with the politics seemingly stalled, what can be done? And are climate conferences like COP the place to achieve progress?
Christiana Figueres is a former U.N. climate chief and was a leading architect of the 2015 Paris Climate Agreement. She joined Christiane in Rio
de Janeiro just ahead of the COP conference.
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CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: Christiana Figueres, welcome back to our program. So, you are the most relentlessly optimistic
person I’ve ever encountered.
CHRISTIANA FIGUERES, FORMER U.N. CLIMATE CHIEF: I am so sorry about that.
AMANPOUR: I’m so happy to hear it.
FIGUERES: But actually, I’m very happy.
AMANPOUR: Good. I’m glad you still are, because everybody’s doom and gloom. I mean, we can talk about Bill Gates in a moment. We can talk about
the U.S. rolling back all its regulations. But first and foremost, here we are, COP and the Earthshot Prize as a prelude to COP, which is all about
grassroots and innovation and people and they getting rewarded. Is that a source of optimism? Are there real green shoots that are coming up?
FIGUERES: There are. And the fact is that we have to realize that, yes, geopolitics is what it is, and we can talk about it if you wish. But side
by side with that, we see a new economy that is rising. And it is rising because it is compelling just from an economic point of view. The fact that
we have now, compared to where we were in Paris when you and I were together. 10 years ago, one in every hundred vehicles that were being sold
was electric. Now, we have one in five.
We have two times as much investment into renewable energy as we do into fossil fuels. Solar has been deployed 15 times faster than we ever expected
10 years ago. And on and on and on, there are many proof points that there’s a new economy rising.
What is really exciting about the Earthshot Prize is that it supports, it finds these fantastic innovators and supports people who, within each of
their industries or within each of their sectors, they are, through their on-the-ground engagement, they’re trying to do sectoral transformation.
AMANPOUR: Meaning?
FIGUERES: Meaning they’re wanting to change the way the entire industry works, whether it’s the fashion industry, whether it’s the energy industry,
whatever industry they’re in, they’re trying to change the entire industry. Through their example.
AMANPOUR: And through the example of the big leaders on the world stage, there’s a whole different narrative coming. So, Donald Trump famously, at
the UNGA in September, essentially castigated all the nations doing green economy and green technology, called them failures, said that it was all a
hoax, it wouldn’t work, and this and that. He doesn’t get it, and he’s a dealmaker. Why does he not get that this is good for the economy?
And the second question related to that is, who’s benefiting the most? Is it China who’s doing better than the U.S., while the U.S. rolls back all
the time?
FIGUERES: Well, in the U.S., who’s benefiting, of course, is the fossil fuel industry. He’s doing it because he’s beholden to the fossil fuel
industry. As we remember, they put quite a bit of capital into his campaign. And so, it’s not just his ideology, it’s actually that he is
financially beholden to them, and that he is scared that if we continue to transform the economy toward the electrotech and clean technologies, that
there will be less and less of market for export of oil and gas from the United States. So, that we understand.
It’s very sad, because his pullout is definitely capping the possibility of U.S. industry to participate in a very competitive new economy and opening
the chance for China, as you say, to come in and continue to take the lead. This is not the first time that they’re taking the lead. They have been
taking the lead for many years, but now the playground is wide open.
AMANPOUR: Also, on a sort of a more micro level in the United States and elsewhere, including in Brazil, the mayor of Rio de Janeiro, in a program I
think that was launched by Mayor Bloomberg at the time, really got mayors to do things. If the federal wasn’t going to do it, the mayors, certainly
across the United States.
Have you been monitoring that? How does the — how does local and state level do in the U.S. on climate, you know, innovation and change?
FIGUERES: I was just at their meeting yesterday, actually. And it is quite impressive that I would say the first person who got 400 mayors together
was Mayor Anne Hidalgo of Paris 10 years ago. And this trend has continued. It has continued not because it is the same mayors who are there 10 years
later, mayors change in democracies, but because the institutionality has changed, because the accountability to citizens has not changed, because
that is constant.
So, there is an extraordinary number of mayors and leaders of regions, provinces, or states that have said, we — first of all, we want to be
accountable to our people because most citizens want their leaders to be responsible about climate change. It is in their interest. And also, these
local leaders are saying, we don’t have time to deal with national leaders who go up and down about the flavor of the month, do we like climate, do we
not. They know that the decarbonization of the global economy is irreversible and unstoppable and that it is good for their people. So, they
are actually keeping the pace and keeping the direction.
AMANPOUR: Only it’s not going fast enough, as I think we can all agree.
FIGUERES: Definitely.
AMANPOUR: The trend is in the right direction, I think you are saying, but the pace is not fast enough.
FIGUERES: Absolutely.
AMANPOUR: I heard a very interesting scientist in the U.K. at the University of Oxford saying that we have pretty much failed, because of all
the things you have just talked about, to reduce significantly greenhouse gas emissions. But, he said, there is a technology right now that we can
activate right now to do the other thing, which is carbon capture. And that at least could buy us some time until we get to a sensible consensus on
greenhouse gases. Where are you on carbon capture?
FIGUERES: Well, as in most things in life, binary thinking does not help. So, first, let’s recognize that in the decade before Paris, we had an 18
percent increase in global greenhouse gas emissions. Today, that is down to 1.8, 10 decades later. So — 10 years later. So, the difference between the
two decades is absolutely admirable.
We definitely should not be at 1.8. We should be already decreasing rather than barely increasing. We should be contracting our greenhouse gases, so
we have to go to speed and scale. But we are in the right direction.
The fact is that most scientists have now told us that the ceiling that protects most vulnerable countries and most vulnerable populations around
the world, which is a 1.5-degree ceiling, is now at least temporarily out of reach. That is very concerning. That is exceedingly concerning. We
already breached it last year, and we now know that it will very likely be breached maybe two, three, 10 years more temporarily.
AMANPOUR: You say temporarily, but what if it isn’t?
FIGUERES: Temporarily. Well, but then I come back to your carbon capture, right, carbon removal. That’s why I think that it’s important to
understand, because, A, we will continue to improve the technologies that reduce emissions both in the energy and in the land-use sector, but also,
it is now very possible that we will have to use some safe carbon removal technologies that are currently not commercially viable, but that need to
attract the investment that is necessary to make them commercially viable.
AMANPOUR: What happens when it’s not just a President Trump, and I use him because he’s the usual suspect. Look, he took the U.S. twice out of the
Paris Climate Accords, which you negotiated, 195 people, you were the U.N.’s chief negotiator on all of that. But what happens when a Bill Gates
starts to roll back, when he who’s been at the forefront of not just health solutions around the world, but about — you know, about climate?
He’s just written a very much discussed memo that was released saying that climate change is a serious problem, but will not end civilization.
Temperature is not the best way, he says, to measure our progress on climate. Health and prosperity are the best defenses against climate
change. He also wrote COP30 is a chance to refocus on the metric that should count even more than emissions and temperature change, that is
improving lives. And you responded?
FIGUERES: I responded, it’s very understandable that Bill Gates, who is a friend, thinks in binary terms because all of the computing world is based
on binary thinking. Ones and zeros, that is the basis of computing. So, it’s very understandable that he does this binary thinking and binary
analysis.
However, the real world is not binary. The real world is actually interconnected. And so, there is no use in us exclusively dealing with
health, with poverty, if we don’t also protect people against the ravages of climate change. And sadly, for him, he published this memo exactly in
the time in which Melissa hit Jamaica. And so, the question, you know, is let’s ask the Jamaicans whether, even if they had had perfect health and
perfect quality of life, would that have protected them against Melissa? The answer is no.
AMANPOUR: Indeed.
FIGUERES: We have to do both.
AMANPOUR: Indeed, you did an extensive X or Instagram response. Sorry, Bill Gates, no amount of human welfare in Jamaica would have stopped,
prevented, or reduced the impact of Category 5 Melissa.
So, let’s now talk about hurricanes because this is also — everything becomes political. Everything becomes political. So, people will say, well,
it’s not global warming that creates hurricanes. And I think scientists also agree. But it is global warming and sea warming particularly that
creates their ferocity and the more and more.
FIGUERES: Exactly.
AMANPOUR: And that is something —
FIGUERES: The amplification.
AMANPOUR: The amplification.
FIGUERES: Yes.
AMANPOUR: And I wonder, where are we? I mean, they just had a — didn’t they have an oceanic report recently? I mean, the oceans are really getting
hotter.
FIGUERES: They are getting much warmer. And that’s the issue. Just to take Melissa as one example, it might have been a Category 2 or 3 or maybe
maximum 4 hurricane, but it got to 5 very, very quickly because on its path, it passed over oceans that were three degrees warmer than they should
be. And because the ocean is warmer, that means there is more evaporation. The hurricane takes in more and more humidity and becomes much more
ferocious.
So, let no one say that climate change produces hurricanes, but it definitely makes them more ferocious and very likely more frequent.
AMANPOUR: Here in Brazil, the minister of the environment has talked about Tropical Forest Forever Fund.
FIGUERES: Yes.
AMANPOUR: What do you understand that means?
FIGUERES: That is a very courageous and visionary enterprise that Brazil is launching to do something that we should have done many years ago, and
that is protect standing forests and recover lands that have been deforested and do it especially through empowering and financing indigenous
peoples who own and have protected at least 40 percent of the forest canopy and forest cover of this planet, and have never been given the support to
continue that very important protective role that they play.
So, Brazil, I think, is doing something very important at this COP. They’re bringing two issues that have never been front and center, and they’re
putting it front and center. One is, what are we going to do about land use? Because most of us, me included, focus on energy because it’s 75
percent of global emissions. But we tend to forget that 25 percent comes from inadequate land use and that that needs to be addressed, especially
because there are so many lives, both human and more than human lives, that depend on the health of our forest cover.
So, they’re putting land use front and center and indigenous peoples and First Nations peoples. That is very unusual. That is a first for a climate
COP. We saw it at the Biodiversity COP in Colombia just a few months ago, and I really salute them for that because they are sticking their political
neck out to do two things that don’t yet have a lot of political public support but that need it.
AMANPOUR: Can I ask you, too, what do you think of the fact, you know, that this COP is back in a, you know, this is the lungs of the world, this
is very different from the last two which were in Petro states, UAE and Azerbaijan? Is that just a location issue or do you think it actually bears
any kind of meaning on results of what comes out?
FIGUERES: It’s very symbolic and very intentional. The COP presidency, in fact the Brazilian government, very intentionally chose Belem, which is in
the heart of the Amazon, to make their point, let us not forget about the trees, let us not forget about nature. And so, the fact that we will all be
there means we will not be able to forget that. But just in case we forget, they’re going to put it on the negotiating table.
AMANPOUR: Do you think it was a mistake to have it in the last two locations, Petro states? I mean, you started talking about fossil fuel
lobby.
FIGUERES: Yes. I think it was sadly not handled as best as it could. I don’t think the location was a problem. I think the political handling was
problematic.
AMANPOUR: And then for people when they think about this, so many people are really depressed about the climate, about this existential crisis. I
think you’ve talked about, you know, how you balance pain and anger, you know, optimism and outrage. How do we deal with it?
FIGUERES: What we cannot do is turn our back to reality. Science is screaming from the rooftops about the fact that there is an exponential
curve of damage that we’re now seeing that could not have been foreseen 10 years ago. So, first we have to face that, which is the reality that we are
in, and be courageous enough to say that is the reality.
But then the question is, what do we do about that? You have, of course, the choice of disappearing under your bed, pulling the blankets over and
saying, then I give up because this is more than I can do. That is a choice. I don’t think it’s a responsible choice.
For me, because we have that challenge in front of us, I think the only responsible choice is to say, therefore, I am now going to give it
absolutely my maximum. That is the only choice that I think is responsible for all of us who are here at this critical point, Christiane. Because two
generations from now, or even one, they will not have the opportunity to turn this around. It will be too late.
This generation that is sitting now at the decision table, this is the generation that has the opportunity, hence the responsibility to turn this
around.
AMANPOUR: And finally, you have labeled COP30 as a milestone, not a destination. What does that mean?
FIGUERES: Actually, it’s not different from any other COP. I think we unfortunately think that every COP is the final destination, and anything
that doesn’t happen, then it’s not going to happen. The fact is, we have annual COPs, and it was designed to build that every COP can take the
results of the previous COP and put another brick in the efforts.
So, yes, COP30 is very important, and we will have COP31, and we are not going to give up until we actually address climate change.
AMANPOUR: Certainly, as long as you’re there, nobody’s going to give up. Christiana Figueres, thank you so much.
FIGUERES: Thank you, Christiane.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GOLODRYGA: Later in the program, can art improve our health? Art historian and broadcaster Katy Hessel joins me to discuss how just a few minutes of
quiet reflection can have a radical impact on the way we live.
Now, in the age of social media, doom scrolling and burnout, could art be the answer to bring us back some peace? A new study by King’s
College London shows that standing in front of a work of art not only lifts our spirits, it also physically calms our bodies and boosts our health.
Katy Hessel is an art historian, curator, and broadcaster who has spent her career making art more accessible and more inclusive. Now, her new project,
“How to Live an Artful Life,” looks at how we can all find ways to incorporate art into our lives, even if just for a few minutes a day.
Katy, thanks so much for joining us. Your new book, “How to Live an Artful Life,” is such an original idea, really an almanac with a page for every
day of the year. How did that idea come together?
KATY HESSEL, AUTHOR, “HOW TO LIVE AN ARTFUL LIFE”: Well, I’ve been interviewing artists for the last 10 years, and, you know, I’ve interviewed
hundreds. After every single interview, I note down what I’ve learned, what they’ve taught me, with little quotes. And I’ve kept all of these quotes
close to me, and I wanted to do something with that. And so, I thought, why not create a book that gives, a quote, wisdom, encouragement prompts for
every single day of the year?
And I love this idea that you can have a book that is almost like a companion that you have on your desk or your bedside table, and you can
kind of just go to for a bit of encouragement and to feel inspired, and why creativity matters.
GOLODRYGA: And it’s something to look forward to every day, right? Perhaps a new mantra to live the day by. What does it mean to live artfully to you?
HESSEL: I think it means to notice. You know, that’s what artists do. Artists get us to notice something. They expand our sense of beauty. They
expand our sense of the world. You know, when we go to a museum, we are looking at a perspective of an individual. We’re looking at how they saw
the world. And so, in a way, what it means to live artfully is to just have that in your life. Perhaps they’ll teach you how to look slowly or notice
nature or see something precious.
You know, artists are amazing at seeing the potential in something. You know, I think about a sculptor like Ruth Asawa, who works with wire.
Creates this amazing kind of bulbous interlocking sculptures. And, you know, all of that is just using a bit of wire, but she makes it into
something else. Similarly, writers with words. Everyone begins with a blank page or a blank canvas. The task is to just go for it. And so, I think
artists can teach us all sorts of things.
GOLODRYGA: And they clearly have taught you a lot throughout your career that you’re now hoping to share with readers. Each month of this book has
its own theme. January is “How to Start.” July is “Freedom.” I love that one. November is “Memory.” How did you decide on these individual months
with their own themes?
HESSEL: So, I mean, I always — I often think about the year as a sort of clock. And I love this idea of creating a story out of the year. And so,
you know, this idea that January is all about where do ideas come from? But it’s not quite sort of May, which is how to see the new. It’s not sort of
these ideas that are already actioned, it’s saying, OK, well, let’s seek these out first and foremost. The days are still dark. They’re still long.
But we can use this time for sort of that invisible growth in a way.
February, of course, is all about love and passion. And whether it’s our kind of love for other people, our love for art, our sort of love for the
different mediums as well. And also, kind of how art can be a sort of source of companionship, how it can be a sort of friendship. November, of
course, is all about remembering and memory. And December, it’s about joy. And, you know, I think that’s what art can do.
And I also love September as well, it’s a — it takes the theme of time. And that’s that classic kind of back to school feeling where, you know,
you’re like, oh, gosh, you know, suddenly you feel like, you know, should I be doing all these things? Am I doing everything right time? But actually,
what artists do is they remind us that time is not linear. Actually, it would be so boring if we did everything at the same time together. And
actually, to embrace all these different things that are happening to us at different stages of our life.
And then, of course, August is beauty, because August is one of those strange months. It’s like the Sunday of months. It’s like sort of hanging
at the top of a Ferris wheel. You don’t quite know what to do with it. You have so much time in a way it sort of stretches and it condenses. And so,
it’s sort of all these different things about how to see the world in a more beautiful way.
GOLODRYGA: And the book, I have to say, almost feels therapeutic. It’s as if you’re asking readers reflective questions and offering some advice to
them as well. Was that the intent?
HESSEL: Yes, absolutely. I mean, you know, you can sort of you can build this book as an art book or you can sort of put it in the, you know, smart
thinking or the or the sort of wellness or self-help sections. I mean, you know, art has done so much for me in my life. And really, this book is for
everyone.
And what I’ve done is with each quote, I respond to it with a kind of encouragement, an encouragement, a reflection or a prompt as a way to sort
of reflect it back to my reader. And also, you know, you could be an accountant, a hairdresser, a teacher, an artist, and you can still feel
like these words can mean to you. They can they can touch you or speak to you in some way.
GOLODRYGA: And speaking to how it can be personalized each and every day. Let’s look at your birthday entry, which happens to be February 5th. You
quote Frida Kahlo. Can you please do us the honor of reading it for us?
HESSEL: Yes, absolutely. Fifth of February. But remember to bring the lightness in. Frida Kahlo says, there is nothing more precious than
laughter. It is strength to laugh and lose oneself to be light.
GOLODRYGA: Love it. How much thought went into that specific quote and what does it represent for you as you mark it on your birthday?
HESSEL: I think, you know, I don’t necessarily tell people it’s my birthday, but I had to give myself a great one. So, I chose Frida Kahlo.
And, you know, we’ve spoken a lot about in the book so far about, you know, these long days, you know, the end of January, the beginning of February is
a really tough time. We’ve just had the kind of joys of Christmas, the excitement and the celebration. Now, we kind of have to get through that
year.
And, you know, and so what it is, it’s about remembering that everything can be light as well. It’s about looking for that lightness, you know, in
times of whatever you’re going through. Try and bring some of that lightness in because it will always make you feel better.
GOLODRYGA: You also mark other key dates. For example, International Women’s Day, you feature the artist Artemisia Gentileschi and her work
“Judith Slaying Holofernes.” I hope I’m pronouncing that correctly. It’s a violent, powerful image for those that aren’t familiar with the artist. She
is a 17th century Italian Baroque painter. Why did you choose her and why did you choose this specific work?
HESSEL: I mean, Artemisia Gentileschi is one of my heroes. She told those famous biblical stories from a female perspective and she shows that there
were women fighting for change in the 1600s just like we are now. Times have not changed that much. And I love this quote from her. She says, I
will show your illustrious lordship what a woman can do. She wrote that in a letter in the 1630s.
And I love this idea that we can learn from a woman who was around 400 years ago that we can do what we want and to have that strength. You know,
what I want to do for my reader in this book is encourage them to go out there, to make something, to see the world, to live in it and to show them
that they can do it as well.
And for that image, I mean, it’s just such an iconic image. I mean, it’s quite sort of it always gets a reaction. But it’s of the famous biblical
heroine, Judith, and she’s slaying Holofernes. And, you know, she’s doing it with such kind of conviction. But she’s also kind of showing the power
of sisterhood in lots of ways. But also it’s just — you know, to know that people were fighting that good fight 400 years ago.
GOLODRYGA: And you highlight other female artists as well. You include Tracey Emin’s line, I’m not going to stop making work. The page is called
“Keep Making.” What does that quote mean for you? I mean, it really does seem to send an inspiring message to keep doing what you enjoy doing, that
what keeps you going.
HESSEL: It does. I mean, it’s interesting. You know, I was — on every page, I include a little biography of all the artists as well. And the
amount of artists who, you know, survived till sort of over 100 years old is honestly remarkable. But I think that quote is about keep on doing it.
You know, perhaps culture and society will have to catch up with you. But keep going because consistency and persistence is key.
And, you know, Tracey Emin in that quote really talks about this idea that, you know, in this world where especially certain groups, for example, women
are going to be disadvantaged depending on what’s going on in the world, we have to shout even louder and champion these voices.
You know, I love this quote from Hilton Als, the fantastic New Yorker, theocratic, who talks about this idea that if you have language, share it.
Why wouldn’t you? The world is so much greater if all of us embrace it.
GOLODRYGA: And you — we talked about Tracey Emin there. I know you also interviewed her for your podcast as well. We should note the podcast is
called “The Great Women Artists” podcast. What about her resonates to you? And tell our viewers a little bit more about her.
HESSEL: Oh, my goodness. I mean, you know, Tracey Emin, she is a painter. She is a sculptor. She works in all different mediums, film, video,
conceptual work. She shows it how it is. Tracey Emin is a truth teller through her art. And, you know, I say, and I’ve got a great line from Paul
Rego’s son who’s told me that his mother once told him that an artist is someone who goes to a place that no one’s ever been before, but brings back
something that you instantly recognize. And that’s what Tracey Emin’s work does for me.
You know, I look at her work “The Bed” or something from the 1990s, and it shows us a kind of record of what people go through. It shows us the truth.
We look at her paintings. She does something kind of visceral on the canvas that you can’t help but react to it. And I just think, you know, she’s
inspiring. You know, not only is she an artist, but she’s opened her own art school in Margate. She gives people free art education. And I think
she’s really changing the needle. She’s making art more accessible, more exciting, but also, she’s raising new artists.
GOLODRYGA: I’m looking at a photo right now, a portrait that’s quite moving. And it is by Mary Husted. She’s a British artist. She’s based in
South Wales. And in 1962, at the age of 17, she was forced to give up her baby because she wasn’t married. And then she was allowed 10 days with her
son, baby Luke. And she sketched him every single day. You don’t have to be a mother to just imagine the emotions and the trauma that those 10 days
were for her. And yet, she took the time to memorialize her own child through this work. Tell us a little bit about Mary.
HESSEL: I mean, this story is unbelievable. She’d sketch baby Luke for every single day for 10 days because she was only allowed that time with
him. She always kept these sketches close to her. She went on to have three more children. And then she took to going back to art after her last child
had grown up and left home.
And she made this work called “Dreams, Oracles and Icons.” And it actually entered the Women’s Art Collection, which is at Murray Edwards College in
Cambridge. And, you know, she didn’t want to part with it but it was very emotional for her. And it’s of this — you know, this — it’s always of
this mother kind of setting this bird free in this kind of womb-like form.
And in 2007, adoption laws changed and Luke could now look up the name of his mother. And when he did so, thanks to the internet, that work came up.
And mother and son were reunited. And, you know, she tells me this thing that, you know, love and yearning drove these works.
And actually, if you make something, you know, by — not just taking a picture on your camera of your newborn baby or whatever it is, but if you
really take the time to look and sketch, you know, love can build those lines. And you can sort of remember the muscle memory of that forever. You
can remember something so much deeper and long-lasting.
GOLODRYGA: I get chills just listening to you tell that story of how Luke ultimately was reunited with his mother. And if one has to ask whether she
loved him or was pained by having to separate with him, just look at these sketches that she made of him for 10 days, those 10 precious days that she
had with him as a newborn.
You’ve also written about art’s healing power. And it looks like there’s more to it than just your own perspective. There are studies that suggest
that art can be therapeutic and lower stress. It is clearly a passion of yours, but can you talk about why you think this could be something shared
by everyone, basically, to not only fall in love with art, but to use it as their own internal therapy?
HESSEL: I mean, you know, there are so many ways in which you can use it. You know, we’re so lucky in the U.K., museums are free. And so, anyone can
go into any museum across the country and they can just look at one artwork, they can look at two artworks, and they can just kind of invite
stillness into their life. They can leave everything at home and they can just focus for a moment on this painting. And they might learn something
about the painter or the work that they’re looking at, but they also might learn something about themselves. And I think what art does, it invites
space for reflection.
Similarly, you know, we all have access to the internet. We can look artworks up and we can debate them with people. We can say, you know, what
do you think about that? And actually, there’s a great quote on March the 6th from Jerry Saltz, the great New York art critic, who says, you know,
always when you’re in a gallery or museum, turn to the person next to you and ask them what they think.
But that could also apply to anything in life. You know, always ask people what they think, because you never know what conversation it might ignite
or spark. And again, in this time — in this idea — with this idea of art as healing, art can only invite conversation and community. And I think
everyone, everyone can do that.
GOLODRYGA: Where did your passion for art come from? How did it develop?
HESSEL: I think it developed from when I was a child. I grew up in London and, you know, I was six years old when the Tate Modern opened. And this is
a museum that has — is home to this extraordinary gallery called the Turbine Hall. And, you know, growing up in the early 2000s in London, as a
child, you just couldn’t help but be struck by the Turbine Hall. It’s sort of — you know, it’s absolutely vast. It was a form of power station.
And, you know, the likes of Rachel Whiteread would fill it with boxes or Oliver Elias and Sun Project or, you know, all these incredible artists
would just create the most sort of mind-blowing and expanding artworks. And I think that you just can’t help but be in awe of that. I — also, my elder
sister was a huge art lover. And sort of as a youngest child, you always just do whatever your siblings do and copy them. And it’s just kind of
continued, I guess.
GOLODRYGA: I mean, you just exude passion for the genre. And it is fascinating to watch. And I think for those who might find art a bit
intimidating, it’s also quite welcoming from the way you tell it, whether it’s through your podcast, through your books, your Instagram account. I
mean, you go back 10 years, you first started the Instagram account, the Great Women Artists, and you called it frustrating. At an art fair, when
you realized there wasn’t a single female artist showing, you realized you couldn’t name 20 female artists yourself, thus was born this Instagram
account.
And then in 2022, you wrote the book, “The Story of Art Without Men.” Now, you’re writing a children’s book. Just talk about that evolution.
HESSEL: I mean, it’s just extraordinary. I mean, you know, 10 years ago, I would never dream of the fact that I could have a book deal or a newspaper
column or anything. And, you know, I started the Instagram as a way to, you know, not only educate myself, but also share my findings with people who
want to come along the way. And, you know, I began with zero Instagram followers. It now has hundreds of thousands. But it means that people are
hungry for these subjects.
And I always think use whatever you can in your vicinity to learn about something, but also invite others along with you. And, you know, as for the
books, it’s just been a dream. You know, “The Story of Art Without Men” has taken me to five continents and people are hungry for these stories. I
think people are hungry for different perspectives. And, you know, they want to know about these people who came before us and who, you know, saw
the world and did something to hold up a mirror back to it.
And, you know, with the children’s book, which is coming out in March, I mean, you know, always when you’re thinking about vision and, you know, if
you want to actually ignite change, start with those who are much younger than you and get them involved as early as possible.
You know, and in the children’s book, I give them a little art historians toolbox and I say, you know, different things to ask when you’re in front
of an artwork and also just to say that my findings on art and my opinions on art are going to be no different from theirs. And to say that, you know,
if you’re interested in literature or English, you know, you might find a painting of your favorite author or if you’re interested in science, you
know, there’ll be art about technology or the environment. And so, really, it’s art, it can be absolutely for everyone.
GOLODRYGA: And it’s always more effective when you start with the younger generations as well. They’re also curious and they’re also eager to learn
more. Katy, this has been a delight. Congratulations on all of your success. Thank you so much for taking the time to join us.
HESSEL: Thank you so much.
GOLODRYGA: Stay with CNN. We’ll be right back after the break.
GOLODRYGA: Now, to new sound for a multi-Grammy winning artist. Jacob Collier has been described as a colorful Mozart of Gen Z, blending musical
genres from R&B to jazz. Well now in his new album, The “Light for Days,” he’s stripping it all back. Collier describes it as the scruffiest album
he’s ever made, written in just four days using the five-string guitar.
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GOLODRYGA: Collier told our Hari Sreenivasan about his inspiration for the project.
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HARI SREENIVASAN, INTERNATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Bianna, thanks. Jacob Collier, thanks so much for joining us. Your most recent album, “The Light
for Days,” took you only four days to record, and you used basically just one instrument. Why do this, and also what’s behind the title?
JACON COLLIER, GRAMMY-AWARD WINNING MUSICIAN AND SONGWRITER: Yes, well thank you so much for having me. This album was a drastic change from
previous albums that I’ve made. I’ve spent the last seven years mostly creating four radically collaborative albums, which are sort of explosively
varied and multi-layered and sort of extravagant creatively.
And I wanted a change. And so, I imposed these two limitations. One being the one instrument, a five-string guitar, and the second being four days,
which is the amount of time I had to make the album. I was kicking off my tour in Asia back in May, and I had this little magical window, and I
thought, well what if I make a whole album within this window of time? So, that’s what I did.
And the title, “The Light for Days,” is really existent for three reasons. One is it’s a lyric in one of the songs, which is a song called Icarus by a
band called The Staves, and there’s this lovely line, I have not seen the light for days, which I think is how many of us are feeling right now.
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COLLIER: So, I thought, that feels like a nice title for the record. Secondly, it contains four days in it, which is just a ticklish thing from
my perspective. And third, I think we all need light in our days. And so, this was a record that really provided a sense of calm for me, a sense of
peace, and something I was really excited to share with the world.
SREENIVASAN: So, you have some covers from some well-known names, James Taylor, The Beatles, The Staves, to name a few. And then you also come up
with your own music, right? So, I wonder, I mean, this is kind of maybe a strange question, but how is a song born in the mind of Jacob Collier?
Well, what is it? Is it the lyrics that come first? Is it the tune? Well, how do you create something?
COLLIER: Yes, it’s a beautiful question. And I have to say, there’s not one way. I think of music making a bit like world building, you know,
you’re building something that feels believable with proportions and warmth and humanity and things.
The thing with this particular album is that I had to work quick. So, I had to sort of be quite — I had to be quite decisive with my ideas. I’m the
kind of person who can happily sort of agonize over certain kinds of creative decisions at times. So, it was really refreshing for me to sort of
jump in and say, look, whatever the first idea is, that’s what I have to go with.
And so, it was a combination of the above, you know, sometimes it’s a word, sometimes it’s a chord or a sound. But often it’s a sort of mood or a space
that I’m trying to build a little world that correctly and accurately describes what that feels like for me.
SREENIVASAN: OK. I know it’s like picking between your children to describe a favorite. So, I want you to maybe help our audience understand a
bit more about one of the tracks. One that caught my eye was a music video that you did with — it said no visual effects. So, that means real
butterflies were on your face, you’re standing in some light storm in a jungle. Tell me about the song “Heaven.”
COLLIER: That’s probably the most ticklish experience I’ve ever had in my whole life. Really bizarre and really interesting. But “Heaven
(Butterflies) is the second song on the album. And we actually shot a different video for each song the album in a different location. So, I’ve
been touring all year. And I ended up in Costa Rica, on the final day of the tour, about three or four weeks ago, the tour that was in that region
of the world.
And, yes, we ended up in this in this butterfly kind of zone where they have all these butterflies that that just want to want to play like they’re
really delighted by people being around.
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COLLIER: So, I was really thrilled and I had the song called literally called “Heaven (Butterflies.)” So, yes, the song is a really — it’s very
warm, very, very warm song. Lots of lots of voices in the background and guitars in the background. But yes, that particular experience for me was
really kind of like a one of one.
SREENIVASAN: Because you’ve done so many different parts of music, you’ve arranged music, you’ve rearranged music that we might all be familiar with
you. You’ve used your own voice as an instrument, you play so many instruments. And, you know, I read that you’ve described yourself at times
as an introvert. And so, I wonder, is there something that’s less enjoyable, more enjoyable for you to do? Is some part of the process, do
you feel more at home and comfortable in it? And it’s also, you know, explain being an introvert and still being somebody who literally goes out
on stage every night and in front of thousands of people?
COLLIER: Yes, yes, it’s a great question. I’m comfortable with people. I enjoy people. But I think that I get most of my creative energy from being
alone. I think we’re all on a spectrum there. And so, I totally — I’m utterly in love with tour. I just love it so much. I love the feeling of
being on stage and feeling of hearing the audience saying and all these things. But I also know how important it is for me just as an artist in
person to come back to my ultimate cave of self and kind of find those ways of recharging.
So, you know, when I was when I was a small child, I never really had big dreams of touring and being a famous musician, anything like that. I just
really wanted to make the most compelling music that I could. And I just loved music to the end of the earth.
So, I kind of still feel like that. I feel like being able to tour and play these shows and collaborate with people is a huge, huge bonus to a process
that would already be happening, which is me making things that I care for and just trying to learn about how life of musical works, you know.
SREENIVASAN: You know, for people who might not be familiar with your work, it sort of took on a whole different dimension about a dozen years
ago where you posted a video on YouTube of you basically doing every part of an amazing Stevie Wonder song by yourself.
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SREENIVASAN: So, you post that video. What happens next?
COLLIER: Well, I have a magical little room in my in my home in London, my family, my family home, my child’s home, where I recorded a lot of music as
a child. And I yes, layered lots of instruments on top of other instruments and voices of other voices. And so, it was this one-man band figure.
And then one day I got an e-mail from Quincy Jones. And this was a moment that absolutely blew my mind. And I was distinctly flabbergasted at the
sort of friendship that unfolded thereafter with the great man. You know, there’s such an amazing sense that he has this access to humanity and
infinity and joy. But he’s also just one of my absolute greatest heroes. And he became a bit of a Godfather mentor type figure for me.
We lost the great man last year. And so, now every note that I play on stage or record in the studio feels like it has the essence of Quincy
within, you know.
SREENIVASAN: Tell our audience a little bit about what you do at your shows. I mean, there’s so many examples online of you really just somehow
turning it could be 100 people, it could be 100,000 people into choir. How does how does that happen?
COLLIER: Yes. Well, the idea with the audience choir is that, you know, everyone, everyone is a musician, as long as they’re participating. The,
you know, permission is more important than skill, first of all. But second of all, that it’s possible to create a sort of musical context for people
where they intuitively know where to move their note up and down.
So, the way the audience choir works is I’ll sort of — I’ll have these people here and I’ll divide them sometimes I’ll divide them into different
groups. So, say three groups, and I’ll give three different notes as starting points. And then rather than singing or telling them what to do, I
just move my hands up and down and watch that section. And they kind of move up and down accordingly.
And what happens is this really majestic kind of emotional, it’s like a huge organ of people like a massive, massive musical instrument, that’s
kind of like 10,000 pixels long or something.
SREENIVASAN: I think it’s at the Kennedy Center, and you started improvising with the orchestra. And at that moment, I was just like, is his
brain hearing everything already? I mean, do you already have the music in your brain, and you’re just moving the clarinets to do what you want, or
are you — is your brain shifting and creating something new, knowing that this is the sound that this tuba is going to make? And this is this? I
don’t I don’t know, it was just like — I didn’t — you know, I’m really trying to map your brain here. Sorry.
COLLIER: Yes. Well, I think it depends on the style of improvisation. Sometimes I think that it does help to go with a picture in your head. So,
with that particular example, when I improvised the orchestra with the NSO, that was something right. I did have somewhat a plan of what I was going to
do with the instruments, and I could hear it all in my head. And I just was trying to activate on it and get it the best I could.
But as I iterated on my idea, which was a challenge that was set to me by a friend of mine, he said, why don’t you just try making something the
orchestra with no plan? But as I went, you know, you realize all certain things don’t land as you’re expecting them to land, you know, I don’t play
all these instruments. So, I think the fun thing there was going through the process and iterating and changing my mind. Oh, actually, you know
what, no, no, that’s I think, I think it’s best if you stay on a G and rather go to the F, I think the G is better, you know, and I think that
people — again, people enjoy watching me not know what I’m doing as much as they enjoy watching me know what I’m doing. And I’m kind of comfortable
in both spaces at this point enough to follow my nose and hopefully find something of interest.
SREENIVASAN: I wonder if you think about where we are right now, with where music is and how people discover music, right? On the one hand, the
platforms like YouTube have given you a phenomenal opportunity, and lots and lots of other musicians and creative artists have been given these
opportunities and been discovered, so to speak, right?
And at the same time, the sort of economic structure doesn’t necessarily seem to value their creative work. You hear about musicians that have to
have millions and millions and hundreds of millions of views to really try to make a living or they have to go out on the road. And I wonder if, you
know, as a society, we’re not necessarily supporting the creative community as much as we could, or maybe even did?
COLLIER: I couldn’t agree more. It doesn’t have to be like this. I think there are so many ways of structuring a society where the creative people
are valued. I think it comes down to people in this sort of positions of high power, not actually recognizing how foundationally crucial the arts
are to a functional world.
You know, you’ve got so many people in the world right now who are looking for purpose, who are looking for answers to big, unanswerable questions.
You’ve got people who are just like looking for perspectives, looking for learning about the world and people who want to feel.
And the reality in the world today is, there are a lot of people who would like us to feel so many different kinds of things. And you can’t really
tell someone what to feel, but what you can do is you can show someone what to feel. What the arts do is they give you a chance to feel things that you
wouldn’t otherwise feel if you were living in, quote/unquote, “reality” all of the time.
If you step into this other space, there’s such a huge benefit to the way that we feel as people in growing and in changing and in evolving. And we
really, really need our artists and our creatives and our musicians like we’ve never done before.
So, I think it does come down to that simple kind of valuation, like how much do we want people to spend their time making things in these ways? And
to me, there’s no more important thing I think to do right now other than to make things, you know, it feels like a way of incorporating the world, a
way of expressing the world, a way of building community and connection. I’m just — I’m really hoping that we’re moving towards a bit of a moment
of change in society where we’re recognizing how crucial it is for the artists to be able to not just survive, but actually to thrive too.
SREENIVASAN: One of the other big changes kind of on the horizon right now is what artificial intelligence is doing and how it’s kind of transforming
lots of little parts of our lives. A lot of these models have been trained on the work and the intellectual property and creative juices, so to speak,
of so many millions of people, right? So, as a creator, I mean, how do you think about what this technology is doing? Do you use it as a tool? Do you
think about it?
COLLIER: Yes. It’s a really unprecedented thing to have access to, a thing of such extraordinary competence that it kind of — that the mind boggles.
The interesting thing about art, which I’m coming to realize, is that competence doesn’t mean something’s good, or meaningful. And I’ve got to
say, over the last three years, A.I. has got more and more competent, and I’ve got less and less inspired by it, because nowadays, it’s everything’s
too realistic to be real, you know, which is really a weird commodity.
You know, I think of the artist’s role in society to ask questions, we’re question askers, we’re not answer providers, we ask questions. Now, A.I. is
primarily accessed through prompts, through asking questions. So, in a sense, I think artists are uniquely positioned to make meaningful things
using whatever tools we have. A.I. is one such tool.
I think that, you know, it takes nowadays a pretty interesting question to get an interesting answer, because your usual answer is super, kind of down
the line, very regimented and predictable. Artists thrive in the unpredictable, I think that humans thrive in the unpredictable. And I
actually think we might be entering into a sort of unpredictability revolution, somewhat. Because I think that in an algorithmic world, we’re
free when we can’t be predicted. And I think this is a feeling that artists can remind us of, is of being untethered to structures and ways of
thinking.
So, I also think it’s dangerous in its ways. I mean, you mentioned the ownership problem with regard to training data, which is really gnarly for
musicians. It’s so hard to kind of define that problem and it’s so hard to stop it, given how those models work, and how, you know, the more you feed
them, the more capacious they become.
So, there are a number of issues that I perceive, but I do have faith in the imperfections of people being our sort of saving grace, and how I think
that an imperfect person will always need another imperfect person to relate to. And if the role of an artist is to be related to and to build
worlds you can trust, I think that role will always have a place.
SREENIVASAN: All right. Jacob Collier, thanks so much for your music and for your time.
COLLIER: Thank you, sir.
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GOLODRYGA: And that is it for now. If you ever miss our show, you can find the latest episode shortly after it airs on our podcast. And remember, you
can always catch us online, on our website, and all-over social media. Thanks so much for watching, and goodbye from New York.