“Get Honest or Die Lying:” Charlamagne tha God on Why Small Talk Sucks

CHRISTIANE AMANPOUR, CHIEF INTERNATIONAL ANCHOR: And our next guest is using his platform to advocate for greater awareness of domestic violence, following the shocking video of rapper Sean Diddy Coombs assaulting his then girlfriend, Cassie Ventura. Charlamagne tha God is a television host, author and co-host of the influential radio show, “The Breakfast Club.” He’s famed for his candid and often provocative interviews with celebrities and politicians and cultural figures. His new book is “Get Honest or Die Lying: Why Small Talk Sucks.” And Charlemagne joins Michel Martin to explain why he’s encouraging the world to embrace more meaningful conversation.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Thanks, Christiane. Charlemagne tha God, thank you so much for joining us once again.

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD, AUTHOR, “GET HONEST OR DIE LYING: WHY SMALL TALKS SUCKS” AND CO-HOST, THE BREAKFAST CLUB, IHEARTRADIO: Thank you for having me. How are you?

MARTIN: I’m good. So, look, most people know you as the co-host of “The Breakfast Club,” super-popular radio show. You’ve become an important voice as a political commentator. You’ve already written a couple of books, but this one is different. As you say in the book, your previous books were about yourself. But this one is about us, or the audience, as I guess I would put it. Why the change? What did you think was missing? What are you trying to say?

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: Well, you know, my first books were very personal to me. You know, myself — the books that I like to read a lot of times are usually in the self-help game. And, you know, they’re the Robert Greenes, the Malcolm Gladwells, you know, the Ryan Holidays. But, you know, those individuals, they use a lot of historical context to back up a lot of their, you know beliefs or laws. You know, in the case of Robert Greene, I’m not that smart. So, you know, my historical context comes from me and, you know, my life. But with this book, it was more so — not just things about me, but more so observations about the world at large, observations about, you know, society, you know, whether it’s, you know, mental health, which I’m a big mental health advocate or, you know, politics or social media, just all of these things that I feel like are ruining our critical thinking skills and causing us to make a lot of micros macros. And I don’t know how sustainable that is for us.

MARTIN: I just wondered, was there some sort of a triggering event that said to you, like, I really need to speak on this?

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: I think just observing the world for the last six years, you know, and then observing the world with a lot more clarity, you know, because of therapy, because of things like meditation, because of, you know, plant-based medicine, just observing the world with a lot more clarity. And disconnecting, right? Like, when you’re disconnected from something, when you choose to make the conscious decision to say, man, I see where this social media stuff is taking us, and I don’t really want to be a part of it like that. So, I’m not — I haven’t been on Twitter since 2018. You go on my Twitter, it’s just a bunch of promo stuff, you know, I don’t go on TikTok. So, for me, it was just watching how social media was literally taking over people’s minds, their brains. Like I was watching people get online and not even know what to think or feel about something until they saw whatever the mass consensus was on social media. And that was scary to me. So, you know, it’s kind of like when I named the book “Get Honest or Die Lying,” of course, that’s the play of, you know, one of the greatest hip hop albums of all time, you know, 50 Cent. But it was also, I went away on this spiritual retreat earlier this year. And one of the things that came up for me was stop lying to yourself and stop volunteering those lies to other people. And when I look at social media now, I see so many people lying to themselves, and they’re lying to themselves, and they’re volunteering these lies to others. They’re voluntarily — they’re willingly just projecting all of these lies onto other people. And, once again, I just don’t know how sustainable that is, if, if it’s sustainable at all, and it’s scary.

MARTIN: One of the things that you’ve complained about is that the nuance of what you’re trying to say is lost, right? Is that people feel, I assume, because you’re an African-American man, that you lean left. But if you say something that leans right, or that seems to lean right, the conservative media eats it up. But if you say something that they don’t agree with, then they’re not interested. But one of the things that you’ve said in this election cycle is you don’t want to endorse anybody. You’re saying you’re going to vote, but you’re not going to endorse anybody. And that’s been — caused a lot of hubbub. I’m just not sure, how do you recapture the nuance? How do you recapture the nuance of what you’re trying to say and to be heard in your totality?

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: Being out on this book tour the past week and, you know, doing a lot of the different press that I do, everybody has narratives that they want to push. I feel like some just do it better than others. I feel like the rights has a narrative that they stick to and they don’t care about anything else you’re talking about. If they can get one thing that, you know helps push whatever narrative it is, and right now, you know, for the last few months, it’s been black people are not really in love with President Biden, you know, the numbers for Donald Trump are starting to rise in regard to the black voter, which I think is a little bit overstated, but anything that can help with that narrative, they’ll go on with. So, if Charlamagne says, Joe Biden is uninspiring candidate with no main character energy, that’s the headline. Forget you all saying Donald Trump is a threat to democracy, or Donald Trump tried to — you know, he said we should suspend the constitution, or, you know, overthrow the results of an election, forget all of that. We’re going to stick to our narrative. That’s what, you know, the right does. The left, all they do is pay attention to the narrative that the right puts out there. So, they never ever create their own narrative. So, like, you know, I can go on a show like the view and they’ll ask me why I don’t want to endorse. And I can say all of these things about Trump and literally say, there’s only two choices. So, I’m clearly going to vote for the person who I think can preserve democracy. Instead of them simply saying, who that individual is, it’ll just keep pushing me, pushing me, pushing me to say it myself. And I just think that’s very strange. But what gives me hope is the people over this past week, I’ve done all of this diverse press, but I’ve also been at these book signings, talking to people. And that’s who I always get my information from. My information only comes from the people. The people who call into the radio station every morning. The people who I, you know, meet in the street, from South Carolina to New Jersey to L.A., I talk to, people. And when people tell me, they understand exactly what I’m saying. And not only do they understand, they feel what I’m saying, because if you look at the polls, it’s a quarter of the country feel the way that I do. They have unfavorable views about both candidates. So, when I meet these people who absolutely understand what it is that I’m saying, and they understand why I’m saying it, that’s what gives me hope. But I have zero faith in media.

MARTIN: You write that everybody is a social media influencer. And there’s not a day that goes by where they don’t feel like they have to share their thoughts with the world. The result is that we’re being besieged by a never-ending cascade of thoughts, opinions, rants, lectures, and reads. Say more about that. I mean, you know, as a person, you know, you’re a discussant yourself. You’re a person who kind of gets into the daily flow of conversation. So, say more about that. What is it that troubles you?

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: It’s not thoughtful, that it’s not sincere, that it’s a job for me. It’s something they feel they have to do just because they’ve created the space to do it. There’s a lot of monetization involved with it. You know, once you start your YouTube page, you know, once you start your social media platform, like you constantly want that engagement. So, yes, for me, it’s just that it’s not — it’s not thoughtful. It’s not coming from a good place. It’s not like an editorial that you would read back in the day, you know, in a magazine, you know, or, you know, in a newspaper like where there was actual stakes, like there was consequences to reporting the wrong thing. There was consequences to, you know, reporting false information. Nowadays, people are just making things up for clicks. And you know, nobody cares about the truth when the lie is more entertaining. And like, so now, it’s just like, yes, people are just doing anything, saying anything, writing anything, you know, just for the algorithm. And I don’t like that. I think that’s very dangerous. And it’s the old school part of me that wants people to have to deal with the consequences of their words, the same way I had to deal with the consequences of mine. And still have to deal with the consequences of mine now. And that’s everything from, you know, you can get sued, you can get a punch in the face, you can get fined by the FCC. You can get fired. Like there’s all of these different things that I had to deal with that makes me understand, you know, free speech ain’t free. And so, like, that’s why I want, you know, a lot of this generation to have to deal with that as well.

MARTIN: How do you, though, balance that with the fact that people still want to hear you talk nonsense about celebrities? I mean, they do. It’s entertaining for people. And also, sometimes people, it’s a distraction from the heaviness of the rest of their lives. I mean, so how do you balance that out?

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: I mean, it’s going to happen. It’s not like in the book, I’m saying, like, let’s cut all the small talk. I’m just saying, like, let’s minimize it, right? But also, one thing I’ve always tried to do, even when it comes to celebrities, I want to take it out of the individual and actually talk about the issue. Like, what is the broader issue that we can discuss? I feel like that’s usually the case with any celebrity story. Like, you can focus on the individual if you want. But there’s always an issue that I started to say underlined, but really, it’s not underlined. Like right now, when you look at a situation like, well, what’s happening with the Diddy and Cassie? Everybody wants to focus on the celebrity of it all and, you know, talk about, you know, who’s going to still be playing Diddy’s music and what company is not working with Diddy no more. But the issue should be domestic violence. The issue should be, you know, men really doing that real internal work on themselves so they deal with whatever hurt and pain and trauma they got in them and stop projecting that onto our women. The issue should be talking about the patriarchy. Because as long as men are in these positions where they’re at the top and women are supposedly underneath them, you’re going to always have these situations where men, you know, like I said, project that pain and hurt on something they think they own, but they don’t. But those are the conversations we should be having because long after Diddy and Cassidy is no longer in the news cycle, there’s going to be women all over this world, you know, being victims of the patriarchy. There’s going to be women all over this world being victims of some man who ain’t dealt with his hurt, and he’s projecting that onto somebody else. So, to me, that should be the conversation. Like, what was always the bigger issue? That’s what I’m — that’s why I named the book “Why Small Talk Sucks,” because we don’t focus on the macros the way we should.

MARTIN: And that speaks to sort of looping back to politics, because one of the things that you’ve said is one of the reasons that you don’t want to endorse this year is that you want people to start focusing on the issues as opposed to the personalities. There are those who argue that people who are sort of on the progressive left, or who just, let’s just say aren’t conservative, find it easier to be tougher on the Democrats because they’ll take it. You know, the Republicans will get up and walk out, or they’ll make you the issue, right, or they’ll get on your — a show so that they can joust with you, so that they can start, you know, a Twitter fight or whatever, an ex-fight. What do you say to that?

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: I don’t know if it’s that they would tolerate it, it’s just that that is the party that I voted in. If you’re a progressive, nine times out of 10 — I know nine times out of 10, if you’re a progressive, you voted in. So, if you see these people in — you know, if you put these people in a position of power and they’re not doing what they said they were going to do, you’re going to raise holy hell with them, as you should. Just like conservatives do with other conservatives. If there’s a conservative that isn’t falling in line with what they want, they’re going to shake them up. Like Donald Trump will have a million nicknames for that person by tonight if they don’t fall in line with what other Republicans want to do or if they are a conservative who goes against the grain, they get chastised, like they get almost exiled off the island. Like, I don’t have a problem with progressives, you know, challenging Democrats and liberals because, yes, I’d probably be — I’m more pissed off at them than I am conservative because I voted you in. I voted you in because you said you were going to do these things. And if these things aren’t being done, I got to hold your feet to the fire. I don’t have a problem with that.

MARTIN: Why do you think it is? You’ve said repeatedly that the Democrats are just doing a very poor job of communicating. Why do you think that is?

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: I just — I honestly think because they’re still moving like politicians and conservatives are moving just like regular everyday people. Conservatives have realized that really, truly nothing is a deal breaker anymore. You know, I remember Donald Trump said that during his first campaign, he’s like, I can go walk out. I think it was in the middle of the street and shoot somebody in the head and nobody would care. And everybody was like, oh, my God. See, the problem is everybody was too busy focused on what he actually said, and they were taking it literal as opposed to the — to what he was trying to say overall, the metaphor he was using, so to speak, was that ain’t nobody tripping off none of that no more, you know. So, if you’ve ever seen a great movie, which I love, “Bulworth,” starring Warren Beatty, that’s — Democrats need a Bulworth. Conservatives have their Bulworth in the name of Donald J. Trump. The difference with the conservatives and liberals is conservatives are more sincere about their lives and Democrats are about their truth. Democrats have truth that they could tell. They have real wins that, you know, they’ve put on the board over the last four years, but they’re just not able to communicate them. And when they do, they do it with their voice shaking. So, don’t nobody even really believe them. Meanwhile, you got these people over here lying through their teeth with conviction. So, folks believe it. And that’s why I watch both — I like to look at both sides. I’m going to watch Fox, I’m going to watch CNN, I’m going to watch MSNBC, because I love, especially when they’re all talking about one thing, but I love to see the different angles that they approach it from.

MARTIN: Before we let you go, how are you? I mean, you have been really open and very honest about your struggles with, you know, panic attacks and anxiety, and that’s why you’ve become a mental health advocate, as you say. You’re very open about your commitment to therapy and self-work. How are you?

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: Thank you for asking. This weekend was rough. I was having like some really, really, really bad panic attacks this weekend. Really, really bad, you know, bouts of depression this weekend.

MARTIN: I’m sorry.

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: Yes. It was one of those times. I had to have an emergency. I had to call my therapist on Sunday morning. Because it started hitting me Saturday night and I had to call my therapist Sunday morning to like really, you know, get some clarity about some things. And, you know, I actually wrote it down. That’s crazy you asked me that. But I wrote it down. And one of the things he said to me was anxiety comes with doing new things. It’s unhuman for it not to be. Anytime you put out a book. it’s like kind of like revealing a piece of flesh. Like it’s kind of like it’s a new piece of yourself. So, every book is different and every book is unique, but you’re sharing things with people. And I don’t know why, man, it just all hit me sad. It’s like, oh, my God, oh, my God, there’s a bunch of people reading my book right now. There’s a bunch of people reading my book. It’s almost like they — they’re peeking into your house, so to speak. And even though I’ve put out two private books before, “New York Times,” bestsellers, national bestsellers, all of that, I don’t know why this one just hit me a little bit different. And I feel like, you know, there’s probably a lot of new eyeballs on me as well. And the thing about imposter syndrome, it waits for those moments when that anxiety really is kicking in. And that little bit of depression pops in, a little bit of doubt. Soon as that little bit of doubt pops in, here comes the Mr. Imposter Syndrome, like, yes, yes, I’m waiting on you, big shot, you know? Oh, you thought you was popping. You thought you — like — and it’s just like you start going — your mind starts going all over the place. So, to answer your question, I’m doing a lot better right now in this moment than I was this weekend, but it’s still like — it’s still lingering a little bit.

MARTIN: Well, thank you for sharing that. I mean, I think every time you kind of open the door to your own life, I think you create space for other people to do the same. Well, Charlemagne tha God, thank you so much for talking with us once again.

CHARLAMAGNE THA GOD: Thank you for having me. Appreciate you.