Gov. DeWine on Springfield Fallout: Ohio Welcomes and Needs Legal Immigrants

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, ANCHOR: Well, as the race for the White House continues, so does the conversation about disinformation. Donald Trump recently made claims that the Biden administration is diverting aid from those affected by hurricanes. Only weeks after, he made false accusations about Haitian immigrants in the State of Ohio during the presidential debate. The state’s governor, Mike DeWine, has denied those claims and expressed support for Haitian migrants. He joins Walter Isaacson to discuss.

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WALTER ISAACSON, CO-HOST, AMANPOUR AND CO.: Thank you, Bianna. And Governor Mike DeWine, welcome to the show.

GOV. MIKE DEWINE (R-OH): Walter, good to be with you. Thank you very much.

ISAACSON: I want to talk about Springfield, Ohio, a place near and dear to your heart. You and your wife, Fran, have lived there your entire lives almost, or near there. And we had the situation where Donald Trump and then J. D. Vance, your home state senator, started talking about the Haitians eating pets and dogs, and you stepped in and said, no. The mayor says that’s not happening. You said it’s not happening. But I want to talk to you personally, since you’ve been very involved with the Haitian community and the revival of Springfield. Tell me how you feel about all this now.

DEWINE: Well, fortunately, I think that rhetoric has calmed down a little bit, and I hope it stays calmed down. You know, I had to defend Springfield. I had to defend my state. You know, people were not eating dogs or cats. And, you know, the Haitians who are here are employed. They came here to work. They want to work. They do a very, very good job if you talk to the employers. And they were very much needed to keep the economy moving.

ISAACSON: Well, wait. Why would Trump and Vance say that then? Did they not know that?

DEWINE: I — you know, I don’t know. I can’t guess. But it became, you know, so visible, and people heard it across the country, of course, during the debate, and then after that, that I just felt it was important to, you know, clarify what the facts are, and this was simply not true. These things they were saying was simply not true. And we face real challenges in Springfield. The Haitians have, you know, really contributed to the economy. They’ve helped in many, many ways. But when you put an additional 12,000, 15,000 people in a city of only 58,000 and do that over a three-year period of time or so, you know, you have some natural challenges that you face.

ISAACSON: When these not true things were said, it caused bomb threats. You had to close some of the schools. You had to put the state troopers there. I think the community colleges had to go on remote. Do you think some of those scares, some of them were probably foreign — you know, came from foreign instigators? But do you think some people were motivated by hearing Donald Trump say this about Haitians eating pets and that it caused — helped cause these problems to some extent?

DEWINE: Well, we saw a lot of these threats coming from outside the United States. And I think that anytime we have people and countries, who won’t name names, but you want to cause us problems. And I think when they see an opportunity they act. And that’s what they saw. They saw an opportunity.

ISAACSON: But I’m talking about the domestic people who did it. Do you think, in some ways, there’s some responsibility on Trump and Vance for helping sort of gin these people up?

DEWINE: Well, I just think everybody needs to cool their rhetoric and calm it down. You know, I can’t say why someone was motivated or why — what they did. But what’s happened now is we have not had that for the last 10 days, 12 days. And that’s a very, very good thing. You know, what motivates people domestically to make those calls or what motivates them overseas, I guess, we’ll never really know. But we reacted because we had to. You know, parents didn’t feel comfortable, teachers didn’t feel comfortable. So, we put — as you said, we put members of the Ohio State Highway Patrol directly into those schools and it worked. We were able to keep the schools open, which we thought was very, very important. And I think parents and students and everyone else felt — teachers felt much more comfortable because we did that.

ISAACSON: You know J. D. Vance quite well. You’re from the same state. You’ve worked with him quite a bit and even supported him. Have you talked to him on this?

DEWINE: No, no. I’m not talking about this. You know, I didn’t think, frankly, it would — that would do any good. I think —

ISAACSON: Wait, wait. Why wouldn’t it do any good?

DEWINE: Well, they kept talking about it. They kept talking about it, and didn’t stop talking about it. They finally did. But I think if you look at the bigger problem — the bigger — you want to put this maybe in context. We have not, in this country, been able to control the southern border. You know, I publicly said the Biden administration has not done what they should have done in regard to the southern border. But we’ve seen this for a long time for the problem of illegal immigrants has clouded and frankly, stopped us from doing anything constructively in regard to reform about legal immigrants. We, as a country, have a right to control who comes into this country, but we really have not had a good debate about that or discussion even about that for a long, long time. And I think it’s frankly the problem with the illegal kind of permeates every discussion and we never can get down to who should be in this country. For example, you know, the Haitians are here, they’re here legally. We have other people who face oppression or violence or great danger in their country who are also here legally. This is not something new though. I remember, you know, when I was in grade school, Hungary revolution, and the tanks came in from the Soviet Union and there were people who fled. We let them into the United States. We did the same thing when Castro came to power. And we wanted to help the people, the Cubans who were fleeing from Castro. We’ve done it throughout our history. So, there’s nothing really new about singling out people who are facing great oppression, great violence, great danger and saying, we’re going to let you come in into the United States.

ISAACSON: You and your wife have a personal interest in this. You’ve been to Haiti maybe 20 times, I think. You really care about the plight of people seeking asylum. Tell me how that has informed your response to this.

DEWINE: Well, I would hope that if the folks who came to Springfield were from some other country and fleeing oppression there, that my reaction would have been the same. I think it would have been. But you’re right, Fran and I have been to Haiti over 20 times. We work with a Catholic priest in Haiti who’s in a very, very poor section of Port-au-Prince, and he has about 5,000 students who go to school, and we’ve worked with him for many, many years, he just does the Lord’s work. He does amazing work. And so, I think it gives me a better perspective. You know, when you look at people who are coming from Haiti today there, there has not been really good health care, I guess, ever in Haiti. But in the last two years, it’s gotten a lot worse because what’s happened since the president of Haiti was murdered we’ve seen a lot of Haitian doctors who have just fled the country. So, the people who come to Springfield have not, you know, had the benefit of significant health care. And that, again, is one of the challenges that we’re addressing. The hospital is doing a great job. We have other clinics that are doing a great job and this is — it’s a process we’re working on.

ISAACSON: Donald Trump says if he’s elected, he’s going to get rid of this status for Haitians, which is that they’re here legally. He’s going to try to deport them all. Do you support that?

DEWINE: No, I would not be in favor of that. And I will tell you, if you waved a wand and every one of the Haitians that came to Springfield was gone, we would be — see a lot of our companies who would not have enough people to work. A lot of our companies who would go from two shifts down to one shift. So, a lot of the progress we’ve seen made in Springfield. And this is a — as you know, historically a manufacturing city, but a city beginning about 1970 that really started going down as far as the employment and down in population. We’ve seen a tremendous improvement of that in the last five, seven, 10 years where new companies have come in, companies that have been there, manufacturers have expanded. Springfield has a lot of strategic advantages. It’s very close to Columbus, 45 minutes from Columbus, which is the fastest growing — one of the fastest growing cities in the country. We’re close to right Patterson Air Force Base, which employs a huge civilian population, It’s gone from 19,000 to about 38,000 in the last 10 years. So, this area of the state is booming. And Ohio is moving forward. So, if you would instantly take those Haitians out, who go to work every single day and want to work, and want to work very, very hard, a lot of those companies would not be able to do what they’re doing, and it would certainly hurt us.

ISAACSON: In 2019, you signed a law that prohibits abortion after the six weeks of pregnancy, before many women know that they’re pregnant, and it contains no exceptions for the victims of rape or incest. A judge later temporarily blocked that ban, leaving abortion legal up to 22 weeks. And then, last year, the voters of your state, by a pretty large majority, 57 percent, opted to enshrine abortion rights into the state’s constitution. How do you see this playing out for Republicans and the electorate now?

DEWINE: Well, to me, this is a — you know, this is a very important thing. I mean, I am pro-life, which means that I believe we have an obligation to protect human life. It’s what I tried to do during COVID. It’s what I’ve tried to do in expanding care in Ohio for pregnant mothers who may be poor, who may not have access to doctors. You know, we put a lot of focus on that. It’s very, very important and protecting life. And so, I accept what the vote was of the people of the State of Ohio. That is not how I voted. And you know, my wife, Fran, I did a TV ad against that because we felt so very, very strongly about it. But our job today, and I remind my team every day, is to continue to try to create a situation where someone, a mom, is pregnant, that she legitimately does have options and that we get her the help that she needs and allow her then to make her decision. But we obviously would encourage her to have that child, have that baby.

ISAACSON: One of the other hot button issues that’s come up is transgender rights. And there was a bill that the Republican legislature in Ohio passed banning any gender affirming care for kids who were transgender. And then you vetoed that, thinking, I assume, that we have to be more understanding and try to figure out how to deal with this. Your veto gets overridden. How would you talk to people about how we can try to find some accommodation on this issue, and what would you try to do in Ohio to overcome what your legislature did?

DEWINE: Well, I was informed I always try to talk to people who are directly involved in something, and so I spent some time talking to families who had a child in that situation. And we’re not talking here about surgery. What we’re talking about is other medical help for that particular individual. And I felt that, ultimately, this is a family decision. You know, we talk a lot about respecting families, respecting their choices. It seemed to me that if the family wanted to have some assistance to that child and the children’s hospital or the other hospital that they were going to and the doctors felt that was appropriate, I didn’t think it was right for us to get involved in that. So, for me, it came down to parental choice.

ISAACSON: As a Republican governor, you were not particularly supportive of Donald Trump when he was running for the nomination. You said you’d support whoever the nominee is. So, now, if I may characterize it, you can push back, you’re a lukewarm supporter of Donald Trump because he’s become the nominee. But all these things have now happened, especially the Haitian immigrant thing. Are you, in some ways, just cooling on this notion of being for Donald Trump?

DEWINE: Well, I think my most important job, candidly, as governor of Ohio is to get things done. I am governor of Ohio. I’ve learned a long time ago, and I think it’s been reinforced in things I’ve seen over the years, that if you want to have impact on public policy you need to do it in one party or the other. And I’m a Republican. And so, you know, I think it’s a natural thing for me to support the nominee of my party.We have only two parties. So, that means that there’s disagreement within each party. That’s the way it always works. Some of the things you and I’ve talked about, we obviously have a disagreement with — I have a disagreement with President Trump. But, you know, I think if you talk to most people, I think most people do believe that, as far as the economy, he’s going to be much stronger and better for the economy. And there are other — you know, certainly other things that I do agree with him. But for me, it’s how can I be the most effective governor for the next two and a half years, two and a quarter years now and continue to get things done in the State of Ohio. Move Ohio forward on mental health. Move Ohio forward in how we deal with addiction. Move Ohio forward economically. And so, there are jobs for people. You know, we are actually creating more jobs in Ohio every day than we have people to fill them. And when I talked about legal immigrants are welcome in the State of Ohio in my inaugural address, I absolutely meant it. We welcome people who are here legally, not people who are here illegally, but people who are here legally, we welcome them. Because, frankly, we need them.

ISAACSON: You’ve always been somebody who’s found a way to find consensus. And that’s gone now in America. We’ve become much more partisan. Much more polarized. Anything comes up. Even hurricanes. And I know you sent some of the Ohio National Guard to help in Florida. But now, even that’s become politicized. Do you think — and what would it take for the fever to break and for us to become less poisonous and polarized in our politics?

DEWINE: Well, I’m not sure I can answer that. You know, it is a strange thing. We are certainly more polarized. We’re even more polarized where we live. Take the State of Ohio. Our urban communities are probably more Democrat than they’ve been in the past. Our rural ones certainly are much, much more Republican than they’ve ever been in the past. We’re almost being segregated by how we live, and I imagine that’s true in other states besides the State of Ohio. But on the other hand, when you talk to people and you talk about challenges, I think the majority of people want those of us in public office who are lucky enough to be in public office, I think it wants to get things done. And when you talk to them, they, many times, will tell me that they don’t like it, that there’s so much squabbling back and forth between the parties. But they expect us to actually get things done, compromise if we have to, don’t compromise your principles, no one should — have to compromise their principles, but try to come up with solutions that work. And I think there’s a real trend in this country, I hope and I believe it’s true, that people will demand more from people in public office in regard to just making things work. You really see it at the governor’s level. During COVID, I worked with Democrat governors. I worked with Republican governors. We all shared ideas. It didn’t matter which party someone belonged to. I’d pick up the phone or they’d pick up the phone and call me and say, hey, what’s working in your state in regard to thus and so? Governors have to make things happen. Governors are right there. They’re expected to get things done. So, I think in some sense, it’s easier maybe for governors to work in a bipartisan way. You know, I’ve challenged our legislature. Legislature is very Republican. But we certainly have Democrats in there. And I’ve challenged our legislature to, frankly, put more focus on mental health, put more focus on addiction problems. And they’ve come through. They have given me virtually everything I’ve asked for in the three budgets that I’ve presented so far. And while we may quarrel about other issues, on some of these things that I think are just fundamentally important, education of our kids using phonics to teach kids how to read, what’s called the science of reading. There’s been a broad consensus in Ohio among Democrats and Republicans to do all of those things. And so, I’m very optimistic about that.

ISAACSON: Governor Mike DeWine, thank you so much for joining us.

DEWINE: Great to be with you. Thank you.