How U.S. Tech Created China’s Police State

>>NEXT, TO SILICON VALLEY WHERE MAJORU.

S. TECH FIRMSARE URGED TO STOP EXPORTS TO THE CHINESEPOLICE.

WHAT SOME LAWMAKERS ARE ASKING THATTHEY APPEARBEFORE CONGRESS.

THIS COMES AFTERA RECENTASSOCIATED PRESS INVESTIGATIONREVEALED A DIRECT ROLE U. S. COMPANIESHAVE BUILD INBUILDINGCHINA'S MASSIVE POLITE STAGE.

>>BIANA, THANK YOU.

THANK YOU FOR SOMUCHFOR JOINING US.

YOU HAD A RECENT PIECETHAT UNCOVERED A LAYER OF SURVEILLANCETHAT'S GOING ONINCHINA THAT HAD BEEN PREVIOUSLY UNREPORTED,BUTYOU IN YOUR REPORT THROUGH DOCUMENTSTHAT WERE HANDEDOVER FROM A WHISTLEBLOWERFOUND CONNECTIONS TO AMERICAN COMPANIES.

WHAT DID YOU FIND?

>> YEAH.

BASICALLY WHAT WE FOUND IN THESE DOCUMENTSISTHAT, YOU KNOW, IN THE PAST THERE'SBEEN REPORTING ABOUT HOWAMERICAN COMPANIES HAVE PROVIDED COMPONENTSOR PRODUCTSTO THE CHINESE POLICE, BUT WHAT WEFOUND IS THAT ACTUALLY THEY AMERICANCOMPANIESNOT ONLY SOLD SOME GOODS TO THECHINESE POLICE, THEY ACTUALLY WERECOMPLICITIN DESIGNING THE ENTIRE SYSTEM FROMTHE TOP DOWNAND WORKING VERY CLOSELY WITH THECHINESE AUTHORITIESIN BUILDING THE SYSTEM.

AND SO WHENYOU LOOK AT, YOUKNOW, THE CHINESE POLICING APPARATUSAS IT IS TODAY, IMEAN IT WOULDN'T HAVE EXISTED WITHOUTTHEASSISTANCE OF AMERICAN COMPANIES.

FROM THE VERY BEGINNING, YOU KNOW,BACK 25 YEARS AGO AMERICAN COMPANIESWERE THERE RIGHT ATTHE START, DESIGNING AND BUILDINGTHESE SYSTEMSTO A LARGE DEGREE SO THAT THE CHINESEPOLICECOULD CARRY OUT, YOU KNOW,GOVERNMENT REPRESSION, CENSORSHIPAND CONTROL OF ITS OWN PEOPLE.

>>YOU WRITE, QUOTE, SOME DIRECTLY PITCHTHEIR TECH AS TOOLS FOR CHINESE POLICETO CONTROLCITIZENS, MARKETING MATERIAL FROMIBM,DELL, SISCOANDSEAGATETHEYSITEDCOMMUNIS T TACTICS.

WHAT IS THEGOLDEN SHIELD?

>> IT IS BASICALLYCHINA'S DIG TATPOLICING APPARATUS.

WHEN IT WAS STARTEDIT WAS A WAY OF KIND OFGETTING HOLD OF THE INTERNET.

THEINTERNET WAS THIS THING THATTHE CHINESE AUTHORITIES SAW AS BEINGUNCONTROLLABLE.

ANYONE COULDJUST GO LOG ON ON LINE AND SAYWHATEVER THEY WANTED.

THE CHINESEAUTHORITIES WANTED SOME WAY TO BEABLE TO CONTROLIT, AND FROM THAT PROJECT CAME THISWHOLEDIGITAL POLICING APPARATUS.

THEY SAWTHAT THECHINESE GOVERNMENT HAD THIS NEED FORDIGITAL CENSORSHIPAND SURVEILLANCE, AND THEY PITCHEDTHEIR PRODUCTS FORTHE GOLDEN SHIELD, FOR THE USE OFTHE CHINESE POLICE.

YOU KNOW, SOMEOF THECOMPANIES, THEY KIND OF VARY IN WHATTHEY WERE SELLING.

YOU KNOW, SOME COMPANIES SAY, OH,WE WERE JUSTONLY SELLING HARD DRIVES OR WE WEREJUST SELLINGKIND OF, YOU KNOW, GENERAL PURPOSEEQUIPMENT AND STUFF LIKE THAT.

BUTWHENYOU ACTUALLY LOOK AT THESE MARKETINGMATERIALS YOU FIND THAT A LOTOF THESE COMPANIES WERE VERY WELLAWARE OF WHAT THEIRPRODUCTS WERE GOING TO BE USED FOR.

SOME OFTHE MOST DAMNING MATERIAL WE FOUNDWASACTUALLY THESE CLASSIFIED GOVERNMENTBLUEPRINTS THAT SHOW THATIBM ACTUALLY WORKED WITH A CHINESEMILITARY ANDDEFENSE CONTRACTOR TO BUILD OUT THEGOLDEN SHIELD, PHASE TWO.

AND IN THOSEBLUEPRINTSYOU CAN ACTUALLY SEE THEM SAY THINGSLIKE,YOU KNOW, CONSOLIDATE COMMUNIST PARTYRULE.

YOU SEETHESE DOCK UMENTS, YOU SEE DATABASESTHAT SHOWTHEY'RE MONITORING PEOPLE LIKE, YOUKNOW, FOLLOWERSOF DISSIDENT RELIGIOUS GROUPS OR PEOPLEIN THE FARWESTERN REGIONOF XINJIANG WHERE MANY WESTERN GOVERNMENTSSAY THERE WASA GENOCIDE.

SO YOU SEE THESE DOCUMENTSAND YOU SEE THAT THESECOMPANIES WERE ACTUALLY QUITEACTIVE IN PITCHING THEIR GEAR TO THECHINESE POLICE, AND THIS ISSOMETHING THAT CONTINUES ALL THE WAYUP UNTILQUITE RECENTLY, EVEN THOUGH THERE'SBEENREPEATED WARNING ABOUT THE WAY THECHINESE POLICEWERE USING THIS KIND OF TECHNOLOGY.

SO, YOU KNOW, IF YOU DIG INTOTHESE MARKETING MATERIALS, SOMETIMESYOUSEE REFERENCES TO RACE.

YOUKNOW, ONE POST WE FOUND FROM DELLADVERTISEDALL RACE RECOGNITION WITH ONE OF THEIRFACIALRECOGNITIONPOWERED LAPTOPS.

THEY'RE TALKING ABOUTTHINGS LIKEBLACK LISTED INDIVIDUALS, KEY PERSONNEL,WHICH IS THIS TERM THAT THEY USE TOTRACK PEOPLE THAT THEY THINKARE POLITICALLY SENSITIVE.

SO, YOUKNOW,A LOT OF AMERICAN COMPANIES IN THEPAST HAVEBASICALLY CLAIMED IGNORANCE.

THEYSAY, OH, WE DON'TREALLY KNOW HOW OUR GEAR IS BEINGUSED.

WE DON'T REALLYHAVE ANY CONTROL OVER THAT.

BUT WHATOURARTICLE SHOWS IS THAT'S NOT THE CASE.

>> FOR THE RECORD, IBM SAYSIF OLDER SYSTEMS --BECAUSE SOME OFTHE CONTRACTS WEREBACK IN THE EARLY 2000s.

IF OLDERSYSTEMS ARE BEING ABUSED TODAY ANDIBM HAS NO KNOWLEDGE THAT THEYARE, THE MISUSE IS ENTIRELY OUTSIDEOF IBM'S CONTROL.

IT WAS NOT CONTEMPLATEDBY IBM DECADES AGO AND INNO WAY REFLECT ON IBM TODAY.

SO, YOU KNOW, IN YOUR STORY YOU SAIDTHAT THE XINJIANG GOVERNMENT HAS SAID,WE ARE USING THISBASICALLY, THESE TECHNOLOGIES TO PREVENTAND COMBAT TERRORISTS ANDCRIMINAL ACTIVITY.

THERE'S ABSOLUTELYNO SUCH THING AS LARGE-SCALE HUMANRIGHTS VIOLATIONS.

DOES THAT RINGTRUE CONSIDERING WHAT YOUHAVE SEEN ON THE GROUND?

>> ABSOLUTELYNOT.

I HAVE GONETO XINJIANG PERSONALLY, YOU KNOW,ALMOST HALF A DOZEN TIMES,AND I HAVE SEEN PEOPLE, YOU KNOW,BE ORDERED INTOLINES AND HAVING THEIR PHONES CHECKEDPERSONALLY.

I HAVE SEEN,YOU KNOW, PARTICULARLY MEMBERS OFTHE UYGHURETH MISSIONITY SINGLEDOUT WHILE MEMBERS OF ANOTHERETHNICITY ARE WAVEDTHROUGH CHECK POINTS.

SO THE CHINESE GOVERNMENT HAS OBVIOUSLYGONE ON A BIG PUSH TO PROMOTE WHATITIS DOING IN XINJIANG AS BEING ABOUTCOMBATTING TERRORISMBECAUSE THEY REALIZED IT WAS DAMAGINGTHEIR REPUTATION.

>>YOU KNOW, YOU HAVE INYOUR STORY THIS DESCRIPTION OF WHATIS CALLED BASICALLY ADIGITAL CAGE.

EXPLAIN TO OUR AUDIENCEWHAT THAT IS.

AND YOU PROFILE A FAMILY, BUT YOUSAY THAT THIS MIGHT EFFECT UP TO 100,000HUMAN BEINGSIN CHINA.

WHAT'S A DIGITAL CAGE?

HOWDOESIT WORK?

>> WHAT THE DIGITAL CAGEIS ISTHAT THERE'S THESE INVISIBLE DIGITALELECTRONIC SYSTEMS THAT ARE KIND OFIN PLACE THAT ARE ABLE TO MONITORAND INSOME CASES CONTROL THE MOVEMENT OFTHE CHINESE PEOPLE.

FOR THE VAST MAJORITYOF CHINESE PEOPLE THISIS NOT A PROBLEM BECAUSE, YOU KNOW,MOST PEOPLEARE NOT EXPLICITLY POLITICAL.

THEY'RENOT GOING ON THESTREETS OR, YOU KNOW, CHANTING ORDOING ANYTHING ALONGTHOSE LINES.

SO THESE SYSTEMS ARENOT AIMED NECESSARILY AT THEM.

THEMOMENT YOU DO SOMETHING THAT CAPTURESTHESTATE'S ATTENTION FOR WHATEVER REASON,YOU KNOW, YOU SAYSOMETHING AGAINST THE PARTY OR WHATEVERIT IS, THEN ALL OF ASUDDEN YOU MIGHT GET BLACK LISTED.

THEN IF YOU ARE BLACKLISTED, ALL OF A SUDDEN YOUR LIFECANTOTALLY CHANGE.

YOU SUDDENLY HAVEPOLICE FOLLOWING YOUAROUND OR YOU TRY TO BUY TRAIN TICKETSAND YOUARE INTERCEPTED ON THE OTHER SIDEWHERE THERE ARE OFFICERS WAITING FORYOU.

I KNOW THIS VERY WELL MYSELF BECAUSEAS AJOURNALIST, YOU KNOW, I'M ALSO APERSON THAT THE STATE DOES MONITORVERY CLOSELY.

OBVIOUSLY I'M NOTIN THE ME SITUATION BECAUSE THEY TREATMEWITH A DIFFERENCE KNOWING I'M A FOREIGNJOURNALIST.

BUT THERE'S ASENSE YOU ARE ALWAYS BEING WATCHEDAND AT ANY TIME THEAUTHORITIES COULD INTERVENE IN THESITUATION.

YOUKNOW, THIS KIND OF DIGITAL POLICINGISACTUALLY INVISIBLE TO MOST PEOPLE,AND THAT'S ACTUALLY WHAT MAKESIT SO INSIDIOUS .

IT IS REPRESSIONBUT ITIS INVISIBLE REPRESSION.

>> WHAT ARESOME OF THE HUMANCOSTS OF THIS?

I MEAN WHAT IS THECONSEQUENCE TO SOME OFTHE PEOPLE THAT YOU HAVE BEEN TALKINGTO IN YOUR STORIES?

>>THIS IS SOMETHING THAT I WOULD REALLYLIKE TO, YOU KNOW, IHOPE COMES ACROSS IN THE STORY,IS THAT THE SURVEILLANCE, IT MAY NOTBE PRISON, IT MAY NOT NECESSARILYBE TORTURE DIRECTLY,BUT IT IS A FORM OF PSYCHOLOGICALTORTURE.

THAT'S THEWAY A LOT OF MY INTERVIEWEES PHRASEDIT, RIGHT.

I MEAN JUST THE SENSEOF CONSTANTLY BEING WATCHED AND MONITORED,IT CAN TURN YOU INTOA SOCIAL PARIAH.

I MEAN, YOU KNOW,ONE OFTHE INTERVIEWEES IN OUR PIECEIS BASICALLY A PRISONER IN HIS OWNHOME.

HE IS BASICALLY STUCKAT HOME.

EVERY TIME HE GOES OUT THERE'SPOLICE OFFICERSFOLLOWING HIM.

THEY MIGHT TELL HIMNOT TO GO CERTAIN PLACES.

HIS OWN FAMILY, THEY'RE FREAKED OUTBY THEOFFICERS CONSTANTLY FOLLOWING THEM.

AND THEY'VE CUTOFF ALL CONTACT WITH HIM, RIGHT.

ANDSO, YOUKNOW, FOR PEOPLE WHO ARE TARGETS OFTHIS DIGITALPOLICING APPARATUS, I MEAN IT IS REAL--ITREALLY EXTRACTS A HUGE TOLL.

AND THEMOMENT YOU ENDUP CROSSING THE LINE IN ANY WAY, THENTHEYCAN COME AFTER YOU AND THEY CAN ARRESTYOU, AND THEN THEYHAVE ALL OF THIS INFORMATION THATTHEY'VECOMPILED ON YOU THAT LISTS OUT, YOUKNOW, WHAT YOU HAVEDONE WRONG, AND THEN THEY CAN ENDUP PUTTING YOU IN PRISON.

YOU KNOW, SOMETIMES THERE'S THINGSLIKE POLICEOFFICERS FOLLOWING YOU, AND THEN WHENYOU DO SOMETHING THEY DON'TLIKE, EVEN IF IT IS TECHNICALLY LEGAL,THEY END UPBEATINGYOU UP.

I MEAN THAT'S SOMETHING THATONEOF THE INTERVIEWEES IN OUR STORY FACED.

SHEWAS BEATEN BY BRICKS BY THE POLICEAND HEENDED UP IN THE HOSPITAL.

EVEN WHENHE WAS IN THE HOSPITAL, YOUKNOW, THERE WERE OFFICERS OUTSIDEHIS HOSPITAL WARD,INSIDE, HANGING A SURVEILLANCE CAMERAABOVEHIS FACE ON AN IV DRIP.

I MEAN ITISREALLY SURVEILLANCE TO AN EXTREME.

>> SO YOU POINT OUT INYOUR REPORTING THAT IT IS NOTJUST IBM THATSOLD THEIR SOFTWARE INTO CHINA INTHE FIRSTPLACE DECADES AGO.

YOU SAID, YOUKNOW, HERE IT SAID ORACLE, HAUL ETPACKARD, ARC GSI, SOLD HUNDREDSOF THOUSANDS WORTH OF GEOGRAPHIC ANDMAPPING EQUIPMENT AND SOFTWARE TOCHINESE POLICE.

NVIDIA AND INTEL,THE CHIP COMPANIES,PARTNERED WITH CHINESE SURVEILLANCECOMPANIES TO ADDAI CAPABILITIES TO CAMERAS USED FORVIDEO SURVEILLANCE.

OTHERS LIKE AMAZON WEB SERVICES, MICROSOFT,WESTERNDIGITAL, AND IT IS AN ENORMOUS LISTOF COMPANIES YOU ARE TALKING ABOUT.

BEFORE I LET YOU ANSWER HERE, YOUPOINT OUT THATORACLE,HEWLETT PACKARD AND BROADCOM WHICHACQUIREDPIVOTAL IN 2023, DID NOT COMMENT ONTHE RECORD.

HP, MOTOROLA AND WATIDIDNOT RESPOND.

IBM,DELL, CISCO AND AMAZON WEBSERVICES SAID THEY ADHERETO EXPORTCONTROL POLICIES.

ESRI DENIED INVOLVEMENT BUT DID NOTREPLY TOEXAMPLES.

MICROSOFT SAID IT FOUNDNO EVIDENCE ITKNOWINGLY SOLD TECHNOLOGY TO MILITARYPOLICE AS PARTSOF UPDATES TO THE GOLDEN SHIELD.

WHATKIND OFSOFTWARE DID THEY SELL?

ARE THEYPOSSIBLY MAINTAINING?

>> YEAH, SOMECOMPANIES, YOU KNOW, THEY'RE ACTUALLYACTIVELY MARKETING TO THE CHINESEPOLICE FOR THEPURPOSES OF THE CONTROL OF THEIR OWNPEOPLE, RIGHT.

SO THAT --YOU KNOW,INTHAT PARTICULAR CASE COMPANIES MIGHTSAY WE DIDN'TREALLY KNOW HOW OUR GEAR WAS BEINGUSED, BUTTHE MARKETING MATERIAL THERE SAYSOTHERWISE, RIGHT.

THETHING THAT THIS REALLY TELLS YOU ISTHAT THERE'S A REALLY WIDE VARIETYOF COMPANIES THAT ARE INVOLVED, RIGHT?

I MEAN THERMOFISCHER, FOR EXAMPLE, THEY'RE SELLINGDNATESTING KIDS AND THINGS LIKE THAT.

THEYWERE ACTUALLY EXPLICITLY MARKETINGTHE ABILITY OFTHEIR TEST KITS TO ALSO TESTMEMBERS OF CHINA'S UYGHURAND TIBETANETHNICITIES AS WELL, RIGHT.

SO WHATYOU SEE HERE IS YOU REALLY HAVE ABROAD ARRAY OF AMERICAN TECH COMPANIES.

THEY ALL KIND OF RUSHEDINTO CHINA, YOU KNOW, IN THE EARLY2000s BECAUSETHEY SAW CHINA AS BEING THIS HUGEUNTAPPED MARKET.

A LOT OF THEMIGNORED WARNING ABOUT HOW THAT TECHNOLOGYWAS BEING USED,AND THEN THEY END UP, YOUKNOW, SELLING, OFTEN KNOWINGLY, TOTHECHINESE POLICE FOR PURPOSES OFREPRESSION.

>> THERE'S A RESPONSEFROM NVIDIA THAT KIND OFBEGS A DIFFERENT QUESTION.

NVIDIASAYS,LOOK, IT DOES NOT MAKE SURVEILLANCESYSTEM OR SOFTWARE.

IT DOES NOT WORK WITH POLICE IN CHINA,DID NOT DESIGNTHE H220 CHIP FOR POLICE SURVEILLANCEAND RELATIONSHIPS WITH CHINESE SURVEILLANCEFIRMS NOLONGER CONTINUE.

THERE'S AN ARGUMENTTECH COMPANIESARE GOING TO MAKE THAT, LOOK, I'MSELLING A GENERAL USETECHNOLOGY, RIGHT.

A CHIP IS A CHIP.

YOU COULD PUT IT IN YOUR PHONE, INYOUR GRAPHICS PROCESSOR AND PLAY VIDEOGAMES FOR IT.

YOU COULD USE IT FOR AI IN LARK-LANGUAGEMODELS, YOU CAN'T PENALIZE US FORTHAT.

NVIDIA IS KIND OF A SPECIAL CASE WHERETHE U. S. GOVERNMENT IS GOING TO TAKE15% OF ANY CHIP SALES THAT IT MAKESTOCHINA, RIGHT?

WHAT'S THE DANGER HERE?

>>YEAH, SO NVIDIA IS A REALLYINTERESTING CASE AS YOU POINT OUT,BECAUSE CHIP COMPANIES LIKENVIDIA AND INTEL WILL MAKE THE ARGUMENTTHAT THEY REALLY CAN'TCONTROL WHERE THEIR CHIPS GO.

THETHING ABOUT THATTHOUGH IS THAT WE FOUND EVIDENCE THATBOTHNVIDIA AND INTEL ACTIVELY PARTNEREDWITHCHINESE SURVEILLANCE COMPANIES FORPOLICING APPLICATIONS.

AND IN NVIDIA'SCASE THEYACTUALLY WORKED WITH A CHINESE POLICERESEARCH INSTITUTE.

YOU KNOW, THEY WERE TESTINGFACIAL RECOGNITION SOFTWARE WITHNVIDIA CHIPS.

AND SO WHAT YOU ARESEEING HERE IS THAT THESE COMPANIESAREON THE WANT HAND SAYING THEY'RE NOTEXPLICITLY BEING DESIGNED FOR THEPURPOSESOF SURVEILLANCE, BUT THEY'RE VERYMUCHASSISTING COMPANIES IN FIGURING OUTHOW THEIR CHIPS CANBE USED FOR SURVEILLANCE APPLICATIONS.

AND SO, YOU KNOW, WE GRILLED THEMABOUT IT.

I MEANWE POINTED TO SPECIFIC RELATIONSHIPSTHAT THEYHAD WITH SPECIFIC CHINESE COMPANIES.

IN MANY OF THE CASES THEY KIND OFDISMISSED THEM SAYING, OH,YOU KNOW, THAT WAS IN THE PAST.

AFTERTHE U. S. GOVERNMENT SANCTIONED THOSE CHINESECOMPANIES WE NO LONGER HAVE ANY BUSINESSTIES WITH THEM, BUT SOMEPARTNERSHIPS WITH OTHER COMPANIESCONTINUE.

I MEAN WE SAW IN THE CASEOF NVIDIA THAT THEY ACTUALLYTOUTED HOW TWO CHINESE COMPANIES WHODO SELLTO CHINESE POLICE WEREUSING NVIDIA CHIPS.

AND SO THAT REALLYBEGS THEQUESTION, I MEAN ARE THEY JUST ADHERINGTO THE LETTER OF THE LAW, NOT THESPIRIT OF IT?

THEY SAY, YOU KNOW, ALL THE AMERICANCOMPANIES THAT WE SPOKETO SAY THAT THEY COMPLY WITH U. S. EXPORT CONTROLS, BUT WHAT WE'RE SEEINGIS THAT THEY'RE REALLY KINDOF WALKING RIGHT UP TO THE LINE OFWHAT IS PERMISSIBLE.

WE DID NOT FIND, YOU KNOW, HARD EVIDENCEOFVIOLATION OF EXPORT CONTROLS.

EXPORTCONTROLSARE VERY COMPLICATED, BUT IN A LOTOF THESE CASES WHATTHESE COMPANIES ARE DOING IS THATTHEY'REACTIVELY WORKING WITH CHINESE SURVEILLANCECOMPANIES SO LONGAS THEY'RE NOT BEING SANCTIONED.

ANDSO, YOU KNOW, EVENTHOUGH THESE CHIPS ARE NOT BEING DESIGNEDFOR THE PURPOSES OFSURVEILLANCE, THEY STILL VERY MUCHEND UP INSURVEILLANCE APPLICATIONS, AND WITHTHEASSISTANCE OF THESE CHIP COMPANIES.

>> SINCE YOU HAVE PUBLISHED YOURREPORT, SENATORS LIKE JOSH HAWLEYFROM MISSOURISAID, LOOK, MAYBE THESE PEOPLE, THESECOMPANIES NEED TOBE SUMMONED IN FRONT OF CONGRESS BECAUSETHERE SEEMED TO BEFAIRLY SIZABLE LOOPHOLES INSIDE THEEXISTING EXPORT LAWSTHAT ENABLED THIS TO HAPPEN.

THIS,YOU KNOW, FROMWHAT YOU'RE SHOWING HERE IS THAT ITIS NOTJUST KIND OF THE ACTIVISTS THAT ARECOMPLAINING AND IT IS NOT JUSTDEMOCRATS, BUT THERE SEEMS TO BE SOMEKIND OF A BIPARTISAN CONSENSUSTHAT THIS KIND OFBEHAVIOR NEEDS TO BE REGULATED.

>>ABSOLUTELY.

YOU KNOW, THIS HASBEEN AN ISSUE FOR DECADES, RIGHT?

THERE'S BEEN CONGRESSIONAL HEARINGSABOUT THIS SINCE THEMID 2000s, BUT EVERY TIME, YOUKNOW, MEMBERS OF CONGRESS ORPEOPLE IN THE U. S. GOVERNMENT HAVETRIED TO DO SOMETHINGABOUT THIS TO CLOSE THOSE LOOPHOLESTHERE'SBEEN PUSH BACK FROM AMERICAN TECHCOMPANIES, YOU KNOW.

SO THEYSPEND A LOT OF MONEY LOBBYING ON THEISSUE, ENSURINGTHAT BILLS THAT COULD POTENTIALLYCLOSETHE LOOPHOLE NEVER COME TO A VOTE.

YOU KNOW, YOUHAVE ALL OF THESEBUREAUCRATIC PROCEDURES.

THE DEPARTMENTOF COMMERCE IS RESPONSIBLE FOR EXPORTCONTROLS,AND THEY'VE ACTUALLY TRIED NUMEROUSTIMES TO CLOSE SOME OFTHESE LOOPHOLES BUT THEY HAVE ALWAYSENDED UP RUNNINGOUT OF TIME AND FACING OPPOSITIONBEFORE THEY'RE ACTUALLY ABLETO PUT THROUGH THOSE CHANGES.

AND SO THIS HAS BEEN A LONGSTANDINGISSUE, ABSOLUTELY A BIPARTISAN ONE.

>> IT IS WORTH NOTING THE WHITE HOUSEANDTHE DEPARTMENT OF COMMERCE, YOU KNOW,DID NOT RESPOND TOYOUR REQUEST FOR COMMENT IN THIS STORY.

ONE OTHER IDEA THAT WAS FASCINATINGIN YOUR PIECEIS THAT RIGHT NOW YOUR PIECE FOCUSESON THE INFLUENCE THAT AMERICAN TECHNOLOGYCOMPANIES HAD ON THE SURVEILLANCETHAT'S HAPPENING IN THE CHINESE STATEAND THAT CHINESE COMPANIES COULD HAVEADVANCED THATTECHNOLOGY FURTHER.

BUT WHAT IS ALSOINTERESTING IS THAT YOU ALSO POINTOUTTHAT, LOOK, THIS TYPE OF SURVEILLANCEISBEING USED WELL BEYOND CHINA.

THAT THERE IS FACIAL RECOGNITION SOFTWARETHAT'S BEING USED, WHETHER ITIS ON THE SOUTHERN BORDER OF THE UNITEDSTATESOR IN GAZA BY ISRAEL, RIGHT?

>> ABSOLUTELY.

I MEANONE OF THE THINGS THAT WE REALLY WANTEDTO EMPHASIZEIN WRITING THIS REPORT IS THAT THISIS NOT JUST A CHINA PROBLEM.

I THINKA LOT OF PEOPLETEND TO THINK OF, YOU KNOW, CHINAAS BEING THIS KINDOF DIGITAL TOTALITARIAN STATE.

THERE'SA LOT OF DISCOURSE ABOUT THAT, RIGHT?

BUT IT IS NOT JUST ACHINA ISSUE.

IN FACT, I THINK IT ISQUITE TELLING THAT ITWAS AMERICAN COMPANIES THAT BROUGHTA LOT OF THIS TECHNOLOGYTO CHINA BECAUSE THAT MEANS THAT ITIS ALSO AN AMERICAN PROBLEM,AND THAT'S SOMETHING THAT ONE OF OURINTERVIEWEESACTUALLY SAID WHEN SHE WAS SPEAKINGWITH US.

SHE SAID, YOU KNOW,RIGHT NOW IT MIGHT BE US CHINESE THATARE SUFFERINGBUT SOONER OR LATER AMERICANS ANDPEOPLE FROM OTHER COUNTRIES WILLSUFFER THE CONSEQUENCES AS WELL.

>>INVESTIGATIVEREPORTER WITHTHE ASSOCIATED PRESS, DICK KING, THANKYOUFOR JOINING US.

>> THANK YOU FOR HAVINGUS.