Is Marriage the Key to Happiness and Wealth? One Sociologist Says Yes.

BIANNA GOLODRYGA, SENIOR GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANALYST: Well, we turn to what role does marriage play in an American society? Well, our next guest says it is essential in maintaining happiness and prosperity. “Get Married,” That is the advice of sociology professor and director of the National Marriage Project Brad Wilcox. And he joins Michel Martin to discuss why he thinks it’s so important for policymakers to continue backing this 4,000-year-old institution as it becomes less common in our modern world.

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MICHEL MARTIN, CONTRIBUTOR: Professor Brad Wilcox, thank you so much for joining us.

BRAD WILCOX, PROFESSOR OF SOCIOLOGY, UNIVERSITY OF VIRGINIA AND AUTHOR, “GET MARRIED”: Great to be here with you, Michel.

MARTIN: Your new book is called “Get Married: Why Americans Must Defy the Elites, Forge Strong Families, and Save Civilization.” No big thing right there. So, why should people get married? Well, really the question is, like, why you’re very clear about your prescription here? Why?

WILCOX: Well, you know, we’ve been hearing a lot of voices lately, Michel, both kind of from the mainstream left and now from the online right, kind of encouraging young adults to steer clear of marriage, even steer clear of family life, you know, all the sacrifices, stresses, you know, difficulties that follow from marriage and family are kind of being, you know, put into the foreground of our conversation, but the data tell a very different story. And so, the book is about in part kind of educating adults today and adults more generally about kind of all the benefits that flow from marriage, including, generally speaking, more prosperity and also, generally speaking, you know, more happiness. That’s a big part of the story that’s coming in the book.

MARTIN: What made you think about marriage as not just a sort of a thing that has always existed but as something that we need to really think about, not just from a personal standpoint, from a policy standpoint? How’d you get started with that?

WILCOX: Yes, I was raised by a single mom in Connecticut, you know, back in the ’70s and ’80s and was surrounded by a lot of other kids, you know, who were raised by single parents or his parents got divorced. And so, that’s kind of part of my — you know, my life. And then, when I went to college, just had kind of this insight that — you know, that dads were important and that, you know, in general, the way that societies tend to connect dads to their kids was through marriage. So, my kind of interest in this topic was, in part, given my own personal experience as a child growing up without a father, you know, in my own life. And as I’ve been kind of doing this work, though, more recent, I begun to sort of focus more on adults and less on kids, because as I talked to students at the University of Virginia, just getting a lot of sorts of expressions of concern, particularly from younger women about their prospects for dating, finding guys who are, you know, worthy of commitment, interested in commitment, and they’re also kind of beginning to worry about their prospects for marriage. So, this book focuses much more on kind of the benefits of marriage for adults, where my previous work focused more on sort of marriage and the kids’ story.

MARTIN: One of the points that you make in the book is that for the first time in this country’s history, less than half of American adults are married. So, let’s talk about that. You know, why do you think that is?

WILCOX: Well, I think there are a couple of big factors that are kind of influencing that this retreat from marriage and American life. So, one of them is that we are actually a much more affluent society than we were in, you know, previous generations. And so, people depend less practically, economically on marriage. And then when they once did, we are a more secular society too. And because religion tends to invest marriage with a lot more meaning and purpose than other more secular institutions, that’s part of the story. We’re more individualistic. We tend to prioritize our freedom and our choices, and that’s part of the story, But I would also kind of point the finger to it shifts in the economy. We’ve seen kind of our economy shift in ways that have disadvantaged men who don’t have college degrees. They’re much less likely to be working on a full-time basis today than say 40 years ago. And because it’s still the case that women like to marry guys who have a decent job, the fact that a lot of men are seeing their economic fortunes kind of decline in this era is one factor that also explains, you know, why I think marriage is in retreat. And then, finally, I would say, in terms of public policies, a lot of our policies aren’t particularly helpful. We have marriage penalties, for instance, in programs like Medicaid that are also part and parcel of, you know, why we’re seeing marriage, particularly in working-class communities now, I think, is also retreating as well. So, there are a lot of cultural and economic factors that are kind of acting in concert, albeit unintentionally to make marriage less central to our society.

MARTIN: So, give it to us straight here. Why should people get married?

WILCOX: The big picture here, right, is Aristotle said, we’re social animals, you know, that was his term. And I think he was right. So, I mean, a lot of people think what matters is money or your work or your — you know, your status or something like that. And what I would say, no, we’re social animals and our friendships and especially our family relations, especially our marriages end up being especially important for us and kind of giving our lives direction, meaning, purpose, and even more kind of concrete. The opportunities both to receive care. But even more important, is true also for men, I would say, opportunities to care for others, you know, to care for your spouse and often to care for kids. And when we have these, you know, relationships of care and concern that are kind of driving and animating our lives, we’re just — we’re better off. We’re — again, we’re less lonely. We report their lives are more meaningful. We’re generally happier. And then, also on the economic side, there’s just no question that both men and women are financially better off. And again, this goes against, unfortunately, you know, a lot of contemporary media commentary. There was a piece in “Bloomberg” that said that, “Women who stay single are getting richer.” And they’re relying upon a study of just single adults. So, I don’t know what was happening there. But there’s a lot of misinformation out there. Unfortunately, today, when it comes to marriage, a lot of young adults, particularly younger women today, think that marriage and motherhood are going to make them less happy. But the data point, Michel, in a very different direction that is that for most women and most men, both marriage and parenthood are linked to better outcomes emotionally. And then financially, there’s just no question that stably married women and men are in a much better place, even controlling for their background, you know, characteristics, than their peers who are never married or who are divorced and not remarried.

MARTIN: One of the points that you make in the book is that a lot of American elites, like well-educated people, people with advanced degrees and a lot of money, or people with college degrees or more — and money tend to, what you say, they talk left and live right and — or walk right, which is to say that people who are in this sort of positions of authority live these traditionalist values, but they don’t stand up for them.

WILCOX: Right.

MARTIN: And you see quite annoyed about that. And why is that?

WILCOX: Yes. I’m kind of a passionate about this because I think that they are not using their authority to influence their power to kind of advance the common good. And we can obviously talk about that in terms of a variety of topics, like you mentioned the environment, but when it comes to marriage and family, I think it’s clearly the case that our kids, our adults, and our communities are more likely to be flourishing when they are anchored in strong and stable marriages. And so, our elites are generally benefiting themselves personally, they, their spouse, their kids, and their neighborhoods, even from stable marriages. I mean, my neighborhood is a neighborhood that’s dominated by stably married folks, you know, who are doing well professionally in Charlottesville. And yet, the kinds of people who are in my neighborhood, you know, are not likely in public to advocate for marriage or advocate for the importance of stable families as — you know, as professors or as school superintendents or as executives or as journalists.

MARTIN: Well, why should they? Why should — what should they be doing that they’re not doing? In your view.

WILCOX: Yes. So, I think, for instance, you know, when it comes to journalism, we’ve talked briefly about this fact. But, you know, there was this, you know, an article in “The New York Times,” you know, not too long ago, it said, married motherhood in America is a game no one wins. OK. And this was an article that was frankly, you know, not really based any strong kind of empirical research and yet, you know, prominent placement in “The New York Times.” I mentioned the “Bloomberg” piece that was wrong. So, people are getting these messages, for instance, from, you know, some journalistic outlets that are — you know, that are not telling them the truth and I think can kind of lead them down, you know, the wrong path, so to speak.

MARTIN: One of the arguments that you make in the book is that people have it backwards. They think that people who are more socially adept and who are happier to begin with are more likely to be married. And — or who have more money, frankly.

WILCOX: Right.

MARTIN: And you say it’s actually the other way, that being married means you’re more likely to be socially adept and happier and to get — have more money. So, talk about it. I mean, it’s not as simple as I’m making it, but what is that relationship? Because you can see where a lot of people would say, listen, certain groups in this society have been historically disadvantaged for centuries. Like African-Americans as a group have a low marriage rate relative to other groups. So, why isn’t it the economics?

WILCOX: Well, I do think that the economy is part and parcel of the story playing out. And I do — you know, I mentioned obviously earlier that we’re seeing particularly working-class and poor men who are struggling more when it comes to getting married and also staying married as well. So, there’s certainly an economic dimension to what’s happened to marriage in America. So, it is the case that working-class and poor Americans have been especially hit hard by both the economic shifts we’ve been touching on a little bit and the broader cultural shifts. But I think it’s also the case too, that there are, you know, a lot of cultural factors that have made marriage less important and less attainable too for folks. But your question was really about this issue of kind of, is it marriage that sort of makes the man and the woman, or is it certain kinds of men and women who are more likely to select into marriage?

MARTIN: Yes.

WILCOX: And I think it’s both, you know. It’s certainly a case, and I talk about in the book, the sort of the masters of marriage are Asian-Americans, religious Americans, conservative Americans, and college educated Americans. They’re the ones who today are more likely to get married in the first place and to be either happily or stably married in the second place. There is an economic piece, it’s also kind of just an endowment story where certain kinds of people have endowments that make them more likely to flourish in relationships and in life more generally. But even when you kind of control for those factors, you still see that there is a way in which people who are married are more likely to be flourishing net of their background characteristics. So, I can — you know, I can basically point out that African-Americans, for instance, who are married are markedly happier and better off, you know, than their African-American peers who are not married. So, I would say it’s both a selection story to some extent, but also in which marriage itself changes people on average for the better.

MARTIN: You seem so irritated with people that you call elites for not espousing the values of marriage. It’s almost like you see it as like a failing of leadership on their part. But I wonder, is it more a matter of courtesy that they don’t want other people who have not experienced this to feel bad?

WILCOX: That’s a fair point, Michel. But what I want to suggest to you is that we’re now in a culture where it’s extremely hard for our young adults to navigate relationships successfully and to find a spouse successfully, and by kind of, you know, not prioritizing in some greater way than we are currently the value of marriage and also the kinds of virtues that would help people become better boyfriends and girlfriends and then spouses down the road, you know, it’s — we’re making it harder for them to kind of realize this, from my perspective, fundamental good. So, you know, we have new work from Jonathan Rothwell at Brookings, and he’s looking at deaths of despair across America and finds that from a regional perspective, you know, one of the top factors explains why some people are likely to end up, you know, dying in these regions across America is they’re not married. We see another study from Chicago that tells us that the number one factor that explains why happiness in America is down is because fewer Americans are married. We know from Mike Chey’s (ph) work that the top factor predicting mobility for poor kids is the share of kids being raised in a community in two-parent families. So, I’m just saying like this is kind of a — you know, a fundamental value and we don’t have to be kind of approaching marriage and family in a kind of scolding way. But I think we can and should kind of paint a — not just a rosy picture, so much as, I think, a true picture of the value of marriage for most people and to help people kind of realize, you know, their dreams of having a good marriage.

MARTIN: I do want to say something about same sex relationships, because you do speak about this in the book. You say that the reason you don’t talk more about same sex marriage per se is that you don’t think the sample size is large enough to draw conclusions.

WILCOX: We’re looking at kind of — you know, in my sample at about 2,000 couples. And, you know, when you kind of — they’re less than 1 percent or 1 percent depending upon the survey of married couples who are same sex. And so, I didn’t have enough couples to look at to sort of draw conclusions about in the book.

MARTIN: One of the other points you make in the book is that the marriage rate has fallen, yes. But you also say that there has been a 40 percent decline in the divorce rate since 1980. How do you understand that?

WILCOX: So, there’s sort of good news and bad news in the book. And so, the bad news is I’m saying is a kind of closing of the American heart unfolding where fewer adults are dating, you know, marrying and having children. So, fewer adults are kind of getting in the family way, so to speak. But that also means that the folks who are getting married, having kids are more selective, like we’ve talked about before. They’re more educated, relatively. They’re more affluent, relatively. They’re more religious as well, typically. And so, that’s, I think, translating in part to less divorce and more stable families for kids.

MARTIN: You know, for centuries, the onus of keeping marriages together has been on women, partly because women didn’t have independent sources of income. And there was a powerful incentive for women to stay in relationships that were unhealthy, emotionally unhealthy, or physically abusive, if they were.

WILCOX: Right.

MARTIN: What do we do differently so that that isn’t the case?

WILCOX: Yes. And so, I think that the sort of response there basically is to sort of acknowledge that there have been big mistakes made in the past, but we’re kind of in a new moment today where a lot of young men and young women as well are expressing real concerns about their inability to enter into relationships and to sort of see marriage as, you know, a real option for them. And I talked about some of these women in my book. You know, women who are in their 30s and they’re talking about how hard it is to find a guy who is seems like he’s interested in a long-term commitment. And they’re worried about their prospects, not just for marriage, but for motherhood as well. And so, yes, we’ve made mistakes in the past, but I think the new challenges facing us are more about not giving enough access to marriage for not just men, but also for women. And that’s why I think talking more about marriage and being more honest about its value in high school, in college and in the pop culture, social media would be helpful. And one thing that I talk about with one of the respondents in my book is she kind of talks about how in her 20s, she was sort of encouraged to sort of sideline love and marriage and focus just on her career. Now, that she’s 34, has no prospects for a husband and kids, she’s like, I wish someone had told me basically differently, had encouraged me a decade ago to be a lot more intentional about finding a spouse. And so, that’s kind of message that I want to offer to the to the broader population, you know.

MARTIN: Let’s talk about policy as we sort of — what would policy — a pro-marriage policies look like?

WILCOX: So, in my book, I talk about a couple of things. One is in kind of getting rid of the marriage penalty that affects a lot of working-class couples now, especially in things like Medicaid, for instance. So, what a lot of couples that I spoke to reported is that they had make a choice between kind of getting married and keeping the mom and the kids on Medicaid, to kind of just keep their finances in good order. So, that’s an example that we could address in public policy. I think talking about what’s called the success sequence in public schools, this is this idea that if you get at least a high school degree, you work full-time and get married before having kids, you’re more likely to be flourishing financially. I think also trying to address the fact that a lot of guys who are not on that more college track are floundering today in our high schools and doing more to kind of beef up, you know, vocational education high school, so they have a better shot at good jobs that are more likely to endow them with a sense of confidence, but also going to make them more marriageable.

MARTIN: What response are you getting to the book? It’s been out for a little bit now.

WILCOX: I’m struck by how generally positive the media coverage has been. I think there’s an openness. There’s a recognition too that marriage is in trouble in terms of just kind of a trajectory. And so, maybe that’s, I think, making people across the spectrum rethink some of their — you know, their assumptions or commitments. So, that’s good. But it’s also the case, in all honesty, if you read the comments in the two recent “New York Times” pieces on my work, a lot of commentators, particularly women, are, you know, talking down marriage and they’re expressing a lot of concerns about how women are treated in marriage and they think it’s not a good deal for them.

MARTIN: What do you say to them?

WILCOX: Obviously, there are plenty of women who have had a terrible experience with love and marriage and I don’t want to kind of deny or discount that reality. If I was to go on to YouTube, I can get literally and have gotten literally tens of thousands of comments from men that are extremely negative about women. So, I’m just saying that there’s a lot of anger out there on the part of both, you know, women and men about the opposite sex. And so, we need to think about ways to kind of try to bring us back together, to bridge the gender divide, if you will, and that’s part of what my book is aiming to do.

MARTIN: Brad Wilcox, thanks so much for talking with us.

WILCOX: Thanks, Michel. It’s been a pleasure.